Previously I mention I had bad cold bore fliers till after a few shots then my groups tighten up to a pretty consistent 1/2-3/4 gun at 50yds pending on ammo I was using. Most hide members thought it was the carbon ring build up so I cleaned the hell out of it a few times and still my first shot is always way off it’s pretty dam Aggravating as I want to use it to kill varmints and can’t hit a fucking groundhog at 50 yds on the first shot. So what is going on am I not getting the carbon ring clean out all the way or is it a barrel issue which I have a hard time believing because it does shoot well after a few shots or even 1 shot. I’m open to suggestions
-
Having trouble using the site?
Contact support
Still have the problem
- Thread starter Hattrick
- Start date
What is known as the cold bore flyer, is due to the condition of the bore.
Not that it's cold, but that it's dry. The bullet interacts differently with the dry rifling,
than it does with the wet burn residue that is the result of powder/primer combustion particulates
and the sharp pressure drop that occurs in the barrel causing water condensation, creating mud.
Wet burn residue coats the rifling and changes the coefficient of friction so the following bullets are pushing a layer of mud down the bore and lubricating the bullets passage.
Easy to prove.
Fire a couple of shots with a rimfire and push a neoprene plug through the bore immediately after.
What gets pushed out is wet, grey mud.
I have an image or two stashed somewhere, if I can find 'em, I'll show what the mud looks like
on the nose of a round pushed through with a cleaning rod after firing a shot.
Found the link...
www.rimfirecentral.com
Not that it's cold, but that it's dry. The bullet interacts differently with the dry rifling,
than it does with the wet burn residue that is the result of powder/primer combustion particulates
and the sharp pressure drop that occurs in the barrel causing water condensation, creating mud.
Wet burn residue coats the rifling and changes the coefficient of friction so the following bullets are pushing a layer of mud down the bore and lubricating the bullets passage.
Easy to prove.
Fire a couple of shots with a rimfire and push a neoprene plug through the bore immediately after.
What gets pushed out is wet, grey mud.
I have an image or two stashed somewhere, if I can find 'em, I'll show what the mud looks like
on the nose of a round pushed through with a cleaning rod after firing a shot.
Found the link...
Barrel Break-in
The leade is clearly affected by thousands of rounds of shooting, and it is usually for the better. Calfee recounts the following, in a very folksy way, in his book. Over the years, I have had several instances where shooters have acquired really accurate old 52 Winchesters, 37 Remingtons, 54...
www.rimfirecentral.com
Last edited:
Are you cleaning it after each time you are using it? I know after I clean my Vudoo shoots like shit until I send some fresh Lapua bullet lube down the pipe. If you are cleaning after every outing then try more rounds between cleaning. I personally don't clean but every 500-750 rounds and there are some that will say that is to often.
I have a hard time believing a 6-8” cold bore flier is normal at 50yds for 22 lrf
You mean you're supposed to clean them???
I will clean the bolt after every outing. The barrel might get a bore snake every ~1k and a better cleaning every ~2k.
Yeah that seems like a little to much. I figured you where talking 1/2" to 1" flier.
I dont clean after every outing I only cleaned it because it became a problem supposedly due to the carbon ring. It’s CZ Varmint precision trainer. I’ve shot a ton of 22 rifles over the years and never had them missing this bad on first shot.
Dry bore and a rough bore finish will tear the surface off the bullet.
If the damage is at the heel, expect wild strays.
Wet burn residue fills over and smooths out that rough rifling
and you get more predictable trajectories.
If the damage is at the heel, expect wild strays.
Wet burn residue fills over and smooths out that rough rifling
and you get more predictable trajectories.
Is it a consistent flier? Same place each time or first shot wild and the rest settle in? I’ve seen guns with loose mounts throw a shot then settle in when the rail slid forward under recoil. Just throwing idea out there. 6-8” is a lot at 50 yards
This anecdotal as I don't have any scientific testing to prove this out, but my latest Vudoo, I sent off to Lapua which ran through some 300+ rounds through the barrel. I got it back home and did a very thorough cleaning of it, re-assembled the rifle / scope, and took it out to confirm zero and any sort of 'cold bore' shift. I sent 10 through the same spot on the paper.
The cleaning finished with Boretech C4, and then dry patches, so I guess the bore is 'dry' but whatever coating the Boretech C4 left on it.
To me I did find it interesting that I didn't have any sort of fouling shift.
For not Vudoos, my theory is that the barrel has a lot of imperfections, and that if you clean it out, you have to reseason it, like fill out any of those imperfections by shooting rounds through the bore to smooth it out to be consistent.
All these are just random hypothesis, one thing is you should consider is to get a bore scope and just see what's going on -
https://amzn.to/3HbRaIh is what I personally use when I'm curious if my rifle is behaving odd.
The cleaning finished with Boretech C4, and then dry patches, so I guess the bore is 'dry' but whatever coating the Boretech C4 left on it.
To me I did find it interesting that I didn't have any sort of fouling shift.
For not Vudoos, my theory is that the barrel has a lot of imperfections, and that if you clean it out, you have to reseason it, like fill out any of those imperfections by shooting rounds through the bore to smooth it out to be consistent.
All these are just random hypothesis, one thing is you should consider is to get a bore scope and just see what's going on -
https://amzn.to/3HbRaIh is what I personally use when I'm curious if my rifle is behaving odd.
The fliers aren’t repeatable most times i have no idea we’re they went. I will say it’s at its worst with high velocity loads. Frustrating I kinda like the feel of the gun but cant handle the cold bore shift. I was thinking of getting another barrel. guess it’s always the vudoo option kinda trying to avoid that
I agree with imperfections in a barrel but your vudoo should have little to none being a high end barrel. We used to group a lot of factory center fire rifles for years on end and we had to clean regularly to keep are Accuracy Consistent when we started shooting high end barrels the less you cleaned the better they shot. I’m going to try cleaning and scrubbing this thing again if i don’t see improvement ill have to make a decision on a new barrel or gun
More than likely you have a bad barrel! There are several parts on a rifle that can effect accuracy but the barrel is the only part that responds to cold bore shots, cleaning or the number of shots fired. A good barrel will shoot clean. Point of aim will fall back in after 2 or 3 fowling shots. Cold bore shots will almost always be high left around 11 Oclock. Most of the time less than 1 moa out at 50 yds. If your slinging cold bore shots and only getting 3/4 in groups after warm up shots I would have to say bad barrel big time!
At this point you don't have much to lose, try pulling a bore snake down the barrel after a few range sessions and see what happens. Or just jag a patch at the range. I'm with justin amateur on cold bore conditions, but I lean more to that you need to warm the residual lube left in your barrel up. If you get the bulk of it out with minimal work, maybe you will have a fresh start.
My reasoning, I shoot CCI SV and SK Standard Plus out of my Bergara, transitioning to SK from CCI is never an issue, reverse that order and 2-3 fouling shots are needed.
After cleaning the barrel with 7K combined rds down it, I will revisit this practice, because it was a PIA.
Also, if you are concerned whether you are getting the carbon ring cleaned out, buy a Teslong bore scope for the price of a brick of ammo, maybe less.
My reasoning, I shoot CCI SV and SK Standard Plus out of my Bergara, transitioning to SK from CCI is never an issue, reverse that order and 2-3 fouling shots are needed.
After cleaning the barrel with 7K combined rds down it, I will revisit this practice, because it was a PIA.
Also, if you are concerned whether you are getting the carbon ring cleaned out, buy a Teslong bore scope for the price of a brick of ammo, maybe less.
I will add a small amount of what I have seen in the last 2 years shooting the Rimfire game. I started out fully cleaning the barrel when shooting and groupings went south. I would pull a bore snake through the barrel every range session but no cleaning. I started noticing 20 -30 rounds for the barrel to come back in and hated wasting ammo.
I started cleaning and soaking the chamber only after each range session. 10-15 min of a wet mop in the chamber. Then a few short strokes with a nylon brush just a about the chamber distance plus 1-2 inches. Then I would push dry patches or pellets the length of the barrel until clean patches. Once I started this regiment my First round is right where I placed the cross hares from 50 out to 350 yards. It has not failed me yet. It does not matter if I shoot 50 rounds or 500 on a range session. The chamber area is clean for the next match or range trip. I will send 1 magazine of 15 rounds for sisters before the match.
I am shooting a RimX with Di Precision Kreiger barrel now. It is treated the same way. My first rifle was a Bergara B14r then 2 Vudoo's ( Ace & Bartline Barrels ). The voodoos had 2-3 magazines needed for a barrel to come back in on the cleaning. The Ace was quicker than the Bartline.
Your shift of 6-????? Inches is Monday blowing. Only thing I could say is if you can place 2 targets out at the same distance and see what it does. 1 target is first round only. Second target is groupings. Shoot 2-3 magazines and clean the chamber. Then go repeat the process. The next time clean the full barrel and repeat the process. Then just pull a snake down the barrel and repeat the process. Just my thinking on testing what the barrel is doing. Make sure you are also doing all this with the same ammo as well. Hyper velocity could be the issue too. I only shoot Cci Standard or SK ammo.
I started cleaning and soaking the chamber only after each range session. 10-15 min of a wet mop in the chamber. Then a few short strokes with a nylon brush just a about the chamber distance plus 1-2 inches. Then I would push dry patches or pellets the length of the barrel until clean patches. Once I started this regiment my First round is right where I placed the cross hares from 50 out to 350 yards. It has not failed me yet. It does not matter if I shoot 50 rounds or 500 on a range session. The chamber area is clean for the next match or range trip. I will send 1 magazine of 15 rounds for sisters before the match.
I am shooting a RimX with Di Precision Kreiger barrel now. It is treated the same way. My first rifle was a Bergara B14r then 2 Vudoo's ( Ace & Bartline Barrels ). The voodoos had 2-3 magazines needed for a barrel to come back in on the cleaning. The Ace was quicker than the Bartline.
Your shift of 6-????? Inches is Monday blowing. Only thing I could say is if you can place 2 targets out at the same distance and see what it does. 1 target is first round only. Second target is groupings. Shoot 2-3 magazines and clean the chamber. Then go repeat the process. The next time clean the full barrel and repeat the process. Then just pull a snake down the barrel and repeat the process. Just my thinking on testing what the barrel is doing. Make sure you are also doing all this with the same ammo as well. Hyper velocity could be the issue too. I only shoot Cci Standard or SK ammo.
I shoot only RFBR, so I clean after every outing and sometimes during a match if it's more then 2 cards. I have found that if I run a lightly oiled (Hoppes) patch down the bore after cleaning my first shot is much closer to my POA. YMMV
Milo makes a significant point - if you haven't looked at the bore with a scope, you don't really now what's going on in there. Could be your 'clean the heck ...' isn't getting the Carbon ring OR there's some fouling just beyond however deep you're cleaning. Or there's some Lead fouling that softens after a few shots.
As well, hafejd30 's 'loose mount' theory has merit. I've had a couple rifles with OEM mounts that were not Loctited and worked loose.
As well, hafejd30 's 'loose mount' theory has merit. I've had a couple rifles with OEM mounts that were not Loctited and worked loose.
I tend to like clean barrels, so I like your train of thought. But if I had to clean a barrel after every outing, it would most likely be in some landfill. The OP has identified 3 issues that I see, first his group size once running seems less than acceptable to most of us, so there may be a barrel issue. 2. Not running target ammo, most hyper velocity ammo is copper, a fair amount of vagueness on this subject. 3. He is not sure if his barrel is even getting cleaned.
Eliminating these one at a time may be wise here.
But my main reason for quoting you, I'd like to know where you are shooting and what conditions that your bullet impacts your point of aim from 50-to 350 yards, every time. A 3mph windspeed change will move a 22LR bullet 15", and it is not just horizontal. An 8mph full value wind is a 3 mil hold.
Last edited:
Teslong bore scope on Amazon would be a great benefit.($60) You most likely have a carbon ring. Very simple to see on a scope. It would be just before rifling. Seen a guy in PRS with this problem. Started as first shoot of the day. Then progressed to first shoot of stage. Ring was visible with bore scope. Once he removed the carbon ring the problem was gone. With working at GM dealership I picked up some top engine cleaner(metal can NOT green stuff). Couple drops on patch spin it around in chamber(patch though holder like a needle and thread). Let set for about 20 minutes. Nylon brush and dry patch’s. And it is gone.
Ok, to properly diagnose:
1.What gun?
2.Factory or aftermarket barrel?
3.What ammo?
4.What atmospherics?
5.Clean or dirty bore?
6.How long in between firing to get first shot flier?
7.Is the barrel free floated?
8.Have you dryfired on a spent case for the first shot to see if the crosshairs jump on the target?
9.Is the action bedded?
10.Has another shooter had the same flier with your gun?
11.Are you single loading or loading from a magazine?
12.Have you tried chambering but NOT firing the first round of stripped from the magazine, but instead eject it and move on to round 2?
13.Have you observed unfired rounds 1 & 2 or 3 to check for irregularities in damage to the bullet from the feeding cycle?
14.Have you compared first round firing pin strikes on case # 1 against the subsequent cases?
15.Have you slugged the bore?
16.Have you torqued your action screws?
17.What is you’re rest/set-up?
Last edited:
This^^^^. 6”-8” at 50 yards is a crazy amount. I would be looking for a new barrel. I get something like 0.1 to 0.2 mils off but that’s just an insane amount.
Once you let a carbon ring build up they’re a pain to get rid of. I had a good shooting rifle that started being not so good. I read about the carbon ring and decided to check it out. I had one so thick it had topography.
My previous method of cleaning consisted of cleaning after every outing with only cleaner on patches with a few strokes with a nylon brush every few outings. So I attacked the carbon ring with a brass brush, first I soaked a Tipton cleaning pellet with cleaner and let it soak on the ring for a couple hours and then scrubbed vigorously with a brass brush. This was then result.
I got most of it. Then I got some JB Bore Paste. I soaked the ring with Kroil for a little while, wrapped a patch soaked with Kroil around a nylon brush then covered it with the bore paste and scrubbed the ring are real good. It did the trick. There is a little faint carbon left, but I’m fine with that so long as it doesn’t affect accuracy.
The gun started shooting good again with no cold bore fliers.
I recently started shooting ARA Factory class. The first thing I noticed is everyone (almost everyone) would scrub their bores with brass brushes between every card (30-40 shots). My first match I didn’t. It was a Six card match. I shot a perfect card on the first one, first match ever. I didn’t bring cleaning equipment and wouldn’t have used it anyway because I didn’t think I needed to. Several people offered to let me use their stuff, but I declined. From the first card to the last there was a linear decline in score. Seeing is believing. I now clean between every card and it works.
Take that for what you will. I’m no expert just sharing my experience.
I got most of it. Then I got some JB Bore Paste. I soaked the ring with Kroil for a little while, wrapped a patch soaked with Kroil around a nylon brush then covered it with the bore paste and scrubbed the ring are real good. It did the trick. There is a little faint carbon left, but I’m fine with that so long as it doesn’t affect accuracy.
I recently started shooting ARA Factory class. The first thing I noticed is everyone (almost everyone) would scrub their bores with brass brushes between every card (30-40 shots). My first match I didn’t. It was a Six card match. I shot a perfect card on the first one, first match ever. I didn’t bring cleaning equipment and wouldn’t have used it anyway because I didn’t think I needed to. Several people offered to let me use their stuff, but I declined. From the first card to the last there was a linear decline in score. Seeing is believing. I now clean between every card and it works.
Take that for what you will. I’m no expert just sharing my experience.
I don't know all that much about 22LR accuracy, or more precise, what can be done to clean 22 barrels up. IMO, your barrel looks rough in that area, with both vertical and horizontal striations.
There are 2 camps on what a carbon ring is, the actual end of the chamber, or, as in this case, a carbon buildup where the rifling actually starts.
I don't know what you have into that rifle, but I would polish that area if it were mine. At least get a fresh start, leaving any carbon in that area is just going to act as a magnet for more.
The carbon ring forms where the bullet meets the brass case. You can’t really judge how a rifle will shoot by how the bore looks. Sometimes it’s better not to know. That particular rifle is a tack driver for a factory rifle, CZ 452. Actually it’s the best shooter out of the 13 CZ’s I have including two MTR’s.
This one looks like a tiny meth head beaver chewed out the leads. 457 24” At One
It did this on the first trip out with SK Pistol Match on a moderately windy day.
This one looks like a tiny meth head beaver chewed out the leads. 457 24” At One
It did this on the first trip out with SK Pistol Match on a moderately windy day.
I shoot in West Ky @ Kentucky Regulators Gun Club. I do account for wind & environmental with my kestrel. We have a 350 yard Rimfire only range and I spend a lot of time on it. It is only 10 miles from my house. From 100 - 350 I have 12", 18" & 20" plates. all have water lines painted on them and are spaced out in 25 yard increments. I am able to confirm all by data the morning of a match or the weekend before like I was doing yesterday. The wind is always the variable but when you can hold it and still stack a group the data is solid and I can trust it as long as I am calling a proper wind hold.
As far as cleaning the chamber it is a 20-30 min process that takes out the other variables. I know what the rifle will do on a clean chamber. Why not enter a match knowing exactly what is going to happen on the first trigger pull?? Life might happen and you can't get 20-30 rounds down the tube before the match starts. You should know what the first round is going to do and trust your setup 100%. I now have a setup I trust 100%.
Normal for most the 22 competition rifles I've ever had.
First shot high right. Keep shooting at same poa and watch each shot come to poa. Takes about 8 to get settled in for Score shooting to start.
Don't clean it and it'll always be seasoned. Mine at 60 rounds started to fall on accuracy.
First shot high right. Keep shooting at same poa and watch each shot come to poa. Takes about 8 to get settled in for Score shooting to start.
Don't clean it and it'll always be seasoned. Mine at 60 rounds started to fall on accuracy.
Thanks for asking but No I haven’t yet. This week I intend to make time it’s starting to get nice out here. I will set up a big target so I can track my flier. I’m going to check the mounts, action screw Torque etc.. I will post a few picks of groups. If I can’t get it right I may try a new barrel even tho that wasn’t in my Original plans.
I had trouble with a carbon ring build up in my first 22. It was used and the first owner was in the never clean a 22 camp. I was advised by a good gunsmith to soak a patch in Boretech carbon remover and slide the patch just past the chamber where the end of the case would be and let it sit for 15 minutes or so. It may take two or three applications. He also told me if the original owner used a lot of copper coated 22’s to plug the chamber with a rag and try one or two overnight applications of Wipe-Out foam.
This fixed my flyers. Not saying it will fix your but carbon rings are sometimes tough and I would try the bore cleaners before I bought a new barrel.
This fixed my flyers. Not saying it will fix your but carbon rings are sometimes tough and I would try the bore cleaners before I bought a new barrel.
