Stress on upper?

[CK1.0]

And, by that token, one should not be surprised by another who is eyebrows deep in minutia, but doesn’t have a grasp of basic concepts…

I don’t debate with Fudds at the range either…

Well, sorry, I don't think anyone realized the fucking Yoda of AR's was going to stop by this thread to be a dick.

Let me apologize in advance for anything else you happen to come across around here that you don't approve of. Please don't let anything you see dissuade you from acting like a fool who knows it all and adds nothing meaningful to discussions.

 

[hlee]

I understand them completely…

I’m not going to go back and quote where you implied that you couldn’t use a rifle length barrel because you had a mid length upper- as though the gas length is not completely determined by the barrel and the placement of the gas port on that barrel. As far as the rifle/carbine mismatch is concerned, the recoil system is in the lower, so…

Are you the master of the square block into the square hole building? What do you need to know about them? Nothing?

I’ve assembled a few, but I’m no master AR “builder.” From rifle +2 to pistol gas, with an assortment of spring lengths and weights, buffer lengths and weights, and rifle/carbine/pistol receiver extensions. I know enough to type less and read more. And, that the potential effects of bipod placement on receiver flex is so far down the list of insignificance that it’s not even interesting as an “academic exercise.”

Anyway, this thread is boring. I’m out.

 

[Gohring65]

View attachment 7766733

I’m not going to go back and quote where you implied that you couldn’t use a rifle length barrel because you had a mid length upper- as though the gas length is not completely determined by the barrel and the placement of the gas port on that barrel. As far as the rifle/carbine mismatch is concerned, the recoil system is in the lower, so…


I’ve assembled a few, but I’m no master AR “builder.” From rifle +2 to pistol gas, with an assortment of spring lengths and weights, buffer lengths and weights, and rifle/carbine/pistol receiver extensions. I know enough to type less and read more. And, that the potential effects of bipod placement on receiver flex is so far down the list of insignificance that it’s not even interesting as an “academic exercise.”

Anyway, this thread is boring. I’m out.

Dang!!
Just stuff to talk about. I’ve never tried anything but a rifle length gas system on a 20”. So what..

Did you lose your reaction rod?

I think I might know where it is…

 

[Rocketvapor]

Gohring65, most of what you are asking about has been tested and written about. Asking questions, on a Sniper forum that isn't about shooting 1, 2 and now 3 miles will bring out the 'Experts'.
Go Google, read up on other's 'Opinions' first.

Look for pressure curves, real test data on the various small frame AR cartridges (that's what you are asking about, right).
See what pressures with various barrel lengths, port size and location are being used.
You can spec a barrel any way you want. Some will work, some will not. There is probably a reason 'MOST' 16" barrels use midlength and 'MOST' 20" use rifle length. Most, but not all.
If someone spent the money for one of those high priced monolithic uppers in midlength I could see why they would hesitate going to rifle length gas in a longer barrel with the gas block hanging out there looking all stupid and such.
Besides, Flex loading is all hype and just a way to market higher priced uppers.

When you start talking about 'ACCURACY' you obviously can't be talking about a small frame AR as there isn't a cartridge that will fit that will be accurate at longer ranges. Not the .223, 224V, 22N, Grendel, or the various wildcats out there. 1000 yards is about the limit.
Custom bolt guns, off the shelf bolt guns, large frame AR's, and then at the bottom of the heap, the small frame LEGO AR.

I AM NOT an AR expert but I can change a tire. My first AR was for the wife (the Marine) that wanted something that LOOKED like what she used to train with. It was a 2 pin PSA 'Build' back in 2015. My next 'BUILD' was a HighPower look alike for 600 yard sling shooting.
Well, turns out I'm not as good with a sling as I though I was. My 600 yard 60 shot aggregate was a 481 with a single X.
I did shoot on an F-Class target instead of a highpower target though. I shot ten 10's that would have been X's on the correct target.

Now I can hardly wait to get back out and start again before I get too old

 

[Gohring65]

Gohring65, most of what you are asking about has been tested and written about. Asking questions, on a Sniper forum that isn't about shooting 1, 2 and now 3 miles will bring out the 'Experts'.
Go Google, read up on other's 'Opinions' first.

Look for pressure curves, real test data on the various small frame AR cartridges (that's what you are asking about, right).
See what pressures with various barrel lengths, port size and location are being used.
You can spec a barrel any way you want. Some will work, some will not. There is probably a reason 'MOST' 16" barrels use midlength and 'MOST' 20" use rifle length. Most, but not all.
If someone spent the money for one of those high priced monolithic uppers in midlength I could see why they would hesitate going to rifle length gas in a longer barrel with the gas block hanging out there looking all stupid and such.
Besides, Flex loading is all hype and just a way to market higher priced uppers.

When you start talking about 'ACCURACY' you obviously can't be talking about a small frame AR as there isn't a cartridge that will fit that will be accurate at longer ranges. Not the .223, 224V, 22N, Grendel, or the various wildcats out there. 1000 yards is about the limit.
Custom bolt guns, off the shelf bolt guns, large frame AR's, and then at the bottom of the heap, the small frame LEGO AR.

I AM NOT an AR expert but I can change a tire. My first AR was for the wife (the Marine) that wanted something that LOOKED like what she used to train with. It was a 2 pin PSA 'Build' back in 2015. My next 'BUILD' was a HighPower look alike for 600 yard sling shooting.
Well, turns out I'm not as good with a sling as I though I was. My 600 yard 60 shot aggregate was a 481 with a single X.
I did shoot on an F-Class target instead of a highpower target though. I shot ten 10's that would have been X's on the correct target. View attachment 7766794View attachment 7766795

Now I can hardly wait to get back out and start again before I get too old

I fully expected some thread killers to chime in.
Everything we talked about could be found on the internet. It would’ve been easy to Google it I guess. I like to talk about the stuff and the dialogue went very well for a while. It was more for a discussion other than, Arken sucks, Vortex warranty, which brand ???? Etc etc.
If anyone doesn’t want to talk about it. Move on…
I’ll post stuff like this often to open discussion, you might see me ask some dumb questions, but nine times out of ten it’s because it offers more info to anyone who might Google the topic. I hope when the snipershide thread comes up in Google search it won’t be another thread with a great topic, you click in it and it’s 125 pages of a pissing match troll thread.
Sometimes questions are for keeping the discussion alive, not necessarily a reflection of one’s knowledge. I never played around with gas tube length. I just always went middy for carbine and rifle for rifle length. Not really a big deal, not really a issue at all. So what! I can easily see gas port size would affect the function, I never really worried about it because playing the safety on gas tube length never gave me any problems so I never dig into it. Not a big deal at all. Anyone who knows me, knows I’m bored posting about this. They know if it was nice out, I would’ve been out testing this stuff. Weather sucks, and I just come off the two week forced vacation from the China flu, it was just something to post to pass the time..

 

[Rocketvapor]

Weather is supposed to be nice around Christmas but no way am I going to our 100yd local range, HoneyIsland.org, with all the new pew pew pew Christmas presents. Maybe a warm(ish) weekend in January.

You've probably noticed, but I look for cheap fixes for the potentially non-problems you run across with an AR.
Like stock wobble.
Here's a TI-7 that I got at half price because of a logo error on the pad.
Little piece of plastic shim and it don't move.

I bought a few Chinese handguards, the round ones in my pictures. Came with aluminum nuts so I got steel nuts that fit from Mentium-USA.
Didn't like the clearance to an Odin AGB I bought from a member here so out comes the Dremel and some Aluminum Black.

I'm new enough at this that as I get better, some of my old load development is invalid now. Until your groups are good, errors are shooter.
This was from 3 years ago. 100 yard, 1 MOA (most of them) 5 shot groups. Little black arrows indicate scope adjustment.
Red marks didn't make an MOA.

I like the 88s and will try the pointed 95 grain SMKs this spring.
Thinking after I Master 600 yards they will work for 1000.

You also won't see me running, jumping and shooting from barricades. Belly Bench Rest is more my speed
I've also tried to stir the pot a little with my 22N comments. I really like the round, duh.

Here's a timed 60 round practice session at 100 yards. I guess pretty close to an MOA except for a flier or two.
Also from 3 years ago. I'm better now, maybe, sort of.

Oh NO, posting target pictures. Gonna be downhill from here

 

[Gohring65]

Weather is supposed to be nice around Christmas but no way am I going to our 100yd local range, HoneyIsland.org, with all the new pew pew pew Christmas presents. Maybe a warm(ish) weekend in January.

Fugg all that! I don’t blame you.
I’d go in maybe Monday and scoop up all the brass on the ground. Lol

As far as posting pics.
Don’t worry, someone will be along shortly to criticize and add nothing to the context. They need to stroke their ego because mommy just left for work and she can’t do it.

 

[Gohring65]

Wonder what would happen if I used thin rubber on the bottom of the upper where it mates to the receiver making a interference fit that would take all of the slop out of the upper/lower interface?
I could see it changing the vibration and their influence, just don’t know if it would be a improvement.
What about bridging the rail with the receiver to take some of the pressure off the nut. I think something like a short scope riser long enough to add enough support with a picatinny rail lug in the upper and a lug in the forearm rail.

 

[Rocketvapor]

Some use a tension screw to take out slack. I like the U shaped shim that the Highpower guys use. Rubber/plastic might compress when fired. The accuwedge makes things seem tighter but doesn't really do anything.
Real builders use high dollar matched sets for a non-problem that has no impact on accuracy.
Can't expect much from cheap parts. Besides, AR's are designed to rattle.
One of the links earlier showed that the handle improved flex a little. Maybe a bridge would also.
What about receiver flex where the big ejection port is?

Maybe drill and tap for a reinforcing side plate? That way you could mount Lasers and flashlights directly to the receiver

My last BCA side charger upper was a Black Friday sale.
A complete upper, 7.62X39, Heavy barrel 16" complete with a BCG and 15" handguard for $219 shipped (now 239).
They want $222 for the receiver and BCG.

Gonna take it apart, put it in a light weight receiver and take the side charge and handguard drop in a 224V bolt (for converted Hagar/ 22N brass).

 

[sinister]

A monolithic upper (like the LMT) definitely has an advantage for minimal flex at the nut/barrel extension interface, although for standard uppers you'll find a rail with a longer and more rigid (not necessarily thicker, but longer) barrel nut the rail secures to will help considerably.

The GI Camp Perry-style free float rail in the photo a few posts above is a prime example. The USAMU's M16 free-float tubes are of heavier thickness steel tubing than commercial equivalents (Armalite, Rock River, White Oak, Compass Lake, etc.). That thick tube and heavy nut minimizes tube and upper flex. Geissele's longer nut and the cross section of the rail prevents rail flex as well.

A free-floated barrel will recoil and settle more consistently, regardless the external rail flex, supporting precision.

Where you need/want a rail with minimal flex is for your zeroed night-fighting laser aimers. You don't want a zeroed active aiming laser flexing skyward when loading a bipod. A rail or tube with a short nut, lighter tubing, or without a flex-resistant cross-section is going to bend more than a substantial or well thought-out system.

Midwest Industries has designed their Night Fighting rail (competing with their previous designs) with a longer nut, specifically addressing this perceived problem.

Putting your bipod towards the muzzle may give you the stability you might want, but you risk some "Hop" when the rifle cycles (depending on brake/compensator/suppressor).

A bipod closer to the shooter gives you some left-right pan flexibility if you're covering multiple targets.

 

[cloverleaf22]

Just want to chime in, I'd never even considered the handguard interface affecting accuracy on a FF handguard but this thread has really got me thinking.

Of the AR's I have, my aero enhanced has the least amount of flex when grabbing the barrel by the end and squeezing it towards the handguard. I know the barrel itself is not what is flexing with that little force; at first I thought it was the handguard, and while it may be to a degree, I think the receiver is also flexing. Just looking at a bare upper you can see the barrel nut threads seem like a weak point especially when you consider the barrel/handguard is acting as a big lever. I've also been doing a bit of searching and have noticed the large frames that people say are particularly accurate and/or shoot more like a bolt gun happen to have handguards that bolt to the receiver rather than interface with the barrel nut ( the OBR for example). Another thing to consider is the carry handle on the original stoner design likely acted as reinforcement for the front of the receiver. I'll definitely be going with either a monolithic setup or a handguard that bolts directly to the receiver like the aero enhanced and seekins for precision builds going forward.

 

[Neurotic]

This thread made me buy another Aero enhanced receiver.

There is a crazy sale on these right now if people want to try them out:
- Aero Enhanced Upper
- Aero 15" Handguard (you won't use the BAR barrel nut)

 

[Gohring65]

A mono upper with extra thick sidewalls and top rail, carbon barrel wit titanium brake, I would think the carbon barrel and titanium brake would take most of the barrel overhang weight/stresses away on the nut.
Or no brake at all.

 

[Rocketvapor]

That's a tempting deal.
The enhanced upper increases the cross section at the front of the receiver.
Wish there was a heavy walled side charger with the one piece nose.
Just not enough demand for heavier parts. Everyone seems to thin out parts as much as possible to save weight.
They'll probably be sold out before I decide to snap one up.

With my application light weight parts don't matter. The side charger is about 10.5 oz, and the cheap tube float tube with steel barrel nut is about 23 oz. The aluminum is OK I guess, used one on a 6.8 and a .223, but I like the steel best. I thinned the lock ring to put more tube threads on the nut.
Seems to hold that 5.5 pound barrel OK.

Still looking at that deal. Don't NEED another upper, but - - - - -

 

[Gohring65]

I picked up a bear creek 20” 1-7 upper and threw together a Anderson lower.
I don’t expect phenomenal accuracy out of this set up because of the slop in the system. I’m thinking it will respond better to changes in the pressure and remedies I have in mind.
I want to first test the Tubb final finish bullets and see if it will clean up the barrel and tighten groups. If I can get a baseline on group size, I’ll try out holding pressure different and different bipod/support locations.
Sumthin to do….

 

[JD. martin]

You’re not even in the same conversation bud.
You’re talking about stability of the platform, I’m talking about group size from inconsistent pressure introduced on the action, barrel and hand guard area, the barrel nut which is attached to a thin wall aluminum upper. We all know the farther the bipod the better for stability, but is it affecting group size. I say yes it is.

Damn man Is this some sick twisted joke. if ur hand guard an barrel nut assembly is that weak u have more problems than placement. Bipod as far out as u can get as the man said for stability ect I’m surprised that the hide has tore this irrelevant joke and ur self apart. Must be the holidays

 

[JsnSanko]

Wonder what would happen if I used thin rubber on the bottom of the upper where it mates to the receiver making a interference fit that would take all of the slop out of the upper/lower interface?
I could see it changing the vibration and their influence, just don’t know if it would be a improvement.
What about bridging the rail with the receiver to take some of the pressure off the nut. I think something like a short scope riser long enough to add enough support with a picatinny rail lug in the upper and a lug in the forearm rail.

Most of my lowers have take up screws with nylon that hit the back pin. Tightens then action up.

Mega and Aero forged.

 

[Rocketvapor]

AR15Accushim
http://www.wheeldiamond.com/AccuShim12.JPG

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Damn man Is this some sick twisted joke. if ur hand guard an barrel nut assembly is that weak u have more problems than placement. Bipod as far out as u can get as the man said for stability ect I’m surprised that the hide has tore this irrelevant joke and ur self apart. Must be the holidays

Interesting as the HMFIC of this forum is promoting a manufacture that makes this exact claim.

 

[carbonbased]

View attachment 7774401
Interesting as the HMFIC of this forum is promoting a manufacture that makes this exact claim.

This is interesting stuff. Could you post the link for that discussion you screenshotted? I can see it's on the Hide. I am going to also listen to #113 as someone suggested.

 

[carbonbased]

Found it (I think), the link is actually earlier in this thread: https://www.snipershide.com/precision-rifle/petite-white-black-swimsuits-for-women/

Strange URL, tho ha

 

[RUTGERS95]

Can I interest you in a boot fob to rest your muzzle on?
View attachment 7766712

this thread has gone full on arfcom which is not a compliment

that said, I'd not make of fudds considering the stupid $hit AR owners buy and spend on. Both are littered with morons