No. I just don’t want you and your overlords to tell me what to do with my life and steal any wealth that I’ve created for myself
Stateless is the way to go. Change my mind...
- Thread starter The D
- Start date
for the ones who are all for a "new non-govt" etc (im all for limiting govt, prob more than the next guy)
most of the arguments i have listen to over the years make sense to a certain point
but what i have never gotten a strait answer to is how do:
the streets get paved
teachers get paid
banking systems work
military/defense budget
medicines
operating rooms
cancer treatments
ambulances
baby formula
textiles
the list goes on
all things needed for a society to function in the real world not just a small town of people in the woods
like most people that say their off the grid and out of society...they ONLY go to town for fuel and food...
ummm.. you are counting on the same society for your basic needs that you say you dont need
if there is a extremely limited govt (good or bad) then $ = power...that creates oligarchs
sooner or later there are haves and have nots
most of the arguments i have listen to over the years make sense to a certain point
but what i have never gotten a strait answer to is how do:
the streets get paved
teachers get paid
banking systems work
military/defense budget
medicines
operating rooms
cancer treatments
ambulances
baby formula
textiles
the list goes on
all things needed for a society to function in the real world not just a small town of people in the woods
like most people that say their off the grid and out of society...they ONLY go to town for fuel and food...
ummm.. you are counting on the same society for your basic needs that you say you dont need
if there is a extremely limited govt (good or bad) then $ = power...that creates oligarchs
sooner or later there are haves and have nots
Those are the only ones that the government needs to be involved in, and the first one is suspect.
All the rest are things that can be dealt with between private individuals. ESPECIALLY the healthcare stuff, that needs to be private or you WILL bankrupt your government no matter how you try as is shown by everyone that tries to get the government involved in it.
I am against the naysayers you can do it if you can dream it you could maybe get it right and make it you really never know till you blow your self up I mean you never know till you try .
Hey they trying it in Seattle. Looks like a shithole but they trying it.
I mentioned this in the Seattle thread. The best thing that could happen is that these clowns are allowed to try. Remove anyone that may still be there that doesn’t want to be there, let anyone in that wants to come in. Let’s see if they can be productive and create some wealth. I mean, their leader is an internet rapper. They should be able to figure it out...
You pretty much have to have the haves and have nots, or at least the betters and the not so betters otherwise you violate the basic law of nature that the entire planet from humans to animals to plants down to viruses and bacteria work off of.
There has to be a reward for being better / evolving more / working harder / being smarter and the inverse for the opposite of those or everything collapses.
Maybe in a different universe where the laws of nature are totally different perfect equality could exist, but not in this universe.
Of the few examples I listed unless the government is bankrolling a portion of the dollars you should expect a degradation of services.
The roads may get paved but will the workers have a pension?
The immediate service is always attainable it’s the add ins that cause the issues.
If we are ok with a person dying in the street (extreme example) or having a guy who worked minimum wage his whole life be homeless (another extreme example) utopia works.
Once there is a agreed basic quality of life it the first crack in the damn.
The US infrastructure was and is built on debt. Before FDR spent like a drunken sailor in the late 30’s there wasn’t a international highway system.
There was free market and entrepreneurs around but there wasn’t a profit to be made or a person to pay for it.
People always start at “right now”, when the machine is rolling. They never start from ground zero.
You sure seem in love with big government...……...
Here's a list of "government" services that are provided by private business in my town and county:
- trash collection
- cable/internet/phone service
- electricity generation and distribution
- natural gas distribution
- hospitals
- pharmacies
- medical and dental services
- package and parcel delivery (no reason they couldn't do private correspondence as well, except .gov monopoly)
- education (private schools)
- road and street maintenance (local gov pays them, no reason we could pay them directly)
The government should NOT be involved in pensions, that should be handled privately. If you want a retirement account, then make one yourself and stick x amount of earnings into it. The Public Pension BS is basically bankrupting every state / country that tries it and so they devolve to class warfare, means testing, assets testing etc, to try to whittle it down before it goes bust.
Again NOT the government's business, that is a matter best privately handled. You don't want to be homeless then figure that stuff out years before.
You cannot have the government guarantee or provide any "basic quality of life" that requires somebody else to pay for it.
That perversion is what lead us to this point. Originally it was understood the government made sure you were free to enjoy your rights and the live / die / sink / swim / starve / prosper was up to you and fate.
There were plenty of roads before that evil FDR came into power.
Also FDR and his government actually are proven to have made the depression last much longer than if they had not messed around with stuff.
Interestingly enough most of the new highway roads here are privately built and you can choose to pay for them if you want to use them or go on another route using older/smaller/slower government owned roads. (In some cases also the citizens agree to pay extra to enhance the government owned roads).
There is a strong argument for there being some government built and owned roads to ensure everyone is free to travel. That is something the population should decide if they want, how much they want and how they want to pay for it, and keep it to a very narrow scope of approved project / funding.
funny part is the answers you gave point by point is exactly why every Utopian society fails...lol
the first time a person sees a homeless guy on the street it all starts down hill.
if they all thought like "you" it might last a generation or 2, but that will never happen on a grand enough scale.
fun to talk about though...better than whats the best $5000 scope
the first time a person sees a homeless guy on the street it all starts down hill.
if they all thought like "you" it might last a generation or 2, but that will never happen on a grand enough scale.
fun to talk about though...better than whats the best $5000 scope
not a statist at all, as i said before i dislike big government as much as the next guy
being in the pharma industry i deal with big brother more than the average business owner
any and all letter agencies except for the BATF comes for a yearly visit.
because im considered a essential business i will most likely be dealing with homeland security in the near future, with trump calling for a return of pharma and the subsequent possible data breaches/stolen intellectual property (china). which think is a great move, and have been saying for years.
one of my majors was economics
i understand the limit of certain monetary policies more than the next guy
when it comes down to it all that matters is money, happy thoughts and rainbows come and go..its the dollar that wins
Don't try to make a Utopian society, that will never work, just make a good one.
It all falls apart when the people see somebody in need and instead of reaching into their own pockets to give to the person they want to give charity to, they start to think it would be a good idea to have some government agency with guns take the money out of somebody else's pocket for whatever "charity" they want to give.
Also when the homeless starts demanding that it's their "right" to have the government use force to take other people's money to hand it over to them.
You cannot have the government be in the wealth redistribution business.
@308pirate
copy and past changed it to bold..
the streets get paved - private businesses contracted by private individuals: as said before, you are not aware of the costs, as well as the regs. thickness of pavement, max incline, drainage. whos going to make sure the road is stong enough, the guy trying to make a profit..sounds gullible to me
teachers get paid - private businesses contracted by private individuals, how do you think my kid gets educated?: maybe look outside your little world
banking systems work - banks are private businesses, what do you need government to do here except enforce private contracts?: you think bank will work properly if the fed isnt creating law and monitoring them
military/defense budget - this is a legitimate function of government
medicines - private businesses: wrong again : "For the first time in the post–World War II era, the federal government no longer funds a majority of the basic research carried out in the United States. Data from ongoing surveys by the National Science Foundation (NSF) show that federal agencies provided only 44% of the $86 billion spent on basic research in 2015. The federal share, which topped 70% throughout the 1960s and ’70s, stood at 61% as recently as 2004 before falling below 50% in 2013. "
operating rooms - private businesses: the room yes who writes the check for the 85 year old guy on medicare govt
cancer treatments - private businesses: same as above, some treatments a over $1000 per 500ml per treatment
ambulances - private businesses: not sure,but your prob correct
baby formula - private businesses: FDA regulates potency and facilities. if not you buy it from china that was caught putting cardboard in formula
textiles - private businesses: true oldest trade
the list goes on - and the answer is almost always the fucking same: private enterprise and a free (truly free) market
all things needed for a society to function in the real world not just a small town of people in the woods - private businesses
like most people that say their off the grid and out of society...they ONLY go to town for fuel and food...
ummm.. you are counting on the same society for your basic needs that you say you dont need - what part of private businesses do you not understand: yes private business that functions in the established govt framework, i understand private business...i own a private business.
if there is a extremely limited govt (good or bad) then $ = power...that creates oligarchs - oligarchs depend on a powerful government that they can corrupt. its human nature, happened in capitalism as well.
example, GM said seat belts are not needed because "they might wrinkle a mans tie on the way to work"..whats good for GM is good for america
sooner or later there are haves and have nots - there always have been haves and have nots. more government makes that problem worse: then whats your suggestion for the have nots?
i see a lot of private business answers but no real solutions on how it functions and regulates.
what would you do with a homeless man that refuses to sleep in a shelter because he is "crazy".
will you lock him up anyway taking away his rights?
let him die and rot on the street?
do you hope a magical private business will show up and make profit off a homeless man?
maybe the locals will move out of the area refusing to pay for the homeless man private business and now the private business has empty stores and no rent coming in because its like CHAZ right now.
but then the same person says...get the cops and national guard and lock up all those protesters
copy and past changed it to bold..
the streets get paved - private businesses contracted by private individuals: as said before, you are not aware of the costs, as well as the regs. thickness of pavement, max incline, drainage. whos going to make sure the road is stong enough, the guy trying to make a profit..sounds gullible to me
teachers get paid - private businesses contracted by private individuals, how do you think my kid gets educated?: maybe look outside your little world
banking systems work - banks are private businesses, what do you need government to do here except enforce private contracts?: you think bank will work properly if the fed isnt creating law and monitoring them
military/defense budget - this is a legitimate function of government
medicines - private businesses: wrong again : "For the first time in the post–World War II era, the federal government no longer funds a majority of the basic research carried out in the United States. Data from ongoing surveys by the National Science Foundation (NSF) show that federal agencies provided only 44% of the $86 billion spent on basic research in 2015. The federal share, which topped 70% throughout the 1960s and ’70s, stood at 61% as recently as 2004 before falling below 50% in 2013. "
operating rooms - private businesses: the room yes who writes the check for the 85 year old guy on medicare govt
cancer treatments - private businesses: same as above, some treatments a over $1000 per 500ml per treatment
ambulances - private businesses: not sure,but your prob correct
baby formula - private businesses: FDA regulates potency and facilities. if not you buy it from china that was caught putting cardboard in formula
textiles - private businesses: true oldest trade
the list goes on - and the answer is almost always the fucking same: private enterprise and a free (truly free) market
all things needed for a society to function in the real world not just a small town of people in the woods - private businesses
like most people that say their off the grid and out of society...they ONLY go to town for fuel and food...
ummm.. you are counting on the same society for your basic needs that you say you dont need - what part of private businesses do you not understand: yes private business that functions in the established govt framework, i understand private business...i own a private business.
if there is a extremely limited govt (good or bad) then $ = power...that creates oligarchs - oligarchs depend on a powerful government that they can corrupt. its human nature, happened in capitalism as well.
example, GM said seat belts are not needed because "they might wrinkle a mans tie on the way to work"..whats good for GM is good for america
sooner or later there are haves and have nots - there always have been haves and have nots. more government makes that problem worse: then whats your suggestion for the have nots?
i see a lot of private business answers but no real solutions on how it functions and regulates.
what would you do with a homeless man that refuses to sleep in a shelter because he is "crazy".
will you lock him up anyway taking away his rights?
let him die and rot on the street?
do you hope a magical private business will show up and make profit off a homeless man?
maybe the locals will move out of the area refusing to pay for the homeless man private business and now the private business has empty stores and no rent coming in because its like CHAZ right now.
but then the same person says...get the cops and national guard and lock up all those protesters
How much does the federal government spend on “roads and bridges”? - Washington Examiner
Making the case for higher taxes in Roanoke, Virginia, July 13th, President Obama said, “Somebody invested in roads and bridges. If you’ve got a business — you didn’t build that. Somebody else made that happen.” But how much of the federal government’s budget is really spent on the “roads and...
www.washingtonexaminer.com
Our Federal Tax Dollars are completely looted and wasted. Never believe it when a leftist starts naming legitimate functions of government to justify their theft. Always demand to see the actual % of the budget and the true scope of their cupidity will be revealed.
Mises Institute
With the help of our extraordinary supporters, the Mises Institute is the world's leading supporter of the ideas of liberty and the Austrian School of
This will answer any and all economic questions anybody has.
Then I guess the stupid people wouldn't have and opportunity to breed? He's got my vote.
Will my family be safe if I move there? And how stable will the economy there be?
D
Deleted member 113831
Guest
You can have all the space and wealth and security that you want...as long as you can secure it for yourself.
Well, how do you feel about living in a facist/marxist police state?
It sounds fucking terrible
You should pay a little more attention to what I say, you’ll see that what you’re saying about me isn’t true
Here's the thing:
Regardless of the societal/economic model, it always follows a form of Pareto's law. Essentially, most of the wealth will gravitate toward a small segment of society. The only thing that really changes is that the "small segment" or who specifically comprises that, tends to have a lot of turnover.
The thing capitalism has going for it is that it has created far more wealth and lifted far more people than anything else and that isn't even debatable. Compare the standard of living for the bottom 5% in America and compare it to the bottom 5% anywhere else and you'll understand. Hell, the bottom 5% here live better than 95% of the others in the rest of the world! Look at the whole of Africa, India, South America, Middle East...
In the Soviet Union, everyone was equally poor except the party elite that lived lavishly. Kind of like NK today.
Take just one good look at CHAZ. That's your anarchist model in full bloom. Watch how it devolves. Even now, they are begging for others to "provide them". It all ends up in tribalism and Darwinism.
Regardless of the societal/economic model, it always follows a form of Pareto's law. Essentially, most of the wealth will gravitate toward a small segment of society. The only thing that really changes is that the "small segment" or who specifically comprises that, tends to have a lot of turnover.
The thing capitalism has going for it is that it has created far more wealth and lifted far more people than anything else and that isn't even debatable. Compare the standard of living for the bottom 5% in America and compare it to the bottom 5% anywhere else and you'll understand. Hell, the bottom 5% here live better than 95% of the others in the rest of the world! Look at the whole of Africa, India, South America, Middle East...
In the Soviet Union, everyone was equally poor except the party elite that lived lavishly. Kind of like NK today.
Take just one good look at CHAZ. That's your anarchist model in full bloom. Watch how it devolves. Even now, they are begging for others to "provide them". It all ends up in tribalism and Darwinism.
You were doing so well until the last few sentences. Strike up a conversation with any other an-caps and you will find their definition of anarchy is the same, or at least similar, to mine and the complete opposite of yours
Son of a.....
Anarchy on paper. Far right as its logical defination is no government.
Anarchy in reality. Far left as its just a bunch of dumb fucks that want whats yours and a government to do just that.
It’s literal translation is “no rulers”, no more and no less. Unfortunately the meaning has been co-opted and corrupted by jealous children
again people... why engage this fool? he is jumping for joy that he is getting your attention... he actually likes thinking he is teaching, or at the least that the attention he is getting provides him a chance to pontificate and internally feel valued... give yourselves a break, cut this fool loose..
Mob rule. Gang rule. And must conform or else. Depending where you are as basically every region would have differing opinions of how you should conduct your life.
In the end this ideology is only held by those living in some fucking dream world where its permissible to just ignore 1000s of years of human nature and our inherent flaws for evil.
Such systems would actually be more oppressive than what we have today.
JFC.
Is the way to go until a few thousand like minded people feel the area in which you live should be governed a certain way.
Abortion? Nope. LGBTQ? Nope. "Minorities"? Nope. Etc? Nope.
Be ok with this right? Since after all, this is what the community wants and has the means in which to enforce.
And if you aint with that, well we have a special place for you in this lime-lined ditch over here.
Abortion? Nope. LGBTQ? Nope. "Minorities"? Nope. Etc? Nope.
Be ok with this right? Since after all, this is what the community wants and has the means in which to enforce.
And if you aint with that, well we have a special place for you in this lime-lined ditch over here.
Be as you want, however you should stop and think. In 6000 years of recorded human history, has the idea of "no rulers" ever actually worked?
It doesn't even really work well in the animal world.
Even if it's just a single family, small group, or tribe, you'll usually find eventually for things to work there is "rulers" and "rules" of some sort or other.
Do you have any example of a society that ever successfully existed long term with "no rulers"?
(Any group of people that decides to be the ones to enforce "the rules" by some means or other is by definition "rulers")
Grey Goose is an example of excellent marketing, not of excellent spirits. There are many better vodkas, most at a lower price point.I’m an alcoholic not a connoisseur
I'm a connoisseur...
Hah! Yeah, I actually like the Costco Kirkland imported vodka as much as Goose.Grey Goose is an example of excellent marketing, not of excellent spirits. There are many better vodkas, most at a lower price point.
I'm a connoisseur...
oh! I ended up grabbing a couple bottles of the Three Palms— thanks again for the recommendation.
Maybe you should put me on ignore so I don’t trigger you with my wrongthink
Well, if my opinion about what anarchy could be fell in line with this description then yes, you would be correct. But it’s not, so you’re throwing the wrong darts at the wrong target
Finally, a coherent argument. This is a fair criticism because of the harsh nature of humanity until relatively recently. But there have been a few societies that lasted for a reasonably long period of time. The longest lived was ancient Ireland and that was ended when England invaded, not because they collapsed. Ancient Iceland is another but that didn’t last as long. They were a society of clans scattered across the island that met yearly to talk shop and there was a “leader” but he had no real authority to enforce any judgements. There have also been plenty of smaller and shorter lived societies that didn’t last for a number of reasons but that doesn’t necessarily mean it couldn’t work.
And fast forward to today. We all know any form of governance who’s economy is based on socialism will fail hard and kill millions of people. Anyone still accusing me of advocating this is fucking retarded, btw. We also know that societies who keep their gov out of the economy as much as possible are more prosperous, and by orders of magnitude. All you need to do is look at the Index of Economic Freedom to see which countries top the list, its the ones who let their citizens trade with the fewest restrictions. And there’s even better news. Sandy Springs, GA privatized almost all of their services in 2005 and the city is flourishing.
Something else we may be mixing up is the distinction between “leader” and “ruler”. Just because you listen to and follow a leader doesn’t exactly mean that person is a ruler. A difference comes when one person decides to strike out on their own. Are they allowed to leave? And when they are established wherever they are, are they forced to pay some form of tax or tribute?
After traveling to a match yesterday I experienced a perfect example of
anarchy.
I present you road construction meets human nature.
The size of the different vehicles represents the will to
do unto others because you can.
While I'm all but sure none were starving it lays bare the average
concerns and willingness to screw your neighbor to save a minute/seconds.
The shoulders represent a possible area to skirt the rules to gain advantage
over your peers.
Viewed from above the herd always acts in a predictable way.
This example isn't even when the chips are down for serious gains/outcomes.
R
anarchy.
I present you road construction meets human nature.
The size of the different vehicles represents the will to
do unto others because you can.
While I'm all but sure none were starving it lays bare the average
concerns and willingness to screw your neighbor to save a minute/seconds.
The shoulders represent a possible area to skirt the rules to gain advantage
over your peers.
Viewed from above the herd always acts in a predictable way.
This example isn't even when the chips are down for serious gains/outcomes.
R
Just finished listening to this on audible. It’s a really good explanation of why cooperation instead of aggression, at every level of society and the economy, creates more prosperity for everyone
