starting an aero/space machine shop ?

B

black_ump

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 16, 2007
1,054
0
40
erie,pa 16334
#1
Well I have been kicking the idea around, i worked in one for 4 years and i loved every second of it hands down the best job ever, and you all know the end of the story.

So as I look around for jobs and such, my mom told me to just start my own, at first i got a nice laugh out of it, i mean common seriously. Well the more I think about it the more it seems like a cool idea, start off with 2 maybe 3 cnc machines 2 bar fed lathes and a small mori mill, get a small inspection room with a compareater and a cmm and a big piece of granite for the inspector, and get a secretary and maybe an accountant and then try and get contracts threw various companies for business.

now I am sure one of you on this board might own a machine shop that does aero/space work or you do more then just run a cnc lathe like i did. I am curious to know if iam roughly on the right track with this idea ? the things i dont know are as follows

1. how do you apply for contracts ?
2. how do you become aero/space certified ?
3. out side if my business loan/grants and the above 2 what else should i look into ?

I also though about trying to get military contracts and even get some sort of class 10 or what ever it is license and doing suppressors on the side as well as odds and ends things ump 4 prong muzzle brakes mp5 4 prong brakes umm just odds and ends stuff i guess.

any way if you know about the aerospace stuff and dont mind running some ideas past me that would rock
 
#2
Re: starting an aero/space machine shop ?

Uhh don't. I work in aerospace, we have a govt contract side along with doing FAA/civilian stuff.

Currently, you will need to be ISO 9001 and AS9100 certified. The govt is weary of using companies that don't have this certification. Even if you want to get involved with the OEM's you will need both ISO and AS. Basically you have to pay these guys a lot of money to come in and audit you on a regular basis. You will have to establish Quality Plans and document the crap out of everything. These guys cover EVERYTHING in their audits. Oh and the agencies that you deal with will also come in and audit everything, so you pretty much have to get someone to deal with that. Our QC guy handles at least one audit per month. When he isn't being audited, he auditing our suppliers because you are responsible for anything you contract out like chem film, passivation, etc.

As for as contracts, I'm not sure where you need to start but a good place to start inquiring is with the DLA. http://www.dscr.dla.mil/

As for as bidding on these contracts, we get something like 1% of the contracts we bid on. So it's a tough business to be in.

You will definitely need to hire someone to deal with certs for everything you make. You really need someone solely dedicated to that to make sure you have all your documentation correct and make sure you don't use anything that has an expired shelf life. You can get parts rejected by the govt because the ink you use to stamp the part number is expired by 1 day.

Working with the big OEM's is just as bad. Everyone has their set of rules to follow by so you have to make sure you cross your T's and dot your I's.

It's definitely not an easy industry to get into.
 
#3
Re: starting an aero/space machine shop ?

Agree with Retoocs.

However, if you have the desire to do it, this is how successful companies are born....and many that are not successful but it's still worth a shot.

Don't forget local airports either...

Where I used to work required the ISO, but they had parts made for torpedo's, which are in the same category as aerospace.
 
#4
Re: starting an aero/space machine shop ?

ISO 9001 is actually pretty easy to do. I would recommend using a company like Omnex. I am not familiar with AS9100 but I wouldn't be intimidated by it.

Gov't contracting isn't all that difficult either. You need to be registered with the Central Contractor Registry and ORCA. Once you have your DUNS and NAICS codes start searching databases for opportunities i.e. www.FBO.gov

Once you find an opportunity you need to start reading the applicable FAR guidelines to ensure that you can maintain compliance. Again don't be intimidated by FAR or EMS or whatever standard they through at you just make sure you read the articles incorporated by reference and can comply. Becoming ISO certified actually helps you learn how to tailor systems to a standard.

There is a ton of reading involved but that is the price you pay.
 
#6
Re: starting an aero/space machine shop ?

thanks for the heads up guys, i tried to find out how to get iso qualification but couldnt find any thing that made sense any one wanna explain to me in street terms ?
 
#7
Re: starting an aero/space machine shop ?

In a nutshell ISO 9001 certification requires a quality management system that includes:

Management Review
Auditing
Records and Document Control
Processes and Interaction thereof
Objectives / Goals for each process
Continual Improvement
a Quality Management System Manual

The idea is to create a system that meets the standard organically. That is to say that the standards are maintained throughout the daily course of work. Many companies build flawed systems that are only adhered to when faced with a re-certification audit. This is not the way to build compliance!

Your best bet is to take a course to become an ISO 9001 internal auditor (CQA) and a course on implementation.

I have used Omnex in the past and they were outstanding.
 
#8
Re: starting an aero/space machine shop ?

If you can finance it,........ I'm jealous! Your talking major $$$$$. I am in the buy it pay for it process, before I decide to try to make a living at it. I've wrapped up about 15k and barely have anything. Just manual mill (1997 Lagun FTV-2) and a lathe (2004 Kent 13X40) and some tooling.

I figure, bare bones, to open the doors, with the equipment I want, I am going to be in the $40K range, with NO CNC.

By Aerospace are you talking any Titanium? Pretty spendy CNC equipment to handle that stuff for any amount of time. I believe Boeing spent alot to have Mori build a CNC mill for their titanium parts. Although I am sure these are larger parts, machine dynamics are a big part of titanium, from what I have read on the subject (no 1st hand experience).

Good luck, I hope you can do it (gives me some more encouragement), just be ready for some big bills!
 
#9
Re: starting an aero/space machine shop ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Teggy1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can finance it,........ I'm jealous! Your talking major $$$$$. I am in the buy it pay for it process, before I decide to try to make a living at it. I've wrapped up about 15k and barely have anything. Just manual mill (1997 Lagun FTV-2) and a lathe (2004 Kent 13X40) and some tooling.

I figure, bare bones, to open the doors, with the equipment I want, I am going to be in the $40K range, with NO CNC.

By Aerospace are you talking any Titanium? Pretty spendy CNC equipment to handle that stuff for any amount of time. I believe Boeing spent alot to have Mori build a CNC mill for their titanium parts. Although I am sure these are larger parts, machine dynamics are a big part of titanium, from what I have read on the subject (no 1st hand experience).

Good luck, I hope you can do it (gives me some more encouragement), just be ready for some big bills!

</div></div>

well i figure two small lathes all my tooling,bar feeders and just about every thing needed to get two small lathes going and have money to put tword a building (renting a building) and have enough money for any thing unexpected and to pay two guys to run these machines and an inspector and every thing id say 200k will do it providing i dont spend more then 40k per lathe ( have seen some nice mazak qt's for good deals lately)

id say two lathes should turn enough business to get more business and ill slowly grow or at least stay steady

thanks for the "street" version of the requirements i guess either i go do that or i pay some one who has done that or is willing to do that.
 
#10
Re: starting an aero/space machine shop ?

i know a guy that has a aviation machine shop and FAA repair station for piston engines.......mostly cams and cranks.

certification comes with much gov't intervention and specifications.

the story was told to me some many years ago of an old timer that had carte blanche on ANY airframe of engine repair or airframe modification on ANY aircraft that could or would fly....but me thinks he has since passed , with no other rendering of a like or kind of variance fron the FED.
 
#11
Re: starting an aero/space machine shop ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Teggy1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can finance it,........ I'm jealous! Your talking major $$$$$. I am in the buy it pay for it process, before I decide to try to make a living at it. I've wrapped up about 15k and barely have anything. Just manual mill (1997 Lagun FTV-2) and a lathe (2004 Kent 13X40) and some tooling.

I figure, bare bones, to open the doors, with the equipment I want, I am going to be in the $40K range, with NO CNC.

By Aerospace are you talking any Titanium? Pretty spendy CNC equipment to handle that stuff for any amount of time. I believe Boeing spent alot to have Mori build a CNC mill for their titanium parts. Although I am sure these are larger parts, machine dynamics are a big part of titanium, from what I have read on the subject (no 1st hand experience).

Good luck, I hope you can do it (gives me some more encouragement), just be ready for some big bills!

</div></div>

well i figure two small lathes all my tooling,bar feeders and just about every thing needed to get two small lathes going and have money to put tword a building (renting a building) and have enough money for any thing unexpected and to <span style="font-weight: bold">pay two guys</span> to run these machines and an inspector and every thing id say 200k will do it providing i dont spend more then 40k per lathe ( have seen some nice mazak qt's for good deals lately)

id say two lathes should turn enough business to get more business and ill slowly grow or at least stay steady

thanks for the "street" version of the requirements i guess either i go do that or i pay some one who has done that or is willing to do that.

</div></div>

Don't forget the new health care requirements
wink.gif
!

Just kidding (kind of)


In MY opinion, you are going to have to offer something better, or different than the guy down the street (a niche perhaps? any equipment not immediately available in the area?). Maybe you should look at size capacity restraints in your locale, and offer something more?
Higher quality (if an issue), faster turnaround (read material inventory), better customer service, better warranty (if applicable), etc. etc.

Do you have any contacts that may be able to get you some work? Would you be better off having a product, and replacement parts to offer?

Cold calling, and door knocking is not a good return on your time/effort, depending on your area of expertise.

Unless a consumer is not happy with their supplier, why would they give you the work? Not trying to piss on your cornflakes here, but you are going to have to do, or offer something better to get the work away from the next guy.
 
#12
Re: starting an aero/space machine shop ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Teggy1</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: black_ump</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Teggy1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you can finance it,........ I'm jealous! Your talking major $$$$$. I am in the buy it pay for it process, before I decide to try to make a living at it. I've wrapped up about 15k and barely have anything. Just manual mill (1997 Lagun FTV-2) and a lathe (2004 Kent 13X40) and some tooling.

I figure, bare bones, to open the doors, with the equipment I want, I am going to be in the $40K range, with NO CNC.

By Aerospace are you talking any Titanium? Pretty spendy CNC equipment to handle that stuff for any amount of time. I believe Boeing spent alot to have Mori build a CNC mill for their titanium parts. Although I am sure these are larger parts, machine dynamics are a big part of titanium, from what I have read on the subject (no 1st hand experience).

Good luck, I hope you can do it (gives me some more encouragement), just be ready for some big bills!

</div></div>

well i figure two small lathes all my tooling,bar feeders and just about every thing needed to get two small lathes going and have money to put tword a building (renting a building) and have enough money for any thing unexpected and to <span style="font-weight: bold">pay two guys</span> to run these machines and an inspector and every thing id say 200k will do it providing i dont spend more then 40k per lathe ( have seen some nice mazak qt's for good deals lately)

id say two lathes should turn enough business to get more business and ill slowly grow or at least stay steady

thanks for the "street" version of the requirements i guess either i go do that or i pay some one who has done that or is willing to do that.

</div></div>

Don't forget the new health care requirements
wink.gif
!

Just kidding (kind of)


In MY opinion, you are going to have to offer something better, or different than the guy down the street (a niche perhaps? any equipment not immediately available in the area?). Maybe you should look at size capacity restraints in your locale, and offer something more?
Higher quality (if an issue), faster turnaround (read material inventory), better customer service, better warranty (if applicable), etc. etc.

Do you have any contacts that may be able to get you some work? Would you be better off having a product, and replacement parts to offer?

Cold calling, and door knocking is not a good return on your time/effort, depending on your area of expertise.

Unless a consumer is not happy with their supplier, why would they give you the work? Not trying to piss on your cornflakes here, but you are going to have to do, or offer something better to get the work away from the next guy.
</div></div>


you are spot on, and didnt piss me off... my goal is quality and time... the best quality and the quickest time.

I know the shop i worked at got hit hard with some quality issues on some vary simple parts.. guys doing more rocking out then watching wtf they where doing.

I would love to go into the business of making like arms and parts for quads and various rifle parts.. but people normal people do not need such things... but air planes and electrical places need their parts planes must fly and people depend on electric its just a more stable business i guess is what iam trying to say their will always be work out their

iam just uneasy about the start up, i mean it seems to easy sort of like to good to be true. getting the certifications seems kinda hard and then applying for business seems kinda hard other then that the rest seems pretty cut and dry
 
#13
Re: starting an aero/space machine shop ?

AS9100 is similar to ISO, but it is an Aerospace Standard.

FAA repair station has their own set of rules and is full of paper work.

Another approach is to start your own machine shop and work for someone else that gets the contracts. Plenty of places like that. The company I work for offloads a lot of work to other companies. We still have one machine shop that solely does work for us. Another which was mostly lathe shop ended up being bought by us.

There are also people that specialize in getting govt contracts. One perk if you are a veteran, woman, small business, minority, etc., is that you can place higher bids than a large company and still win the contract.
 
#14
Re: starting an aero/space machine shop ?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Retoocs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">AS9100 is similar to ISO, but it is an Aerospace Standard.

FAA repair station has their own set of rules and is full of paper work.

Another approach is to start your own machine shop and work for someone else that gets the contracts. Plenty of places like that. The company I work for offloads a lot of work to other companies. We still have one machine shop that solely does work for us. Another which was mostly lathe shop ended up being bought by us.

There are also people that specialize in getting govt contracts. One perk if you are a veteran, woman, small business, minority, etc., is that you can place higher bids than a large company and still win the contract. </div></div>


i did work for some one that got contracts for 4 years, but i wasnt sure how they got them ? i was just a monkey and pushed buttons
 
#15
Re: starting an aero/space machine shop ?

Couple of quick points:

1. Employees cost a lot of money (roughly figure 1.3 x hourly wage). When they call in sick, that means you'll be running their machine or stuff won't get done. That means whatever you were going to do is not getting done. You'll get to do one or the other "later." Necessary evil when you only have a few employees.
2. Money (loans) might be hard to come by if you don't have some money already, or guaranteed work. You'll also get to sign a personal guarantee on the loans if you can get them. That means YOU, not the business.
3. Making cool parts is only fun for so long.
4. Lathe work can be really really really cut throat in price
5. Good, prompt, and honest customer service goes a long way. At the end of the day, you aren't making parts. Anybody can do that. You're dealing with people.

My .02 anyway. Best of luck to you if you go for it.

And yes, I own a machine shop (a job shop)
 
#17
Re: starting an aero/space machine shop ?

Been there done that.........

Honestly, 200k is a drop in the bucket.

You'd be ahead to get a job shop up and rolling or your own product line that you could move to a major distributor before you started going after ISO9001 certs.

If you're up and running someone else' parts or your own product line, you can use that opportunity to get your shop up to speed on the ISO while you're making money.

First and foremost though, keep employees to a minimum to begin with. Your entire nest egg can be ate up with payroll liabilities in nothing flat.

Do the machine work yourself, bring in a trainee for low wage to assist in the grunt work and use a payroll company to handle his paycheck. Start bringing some coin in and then get a good machinist and keep using the payroll company as you add on employees, even a bookkeeper. Why you ask? Because if your bookkeeper screws up your payroll, you're responsible, but if you vend it out, they are. Also, payroll companies around here can take care of it for about a 1 per hour per employee. You won't find a bookkeeper who can do it for less and you'd still be liable if she screws it up.

Put a mill or a mill and a lathe on the floor, so you're not bombarded with too many machine tool payments every month eating on the overhead. Expand as the work demands it and get some advice about equipment depreciation, versus monthly payments and maintenance. Meaning, you need to know how to operate your depreciable expenses in such a manner that you're not getting hammered on your taxes. Owning a machine outright can be good, but not having the ability to right off an interest expense, as well as the standard depreciation, can have you paying uncle sam enough money that you could have had a brand new piece of equipment on the floor making parts better and faster, as well as having more money in your pocket. This method can also reduce the cash assets being depleted so quickly too.

There's a lot more to running a machine shop than machining.
 
#19
Re: starting an aero/space machine shop ?

Lots of good info up above..One thing you will need also is all the Mil spec books, and when you get Govt contracts for aircraft parts, they never give u the prints..you have to get them yourself(can run alot of $$). I ran a shop for several years we did alot of Mil aircraft parts..its not an easy bizness to get into.. you will need a qualified full time QC guy, along with the cert.. back in 2000, we were going for ISO(used to run mil-45208A) and the cost was about $100k to get ot done by an outside firm..

Also, after you quote about 15 jobs a day, for a couple of months you may get a few.. then it will take time to buy the forgings(sometimes they supply them..sometimes they aren't available)..all in all, most contracts take 3-12 months to finish and get paid for.

Its a hard biz to get into..Alot of shops going under that have been doing it for dozens of years. you have to have a hook. Ours was we had large horizontal CNC mills..and we took on the big parts alot of other shops could not do.

The way to make a small fortune in manufacturing, is to start with a large fortune.

Good luck..I applaud anyone willing to try..:) If you have the drive and skills, you will do alright.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

MK20
Starting a small casting company - need feedback
Replies
4
Views
290
R_A_W
R_A_W
Buck Wilde
Aero Precision LR308 Upper w/out BCG, or Pricier Complete Upper?
Replies
12
Views
561
Ex E6
Ex E6
A
Thunderbeast RR end cap adapter group buy - 338 ultra and magnus
Replies
3
Views
328
Archimedes
A
mark5pt56
Rugged Obsidian-Deadair DA458(Xeno)?
Replies
0
Views
169
mark5pt56
mark5pt56
Smokeshot
AR-15 Ranking
Replies
83
Views
3K
Smokeshot
Smokeshot
Top Bottom
Back
Home
Forums
Merch
Alerts