Static is making me crazy!!!
- Thread starter BuildingConceptsllc
- Start date
Good grief. Shoot that scale already. Thats the only answer at this point. Sure makes me happy to live at 10-20% humidity 300+ days a year.
Ionizer- anyone use one, specifically for their scale and relieving static?
I have a truly frustrating static problem. I've got the Matt, the grounding wires, the spray, I have the power cleaner, and if there was any other gadget that was supposed to work, I'd have that too. I can load anywhere from 3-4 up to maybe 12 ish rounds before the static shuts me down and...
www.snipershide.com
The barefoot loader just has cold feet, and still has static. Trying an ionizer for anyone ITT that is interested or has info. I linked that thread but I'm going to go copy and paste here to reduce clutter.
Post from deleted thread to combine:
I have a truly frustrating static problem. I've got the Matt, the grounding wires, the spray, I have the power cleaner, and if there was any other gadget that was supposed to work, I'd have that too. I can load anywhere from 3-4 up to maybe 12 ish rounds before the static shuts me down and messes up my scale. Once it starts, it just keeps getting worse and it makes me basically unable to load.
I looked into the issue as it relates to scales, and found an ionizer to be a popular item to address static in lab scales. Has anyone here used one and did it actually work?
I have a truly frustrating static problem. I've got the Matt, the grounding wires, the spray, I have the power cleaner, and if there was any other gadget that was supposed to work, I'd have that too. I can load anywhere from 3-4 up to maybe 12 ish rounds before the static shuts me down and messes up my scale. Once it starts, it just keeps getting worse and it makes me basically unable to load.
I looked into the issue as it relates to scales, and found an ionizer to be a popular item to address static in lab scales. Has anyone here used one and did it actually work?
Is that a possibility? I keep forgetting to call the manufacturer during business hours. It's just incredibly busy with work and they are closed by the time I can call. It will sit there all day on zero, then as soon as I start loading, it just builds static. At first it will go away, then it starts taking longer, then it doesn't . The only way to get rid of it is to turn the scale off then back on a few min later and that doesn't last long.
Probably a support person on email listed?
You don't just have devastating static problems every day as a rule in all but the dryest conditions.
Some heating systems like my old gas wall heater are bad about it. Luckily it's only used about 4 months a year and not constantly then.
But many of the remedies presented that you have tried probably all worked.
I seriously think the unit has a flaw at this point. I've had a hornady and now have a lyman scale and a rcbs powder dispenser and none predicted like yours on thier worst day.
I never had to resort to mats straps even, just a dryer sheet, bare foot and touch things on the bench often for all 3 brands.
Goodluck.
You don't just have devastating static problems every day as a rule in all but the dryest conditions.
Some heating systems like my old gas wall heater are bad about it. Luckily it's only used about 4 months a year and not constantly then.
But many of the remedies presented that you have tried probably all worked.
I seriously think the unit has a flaw at this point. I've had a hornady and now have a lyman scale and a rcbs powder dispenser and none predicted like yours on thier worst day.
I never had to resort to mats straps even, just a dryer sheet, bare foot and touch things on the bench often for all 3 brands.
Goodluck.
First off – Grounding wires ONLY work on conductive surfaces, they do nothing to control static build-up on non-conductive materials such as plastics. Exception plastics that have a static dissipative coating. Placing an item on a ESD mat also will not work for plastics that are NOT completely touching the mat.
Charge build up is dependent on how far apart the two materials are on a Triboelectric (ES) chart. Chart also shows if charge will be (+) of (-). IE plastics will generally take on a Neg charge – Which means a Neg ion ionizer would NOT work, need a de-ionizer that produces both (+) and (-) ions. (PS – gunpowder is not listed, BUT we know that it will charge plastic as it moves across it – LOL)
The “Charge” and Speed of build up in the home is largely dependent on (1) The two materials, (2) air currents and RH. RH should be above 30%, 50% better.
One problem with air blowing de-ionizers and electronic scales is that air currents also affect their accuracy. So probably would use them in a burst mode – on to neutralize, off when measuring.
Good de-ionizers can be expensive!
When Googling, verify that it produces BOTH (+) and (-) ions. Many Low cost units only produce (-) ions which will make matters worse for Plastics.
YUCHENGTECH Ionizing Air Blower Static Eliminator Fan Antistatic Ionizer ESD Electrostatic Discharge 110V - $105
Charge build up is dependent on how far apart the two materials are on a Triboelectric (ES) chart. Chart also shows if charge will be (+) of (-). IE plastics will generally take on a Neg charge – Which means a Neg ion ionizer would NOT work, need a de-ionizer that produces both (+) and (-) ions. (PS – gunpowder is not listed, BUT we know that it will charge plastic as it moves across it – LOL)
The “Charge” and Speed of build up in the home is largely dependent on (1) The two materials, (2) air currents and RH. RH should be above 30%, 50% better.
One problem with air blowing de-ionizers and electronic scales is that air currents also affect their accuracy. So probably would use them in a burst mode – on to neutralize, off when measuring.
Good de-ionizers can be expensive!
When Googling, verify that it produces BOTH (+) and (-) ions. Many Low cost units only produce (-) ions which will make matters worse for Plastics.
YUCHENGTECH Ionizing Air Blower Static Eliminator Fan Antistatic Ionizer ESD Electrostatic Discharge 110V - $105
So since you clearly actually know about this stuff, would you answer some questions for me?
I got the machine btw. This has basically ruined my reloading so it's a big deal to me. This is the only thing I do other than work or kids and what little time I have to do it is waisted fooling with this crap every single time. Perhaps you can help me figure it out. Here are some observations I've made, so you make of it what you will and share your thoughts, and I will be most appreciative.
It doesn't happen near as bad later at night. After say 9pm ish.
It seems like the static builds as a result of the trickler. It may be something else but that's just what it seems like with all the times I've done this.
My trickler sits half way on the static Matt and halfway on ghe quartz slab. (This was an issue before I had the scale sitting on the slab btw)
I can have a reducing effect on the static using a very wet paper towel. It doesn't get rid of it all the time but the moisture (usually a cleaner on paper towel wiping the static spray build up off the clear plastic housing )
When I turn the scale off, the longer the scale is off, the longer I will have to loaf before the static builds back up again.
It doesn't seem to be effected by what I wear ect... only stuff that you'd know would produce static , (like a robe on something) , otherwise it really doesn't seem to matter if I have shoes on or socks , or what have you.
Is there a way to introduce some mild current to a metal sheet or something and have everything on that and eliminate static or some similar idea? Maybe line everything with foil and ground that??? Just spit balling here.
Thank you for your time, I really do appreciate it.
Been there and done that. I live in a dry climate. I'm assuming that you do as well. Replaced my furnace/AC a couple of years ago, but elected not to replace the humidifier because they were charging too much for it. Planned to replace it myself, but put it off. As you might expect, I started having static issues with powder, scales, etc. Went through all of the other measures like grounding everything, static mats, no plastic clothing, etc. and it only made things a little better. Finally installed a good whole house humidifier (Aprilaire 700) and suddenly life was good again. Keeping my house at 30-40% RH is all that it took.
That's the thing, I live in the most humid place in the country... Alabama. Humidity is typically 70-90% here. It's dry at times in the winter but that isn't often.
...not trying to be trite, but it sounds like you have suffered considerably in both monetary & TIME loss considerations going "high-end" with that powder measuring/dispenser unit. If it was me, I would already be thinking of selling the unit off and reverting back to whatever I was using before, especially if it produced comparable results on target. 
I have thought about going back to my chargemaster quite a bit but when my scale v3 set up is working, it's so awesome and easy. I keep thinking that I will be able to figure it out and then it will be great.........not trying to be trite, but it sounds like you have suffered considerably in both monetary & TIME loss considerations going "high-end" with that powder measuring/dispenser unit. If it was me, I would already be thinking of selling the unit off and reverting back to whatever I was using before, especially if it produced comparable results on target.
My background in ESD comes from working on satellite instruments where I was required annual certification in controlling electrostatic build up to protect electronic components from ESD.
As I mentioned, Your problem is with the plastics used. I have a similar problem with a cheap Frankford Arsenal auto powder dispenser. My problem is only after I’m done and need to pour the unused powder back into its container. Why these companies do NOT use a static dissipative coating is beyond comprehension.
The static build-up on plastics is caused by (1) the air currents, even small, will leave the plastic with a Positive charge and (2) the flow of gunpowder over the plastics components. Since plastics are insulator grounding will NOT remove the static charge unless the plastic has a resistive coating bonded to it.
While keeping the RH above 45% will reduce Charge build-up it will have very little effect on reducing the build-up caused by the gunpowder flow over the plastic components – in fact, the gunpowder prefers LOW humidity.
The use of an ionizer is probably the ONLY way to remove the charge on the plastics. And this may only remove the charge where the ionized air contacts the plastic – ie on the outside and NOT the inside. Also, you might not be able to run the ionizer while using the scales as scales become inaccurate with air currents.
Myself I think I might try a”Milty 5036694022153 Zerostst Anti-static Gun” ($99). Could not find if it produces both (+) & (-) ions. Or the YUCHGTECH (Produces both ions) for $105.
As I mentioned, Your problem is with the plastics used. I have a similar problem with a cheap Frankford Arsenal auto powder dispenser. My problem is only after I’m done and need to pour the unused powder back into its container. Why these companies do NOT use a static dissipative coating is beyond comprehension.
The static build-up on plastics is caused by (1) the air currents, even small, will leave the plastic with a Positive charge and (2) the flow of gunpowder over the plastics components. Since plastics are insulator grounding will NOT remove the static charge unless the plastic has a resistive coating bonded to it.
While keeping the RH above 45% will reduce Charge build-up it will have very little effect on reducing the build-up caused by the gunpowder flow over the plastic components – in fact, the gunpowder prefers LOW humidity.
The use of an ionizer is probably the ONLY way to remove the charge on the plastics. And this may only remove the charge where the ionized air contacts the plastic – ie on the outside and NOT the inside. Also, you might not be able to run the ionizer while using the scales as scales become inaccurate with air currents.
Myself I think I might try a”Milty 5036694022153 Zerostst Anti-static Gun” ($99). Could not find if it produces both (+) & (-) ions. Or the YUCHGTECH (Produces both ions) for $105.
Have you tried taking the v3 somewhere else, such as work if you can or a friends, to see if it acts the same way there? Isolate it to either the scale or your location?
No I haven't. I could take it elsewhere in my house to try that or take it to my buddies gun shop and try it. That's not a bad idea, that would at least tell me if it's my area or if it's something with the scale.
I'm going to try it with a different configuration so that my trickler is all the way on the Matt.(that's how I knocked over my hopper and broke it) I thought about getting some aluminum foil and putting it on the table then grounding it, and setting everything on top of it too and seeing if that would work?
Hmmmm. Not sure about this... i understand what you are saying and if know what the tare function is but isn't it static that is causing the drift? It's always a negative amount shown if that helps... if I had it set to auto tare, wouldn't that cause accuracy issues? The static can change while it's dispensing powder and often does once it's a larger number than .02 or .04. It can start at .06 and then go up to .08 ect during the dispensing and trickling for one round. So if it tore the "weight" at .02 and then the amount went to .09 by the time it finished. The tare would be off by .07
Right?
The dryer sheet thing is over rated. I've tried to use those and they really didn't help much no matter what. At this point I'd stuff em down my shirt if I could load a hundred rounds in one sitting. Or even 50
So..... I have really had it with this and just decided to come by and get on the phone with A and D and see what they could tell me. Mr. Maxwell talked to me and is familiar with what we do with these scales and the autotrickler ect... He was really nice and genuinely is trying to help me, which is very cool.
He changed some settings on the scale with me on the phone going menu by menu and I am going to try it out and then let him know how it went. Just thought I'd update this thread with that. I will of course let yall know the results.
I am using the original hopper that's plastic since I broke my glass one. Not sure if that will make any difference here testing it.
He changed some settings on the scale with me on the phone going menu by menu and I am going to try it out and then let him know how it went. Just thought I'd update this thread with that. I will of course let yall know the results.
I am using the original hopper that's plastic since I broke my glass one. Not sure if that will make any difference here testing it.
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I didn't say I couldn't find an email address.
This is not the easiest thing to email about and actually get a reault. Going back and forth with all of the environment stuff and settings ect, it's just not a good email candidate.
I just got back with Maxwell at AD and we went through some settings and adjusted some things. (Which part of is what @Doom was talking about). It seems to have helped a good bit but I will have to take more time to play with a few things as well as do some experimenting as Mr Maxwell and I discussed . I also got some info about the scale and what does and does not effect accuracy. Definitely a worth while call and it sure seems like improvement. I will have to actually load for a bit to really know but so far I've dumped probably 30 or 40 cups of 43.5gr h4350 into a container and only had minimal static issues.
I will experiment with other locations in this room and then outside of this room and ser what I can find out. He said it could be just this one spot has a static trap but over all he wouldn't think I'd have static issues with my location and set up. Never know though, could be just this spot.
I’m not sure what you are saying and I do not have an autotrickler. Auto zero should not affect accuracy.
I don’t understand the description of the tare/zero moving while dispensing. Can you give a description of how you dispense and weigh your powder. Also, do you have an Autoloader?
Are you Loading for pistol using only the Auto Trickler?
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Yes I have an autotrickler. It first dumps powder at what you set it to, say 40gr then will use a trickler to get up to the actual load weight say 41.5gr.
So it may start out reading ( - .02) when it should say zero. Then after the trickler stops and you pull the powder charge off the scale, it may say (- .08) , and stop your powder charge .08 short of what it actually should be. I know because I've taken it off in that situation, turned the scale off, then back on and weighed it again, and it will weigh " -.08" from what it should weigh.
Got it.
First off it looks like Zero Tracking is off.
Zero tracking ( trc ) in instruction manual.
So we need to test the scale. To do this turn the scale on and wait at least 30 minutes. Assure that no air currents are blowing around the scale and and the plastic cover is in place. Calibrate the scale per instructions with external weights. Wipe the pan down with a lint free towel. The following steps should be performed preferably with nitrile gloves on. Place the pan on the weighing platform and allow the weight to stabilize. Press the 0/T button. The scale should show 0.00 grains. Pick a bullet and place it in the pan. Wait for the reading to stabilize. Record it’s weight. Remove the pan and bullet. Replace the empty pan on the scale weighing platform. Repeat the weighing process with the same bullet 20 times from the 0/T rezero. If you are familiar with Excel and can can calculate the Average Weight and standard deviation post it. If not post the data and I’ll do it. If you want we can do this in a conversation.
You mention static as the cause of zero drift. It can but the primary cause is usually temperature of the electronics. The load cell itself is self compensating. Another cause is changes in leveling. This can often occur when the scale is on a non secure surface like a workbench that has flexibility. My reloading is done in an outside storage building and the zero can change depending on where I Stand.
First off it looks like Zero Tracking is off.
Zero tracking ( trc ) in instruction manual.
So we need to test the scale. To do this turn the scale on and wait at least 30 minutes. Assure that no air currents are blowing around the scale and and the plastic cover is in place. Calibrate the scale per instructions with external weights. Wipe the pan down with a lint free towel. The following steps should be performed preferably with nitrile gloves on. Place the pan on the weighing platform and allow the weight to stabilize. Press the 0/T button. The scale should show 0.00 grains. Pick a bullet and place it in the pan. Wait for the reading to stabilize. Record it’s weight. Remove the pan and bullet. Replace the empty pan on the scale weighing platform. Repeat the weighing process with the same bullet 20 times from the 0/T rezero. If you are familiar with Excel and can can calculate the Average Weight and standard deviation post it. If not post the data and I’ll do it. If you want we can do this in a conversation.
You mention static as the cause of zero drift. It can but the primary cause is usually temperature of the electronics. The load cell itself is self compensating. Another cause is changes in leveling. This can often occur when the scale is on a non secure surface like a workbench that has flexibility. My reloading is done in an outside storage building and the zero can change depending on where I Stand.
So.... I have made some adjustments in the settings , one of them being the trc.
I will do the test and post the average , no proble. I think the settings changing has corrected a good bit of the issue. I also have the machine and have it mounted above about 5 feet from the scale and pointed at the scale. The fan effects the scale but my hope is to turn it away from the scale when using the scale and have a less static prone environment.
Thank you for your help, I really do appreciate it! I will do the bullet test but will have to wait until I get kids in bed. I put my boys to bed every night and pray over them and have since they were born, so it's something that takes a little time every night but I will definitely do it. Give me about an hour sir. Thank you again.
Good question. I wouldn't think so. The pad sits on a piece of quartz countertop so I don't think it moves or vibrates?
Ok, I did the bullet test after calibrating with my 100g weight.
My procedure was as follows.
Weigh bullet, record weight.
Place empty cup back and wait for scale to settle and read zero (which it did every time)
Then add bullet and record weight again
And so on until I'd weighed it 20 times.
All times but 1 it showed the exact same weight of 175.10. The one time it showed 175.08 but you could tell it was thinking about 175.08 a lot but always settled in 175.10 accept that one time. The average weight is 175.099 in this test case.
Btw- this time of night is always better for my issue, it just doesn't happen as bad when it's this late for whatever reason, However, I had zero issues tonight. I don't know if the settings did it or the setting plus the little Machine (I let it run and blow on my bench for an hour or two prior to doing this test and then turned it off while doing the test. I am starting to think this problem is finally solved between the two.
Also- I HAD MY HOUSE SHOES ON! NO MORE BAREFOOT LOADER FOR ME!!!
I set the cup back and let it go to zero before each weighing. I didn't hit the zero button before each one.
I used 2 I think for the trc
Keep the RH between 45-55%.
Buy a thermometer with a RH gauge.
If RH fall below 45% then buy a cheap humidifier and run it continuously until range hit.
If RH goes above 55% buy a dehumidifier to maintain range.
Solves static problem.
Buy a thermometer with a RH gauge.
If RH fall below 45% then buy a cheap humidifier and run it continuously until range hit.
If RH goes above 55% buy a dehumidifier to maintain range.
Solves static problem.
It's possible, but hard to keep humidity that low here. About 59% is as good as indoor can do on a consistent basis most of the year, but I have a split unit I'm the basement where I load and that keeps the humidity a little lower as it runs 24/7. I think I've got a much better situation now with the ion machine and the settings on the environmentals being changed slightly. There's something about this spot that just has higher static but I think it's much better now finally. I actually did a combination of several things with how I grounded my mat, the wrist band ground (the AD guy said that would help but barefoot would not help as much btw), the settings on the scale, and the ion machine. There's still a little static that showed up during my test but it went away quickly.
I do have a humidifier and dehu with which I could control the humidity to a high level but I can control it on my hvac system too which is only for this area, but I don't really want all this other crap in my already full basement.
The plan is to go shoot today a few different test loads so if that works out, then I will be loading again this week, then hopefully loading a large volume in the following week, so I will be able to test it out pretty well.
Sounds like you have the scale set up and functional. What is showing up that you refer to as static?
Same thing, just showing a negative reading on the scale whether it's weighing or sitting on zero. Nothing like it was before though and it went away.
So.... I wanted to update here since I got a lot of genuine help here. With the settings changes that @Doom mentioned,(the the AD CS tech helped me do over the phone) and the machine that @RetiredChief turned me on to, i have finally whipped this problem. I can now load and not get stopped 10 rounds in by static. Didn't ever figure out why I have the static in this location, but I didn't have to move my bench either so that's awesome. I hung the ionizer fan machine from the ceiling and turn that baby on low and can swivel it any way I want. I aim it towards my bench and scale while I am getting ready to load (I leave it running on low a good bit actually) and just turn it away from my scale when I'm actually loading.
If you have a static issue, this thing is well worth the price it was a little over $100 and is small and not too loud.
I can even load in any clothing situation now, and with shoes on too!
Anywho, thank you all for the input. This crap about drove me nuts and made me really stop reloading to a large extent. It really was a big deal to me and I appreciate the help very much!
Also the dramworx guy was awesome getting me a new hopper and super quick.
If you have a static issue, this thing is well worth the price it was a little over $100 and is small and not too loud.
I can even load in any clothing situation now, and with shoes on too!
Anywho, thank you all for the input. This crap about drove me nuts and made me really stop reloading to a large extent. It really was a big deal to me and I appreciate the help very much!
Also the dramworx guy was awesome getting me a new hopper and super quick.
Good now you can take the money saved on pedicures and buy more powder.
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