Guess you're not from the motherland.
A defect is a defect and must be removed from the batch for the greater good.
A defect is a defect and must be removed from the batch for the greater good.
Striations on brass after neck sizing - WHY?
- Thread starter GBMaryland
- Start date
So I ended up putting one of the dies in boretech copper remover... and let it sit overnight.
This was apparently not the best of ideas:
I then proceeded to buff the living shit out of everything to see if the remaining brass would come off the die:
And I have to be honest polishing the living shit out of that definitely worked...
However now I had all sorts of surface rust on the outside of that guy which was really pissing me off:
Ta freaking Da
This was apparently not the best of ideas:
I then proceeded to buff the living shit out of everything to see if the remaining brass would come off the die:
And I have to be honest polishing the living shit out of that definitely worked...
However now I had all sorts of surface rust on the outside of that guy which was really pissing me off:
Ta freaking Da
Did it acid etch the inside of the die? Cuz if it did then you’ll have the same problem all over again.
Nope... blocked that off... was very careful about the inside, which didn't seem to get screwed up. Of course, I polished the crap out of it...
6mm wool polishing head on a dremel... with Flitz.
Works great. Used a slightly larger one for the die body.
I have experienced the striations issue with various dies, especially neck sizing bushings and pistol dies. Regular cleaning with qtips and solvents typically doesn't get it all, even if they look clean to the naked eye and work better with less striations after such efforts. I thought just solvents would work. Then I looked at the entry area of the dies and bushings with a stereo microscope. Debris buildup, hard caked, remained. Invisible to the naked eye, but easy to see with magnification. Rotating the offending part in a wood lathe chuck and holding steel wool against that area works. A little bit of lube on the steel wool, and a little dowel to bear against the inside make it easy. Problem solved. Took me some decades and a stereo microscope to figure out what was going on.
Use Barnes bullets CR-10 bore cleaner or ammonia to get rid of brass. I replace mandrels on a regular basis. Neck size 5x then full length 1x. Use hornady spray lube for neck and FL. Spray on Q-tip do inside of neck. Been reloading for 48 years never annealed a case. Use mainly starline and lapua brass now and get incredible case life
Ok, was going to start a new thread on "Neck Striations" and decided to be a good SH'er and use the search function. I not only found this thread about the very same issue I'm having, started by my very good friend @GBMaryland, I note that I even posted to it! 
But WTF, I'm 70 and it was a year and a half ago....sigh.
I too use Redding FL dies (I blame GBMaryland for getting me into this whole metallic reloading quagmire) and have been reloading 6.5 CM in Hornady brass recovered from shooting factory ammo. I have never seen this on the Hornady brass thru a few reloadings on them so far. And I just looked again....nada striations. However, I have not been annealing the Hornady cases which may be a differentiating factor.
Fast forward a bit, and I now have a boat load of Laupa 6.5 CM brass, again recovered from shooting Berger factory ammo. I have a newish Bartlien 400MODBB 5R barrel and decided I'm going to prep and use this Lapua brass in it.
I did anneal this Lapua brass in an AMP (yes, @GBMaryland 's unit...since he got me into this tar pit, I feel guilt free borrowing his stuff! haha)
I also decided that I wanted to control neck tension (yes, @spife7980 my friend...interference fit haha) better so I also bought a 21st Century mandrel set/die. Hey, a good obsession is really just something to do with retired time on your hands. haha
So, I removed the entire decapping and expansion ball assembly and cleaned up the die with solvent. And yes, having just reread this thread, I do now understand that that is not sufficient if you pick up any brass in there.
For lube, I use Hornady One Shot Case Lube and no...its not Imperial "stroke your cases with lube" wax...but its easy to apply and I have had zero issues with cases being hard to size much less getting stuck.
So, I resized 400 cases and never noticed the striations in the neck (cause I'm an unobservant vegetable, apparently) until I went to mandrel them back open...and saw this!!
But, I'm going with @spife7980, @308pirate and others that this will not make a tinker's damn as to how they shoot. The inside of the necks are just fine and they do chamber and extract smoothly so I'm over the panic (oh my god!!...400 case!! LOL)
And yes, I do have a borescope so I just took a look at the inside of the neck area of the die....and I'm sort of embarrassed that I didn't notice this earlier because its not just a little bit of brass in there. Just didn't occur to me as it has NEVER happened with the Hornady stuff (thinner brass, not annealed, maybe?) And I don't believe that this accumulation just occurred from the Lapua brass as even the very first ones I sized have these striations. Or maybe it was the very first one...WTF knows.
I do have chamber brushes and mops and I was actually thinking about using Semichrome in there as I have in the garage from the past when polishing chrome on the Softail was the obsession of the day. Maybe I'll start with BoreTech Copper Remover on a mop and see how that works? Or maybe I need to get some of those 6 mm wool polishing brushes from @GBMaryland as there must be someway to blame him for all of this! 
Why didn't I just stick with just reloading shotshell....sigh.
For those of you as bored as I am who read this drivel, thank you. And yes, I am utterly open to comments, constructive or...since this is the Hide...otherwise.
But WTF, I'm 70 and it was a year and a half ago....sigh. I too use Redding FL dies (I blame GBMaryland for getting me into this whole metallic reloading quagmire
) and have been reloading 6.5 CM in Hornady brass recovered from shooting factory ammo. I have never seen this on the Hornady brass thru a few reloadings on them so far. And I just looked again....nada striations. However, I have not been annealing the Hornady cases which may be a differentiating factor. Fast forward a bit, and I now have a boat load of Laupa 6.5 CM brass, again recovered from shooting Berger factory ammo. I have a newish Bartlien 400MODBB 5R barrel and decided I'm going to prep and use this Lapua brass in it.
I did anneal this Lapua brass in an AMP (yes, @GBMaryland 's unit...since he got me into this tar pit, I feel guilt free borrowing his stuff!
haha)I also decided that I wanted to control neck tension (yes, @spife7980 my friend...interference fit
haha) better so I also bought a 21st Century mandrel set/die. Hey, a good obsession is really just something to do with retired time on your hands. hahaSo, I removed the entire decapping and expansion ball assembly and cleaned up the die with solvent. And yes, having just reread this thread, I do now understand that that is not sufficient if you pick up any brass in there.
For lube, I use Hornady One Shot Case Lube and no...its not Imperial "stroke your cases with lube" wax...but its easy to apply and I have had zero issues with cases being hard to size much less getting stuck.
So, I resized 400 cases and never noticed the striations in the neck (cause I'm an unobservant vegetable, apparently) until I went to mandrel them back open...and saw this!!
But, I'm going with @spife7980, @308pirate and others that this will not make a tinker's damn as to how they shoot. The inside of the necks are just fine and they do chamber and extract smoothly so I'm over the panic (oh my god!!...400 case!! LOL)
And yes, I do have a borescope so I just took a look at the inside of the neck area of the die....and I'm sort of embarrassed that I didn't notice this earlier because its not just a little bit of brass in there. Just didn't occur to me as it has NEVER happened with the Hornady stuff (thinner brass, not annealed, maybe?) And I don't believe that this accumulation just occurred from the Lapua brass as even the very first ones I sized have these striations. Or maybe it was the very first one...WTF knows.
I do have chamber brushes and mops and I was actually thinking about using Semichrome in there as I have in the garage from the past when polishing chrome on the Softail was the obsession of the day. Maybe I'll start with BoreTech Copper Remover on a mop and see how that works? Or maybe I need to get some of those 6 mm wool polishing brushes from @GBMaryland as there must be someway to blame him for all of this!
Why didn't I just stick with just reloading shotshell....sigh.
For those of you as bored as I am who read this drivel, thank you. And yes, I am utterly open to comments, constructive or...since this is the Hide...otherwise.
your brass has worms microscopic worms caution they are parasitic bugs that are transmittable to humans , close up they look like this
Ok, was going to start a new thread on "Neck Striations" and decided to be a good SH'er and use the search function. I not only found this thread about the very same issue I'm having, started by my very good friend @GBMaryland, I note that I even posted to it!
I too use Redding FL dies (I blame GBMaryland for getting me into this whole metallic reloading quagmire
Fast forward a bit, and I now have a boat load of Laupa 6.5 CM brass, again recovered from shooting Berger factory ammo. I have a newish Bartlien 400MODBB 5R barrel and decided I'm going to prep and use this Lapua brass in it.
I did anneal this Lapua brass in an AMP (yes, @GBMaryland 's unit...since he got me into this tar pit, I feel guilt free borrowing his stuff!
I also decided that I wanted to control neck tension (yes, @spife7980 my friend...interference fit
So, I removed the entire decapping and expansion ball assembly and cleaned up the die with solvent. And yes, having just reread this thread, I do now understand that that is not sufficient if you pick up any brass in there.
For lube, I use Hornady One Shot Case Lube and no...its not Imperial "stroke your cases with lube" wax...but its easy to apply and I have had zero issues with cases being hard to size much less getting stuck.
So, I resized 400 cases and never noticed the striations in the neck (cause I'm an unobservant vegetable, apparently) until I went to mandrel them back open...and saw this!!
View attachment 8001257
But, I'm going with @spife7980, @308pirate and others that this will not make a tinker's damn as to how they shoot. The inside of the necks are just fine and they do chamber and extract smoothly so I'm over the panic (oh my god!!...400 case!! LOL)
And yes, I do have a borescope so I just took a look at the inside of the neck area of the die....and I'm sort of embarrassed that I didn't notice this earlier because its not just a little bit of brass in there. Just didn't occur to me as it has NEVER happened with the Hornady stuff (thinner brass, not annealed, maybe?) And I don't believe that this accumulation just occurred from the Lapua brass as even the very first ones I sized have these striations. Or maybe it was the very first one...WTF knows.
View attachment 8001263View attachment 8001264View attachment 8001265
I do have chamber brushes and mops and I was actually thinking about using Semichrome in there as I have in the garage from the past when polishing chrome on the Softail was the obsession of the day. Maybe I'll start with BoreTech Copper Remover on a mop and see how that works? Or maybe I need to get some of those 6 mm wool polishing brushes from @GBMaryland as there must be someway to blame him for all of this!
Why didn't I just stick with just reloading shotshell....sigh.
For those of you as bored as I am who read this drivel, thank you. And yes, I am utterly open to comments, constructive or...since this is the Hide...otherwise.
Mount something in a drill and go to town round and round
I think Ill go do that now with some 600 lapping compound to my dies that do that, dont think Ive loaded ar since which is what that die is devoted for.
Ok, was going to start a new thread on "Neck Striations" and decided to be a good SH'er and use the search function. I not only found this thread about the very same issue I'm having, started by my very good friend @GBMaryland, I note that I even posted to it! But WTF, I'm 70 and it was a year and a half ago....sigh.
I had the same issue with my brass post getting an amp. Like factory Lapua annealing leaves the brass a bit more abrasive. I fixed the problem by no longer using dry lube and stroking my brass with imperial wax, including the neck. Switching to SAC bushings be it in a wilson die or their modular sizing die. The bushings have a taper to them that helps not cause doughnuts, the transition seems to be easier on the brass and subsequently a lot less brass builds up on those sharp corners. My other dies needed a good scrubbing with polish to get rid of the excess brass.
Brass will stick to your mandrels post annealing as well, and can cause the same thing on the inside of your case. I have reverted to either tumbling(dry) the shit out of the brass or using imperial on the mandrel. Now if I’m not using my sac die with a mandrel in it I’m rubbing some imperial on rim and running it through my mandrel before cleaning any lube off, then everything gets dry tumbled before it goes in the giraud
But WTF, I'm 70 and it was a year and a half ago....sigh. I too use Redding FL dies (I blame GBMaryland for getting me into this whole metallic reloading quagmire
Fast forward a bit, and I now have a boat load of Laupa 6.5 CM brass, again recovered from shooting Berger factory ammo. I have a newish Bartlien 400MODBB 5R barrel and decided I'm going to prep and use this Lapua brass in it.
I did anneal this Lapua brass in an AMP (yes, @GBMaryland 's unit...since he got me into this tar pit, I feel guilt free borrowing his stuff!
I also decided that I wanted to control neck tension (yes, @spife7980 my friend...interference fit
So, I removed the entire decapping and expansion ball assembly and cleaned up the die with solvent. And yes, having just reread this thread, I do now understand that that is not sufficient if you pick up any brass in there.
For lube, I use Hornady One Shot Case Lube and no...its not Imperial "stroke your cases with lube" wax...but its easy to apply and I have had zero issues with cases being hard to size much less getting stuck.
So, I resized 400 cases and never noticed the striations in the neck (cause I'm an unobservant vegetable, apparently) until I went to mandrel them back open...and saw this!!
View attachment 8001257
But, I'm going with @spife7980, @308pirate and others that this will not make a tinker's damn as to how they shoot. The inside of the necks are just fine and they do chamber and extract smoothly so I'm over the panic (oh my god!!...400 case!! LOL)
And yes, I do have a borescope so I just took a look at the inside of the neck area of the die....and I'm sort of embarrassed that I didn't notice this earlier because its not just a little bit of brass in there. Just didn't occur to me as it has NEVER happened with the Hornady stuff (thinner brass, not annealed, maybe?) And I don't believe that this accumulation just occurred from the Lapua brass as even the very first ones I sized have these striations. Or maybe it was the very first one...WTF knows.
View attachment 8001263View attachment 8001264View attachment 8001265
I do have chamber brushes and mops and I was actually thinking about using Semichrome in there as I have in the garage from the past when polishing chrome on the Softail was the obsession of the day. Maybe I'll start with BoreTech Copper Remover on a mop and see how that works? Or maybe I need to get some of those 6 mm wool polishing brushes from @GBMaryland as there must be someway to blame him for all of this!
Why didn't I just stick with just reloading shotshell....sigh.
For those of you as bored as I am who read this drivel, thank you. And yes, I am utterly open to comments, constructive or...since this is the Hide...otherwise.
I had the same issue with my brass post getting an amp. Like factory Lapua annealing leaves the brass a bit more abrasive. I fixed the problem by no longer using dry lube and stroking my brass with imperial wax, including the neck. Switching to SAC bushings be it in a wilson die or their modular sizing die. The bushings have a taper to them that helps not cause doughnuts, the transition seems to be easier on the brass and subsequently a lot less brass builds up on those sharp corners. My other dies needed a good scrubbing with polish to get rid of the excess brass.
Brass will stick to your mandrels post annealing as well, and can cause the same thing on the inside of your case. I have reverted to either tumbling(dry) the shit out of the brass or using imperial on the mandrel. Now if I’m not using my sac die with a mandrel in it I’m rubbing some imperial on rim and running it through my mandrel before cleaning any lube off, then everything gets dry tumbled before it goes in the giraud
Wow, I was going to wrap a patch around a nylon brush and use either 40x or Semichrome but decided to first put a bore mop with BoreTech Copper Remover and….in 15 minutes it was all gone. (note, what looks like a scratch is just a bit of thread from the patch)
Looking down the die, it appears that the neck area is very smooth but the borescope and magnified pics show roughness...I assume tooling marks when they were bored out. So, I'm still considering Semichrome on a patch/brush combo to maybe polish up a bit more. That's very fine polish and I've seen it used to polish injection molds for visual plastic products (motocross face masks, tear aways, and that sort of thing). So, I don't think I can hurt the die?
By dry lube you mean like Hornady One Shot or do you mean graphite?
Maybe I need to get some Imperial but damn I don't want to handle each case like Ali G "fingering me Julie" haha
Ah, didn't want to mention the slight raised "donut" inside at the neck/shoulder junction. The mandrel seems to be getting most/all of it out and I'm at a very consistent .0025 interference fit (yeah, neck tension but that was another thread! haha) measured with pin gauges.
I do ensure that when I lube the case prior to FL sizing, I get it in the necks also. I have also used the One Shot on the mandrel and have been keeping an eye on it but I don't see any brass build up. Again, maybe a jar of Imperial may be in my future.
I do tumble the hell out of my brass in walnut media...basically turn it on and go to sleep. WTF, my back gets me up every two/three hours max so I get...what, maybe 3-4 hours in the tumbler on them before any annealing.
I also have a Giraud and have been tumbling clean again and then trimming....any reason to not trim then tumble clean just before priming?
Thanks for the input, fellas.
Thanks...I did lube the die after I cleaned it prior to using it this time.
I have NOT chamfered the outside of the necks before sizing. I can see how that would be advantageous to avoiding this type of stuff.
But I really thought I wanted to trim AFTER FL sizing/mandrel because the Giraud indexes off of the shoulder, if I am correct. Now, a couple/few of thousands prob won't make a difference...but any view on this?
Thanks
Not trimming it, before sizing removing any peening on the outside edge of the neck.
If the die shaves brass off of the peened edge the brass particles stick in the die and cause galling
of the neck.
If the die shaves brass off of the peened edge the brass particles stick in the die and cause galling
of the neck.
All of mine do it, hornady, Redding etc… I have all types of brass it all does it. No effect of accuracy so I don’t sweat it
By dry lube I mean imperial graphite. I havnt messed much with different lube just been using imperial because it’s worked, and I have it. Not a fan of finger fucking every piece of brass, but I’m handling them anyways.
I don’t see any reason you couldnt trim then before priming. I definitely wouldn’t trim before sizing, your changing all your dimensions during the sizing process. I just trim after tumbling because I don’t want to be handling slimy brass anymore than once.
I’m always trying to make it easier but my process is as follows. Iv had the same problems you have seemed to be having.
Dry tumble if dirty
Anneal
Lube with imperial
FL size and mandrel(my sac dies do this in one step)
Dry tumble lube off
Giraud
Prime
This process has left me with the least amount of doughnuts, least brass/die problems.
Pin guages can lie a bit. Make sure your also measuring tension of an empty and loaded round to see exactly how much your stretching that case.
I certainly don’t object to taking before and after seating OD measurements, but how can a pin gauge lie?
I have them in .0005 increments and if one fits and the one .0005 up doesn’t, I’m baffled at how this could be inaccurate.
And thank you for taking to time to reply to me tonight…you and everyone else who pitched in. I appreciate it very much.
Cheers
I can’t say for certain but I believe it’s just from interference of the fit on a hole that might not be perfectly rounds. I was measuring with pin guages and ended up with some neck tension that was closer to .001 than .002 that I wanted.
That was before I went down the rabbit hole of wanting 2-3 thou neck tension on everything. I basically target the middle of that range and use a turning mandrel or the same size in my sac die. It has resulted in better groups and lower deviations.
Stuck home on baby duty leaves me plenty of time on here.
hahaha....well, glad you and your baby are getting to spend some quality time together. Enjoy it...before too long your baby will be a teenager and not want to even be seen socially with you! haha...ask me how I know. LOL
So, I do feel pretty good about the pin gauge accuracy... post mandrel.... and I'm at a consistent .0025" of interference with the Berger 140 HT that I load. This whole exercise was to try to get my SD's to be better...for the fuck of it, really. I'm not a competitor and certainly not envisioning getting into BR comps anytime in my remaining life.
Right now my SD are running 11-12 fps which ain't bad but I'm retired and have time so why not work at it a bit more. And, its interesting. Well, until it becomes boring which I expect will happen quickly.
I did just put a nylon brush, chucked in a drill, with a patch around it and a bit of Semichrome polish. I was wowed out a bit taking the pics with the borescope as the neck compression area of the die was now so shiny all I could see on the little monitor was glare. Loaded them up to a laptop and view on a larger screen and yes, the circular tool marks are still there. I absolutely expected that as all I wanted to do was polish a bit and not ream the damn thing out. I'm not sure what Redding would do if I sent it back to them but I suspect it would be similar to what I have just done.
This is my nice shiny neck area of my FL die
This pic shows the margin where the polished neck area meets the shoulder/body area to give a bit of contrast. And no, I did not put those circular tool marks in there....they are just showing up more clearly now that its polished that they did in the pics in the earlier post.
@spife7980 - look forward to seeing some pics from your polishing with the 600 grit lapping compound. I'm guessing you have similar tool marks in your die and would be interested in what you end up with.
Well, I'm thinking we have beat this horse to death...more than once. So with that I'm retiring from the field and leave it to you guys.
Cheers
This does seem like a long thread about something so straightforward.
- It's not "striations", it's galling, meaning bits of brass sticking to the die due to a lack of lubrication. Galling is cumulative; it picks up a little more brass every time you run another case in there. The guys who just ignore it must not realize this.
- The solution is adequate lube on the necks, and making sure the die is smooth inside. Note "smooth", not necessarily polished. If you're still seeing evidence of galling, one of those two things, or both, is the issue.
- An effective way to remove the galling from the die, and smooth it out at the same time, is to wrap fine steel wool on a copper brush so that it's a tight fit in the die. Then soak the steel wool in Kroil, mount the brush to a short section of cleaning rod, and spin it in a cordless drill inside the die, moving in and out like you're trying to create a cross-hatch pattern inside. (It won't make cross hatching, but the change in angle is more effective at removing galling.) The steel wool pulls on the bits of brass, cleaning out the steel die and also burnishing minor roughness in the die at the same time. It will not scratch the die or remove any material; the die is much harder. If you want to finish it with a Flitz/Simichrome patch over the steel wool, have at it, but usually not necessary.
Lube your brass, and carry on.
- It's not "striations", it's galling, meaning bits of brass sticking to the die due to a lack of lubrication. Galling is cumulative; it picks up a little more brass every time you run another case in there. The guys who just ignore it must not realize this.
- The solution is adequate lube on the necks, and making sure the die is smooth inside. Note "smooth", not necessarily polished. If you're still seeing evidence of galling, one of those two things, or both, is the issue.
- An effective way to remove the galling from the die, and smooth it out at the same time, is to wrap fine steel wool on a copper brush so that it's a tight fit in the die. Then soak the steel wool in Kroil, mount the brush to a short section of cleaning rod, and spin it in a cordless drill inside the die, moving in and out like you're trying to create a cross-hatch pattern inside. (It won't make cross hatching, but the change in angle is more effective at removing galling.) The steel wool pulls on the bits of brass, cleaning out the steel die and also burnishing minor roughness in the die at the same time. It will not scratch the die or remove any material; the die is much harder. If you want to finish it with a Flitz/Simichrome patch over the steel wool, have at it, but usually not necessary.
Lube your brass, and carry on.
Sigh….in each and every instance of someone talking about “striations” the individual has lubed their brass…and the die.
The process is indeed galling but the resulting effect is vertical striations in the neck.
I found BT Copper Remover took the brass out of the die in just a few minutes and I found that easier than trying any mechanical removal like steel wool.
Personally, I just thought to try the semichrome as the die was clean, I think a polished surface is less likely to cause galling than a rough one, and I had nothing to lose as it wouldn’t hurt the die.
Did you read the thread?
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Who peed in your cheerios?
Yeah I read the thread. Did you? OP's problem was caused by lack of lube.
But sure - be "that guy", the one threatened by anyone with a different solution than theirs. Better argue about it, like every other man-child on here.
I guess if nothing else, it's proof that age does not bring wisdom.
I think it’s kind of an interesting difference with all of this is that after you anneal brass, it gets soft enough that it has an easier chance of galling.
Open till recently I never annealed any of my brass, because I never shot enough to have a problem.
Most of the magnum cartridges that I shoot don’t last that long… So I never really had a problem with annealing’s brass, and then having it be so soft that with gall in the dies
Open till recently I never annealed any of my brass, because I never shot enough to have a problem.
Most of the magnum cartridges that I shoot don’t last that long… So I never really had a problem with annealing’s brass, and then having it be so soft that with gall in the dies
Pin gages don't lie , trying to put them in something that is not round is operator error .
Haha. Exactly. I’ve proved age does not bring wisdom with my own 76 parents. Ohh well, ignorance is bliss!
Who peed in your cheerios?
Yeah I read the thread. Did you? OP's problem was caused by lack of lube.
But sure - be "that guy", the one threatened by anyone with a different solution than theirs. Better argue about it, like every other man-child on here.
I guess if nothing else, it's proof that age does not bring wisdom.
Ok, I apologize. Condescending rather than helpful is how I read your post but I’m certainly willing to accept that was not your intent and I jumped the gun.
Who peed in your cheerios?
Yeah I read the thread. Did you? OP's problem was caused by lack of lube.
But sure - be "that guy", the one threatened by anyone with a different solution than theirs. Better argue about it, like every other man-child on here.
I guess if nothing else, it's proof that age does not bring wisdom.
Cheers
I should have used a different word. I use pin guages but still check measuring the outside after it’s loaded.
Mashing a piece of brass into a die isn’t necessarily the most precise either. Just sharing my findings. I thought I was .002 neck tension with a pin gauge but was closer to .001. I have pin minus gauges in .0005 increments.
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Extra force running the neck into and out of the die doesn't impact sizing results?
The marks are the result of push/pull force on the case.
The marks are the result of push/pull force on the case.
