Range Report Subsonic load development

[clay_breaker]

Re: Subsonic load development

Im running a Rem LTR with a YHM phantom. When I tried TB with a 170RN it was real inconsistent, I started using 8.0 clays instead and accuracy has improved and velocity is about 1040. I had a group of .590 4-shot out of this load, by far the most accurate sub I have loaded. Before this load I had never had a sub get under 1.5". The bullets are bulk gun show bullets for a 30-30.

 

[burnsome]

Re: Subsonic load development

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Im running a Rem LTR with a YHM phantom. When I tried TB with a 170RN it was real inconsistent, I started using 8.0 clays instead and accuracy has improved and velocity is about 1040. I had a group of .590 4-shot out of this load, by far the most accurate sub I have loaded. Before this load I had never had a sub get under 1.5". The bullets are bulk gun show bullets for a 30-30.</div></div>

what kind of velocity were you getting with 8gr of Clays and did it appear to fill the case adequately? sounds like it must be a good load for your gun. i'm getting excellent accuracy and super quiet performance with 2140 Sierras (165gr BTHPs) out of my 16-inch 1x10 barrel. 9.8gr of Trail Boss gives about 1075 fps...one hole groups at 40 yards and hopefully good at 100 when i get a chance to test at that distance. using Lapua brass with CCI mag primers.

 

[burnsome]

Re: Subsonic load development

updated pic of my rifle after a duracoating session the other day.

 

[burnsome]

Re: Subsonic load development

tag for updates and a Q: how does bullet seating depth influence your accuracy ~ better to be a couple thousandths off the lands or seated deeper better, or any difference at all?

 

[bohem]

Re: Subsonic load development

For those of you with casting capabilites a 10 twist will stabilize 220-230gr RN hard cast and they can be loaded with Unique and/or Red Dot too.

The 308 with a 220 RN cast bullet and about 9gr of Red Dot works really well for my dad's subsonic plinker rounds. We've played with jacketed, cast, different lubes, wet and dry bores, fwd facing and backward facing BT OTM bullets, etc etc.

For several years I think the only supersonic ammo my dad fired was 9mm and 22mag. The rest of the time he just tinkered with his subsonic projects.

There are several beautiful things about shooting cast bullets. Sure, they can be dirty and smoky, but they're cheap, when you know what you're doing there's no suppressor issues involved, and they lube the bore by themselves.

 

[mouse07410]

Re: Subsonic load development

How loud/quiet are subsonics? Can they reduce the need for suppressor (which my lovely state prohibits), and eliminate the need for hearing protection?

What's the max "usable" range for 308 subsonics (say for pills between 180gr and 220gr)?

 

[bohem]

Re: Subsonic load development

The point of subsonics is that they don't create a supersonic crack from the bullet, so if you can shoot suppressed the loudest part of shooting is the bullet hitting the backstop.

They won't negate the need for hearing protection without a suppressor but they are fine to shoot with light ears and for ranges to 400yd or more if you have the scope to handle the elevation drops. They drop like bricks, my 260 load drops 40 MOA at 300yd from my usual supersonic 100yd zero.

I've shot it to 400yd with consistent, MOA sized groups on steel plates.

 

[mouse07410]

Re: Subsonic load development

Thanks, bohem. Yeah my scope can handle the drop, with 125 MOA of total adjustment and 40 MOA base

. <span style="font-style: italic">It feels like you can reach the moon when wind is still!

</span>

I <span style="text-decoration: underline">wish</span> I could use a suppressor - but not until my state gov't changes radically (and probably more radically than is reasonable to expect).

So these suckers are still noisy... Though without that supersonic crack...

 

[Chanonry]

Re: Subsonic load development

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The 308 with a 220 RN cast bullet and about 9gr of Red Dot works really well for my dad's subsonic plinker rounds. </div></div>

This may be a stupid question but what sort of volume does 9gr occupy?

I have shot some Lapua SS and pulled a couple. VERY little powder and the case doesn't seem different from normal. The bullet is a special but I have some.

I have never gone with this as I want to replicate the performance of the Lapua round and there is no wet barrel shit/extreme velocity spreads with them.

Never worked out how to replicate them though.

 

[bohem]

Re: Subsonic load development

Chanonry-

I've done it 2 ways:

1) Dacron filler from a cheap walmart pillow. A little wad of this shoved in the case after the powder is dropped keeps the powder against the primer.

2) Use reduced capacity cases. This can be done by either buying/making them specially or taking regular once fired 308 brass and filling it up with epoxy or lead. You leave about 12-15gr of water capacity in the case and use pistol powder with an effectively full case.

 

[mouse07410]

Re: Subsonic load development

bohem, you're scaring me!

Won't a dacron insert/filler pollute my pristine precision barrel?

What effect on the brass behavior (springiness, reaction to high pressure) would epoxy have? (I can't imagine how you can make a reduced-capacity case, other than filling the existing "normal-capacity" one with something - like epoxy.)

 

[bohem]

Re: Subsonic load development

If you look at the composition of most modern powders they're based on some polymeric solid like Polystyrene or the like. The dacron disappears under chamber pressure/heat so fast it just burns away into nothing. Similar base constituents to the dacron filler.

The way you make cases involves filling them with an epoxy (like JB Weld) or cast lead. In each version you use a pintle that has a pin in the end for closing up and aligning the flash hole.

Once cast in place you only neck size the cases and you're set to go. The epoxy ones tend to "shoot loose" in about a dozen loadings, the cast lead ones usually last for more like 20 reloads. Once the epoxy is loose the case is junk. My dad uses once fired LC brass to start with, that way it's not like he's throwing out Lapua brass. There's no danger of the plug coming out and hurting the rifle barrel at all. It's obvious when the cases should be tossed, they rattle when you shake them but nothing can fall out due to the shoulder/neck shape.

There's another thing that we developed from what we thought to be an internet rumor. It's a heavily modified case that accepts 22LR blanks from Home Depot. In the 308 you can launch the 220's around 900fps with those blanks alone, no powder. At short ranges that will kill just about anything you want with proper bullet placement. I suppose that you could call it a poacher's round, he uses it for trigger time when my mom (who works nights sometimes as a nurse) is sleeping during the day. A few years ago he took a small doe with it during antlerless season, headshot took care of the business instantly.

 

[mouse07410]

Re: Subsonic load development

Wow!!

I'd like to learn more about lead-casting the cases (somehow I think that if I just plug the flash-hole and pour lead into the case the results might disappoint me

).

And I'd love to learn more about those 22LR blanks. What's its "hunting range", and can it punch paper at 100m? And how noisy are these? <span style="font-style: italic">I'm trying to find an alternative to forbidden suppressors.</span>

 

[bohem]

Re: Subsonic load development

The 22 blanks are almost silent, not quite, but definitely less noise than a regular piston air rifle.

I don't have any pics of the case casting process but it's easy if you have the equipment to make cast lead bullets. It probably belongs in its own thread as I seem to have successfully hijacked this one by going this route.

I will try to put some pictures and a "how to" up in a few weeks. My casting stuff is all at my dad's shop so the next time I get up there I'll show the stuff used to do this and write it up.

ETA: 220gr RN's at 900 fps MV go for quite a while, I'm sure that a shooter capable of delivering a headshot from 200yd reliably would kill the deer at those distances. It will absolutely punch paper at even 400yd assuming you can get the bullet on the target. They make a quite audible "ding" when shooting steel at that range.

 

[mouse07410]

Re: Subsonic load development

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The 22 blanks are almost silent, not quite, but definitely less noise than a regular piston air rifle.</div></div>
I don't have any pics of the case casting process but it's eas
Wow, I want those 22 blanks. Where can I get them, and how do I "marry" those blanks to my 308 rifle? What's involved in making the appropriate case (no pun intended

)?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will try to put some pictures and a "how to" up in a few weeks.</div></div>
Yeah, if you could put a "how-to" together it would be awesome!!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">220gr RN's at 900 fps MV go for quite a while.......will absolutely punch paper at even 400yd assuming you can get the bullet on the target. They make a quite audible "ding" when shooting steel at that range.</div></div>
Please remind me - I'm a bit confused: is it with those 22LR lbanks, or with reduced volume cases? <span style="font-style: italic">I almost can't believe my ears/eyes! A workable solution that can compare to suppressor noise-wise, and can reach 300-400 yards!</span>

 

[bohem]

Re: Subsonic load development

The blanks I got initially from Lowes or Home Depot. They're in the section where they have the 22 blank powered nail guns, that's all I'm using. Find the highest powered ones they sell and use them. My dad found some really hot ones online from Grainger or something that were cheaper and got the 900fps velocities with the lead bullets.

Making the cases to handle the blanks is a labor intensive process that involves basically cutting a new case head on the lathe from either brass or steel, cutting a "chamber" for the blank in it on the milling machine (I use a straight flute chucking reamer to clean up the "chamber") and then soldering the base onto the chopped up piece of brass. You make a new case head to act as the chamber and align the rim of the blank with the centerfire pin in your rifle.

Like I said, it's labor intensive and if you don't anneal the necks every 5th or 6th firing and split a case neck it makes you want to cry. If you do split a neck though you just heat up the case head you made and pull it off the trashed body and solder it into a new body.

The easier route is really to just make some reduced capacity cases via the lead or epoxy route. JB Weld and Devcon work REALLY well. Figure you have a more aerodynamic version of a 44 special cast bullet load for practice in your rifle. Whatever you think that revolver load would kill this will do it with precision.

If you have the ability to make the case heads I'll make up a print for you and email it via PDF. Otherwise it's not really worth the work out of curiosity sake.

 

[mouse07410]

Re: Subsonic load development

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you have the ability to make the case heads I'll make up a print for you and email it via PDF. Otherwise it's not really worth the work out of curiosity sake.</div></div>
Tough - I have the skills (worked lathe in my young age) but not the equipment... Still wouldn't mind the PDF - but I hear ya re. labor-intensive part. Probably reduced-capacity cases is the route I should take...

 

[bohem]

Re: Subsonic load development

I just sent you a PM, we can take the discussion there. I think the epoxy filled cases are something you can work with in the next couple days and try immediately.

 

[Jedi]

Re: Subsonic load development

Alright then

Some tidbits for ya all

You dont need super heavy for caliber bullets to do this

Use what ever you normally shoot 175smk, 155secnar whatever,
reverse bullet incase...thats right pointy end first
reduces case capacity and greatly improves sub sonic consistency

Ass backwards bullet is infact most desirable shape for subsonics ie tear drop

NEVER run subs dry, spray liberally with hornady one shot etc

nnow that case capcity is correct via back ass wards bullet ya dont have to use Trail boss, pistol powders tend to work better

Use mag primers, no need to drill out flash hole

there ya have it
Simple and it works

 

[bohem]

Re: Subsonic load development

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jedi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Alright then

Some tidbits for ya all

You dont need super heavy for caliber bullets to do this

Use what ever you normally shoot 175smk, 155secnar whatever,
reverse bullet incase...thats right pointy end first
reduces case capacity and greatly improves sub sonic consistency

Ass backwards bullet is infact most desirable shape for subsonics ie tear drop

NEVER run subs dry, spray liberally with hornady one shot etc

nnow that case capcity is correct via back ass wards bullet ya dont have to use Trail boss, pistol powders tend to work better

Use mag primers, no need to drill out flash hole

there ya have it
Simple and it works </div></div>

That pretty well sums up about everything non-cast said in the thread.

The only point to using super heavy bullets is to increase the smack downrange for hunting use.

 

[mouse07410]

Re: Subsonic load development

Yeah, but it just <span style="text-decoration: underline">feels</span> unnatural to insert the bullet backwards - y'know...

I wonder what alloy mix you use for casting to avoid barrel leading (and what bore cleaner you use to get rid of whatever lead accumulated there).

 

[Chanonry]

Re: Subsonic load development

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jedi</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Alright then

Some tidbits for ya all

You dont need super heavy for caliber bullets to do this

Use what ever you normally shoot 175smk, 155secnar whatever,
reverse bullet incase...thats right pointy end first
reduces case capacity and greatly improves sub sonic consistency

Ass backwards bullet is infact most desirable shape for subsonics ie tear drop

NEVER run subs dry, spray liberally with hornady one shot etc

nnow that case capcity is correct via back ass wards bullet ya dont have to use Trail boss, pistol powders tend to work better

Use mag primers, no need to drill out flash hole

there ya have it
Simple and it works </div></div>

That pretty well sums up about everything non-cast said in the thread.

The only point to using super heavy bullets is to increase the smack downrange for hunting use.</div></div>

bohem - good tip on the filler thanks.

I struggle with this idea of always running subs wet, Lapua sell this shit to the military and you don't get a can of oil with a box of bullets

 

[bohem]

Re: Subsonic load development

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chanonry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

bohem - good tip on the filler thanks.

I struggle with this idea of always running subs wet, Lapua sell this shit to the military and you don't get a can of oil with a box of bullets </div></div>


I avoid using wet loads at all costs. Cast lead is self lubing from the lubed bullets and the jacketed loads don't seem to have a problem in any of my rifles with the first round once the load is worked out. CLEAN barrel 1st round shots are a different story, but I clean very infrequently.

If your rifle likes a lubed load, try cast bullets with a gas check.

 

[burnsome]

Re: Subsonic load development

some success trying loading to OAL...

180gr Speer Soft Points/flat based bb's. 10.3 gr Trail Boss. one hold groups at 30 yards and will try at 100 yards this weekend and will report back. Also trying some 125 Speer TNT's and 135SMK's as well. using 7.5gr TB to push them at 1025fps testing them in the side yard today.

168 SMKs keyhole and tried loading them backwards and still keyholed.

Rem 700
Schneider 16-inch 1x10 twist
Amer Mfg Triple-X
Lapua brass
Fed mag primers

 

[clay_breaker]

Re: Subsonic load development

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Burnsome...</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Im running a Rem LTR with a YHM phantom. When I tried TB with a 170RN it was real inconsistent, I started using 8.0 clays instead and accuracy has improved and velocity is about 1040. I had a group of .590 4-shot out of this load, by far the most accurate sub I have loaded. Before this load I had never had a sub get under 1.5". The bullets are bulk gun show bullets for a 30-30.</div></div>

what kind of velocity were you getting with 8gr of Clays and did it appear to fill the case adequately? sounds like it must be a good load for your gun. i'm getting excellent accuracy and super quiet performance with 2140 Sierras (165gr BTHPs) out of my 16-inch 1x10 barrel. 9.8gr of Trail Boss gives about 1075 fps...one hole groups at 40 yards and hopefully good at 100 when i get a chance to test at that distance. using Lapua brass with CCI mag primers. </div></div>

Sorry, hadn't been back to check the thread. I'm getting 1035 with 8.0 Clays behind a 170RN. Its not much volume in the case. I always load them the same way for consistency, I've heard some say they get erratic Vel #'s when tilting gun forward or backward before firing.

 

[hill billy]

Re: Subsonic load development

For those of you using Titegroup to do this, what is your avg charge?

Any other powders in use besides TB and Clays?