Stacking tolerances and MOA - what happens?

boltstop

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
May 17, 2010
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Colorado, USA
Hello.

I just had an errant thought about MOA, stacking tolerances, and what contributes to inaccuracy with rifle systems.

Can every aspect of a rifle system (independent of the most variable aspect, the shooter [of course]) be expressed as a contributor to "overall accuracy" (in MOA) of that system?

In other words, can you say "this scope mounting solution's inherent fault or flex contributes a range of .XX MOA to this rifle system" and "the stock contributes a range of .XX MOA" and so on?

The point I'm getting at is that such problems with a rifle, if they stack up, might lead to greater shot-to-shot dispersion at unpredictable intervals.
 
Re: Stacking tolerances and MOA - what happens?

I believe the answer is an absolute yes in a perfect world - if each "stackable" item could be quantified exactly. In the real world (the one in which we exist) the answer is no. I mean in reality - my bedding accounts for .023752% deviation per shot... My rail mounts accounts for .007827%... Rings vibrate at... Temperature is... Metal expansion at temp... Threading tolerance... - just humidity would throw a huge variable into any such equation.

Man my brain just shorted out.
 
Re: Stacking tolerances and MOA - what happens?

Mine shorted first. <snort>

I kind of see it like this: Crummy ammo - say 2.5 MOA. Shooter error: .5 MOA. Bad stock, 1.7 MOA (these are all just hypothetical figures for sale of an example).

On shot 1, ammo could be 1.125 MOA from center - anywhere in that 2.5 MOA circle. Say the shooter errs .5 MOA 180 degrees away from the error given by the ammo. Things are 'going his way.' However, stock error comes in and slops that round 80 degrees towards the original ammo error, so now the tolerance stacks to around 2 - 2.5 MOA. add in the random error from other variables...

I guess the point is to minimize the most aberrant variable in order to shrink those groups, and probably more importantly, tame those weirdo flyers that come out of nowhere (probably all the tolerances stack against you - bad cartridge, bad technique, something goes haywire with the equipment, wind changes downrange right before you pull the trigger.) Subsequent shots, esp. if the variables exhibit poor hysterisis, might have you chasing rounds with scope adjustment like crazy.

Ahhh, the pursuit of accuracy and repeatability is a frustrating affair! :-<
 
Re: Stacking tolerances and MOA - what happens?

Msgt Jim Owens refers to this as "Cones of Accuracy". Each variable does detract to the overall potential accuracy. However, it is not always that simple. Sometimes variables will cancel each other out. Sometimes they will be additive. This can change from shot to shot, making the diagnoses even more difficult. The two most difficult variables two control, Wind and the Shooter.
 
Re: Stacking tolerances and MOA - what happens?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boltstop</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess the point is to minimize the most aberrant variable in order to shrink those groups, and probably more importantly, tame those weirdo flyers that come out of nowhere (probably all the tolerances stack against you - bad cartridge, bad technique, something goes haywire with the equipment, wind changes downrange right before you pull the trigger.)</div></div>

While I don't think you'll get any argument from anyone that every single aspect of a rifle from the receiver to the barrel to the trigger to the stock to...well...you get the idea...has an impact on the accuracy "potential" of the rifle. However, I am not aware of anyone with the time or inclination who has actually sat down and mathematically/scientifically attempted to categorize and quantify the precise figures you are looking for.

The best thing that I can advise you on is to pay up front for the best you can afford in terms of your gear (rifle, mounts, optics, etc....going custom on a rifle to ensure that tolerances are as tight as they can be is the way to go) as this will eliminate many of the variables you are seeking to control. BUT...with that said...in my experience, the largest percentage of accuracy problems are directly attributable to operator error, with environmental conditions (and operator miscalculation or inability to compensate for them) coming in a close second!
wink.gif
 
Re: Stacking tolerances and MOA - what happens?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ORD</div><div class="ubbcode-body">While I don't think you'll get any argument from anyone that every single aspect of a rifle from the receiver to the barrel to the trigger to the stock to...well...you get the idea...has an impact on the accuracy "potential" of the rifle. However, I am not aware of anyone with the time or inclination who has actually sat down and mathematically/scientifically attempted to categorize and quantify the precise figures you are looking for.</div></div>

RIFLE ACCURACY FACTS by Harold R. Vaughn
Publisher: Precision Shooting, Inc (October 1, 1998)
ISBN-10: 1931220085
ISBN-13: 978-1931220088

(1) Receiver Ring Movement(recoil lug) Recoil Effects page 46

"When the rifle is fired there is a net recoil force action on the rifle action that is equal to the force action on the base of the bullet, which is about 3,000 pounds at the peak chamber pressure of 53,000 psi. The force action on the bullet was shown in figure 2-24. This force is transmitted to the stock by the recoil lug on the bottom of the rifle action. Since there must be an equal and opposite reaction to any force, the stock exerts and equal force on the recoil lug in the opposite, or forward direction. This force results in a recoil moment being exerted on the forward receiver ring tending to drive the muzzle in an upward direction. "

(2) Scope Mount Motion page 93

The mounts on is particular rifle are Weaver Top Mounts with aluminum bases attached by two 6-48 screws. Now, there is just no way that two small screws can keep these bases rigidly fixed to the receiver under the loading conditions present on a rifle, no matter how tight you get them. This becomes very evident when one realizes that the axial load on the scope is roughly 500 to 700 pounds on a 270 sporter during firing. Well in fact the bases don't stay put, and you can prove this with a very simple test. All you have to do is tap on the front base with a small
hammer applied to a wood dowel so as to move it to the right, and repeat the operation on the rear base in a direction to move it to the left. Then you fire a shot, and repeat the operation three times for a three shot group. The whole operation is repeated again, only this time the bases are tapped in the opposite direction. If there is no effect, all six shots should be grouped together. When I ran this test, two distinct three shot groups resulted separated by .503 inches in the horizontal direction.

(3) Scope Mount Motion page 96

The action was held in a vice and a dial gage measured the deflection of the muzzle as the hydraulic fluid was heated causing a axial force between the front and rear scope mount. From the data in table 6 you can calculate the angle with respect to the vertical to be about 23deg, which is a little less than the angle seen on the targets. The reason for the Groups being canted at than angle is that the receiver is weaker on the right side than the left as a result of the loading port. Consequently, the receiver bends in a plane canted to the right with respect to vertical. One can also see from Table 6 that a differential force of roughly 75-100 pounds is all that is required to cause the amount of linear dispersion seen in Figure 5-2. I decided that the easiest way to solve this problem was to make a steel bridge mount and silver solder it at both ends (figure 5-4) The bridge mount worked and eliminated the problem. I repeated the test in Table 6 with the bridge mount and the muzzle deflections were reduced by roughly a factor of ten, which means that the vertical dispersion caused by the scope mount differential axial load should be less than .1 in at 100 yards. The bad part about this solution is that it interferes with the loading port and is a bit of a nuisance. It also adds about 1.5 ounces of weight, but I don't know of any other solution. However, the bridge mount does add considerable stiffness to the fairly flexible receiver, and should improve accuracy in other ways besides the scope problem.

(4) Chapter 6 Barrel-Receiver Threaded Joint Motion page 112

What all this comes down to is that the joint with an axial preload of 20,000 pounds has marginal stability under ordinary conditions, and is unstable when hot after firing two or three 5-shot groups without cooling. This roughly corresponds with our experience shown in Table 5, so I feel certain that this is a real effect. What is needed is an axial preload in excess of 24,000 pounds to assure that the joint cannot move under these extreme conditions of heating, shock, and vibration.
 
Re: Stacking tolerances and MOA - what happens?

I think Brutas has the right idea - you can have degrees of variation imposed by several different things, but you can't simply add them up as they are as likely to cancel each other out as to simply add together in any given shot.

John
 
Re: Stacking tolerances and MOA - what happens?

You are over complicating this. The end result will be a poor shooter with a lot of excuses why his equipment let him down and pointing less at shooter error.

It is simple, modern, high quality components are predictable and precise. The operator of the equipment is the biggest variable. Concentrate on that first.

When there is absolutely no room for software improvement, then look at hardware. The vast majority of shooters will not move to step two n their lifetime.
 
Re: Stacking tolerances and MOA - what happens?

Here's an interesting tidbit. Many of you probably know this already. Lets say you go out and shoot an average of 0.7" group size. Now let's say you see about .35" of wiggle in your gun movement. Now if things were perfect, the other .35" would be the gun right? Not quite. Variances don't add normally, they add "geometricly" So what you do is take (.5") and square it and then take another .5" and sqaure it. Then add them. That is 1/4 plus 1/4 which is 1/2. Now take the square root of 1/2 which is .7, whew!

What is happening is SOMETIMES the wiggles cancel each other (and sometimes they add to each other) and they do it in such a way as to come out with LESS total variance than if you just add them together arithmetically.

So in this case, 1/2" of wiggle plus a 1/2" of gun being off equals 3/4" (approx) and not the 1" that one might think it would.

Hope you follow, but if you don't what the heck. (And I hope I did it right).
 
Re: Stacking tolerances and MOA - what happens?

Error calculations get ugly in a hurry, I can't imagine it taking any less than a month of solid work to accurately measure and model the error from each little piece and part and how it effects the whole. It's entirely possible to do, it would just require a ton of time and very very precise measuring tools. Your calculated error would not only include the actual error of the gun, but your measurements too.

My bet is that with a quality rifle, you find that the mechanical accuracy of the rifle is far, far better than the ammo or the shooter.

Even if it took less time than a month, wouldn't the likelihood of scoring a hit increase much more by spending that time practicing? I know which one I'd rather spend a month doing.
smile.gif
 
Re: Stacking tolerances and MOA - what happens?

I agree with Treebasher: Harold Vaughn's "Rifle Accuracy Facts" does address these exact questions of machinery. Harold Vaughn craps question marks. It is a very informative book and interesting to those who think mechanically when they squeeze the trigger. I highly recommend it even if I don't agree with everything in it.

That aside, how many times have we heard: "she'll shoot quarter minute all day when I do my part...". Well, your part is the hard part, put the perfect shot on target every time. It requires lots of time on the range and in dry-fire, like Letitsnow indicated.

Both are important, but you cannot buy yourself center hits all the time.

Semper fi,
 
Re: Stacking tolerances and MOA - what happens?

Holy GOD there are many great answers in this thread.

It also looks like someone's (or two - or twenty) been down this path a couple of times a decade or so before me.

Thanks, kids, for all the kool responses.
 
Re: Stacking tolerances and MOA - what happens?

Confessions...

And yes I use high quality mounts,rings,rifles,reloads,etc.

I don't know about you guys but half the time I go out shooting something in my rifle system is slightly different.Sometimes I'm .1-.2 mil off vertically or horizontally.Sometimes my rifle shoots crazy good then the next time out just average.I know sometimes it's me but...

I think it has to do with temp,humidity??? Everything in the whole system expands and contracts with temp.Not to mention the ammo and powder temp and such.

The benchrest crowd are always fiddling with their loads and other stuff tuning what's needed for the next relay.

Definitely not a perfect world we live in.