Suppressors Spec Forces Tomahawk

Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

Tomahawks are cool and a part of our American Heritage.

I have only been in contact with one SF Unit in an operational role. I didn't see any tomahawks. Of course I didn't think to ask at the time, since I was more concerned about not getting shot by our Nigerian "friends". Good times were had by all.
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

I got to see one of these the other day. What impressed me was it's size. Nice, small, and the right size to put on a pack or even a chest rig.

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Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

I was recently issued an Ontario knife company hatchet I'll add some pictures tomorrow. I don't know why they gave them to us. Were gonna do some CSAR missions so i think they expect us to carry them. As far as useful in combat...
You would have to have it ready and already deployed to actually be able to use it in CQB.
this is the one i was issued in the 82nd ABN pathfinder co.
http://www.ontarioknife.com/images/adventure/images/images/images/images/SP16-SPAX-web.jpg
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RX7-2nr</div><div class="ubbcode-body">im gearing up for production on the Spec Forces Tactical Boomerang as we speak. </div></div>

Count me in,

Now let's talk about making the training video..... LOL
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

Yes these are issued. I was told the hole in the middle is to open a humvee door if the handle is ripped off. Not sure why the military is issuing these out. A real axe works a lot faster on a door.




As far as the tomohawks are concerned; they are a great tool all around. But I think quite a few of us buy them because they watched "Last Of the Mohicans" lol.

Come out of the dream world and join the military. I need more bodies in the field to clear tunnel's, trenches and room's.

Lw
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RUM Lover</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just out of curosity, why would packing a tomahawk be usefull or pratical?</div></div>
Because every time I light it up and pass it, I start a ceremony that will always be forgotten...
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

Im waiting on my new hawk, its the original multi tool, One side is the ax, the other has optional pipe bowl, spike or hammer poll. Which reminds me, I need to give the maker a call and find out where he stands on it
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

Ryan is a great guy and he has worked hard at his trade.

From the files..

If anybody has an interest, I can post one of the first hawks off the line and a good deal more.

HAWK.jpg


==============================================================

LOCAL TOMAHAWKS GO TO TROOPS
BY JAN GALLETTA, STAFF WRITER
Chattanooga, TN, Sunday, October 7, 2001 - If members of America's military face combat in Afghanistan, some of them may be toting tomahawks custom-made by Ryan Johnson of Chattanooga.

The 28-year-old mechanical engineer and bladesmith recently received an online order from a group of Special Forces personnel to create a new kind of tactical ax "that will punch through Kevlar helmets," he said.
"They had been in the Persian Gulf but are now on the move, like all our military guys from Guam to Alaska," Mr. Johnson said. "I guarantee, they'll be carrying these tomahawks with them in the field."
Col. Stephen Bucci agreed. Stationed at the Pentagon as the personal assistant to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, he is also a member of the Special Forces and a customer of Mr. Johnson.
"Special Forces have always carried tomahawks as the sidearm of choice," Col. Bucci said in a telephone interview. "I'm guessing that any men in the field who see those guys carrying Ryan's tomahawks are going to want one, too. The craftsmanship is fantastic."
Mr. Johnson said the Special Forces customers had expressed their need for a weapon that would pierce the vests and body armor typically worn "by a lot of people they're coming across, like guards or sentries. They are calling the ax 'The Shamal,' which means 'hot desert wind,'" he said.
It's a common practice for American servicemen to supplement government-issued gear with such items for personal use, according to Col. Bucci.
"They're only authorized to use government-issue weapons. But this ax falls into the same category as a knife that's intended for personal use," he said.
A longtime history buff who began a blacksmithing apprenticeship when he was only 12, Mr. Johnson has been crafting frontier-era knives and cutting tools for more than a decade. He is one of more than 70 members in a local blacksmith club.
Since opening his R.M.J. Forge in Hixson two years ago, he said he has specialized in tomahawks that he sells exclusively on the Internet. Buyers have ranged from a Hong Kong aficionado of Lewis and Clark lore to racers in the Alaskan Iditarod and California camping enthusiasts.
Col. Bucci said he was just completing a yearlong assignment in Bosnia as a defense department attache to the American embassy when he saw Mr. Johnson's Web site and ordered a Spanish Cross tomahawk from the Chattanooga blacksmith.
"I collect knives and other things like that, and he had the particular model of tomahawk that I wanted," the colonel said.
"But because the circumstances made it so hard for us to get mail back and forth, Ryan just took me at my word that the check would come after I left Bosnia."
When Mr. Johnson learned that his handiwork -- a mid-19th-century pipe-style hand ax with a curly maple handle, iron blade and spring-steel cutting edge -- was hanging on Pentagon walls, he asked Col. Bucci to send him a photograph.
This week, the picture arrived with a timely letter from the colonel, who said his office isn't in the part of the Pentagon damaged in the Sept. 11 attack. "It's on the other side of the building, the side they (terrorists) really wanted to hit," he said.
In his letter to Mr. Johnson, Col. Bucci wrote that "when we watched the two airplanes hit the WTC (World Trade Center) on TV and realized it was a planned event, the vice admiral (three star) and I talked about what needed to be done.
"He said, 'It will take more than Tomahawk cruise missiles to beat these guys. It will take tomahawks like yours at the ends of the arms of soldiers.'
"Less than 10 minutes later, Flight 11 hit the (Pentagon) building."
Col. Bucci's letter continued, "My Spanish Cross Hawk has become a symbol of sorts. It is an emblem of the resolve we have to see 'Enduring Freedom' through to its conclusion."
Mr. Johnson said most of the tomahawks he makes are 18 to 20 inches long and weigh about 2 pounds. They vary in price from $150 to $1,200, with factors such as the amount of detail partly determining the cost, according to the blacksmith.
He said authentically reproducing a vintage tomahawk, such as the smokeable pipe hawks that expeditioners Lewis and Clark traded for corn, is an expensive undertaking. So is making an ax with a blade of multilayered, laminated Damascus steel, Mr. Johnson said.
Sometimes he designs machines to do laser-cutting duty and other precision tasks, a process that can send up the price but also allows for a high volume of replication, he said.
The machines Mr. Johnson fabricated to manufacture the Shamal tomahawks will make it possible for him to fill large orders for the axes, should demand increase, he said.
Col. Bucci said he wouldn't be surprised if Mr. Johnson finds himself on the cutting edge of an emerging market for age-old armaments.
"With the kind of conflict it looks like we may be having, it doesn't surprise me that the idea of carrying a tomahawk like that is being resurrected," he said.

=================================================================

Lethal Weapon
Historic Tomahawk Returns to the Battlefield with Some U.S. Troops

By David Tillett

April 15— U.S. forces are using two types of tomahawks in Iraq: one, a high-tech cruise missile — the other, a bit more like the hatchet Mel Gibson used in the movie The Patriot.

Members of Air Force security groups, Army Rangers and special forces are some of the U.S. troops who have chosen to add tomahawks to their basic gear.

So why would a member of today's armed services want a relic of the American frontier? According to one modern tomahawk manufacturer, the reasons soldiers carried them in the Revolutionary War are still valid today — and it all comes down to science.

"The physics behind it make it an appropriate choice for any kind of battlefield conditions," said Ryan Johnson, owner of RMJ Forge.

"You take a knife, a knife has a certain amount of leverage that's given to you. The tomahawk can be used like a knife, but you also have that 18 inches of handle that gives you a huge amount of difference in power as far as the power of the cutting stroke. It's much more practical as a field tool because you can again use it like a knife or you can use it like an ax."

Tomahawks Also Used in Not-So-Distant History

The tomahawk was commonly carried by soldiers even prior to the Revolutionary War, but its use in modern times is not unprecedented.

According to Johnson, soldiers have used tomahawks in most of the major wars the United States has fought.

"In World War II, there were not only Native Americans using them, but also just your regular GI. A lot of these people were just carrying stuff from home, stuff that they used on the farm," Johnson said.

He added that an uncle who had served in the Korean War told him soldiers would take the standard hatchet that they were issued and grind the back down into a spike to make a "fighting hatchet."

World War II Marine veteran Peter LaGana was a pioneer in the modern military use of tomahawks. He created an updated tomahawk design and, from 1966 to 1970, sold about 4,000 of them to members of the armed forces serving in Vietnam before closing down his company.

From top right to lower left: American Tomahawk Co. founder Peter LaGana's original 1966 design for the "Vietnam Tomahawk," with drop-forged head and hickory handle; today's Vietnam Tactical Tomahawk with synthetic handle; LaGana Titanium Tactical Tomahawk. (www.americantomahawk.com)
While tomahawks have historically been made in a variety of patterns, LaGana chose a "spike hawk" design — which has the cutting blade common to hatchets, but a sturdy penetrating spike on the opposite side.

In November 2000, professional knife and tomahawk thrower Andy Prisco approached LaGana and got his approval to license his design and restart the defunct firm, the American Tomahawk Co. — which Prisco did in January 2001.

Prisco's revitalized firm sells several different tomahawk designs, mainly to sportsmen and collectors. But he said that among members of the military, the top-selling product is the Vietnam Tactical Tomahawk, which uses LaGana's original head design and an updated synthetic handle. LaGana died in 2002 after a battle with cancer.

Johnson, who had a childhood interest in historical weapons, says he began hand-forging tomahawks at age 12. It became a way of life for him, as he put himself through college selling hand-forged tomahawks and knives, and made it his full-time occupation once he graduated.

RMJ Forge's version of a modern tactical tomahawk, the Eagle Talon Special Forces Tomahawk. (www.rmjforge.com)
Originally, most of his customers were period re-enactors or people interested in early American history. He first made tomahawks specifically for members of the military in the spring of 2001.

The effort was sparked by a request from a friend in an Air Force security group who sent him an e-mail with a picture of an 18th-century spike tomahawk and asked if he could make an updated tactical version. Johnson's modern tomahawk is made from a single piece of steel, with synthetic scales on the grip.

It wasn't until after the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks and the United States began fighting in Afghanistan that he started making them in quantity. In fact, it dramatically changed the way he does business — Johnson says his time is now almost exclusively devoted to producing the modern tomahawks for military customers, and he makes only a few historical tomahawks a month.

While these modern tomahawks do everything their frontier counterparts did, their makers say theirs are uniquely suited to challenges U.S. forces may face in urban combat.

The Web sites for both RMJ Forge and ATC mention a variety of capabilities of their products, including breaching doors, smashing locks or tearing out windows to enter buildings, chopping holes in cinder block walls — and even punching through a standard Kevlar helmet.



A Slow Road to Acceptance

Prisco's tomahawk has been advanced for consideration under the Soldier Enhancement Program, a congressionally mandated program that allows the evaluation and adoption by the military of commercial, off-the-shelf items.

Soldiers from a platoon of the 101st Air Assault Division at Fort Campbell, Ky., were used to evaluate ways to enhance soldiers' sawing, cutting and chopping capabilities. The military's current standard-issue item is the improved entrenching tool, a compact folding shovel that is often used for chopping, hammering, etc.

The soldiers tested the entrenching tool against other tools, including the tomahawk, in a series of tasks, including digging fighting positions (known in previous wars as foxholes).

"When the program requested documentation, I received numerous e-mails from soldiers in the field talking about they liked this item [the tomahawk]," said Rochelle Bautista, combat developer with the United States Army Infantry School. While the test was completed in November 2001, no final decision has yet been made.

One e-mail sent to Bautista's office came from a 22-year veteran with service in the Rangers and special forces. Because he is currently serving in-theater, military officials requested he not be named.

He said that in his experience, the best use for the government-issue entrenching tool is to "keep it in its carrier and buried in your rucksack. However, an issue tomahawk ... would be the single most innovative and smart thing the Army has done for the soldier in years in terms of such a piece of equipment.

"As a close-quarters combat weapon — especially given our current operations and the evolving and necessary tactics for Advanced Urban Warfare ... the tomahawk, THIS tomahawk, cannot be improved upon."



Not Everyone’s Convinced

Not everyone is sold on the tomahawk's potential for widespread acceptance in the military.

Retired Army Maj. Gen. William Nash, an ABCNEWS military analyst, said the Army is not quick to add new items — and weight — to the list of gear that a soldier has to carry. Also, as a safety issue, commanders often have reservations about providing soldiers with untested items, or allowing them to carry one they purchased themselves.

"I've been in outfits where any private weapon — to include knives — were not permitted," Nash said. "But as the lethality of the weapon increases, the tolerance for its presence decreases. They become too unaccounted for."

Nash, who commanded the 1st Armored Division in Bosnia and was the commander of the 1st Brigade, 3rd Armored Division during Operation Desert Storm, offered a grim example. The first U.S. soldier to die in Bosnia was killed by a land mine. The soldier, who had no training in the handling of explosive ordnance, was experimenting with the mine using a Leatherman-style multitool.

"Now, if he hadn't had a Leatherman, he might have still screwed around with a mine. But it's that type of ad-hockery that commanders worry about," said Nash. "There's an ingrained discipline that comes with all of this that commanders don't want to lose."

As for testing a tomahawk against the entrenching tool, Nash remains skeptical.

"It's hard enough [to dig a fighting position] with an entrenching tool. The hatchet's a better hatchet than the entrenching tool is. But we didn't buy the entrenching tool for a hatchet. We bought it to dig holes."

Nash was not totally negative in his assessment. "Now ... at the same time, an innovative person comes up with something that may be useful, but it takes a long time for the Army to test it and get it in the field. That frustrates the soldier."



Does This Relic From the Past Have a Future?

Currently, service members are buying tomahawks individually or, in some cases, units are using operational funds to buy them for their group. But manufacturers would not be displeased if their products were adopted more widely in the armed services.

"This is not a standard-issue item per se — [but] are we moving that direction? Yes indeed, in my view we are," said ATC's Prisco. "The tomahawk's got a lot of versatility — soldiers don't have to carry seven or eight pieces of larger kit. They can carry a tomahawk and do the same thing."

RMJ Forge's Johnson said in his opinion, the tomahawk won't be a standard-issue item for all of the military, but "I think it will definitely be an issue item for a lot of the special forces eventually."

Prisco added that the appeal of tomahawks goes beyond the military. He said members of the Border Patrol and Department of Justice carry his products along the border, and members of the Drug Enforcement Administration use it when they conduct operations in forest environments.

"As far as firefighting and law enforcement, there are a lot of crossover applications of our products," Prisco said. One message on the forum of ATC's Web site written by a firefighter describes how he used his tomahawk to break a padlock off a gate, then hacked open a door to get access to a burning house.

Johnson said it was a conversation with a firefighter that gave him the idea for a modified tomahawk small enough for firefighters to carry, but big enough for them to cut or pry their way out of a dangerous situation.

"He said, 'I'd love to have one to carry on my personal gear. If you did this and this and this, that would eliminate three things that I'd have to carry — I could just have it all in this one tool.' So that's kinda the direction we've been going, to come up with a multipurpose tool."

Tomahawk Strikes a Balance Between Tool and Weapon

April 15 — Regardless of the tomahawk's historic combat uses, American Tomahawk Co.'s Andy Prisco said primarily he considers it to be a tool.

"There's no doubt [that a tomahawk is also a backup weapon], but the entrenching tool is also a backup weapon, so there is nothing new about the tomahawk's ability. It's extremely capable in this regard ... The Patriot and The Last of the Mohicans are well-known movies where a tomahawk is used combatively."

One e-mail sent to the U.S. Army Infantry School supporting adoption of tomahawks came from an instructor in the U.S. Air Force Special Operations School's International Terrorism Division.

He said that while he was deployed in Afghanistan, tomahawks were useful for tasks that field-issue bayonets and fighting knives were too delicate to accomplish. He said troops were constantly borrowing tomahawks from those who had them, and they were used for everything from cutting open foreign metal ammunition cans to ripping apart wooden pallets for construction to kitchen duty, when a cook used one to butcher a goat.

Both Prisco and Ryan Johnson of RMJ Forge say their tomahawks are being chosen by members of a broad spectrum of the military, including elite units from Air Force security groups, Navy SEALs, Army Rangers and special forces. In fact, one special forces team's new patch features an ATC tomahawk crossed with a bayonet and arrow, topped with a skull.

Prisco said that between purchases by individuals and some military units, his firm has sold several thousand tomahawks to armed services personnel.

Johnson said he wasn't at liberty to say how many tomahawks he's sold to members of the military. "It's been enough to keep us busy, let's put it that way."

U.S. forces have much more deadly items in the arsenal, and even bayonets are accepted as military weapons. But despite the tomahawk's dual role as a tool, the prospect of its use as a weapon makes some people uncomfortable.

Johnson said that during an interview at his shop, a reporter held one of his tomahawks. "Don't you think this is kind of vicious?" he was asked.

"And I told her, 'These guys aren't playing tag football out there.' This is serious business. The average person that carries our stuff, they're special forces, and these guys, this is the kind of stuff they need."
— David Tillett, ABCNEWS.com
__________________


A piece I wrote for Precision Shooting

Since the birth of our nation, American fighting forces have been carrying an increasingly wide range of technically advanced weapons. Many of us have spent the last number of months carefully inspecting these remarkable weapons through the photos accompanying the articles of our troops fighting in Afghanistan. About a month ago, I became aware of something quite extraordinary. Although few weapons have remained essentially in their original form throughout the ages, it appears that the tomahawk, now some 250 years old, is alive and serving in Afghanistan.

The last time U.S. forces carried modernized tomahawk versions was in Vietnam, where some 4,000 tomahawks were issued to Army Rangers. Today, U.S. Special Forces in Afghanistan are carrying the latest version of this venerable weapon capable of remarkable performance on the 21st century battlefield.

What a weapon it is! An updated 1750 spike axe design is rendered in modern materials through the use of computer-aided lasers cutting tomahawks out of sheets of 1075 Spring Steel. 1430 degrees of heat provides selective hardening for a tough, carbonized 56-58 Rockwell hardness on the cutting and piercing edges, 44-46 slightly carbonized Rockwell readings on the head, and 24-26 carbonless hardening on the handle. Brutal battle toughness at the head, flexible toughness at the handle provides the ultimate in strength and survivability; a tomahawk that will not break under the heaviest possible use. The design requirements included the ability to pierce the newest issue Kevlar helmets, something these tomahawks do with surprising, silent ease.

“The design being employed is time and practice proven,” says Ryan Johnson, designer and maker of the Eagle Talon
Tomahawk, “The requirements call for a spike axe that weighs in at approximately two pounds. What RMJ Forge has done is take a field-proven design and made it stronger with modern materials, methods and design”

RMJ Forge has been shipping out Eagle Talons to the Ranger Training Brigade at Fort Benning, Ga. since October, earning some interesting accolades. "Special Forces have always carried tomahawks as the sidearm of choice," states Col. Bucci, assistant to Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld. "I'm guessing that any men in the field who see those guys carrying Ryan's tomahawks are going to want one too." Col. Bucci has a tomahawk hanging in his Pentagon office.

Eagle Talon tomahawks are bead-blasted and provided in a mil-spec parkerized finish. The handle is full tang construction, some 3/8” thick, and covered with two panels of 11” long Micarta. The scabbard supplied is made of Kydex, a thermo-formed plastic that is molded to the shape of each individual tomahawk. There are five rivets, three screws, and three large grommets providing almost unlimited tie-down options. The reverse of the scabbard sports a Tek-Lok belt clip adjustable to 2.5” belts. To remove the tomahawk simply pull up, to put it back, simply pull down and the weapon locks in place.

Interested parties should contact RMJ Forge in Hixson, TN at (423) 842-9323 or at www.rmjforge.com. Note that military personnel receive priority…and a hefty discount. Civilians can also sponsor delivery of these tomahawks to troops overseas.

 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

I went with the hunters axe by gransfors bruks simply because it will end up seeing most of its use in the woods up here. I carried a busse steel heart for a long time while in the service to serve in mulitiple roles, but found that although heavily built and damn intimidating, it wasn't really great for any one task. Too heavy for a dedicated fighting knife, too short to serve in a machete type role, and not particularly great for chopping or pounding stakes. It was however a great thowing knife in that it would likely hurt pretty bad no matter which part of it ended up hitting you. Looking back, a tomahawk or longer hatchet would of been better suited for what I was using the busse for.
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Ratbert</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: neutronics</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I just wish it were easier to carry a hawk concealed like a pocket knife!
</div></div>

You just need a REALLY small one
laugh.gif


</div></div>

Hmmmm, well Ryan made this one for me on a bet. Will this do? Just before the first Talon's rolled off the line. After that...well.

rmj.jpg
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

The Hawk was given to me by my last Commander, he had them made for everyone in the unit. The Kukri was from a mission about 15 years ago and has been on four continents with me. Best cold steel I have ever abused.
Blades002.jpg
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

i carry one but for breaching reasons not anti-personel reasons. similar reason to why i carry a fixed blade knife, i use my small strider tanto as a pry bar more then a cutting instument. the movies are awesome, but thats all they are is entertainment. Just cuz its on "the unit" or "tears of the sun" doesn't mean its based on reality.

they are awesome though for breaking off door locks, ripping down broken doors, breaking windows, etc etc. there is a lot of practical uses for one but is mission dependant.
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

i agree with you JJ, i was just commenting on what someone might actually use it for.

the scene from indiana jones comes to mind when i think of how it would actually be, dude with tamahawk swings it around and guy with gun just shoots him, the end.
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Badd Kharma</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or if you co star with Danial Day Lewis in"Last of the Mohican's" </div></div>

A solid review of the LOTM-inspired Hawk, created by master bladesmith David Winkler and H2H combatives expert Raphael K. (Sayoc Int'l), being used in the field: www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=789942

IMHO, the smaller version of this R&D Hawk (as reviewed) is a good blend of form/function as a combatives weapon & breaching tool.

From an artistic perspective, it's beast! A real looker of a Hawk. However, the cost of ownership is excessive IMO.

Having (only) TRAINED with tomahawks in Kali Sayoc, I can tell you that a hawk is a formidable weapon. However, the hawk carry and access factor is the crux. There are other edged weapons, as many have pointed out, that are equally adept for serving as a CQB solution.
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AMOK!</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Badd Kharma</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Or if you co star with Danial Day Lewis in"Last of the Mohican's" </div></div>

A solid review of the LOTM-inspired Hawk, created by master bladesmith David Winkler and H2H combatives expert Raphael K. (Sayoc Int'l), being used in the field: www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=789942

IMHO, the smaller version of this R&D Hawk (as reviewed) is a good blend of form/function as a combatives weapon & breaching tool.

From an artistic perspective, it's beast! A real looker of a Hawk. However, the cost of ownership is excessive IMO.

Having (only) TRAINED with tomahawks in Kali Sayoc, I can tell you that a hawk is a formidable weapon. However, the hawk carry and access factor is the crux. There are other edged weapons, as many have pointed out, that are equally adept for serving as a CQB solution.</div></div>

I think we might know a few of the same people.
wink.gif


Have you trained with Tom?

Cheers,
Jim
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

I have to laugh about this whole thread. Back in '84 the 1st RGR BN S-4 purchased 600 tomahawks. There they sat, in the S-4 warehouse. Bn Cdr, Or someone close to him said, "The men will hurt themselves with these." "It's just a matter of time before someone takes one to himself or someone else."

Next big NCO gathering, I heard "Well DUH!" "It's a weapon!" "Any Ranger worth his salt is going to play with it until he hurts himself....or someone else." "Pretty amazing though how we can (mostly) get through as many live fires as we do and pack our bayonets around without causing too much damage."

With some training these could become a very effective weapon. A hell of a lot better than an e-tool. Which tends to leave a gash and a deep bruise underneath but not much more than that. A good shot to the head can crack a skull. But, it won't split it like a melon as some say. The tomahawk with the spike will penetrate the skull and it will rearrange brain matter.
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With some training these could become a very effective weapon. A hell of a lot better than an e-tool. Which tends to leave a gash and a deep bruise underneath but not much more than that. A good shot to the head can crack a skull. But, it won't split it like a melon as some say. The tomahawk with the spike will penetrate the skull and it will rearrange brain matter.</div></div>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2piPDQ3QiM0

Extended reach, leverage and force over a blade, about as intuitive as a hammer, and capable of killing in a single blow.

They're great if you want to kill people up close, and not use bullets/explosives.
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

I have to agree with JJ- I'd rather carry more late-20th or 21st century weaponry.

Unless I need a TOOL- in which case, I'd almost rather see a small axe with some sort of pry-bar end on the handle to make it more useful than your run of the mill hatchet.

Killing quietly with a hatchet? Yeah I doubt it... and if killing quietly were a genuine requirement, you'd have much better tools to accomplish the mission.
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With some training these could become a very effective weapon. A hell of a lot better than an e-tool. Which tends to leave a gash and a deep bruise underneath but not much more than that. A good shot to the head can crack a skull. But, it won't split it like a melon as some say. The tomahawk with the spike will penetrate the skull and it will rearrange brain matter.</div></div>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2piPDQ3QiM0</div></div>

Jim - A "3 of 9 Template" for the Tomahawk a la Sayoc? Nice.
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

..

Great hunting hawk. Heavy damascus stainless mix. Thick enough to seperate heavy joints. Knife blade is same materials and the whole rig comes apart for boiling. When you conside the hawk is a double ground (not chisel) you can see how thick it is.

HUNTING2-1.jpg


hunting3.jpg


 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Killing quietly with a hatchet? Yeah I doubt it... and if killing quietly were a genuine requirement, you'd have much better tools to accomplish the mission.</div></div>
Doubt all you want...doesn't change the facts that they are in use for that purpose.
http://www.blademag.com/article/aneffectiveforcemultiplier

This article pissed a lot of people off (this shouldn't have gone public), but it's out there now.
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AMOK!</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sandwarrior</div><div class="ubbcode-body">With some training these could become a very effective weapon. A hell of a lot better than an e-tool. Which tends to leave a gash and a deep bruise underneath but not much more than that. A good shot to the head can crack a skull. But, it won't split it like a melon as some say. The tomahawk with the spike will penetrate the skull and it will rearrange brain matter.</div></div>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2piPDQ3QiM0</div></div>

Jim - A "3 of 9 Template" for the Tomahawk a la Sayoc? Nice.</div></div>
Yep, there are a few templates for the hawk. Tom (or most of the other STG instructors) can probably tell you more.
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Killing quietly with a hatchet? Yeah I doubt it... and if killing quietly were a genuine requirement, you'd have much better tools to accomplish the mission.</div></div>
Doubt all you want...doesn't change the facts that they are in use for that purpose.
http://www.blademag.com/article/aneffectiveforcemultiplier

This article pissed a lot of people off (this shouldn't have gone public), but it's out there now. </div></div>


I don't see how there is anything in there that "shouldn't have gone public"...

but, you're welcome to your opinion- However, I've never seen an instance where a hatchet would be a wise weapon choice when you could carry something else.

And I don't know of anyone who as ACTUALLY used one in combat. And I've been around a few years
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

..


J. J. Mcquade's point...guy in black is a 4th level red sash and suspenders sayoc grand master!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbJyZ4eDkIs&feature=player_embedded

When this got out it really pissed off allot of people, but its out there now. Time to change the handle curviture to a low light indexing signature. Less Eastern Mappurondo, more kris Silat scorpian. Perhaps with a hint of Grimili's edge.

Next!

It's almost turket time..where is my hatchet?

..

 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

$425, you have got to be s#!%&'n me!

If you must have a tomahawk, you can buy as good or better a weapon at Home Depot. Name me one person since the 1800's that has used a tomahawk in combat, Hmmmm, I wonder why the Indians got away from bladed weapons for the "powder driven" weapons.

I carried a long hatchet in Viet Nam, until I got tired of the weight, a Randall was so much better, plus you must swing a hatchet. How many more times can I stick 2" - 3" of blade in you or cut you with small strokes while you are swinging your axe around trying to get a good cutting angle. Other than survival skills, the only advantage to an axe/hatchet is reach and a bit of power, if in a fight, you close fast and like the Russians, I believe in many many small cuts. In the Q-course, I had an instructor that even preferred a 2" knife blade to the big Bowie like knives, like he told me, how many times are you going to face a fencing expert in a knife fight, maybe zero.

I unfortunately have used bladed weapons in fights and combat, win or loose there is an almost 100% chance you are going to get cut. So IMHO, OK, for survival skills and to smash through heavy metal armor, an axe, but in a close and dirty fight, I will take a knife any day, if I do not have a gun
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

Not sure how much a tomahawk is really useful for breaching, ECT seems to blow locks really well, and we have really good subsonic suppressed weapons for silent kills.
I just can't really justify putting it on my kit. What does it take the place of? Do I drop mags, frags, my pistol, my suppressor, bangs, charges? What please tell me what on my kit would be worth replacing with a tomahawk. Do I believe that I'm going to go to my tomahawk in a stressful situation, suppress my muscle memory for drawing my side arm and engaging the threat? Am I going to close with the enemy so I can hack or scalp him? Hell no, I'm going to drop bombs on him, then shoot him from really long ranges maybe from a (sniper's hide), throw hand grenades at him, or shoot him with my pistol. I'd use my rifle and go Davy Crockett on his ass before I'd carry a tomahawk, in the slight chance that i run out of explosives or shotgun rounds to open doors. Rarely have I come across a door overseas that I can't open with my foot. To hack at a door with a tomahawk is inviting a lead party to visit you through said door. That's what I'd do. Tomahawks had there place, when your flintlock was expended of all it's rounds. Go for it.
But if you are using it as a peace pipe I can surley see it's application. And if this is the case then by all means I support it.
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..


J. J. Mcquade's point...guy in black is a 4th level red sash and suspenders sayoc grand master!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbJyZ4eDkIs&feature=player_embedded

When this got out it really pissed off allot of people, but its out there now. Time to change the handle curviture to a low light indexing signature. Less Eastern Mappurondo, more kris Silat scorpian. Perhaps with a hint of Grimili's edge.

Next!

It's almost turket time..where is my hatchet?

..

</div></div>
Damn... you guys are too high speed for me.

Dunno what I was thinking before, trying to contribute. You guys got it figured out already. My bad.
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

One last comment and I hesitate even doing this since someone might get the impression that I am buying into this SF tomahawk crap, but before you start paying $150, $250, $350, $450 or more do a little research.

There are any number of websites like the one with the url below where you can get the same axe/tomahawk/hatchet as the really expensive ones, do a little looking around:

http://www.ragweedforge.com/ThrowingCatalog.html

The one I carried for a few weeks in Viet Nam was simialr to the Cold Steel Trail Boss, which is actually an axe:

http://www.coldsteel.com/trailboss.html

Kinda figured out real quick, I was not going to chop a whole lot of fire wood, and trying to sneaky pete'n up an wacking them would mean I brought an axe/tomahawk to a gun fight.

Sorry, I guess I never was very high speed
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lil'Joe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">One last comment and I hesitate even doing this since someone might get the impression that I am buying into this SF tomahawk crap, but before you start paying $150, $250, $350, $450 or more do a little research.

<span style="font-weight: bold">There are any number of websites like the one with the url below where you can get the same axe/tomahawk/hatchet as the really expensive ones, do a little looking around:</span>

http://www.ragweedforge.com/ThrowingCatalog.html

The one I carried for a few weeks in Viet Nam was simialr to the Cold Steel Trail Boss, which is actually an axe:

http://www.coldsteel.com/trailboss.html

Kinda figured out real quick, I was not going to chop a whole lot of fire wood, and trying to sneaky pete'n up an wacking them would mean I brought an axe/tomahawk to a gun fight.

Sorry, I guess I never was very high speed


</div></div>

The hawks on the link you provided are completely different from the ones that cost a few hundred dollars. It's like trying to compare a Kia to a Roles Royce because they both run on gas and have 4 wheels.

You're paying for high grade steel, heat treatment, edge geometry and finishing, handle construction, joint construction, balance, all done by hand by a skilled craftsman (except for the RMJ's being drop forged).
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

Sorry no disrespect, but I am calling the BS flag.

I have a little experience with bladed weapons, as well as making my living for several years as a limberjack. Sorry I may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night.

Buy what you want, but a good quality tempered steel axe for less than $100 will walk and talk all day long with the over priced tin you are promoting
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lil'Joe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sorry no disrespect, but I am calling the BS flag.

I have a little experience with bladed weapons, as well as making my living for several years as a limberjack. Sorry I may have been born at night, but it wasn't last night.

Buy what you want, but a good quality tempered steel axe for less than $100 will walk and talk all day long with the over priced tin you are promoting</div></div>

No disrespect taken, and I don't "promote" anyone...but you shouldn't be so quick to "throw the BS flag".

Strider, Mad Dog, CRK, Spartan Blades, and Emerson, are all "production" blades that cost a LOT more than Spyderco, Benchmade, Gerber, Kershaw, etc. They also sell like crazy because enough people think they're worth buying. YOU might not think so, but that doesn't make them "over priced tin".

You haven't handled or used a Sayoc/ Winkler, or RMJ...have you? Yet you're happy to comment on their quality. Interesting.

Do you regularly shit talk AI because you have a Remington that shoots just fine?

They are a niche product. If you're not in that niche, don't buy one.
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

Actually I have had my hands on several "High Quality" axes of all sorts, felling axes, “battle axes”, camp axes and hatchets; some as a woodsman like the Gransfors Bruks American Felling Axe and for fun like the Gransfors Bruks Competition Throwing Axe, and other kinds of axes and hatchets at other times for other things. As I said before, I have used an axe for among other things, to make a living as a lumberjack for a couple of years, I have used axes around the camp to split fire wood when I did not run a cold camp, and in the field to field dress game. I can put a rather useless razor edge an axe when I want to, but mostly run a working edge.

BTW, I have had my hands on the Sayoc Winkler Hawk, but I believe it falls into the +/- $85 range, not the $350 - $450 range as advertised in some of the links listed above. I do consider the RMJ overpriced and again have handled one.

It appears that you practice or are familiar with the PI Martial Art of Sayoc, and encourage you to buy any axe, hatchet, stick you want. From what I have seen, it is a very good and very difficult MA to master, but I wonder what the axes were that they used to develop the skills?

My main problem with this discussion is attaching the adjective of "Special Forces" to an Axe like SF troops regularly carry/carried them, Check out my Byline, I spent a few years with the groups, occasionally even with a team. My MOS when I graduated from the "Q" course was a 12B3S (later to become an 18C) or Special Forces qualified Combat Engineer and although we carried Woodsman Axes in our kits, I never saw a High Speed/Low Drag troop carry more than a camp axe into the field.

Sorry a little sensitive about attaching one of my bullet proof green beanies to all of the gear we were rumored to carry.

And no, I don't "Shit Talk" anything I have no knowledge of.
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lil'Joe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

.....

not the <span style="font-weight: bold">$350 - $450 range</span> as advertised in some of the links listed above.

</div></div>

Whether the tomahawk has or does not have merit may be a continous point of debate, I will say that statement says it best right there. It' a piece of steel. We have the technology to make the shape and weight we want for far less than that price. I mean if I can buy a Vaughn framing hammer or framing hatchet for $40 then I should be able to buy a standard fighting hatchet for about the same.

And, FWIW, I find all the stuff that gets attached to your unit name really does kind of grind on you after a while. Not like I want to dis Ranger Joe's, but I saw a lot more cheap crap there that I'd never carry with me than I ever would carry with me. When I was going through Ranger School, JC Penney's had the best sale at the time for polypropylene gear. If you could fart and it would make a bubble in your pants or shirt, you knew it was tight.
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Texagator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have become absolutely convinced that one can sell almost anything....I mean <span style="text-decoration: underline">anything</span>....as long as you associate any of the following terms with the product:

<span style="font-style: italic">-Special Forces
- Spetnaz
- SEAL
- tactical
- Ranger
- Recon
- SWAT
- sniper
- Delta.</span>

I used to joke that you could sell pens for more money if you put the word, "tactical" in front of the word, "pen." Then...people actually started doing it and the joke wasn't funny anymore. People will buy the most useless, non-mission essential crap so long as they are convinced (or convince themselves) that some SF/Recon/SEAL guy somewhere also owns one and maybe...just maybe...carried it in a "combat zone." JEEEZUS!

I am aware of a real-world HSLD unit that wanted to augment the breaching ability of non-breachers on the team without using a full blown Halligan tool. After an intense, super secret selection process, THIS was the uber-tacticool tomahawk-type device they selected:

31jwvMIO50L._SL500_AA300_.jpg


Total cost: $29.95. It can be purchased at secret suppliers such as Harbor Freight, Sears, Home Depot, and Lowes. Be sure to use your black budget during the procurement process for OPSEC, COMSEC, and PERSEC purposes.

</div></div>

Very true.

On a similar note, we're seeing a lot of LE guys using the Stanley Fubar's for entry work. Nothing "high speed" but it fits their needs apparently.

Was talking to a few swat guys the other week, said they had their local fire dept give them tips on breaching, and they learned more then than they had in multiple .mil/LE classes on it.

Functionality should always trump the CDI factor.
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jim D</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Texagator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have become absolutely convinced that one can sell almost anything....I mean <span style="text-decoration: underline">anything</span>....as long as you associate any of the following terms with the product:

<span style="font-style: italic">-Special Forces
- Spetnaz
- SEAL
- tactical
- Ranger
- Recon
- SWAT
- sniper
- Delta.</span>

I used to joke that you could sell pens for more money if you put the word, "tactical" in front of the word, "pen." Then...people actually started doing it and the joke wasn't funny anymore. People will buy the most useless, non-mission essential crap so long as they are convinced (or convince themselves) that some SF/Recon/SEAL guy somewhere also owns one and maybe...just maybe...carried it in a "combat zone." JEEEZUS!

I am aware of a real-world HSLD unit that wanted to augment the breaching ability of non-breachers on the team without using a full blown Halligan tool. After an intense, super secret selection process, THIS was the uber-tacticool tomahawk-type device they selected:

31jwvMIO50L._SL500_AA300_.jpg


Total cost: $29.95. It can be purchased at secret suppliers such as Harbor Freight, Sears, Home Depot, and Lowes. Be sure to use your black budget during the procurement process for OPSEC, COMSEC, and PERSEC purposes.

</div></div>

Very true.

On a similar note, we're seeing a lot of LE guys using the Stanley Fubar's for entry work. Nothing "high speed" but it fits their needs apparently.

Was talking to a few swat guys the other week, said they had their local fire dept give them tips on breaching, and they learned more then than they had in multiple .mil/LE classes on it.

Functionality should always trump the CDI factor. </div></div>

Texagator, so where can I get one of those tactical pens you were talking about? kidding
Most of the time tactical means painting it the cammo color of the week. Double the price for a coat of spray paint.
From a capitalistic point of view, quite clever. Make up for lack of training by purchasing the wonder combat tool. Buy the (insert piece of kit) used by a (insert Spec OP unit of choice) gauranteed to make you invincible in the face of the enemy.
Maybe false motivation is better than no motivation. Whatever works I guess.
 
Re: Spec Forces Tomahawk

And to think, they used to tell us our Green Beanies were bulletproof.

My gosh, cooler heads have prevailed after all. Now does anyone want to buy an Amstaff (The true pit bull) guaranteed to whip anything up to and including a Giant Monkey or Reincarnated Dinsaur.

Seriously, I have three beautiful young dogs for sale OBO. Can't afford to feed them anymore, AKC registerable, champion bloodlines, and yes I know this is the wrong forum.