Rifle Scopes Suggestions for high quality 34mm Rings

[VYD]

What are you guys running with your 34 mm tubes?
Don't want aluminum. Has to be steel and top notch. Waiting for Gen II Razor to arrive...

Talley, Badger Ordnance, Warne, etc.???

Thanks.

 

[USMCsean]

Marine Corps uses Badger Ordnance. 306-75 for 34mm.

 

[HumbleEinstein]

FYI, you can't put steel rings on an aluminum base. Make sure your base is steel too before you go in that direction.

FWIW, I have used several Seekins rings, which are made out of aluminum, and I have never had a problem with them.

 

[blackblue]

FYI, you can't put steel rings on an aluminum base.

Why would this matter if you follow proper torque specs?

 

[HumbleEinstein]

Why would this matter if you follow proper torque specs?

The steel is much harder than the aluminum. As you torque down the steel rings it will contort and potentially damage the aluminum base. If the base doesn't maintain it's integrity you could have problems with keeping zero, centering windage, etc....

Aluminum rings are plenty strong. What you do is up to you.

 

[thrusty]

I've used Badger, Seekins, and most recently, ARC.
I'm diggin' the ARC rings because of no ring marks and easier scope mounting (scope doesn't lose level as you tighten rings).
Can't go wrong with Badger though - I'm still a huge fan.

 

[7mmRM]

Seekins, Badger, NightForce, ARC.

 

[cramey74]

The steel is much harder than the aluminum. As you torque down the steel rings it will contort and potentially damage the aluminum base. If the base doesn't maintain it's integrity you could have problems with keeping zero, centering windage, etc....

Aluminum rings are plenty strong. What you do is up to you.

I must disagree with this entire statement. Clamping force is clamping force regardless of what the two materials are. If the rail is so soft that it crushes when you torque rings on it you might want to get a more quality rail.

 

[HumbleEinstein]

I must disagree with this entire statement. Clamping force is clamping force regardless of what the two materials are. If the rail is so soft that it crushes when you torque rings on it you might want to get a more quality rail.

If you have ever had the misfortune of mounting a scope base to the top of an uneven Rem 700 action then you can see for yourself that even the best aluminum scope bases bend easily under standard torque specs when matched against the uneven steel receiver and steel screws. (That problem can be fixed by properly bedding the base.)

People mount steel rings on aluminum bases all the time. Most never notice an issue. Maybe it's because they are not shooting far enough to notice or maybe no problem arose with their particular setup. For myself, I ask why take that chance when aluminum rings are perfectly fine? And my answer is to just stick with the aluminum rings.

 

[Rob01]

Seekins Precision are aluminum and plenty strong. CNC Machined 7075-T6 Billet, Type III Class 2 Hardcoat Anodized Finish, 1913 Picatinny Mil-Spec, Center lug machined into place, Grade 8 T25 Torx Screws, Serialized Pairs and Slim Line Clamps. You break those you have bigger problems than a broken ring.

 

[cramey74]

If you have ever had the misfortune of mounting a scope base to the top of an uneven Rem 700 action then you can see for yourself that even the best aluminum scope bases bend easily under standard torque specs when matched against the uneven steel receiver and steel screws. (That problem can be fixed by properly bedding the base.)

People mount steel rings on aluminum bases all the time. Most never notice an issue. Maybe it's because they are not shooting far enough to notice or maybe no problem arose with their particular setup. For myself, I ask why take that chance when aluminum rings are perfectly fine? And my answer is to just stick with the aluminum rings.

I'm sorry Einstein, I still disagree with you. Are you saying a piece of steel will not distort when attached to an uneven surface? I guarantee it will. If the action is uneven, I would recommend correcting the action vs. putting a Band-Aid on it. And if the piece of steel you are bolting to the action somehow corrects the issue than you have distorted the action somewhere else which will cause another problem.

 

[HumbleEinstein]

I'm sorry Einstein, I still disagree with you. Are you saying a piece of steel will not distort when attached to an uneven surface? I guarantee it will. If the action is uneven, I would recommend correcting the action vs. putting a Band-Aid on it. And if the piece of steel you are bolting to the action somehow corrects the issue than you have distorted the action somewhere else which will cause another problem.

I didn't say any of those things you just disagreed with me on. I don't think we're talking about the same thing anymore. We'll have to agree to disagree. Unless you want to disagree with me on that.

 

[South tx]

I really like my badgers

 

[Vargmat]

The steel is much harder than the aluminum. As you torque down the steel rings it will contort and potentially damage the aluminum base. If the base doesn't maintain it's integrity you could have problems with keeping zero, centering windage, etc....

Aluminum rings are plenty strong. What you do is up to you.

The rail will never know the difference between the steel or alloy rings clamped down to it. As long as the applied torque is correct you will never have a problem.

 

[cramey74]

I didn't say any of those things you just disagreed with me on. I don't think we're talking about the same thing anymore. We'll have to agree to disagree. Unless you want to disagree with me on that.

If we are agreeing to disagree, then I regretfully disagree. In the spirit of argument, I will only agree that we will disagree. errr wait

 

[VYD]

Thanks all. I always thought that mixing steel and aluminum is not a good idea since these metals have different temperature sensitivity levels. I could be wrong but steel does not expand the same way as aluminum.
My base is steel and it is part of the Templar V2 action, all one piece. Just got my .308 Hospitaller from GAP. Just thought a top-notch scope deserves top-notch rings...

 

[fw707]

I agree with Rob.

 

[fw707]

Just thought a top-notch scope deserves top-notch rings...

Seekins rings fit in that category.

 

[BobinNC]

The steel is much harder than the aluminum. As you torque down the steel rings it will contort and potentially damage the aluminum base. If the base doesn't maintain it's integrity you could have problems with keeping zero, centering windage, etc....

Aluminum rings are plenty strong. What you do is up to you.

By this logic, if you get a steel base, then you need steel rings and so by extension a steel scope tube.

The argument being made is that since steel is much harder than the aluminum and as you torque down on the steel rings you could damage the scope, as well as the base......

I'm sorry I'm not buying this logic....

 

[VYD]

What do you guys think about Talley and Murphy Precision???

 

[HumbleEinstein]

By this logic, if you get a steel base, then you need steel rings and so by extension a steel scope tube.

The argument being made is that since steel is much harder than the aluminum and as you torque down on the steel rings you could damage the scope, as well as the base......

I'm sorry I'm not buying this logic....

I never said that nor does it follow from the logic. Aluminum rings are just fine on a steel base. Also, over-torquing any rings can damage a scope. In general, the amount of torque being applied to the rings over the scope is mild compared to the torque connecting the rings to the base.

 

[HumbleEinstein]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/wjRFRcUjf3g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

If you won't take my word for it then listen to this guy. I think we can all agree that he knows what he's talking about. Skip to about 9:00 for the relevant discussion.

BTW, the reason I have not mentioned the fact that the materials expand and contract at different rates in my argument is because you would have to be operating in some extreme conditions for that to be a factor. Personally, I don't shoot in extreme heat or cold so I don't worry about that factor too much. It could be an issue if you do.

 

[Rob01]

Thanks all. I always thought that mixing steel and aluminum is not a good idea since these metals have different temperature sensitivity levels. I could be wrong but steel does not expand the same way as aluminum.
My base is steel and it is part of the Templar V2 action, all one piece. Just got my .308 Hospitaller from GAP. Just thought a top-notch scope deserves top-notch rings...

Sorry to let you know that you are wrong but it's ok as you are learning. I have been using Seekins rings on a Templar since 2008, the rifle above in pic, and shooting all over the country in different temps. No issues.

Also Humble, what about people who mount steel rings and mounts to ARs? They are aluminum. Same aluminum Seekins rings and bases are made of.

 

[HumbleEinstein]

Sorry to let you know that you are wrong but it's ok as you are learning. I have been using Seekins rings on a Templar since 2008, the rifle above in pic, and shooting all over the country in different temps. No issues.

Also Humble, what about people who mount steel rings and mounts to ARs? They are aluminum. Same aluminum Seekins rings and bases are made of.

I don't have all the answers. I just don't think the practice is wise when there is a better way. Everyone flipping out over my statements can continue to feel good about their prior purchases if it's working for them.

 

[Rob01]

I don't have all the answers. I just don't think the practice is wise when there is a better way. Everyone flipping out over my statements can continue to feel good about their prior purchases if it's working for them.

It's not about feeling good about prior purchases but about debunking old rumors and internet lore. I have never seen an actual issue using quality steel or aluminum bases with opposite rings but I have sure read about how it's bad on the internet. I will take personal experience any day of the week.

 

[HumbleEinstein]

It's not about feeling good about prior purchases but about debunking old rumors and internet lore. I have never seen an actual issue using quality steel or aluminum bases with opposite rings but I have sure read about how it's bad on the internet. I will take personal experience any day of the week.

With respect, and this matter aside, steadfast reliance on personal experience is a great way to marry yourself to a flawed conclusion. There is a reason why there is no room in the scientific process for anecdotal evidence.

 

[BobinNC]

I never said that nor does it follow from the logic. Aluminum rings are just fine on a steel base. Also, over-torquing any rings can damage a scope. In general, the amount of torque being applied to the rings over the scope is mild compared to the torque connecting the rings to the base.

Humble,

There have been more than one pilgrim here on Sniper's Hide that tried to torque his rings to his scope by applying 65 in/lbs. The results were not pretty....

 

[Rob01]

With respect, and this matter aside, steadfast reliance on personal experience is a great way to marry yourself to a flawed conclusion. There is a reason why there is no room in the scientific process for anecdotal evidence.

Not just talking about my personal experience, although i have used a bunch, but all that of Hide members who use different set ups.

There is also no room in reality for hypothetical scientific "proof" that doesn't hold true in real world use.

 

[Riggs]

Seekins Precision are aluminum and plenty strong. CNC Machined 7075-T6 Billet, Type III Class 2 Hardcoat Anodized Finish, 1913 Picatinny Mil-Spec, Center lug machined into place, Grade 8 T25 Torx Screws, Serialized Pairs and Slim Line Clamps. You break those you have bigger problems than a broken ring.

Rob, sweet paint job, can you tell me about that added grip you have located on the stock?

 

[HumbleEinstein]

Not just talking about my personal experience, although i have used a bunch, but all that of Hide members who use different set ups.

There is also no room in reality for hypothetical scientific "proof" that doesn't hold true in real world use.

It's awkward for anyone into firearms to dismiss simple metallurgy as "hypothetical science," since we bet our life on its conclusions every time we pull the trigger.

 

[Rob01]

Rob, sweet paint job, can you tell me about that added grip you have located on the stock?

The black in the bottom picture is the velcro for the padded skid plate which I had off on that stock but you can see the other one I have on the first pic.

 

[Rob01]

It's awkward for anyone into firearms to dismiss simple metallurgy as "hypothetical science," since you bet your life on its conclusions every time you pull the trigger.

Not saying it's not there but that it doesn't show up in real world use from below zero to over 100 degrees. You have to learn the difference between real world use and what scientifically could be effecting something. If it doesn't show an effect in use then it's not effecting it for the shooter. We are not putting men on the moon. We are holding a scope to a rifle.

 

[HumbleEinstein]

Not saying it's not there but that it doesn't show up in real world use from below zero to over 100 degrees. You have to learn the difference between real world use and what scientifically could be effecting something. If it doesn't show an effect in use then it's not effecting it for the shooter. We are not putting men on the moon. We are holding a scope to a rifle.

If a company in the firearms industry took the attitude that they were going to ignore common scientific truths because it doesn't show up in the "real world" or "we are not putting men on the moon," then I wouldn't buy a single thing from them. We all expect manufactures to go over and above the the specifications we may reasonably need. We should do the same when making equally convenient decisions regarding our setups.

I'll add that I'm not conceding the point at issue.

 

[jbell]

Not to jump into your discussion on the dissimilar metals but...

There is absolutely nothing wrong with mixing AL and a steel part, even in high temp applications it will not make a piss hole in the snow. I do it all day every day in situations much more critical than mounting a rifle scope. If AL heads on a cast block will not bother in an extreme use application your optical mounting system will never know the difference. Please don't take my word for it do some research.

As far as the HQ rings my 1st choice is APA's rings. I have several pairs now and they all have been every bit as nice as any other made, and I am 99% sure I have used them all pretty extensively. Besides being machined as good as or better than any I have seen the design is SO much cleaner than any out there. The lock system to attach them to the rail is IMO a definite step up from all others as it is allowed to center itself by design. I have tested the return to zero with 3 sets on 4 different rails and they all return to zero with in a tenth of a mil (better than I can shoot anyway). If you have not looked into them take the time to check them out, they are truly an improvement.

 

[wielywilly-g]

It is fine to put steal rings on an aluminum base. Einstein is not as smart as he thinks he is. I use the Badger USMC rings on an aluminum rail and a S&B PMII 34mm tube. Very sturdy setup.

 

[Rob01]

If a company in the firearms industry took the attitude that they were going to ignore common scientific truths because it doesn't show up in the "real world" or "we are not putting men on the moon," then I wouldn't buy a single thing from them. We all expect manufactures to go over and above the the specifications we may reasonably need. We should do the same when making equally convenient decisions regarding our setups.

I'll add that I'm not conceding the point at issue.

Keep believe what you want. I will take my 20+ years of shooting precision rifles and go with that. Plenty of info on the subject for anyone looking for the truth to make up their own mind. Keep your head in those science books

 

[LRJammer]

If we are agreeing to disagree, then I regretfully disagree. In the spirit of argument, I will only agree that we will disagree. errr wait

Agreed. I have been combining aluminum and steel for quite some time now in a broad array of applictions. Simply put, a very silly assertion.

 

[HumbleEinstein]

This is always what happens in online debates. Everyone is so quick to defend the thing they have been doing because if they haven't noticed an issue, in their infinite wisdom, it must be right. No one wants to hear that their is the slightest weak link in their own setup.

I say do whatever makes you feel good. Ignore basic scientific principles and go with your gut. Maybe it will effect you one day and maybe it won't. The worst that can happen is you have a rough day at a match or the range. Then you torque everything down and move on without ever knowing what actually happened, because surely this couldn't be the problem.

 

[Rob01]

Keep trying to make it sounds like you know what is happening and everyone else doesn't. Maybe someone will believe you. LOL I don't give a rats ass what anyone uses but I do care when people spread BS as gospel as it makes the BS keep getting repeated by new shooters that read it. Hopefully they will find this thread and learn from it in their search.

Been shooting matches all over the country for over a decade. Flying to matches with the rifle in the cargo hold getting plenty cold on the long flights and then getting to the range shortly after landing into 90 degree weather. Checked zero on the rifle and it is fine. The zero stayed fine the next morning after rifle was in warm weather all night. That's not right though as those dissimilar metals should be expanding and contracting and throwing zeros off all over the place. I am sure if it was going to happen it would have already. But then again I don't have a degree in metallurgy and effects of heat and cold on dissimilar metals as Einstein does so what do I or any of the many people I shoot with and read about here on the Hide know.

 

[fw707]

This is always what happens in online debates.

Yep, never fails.
There's always a You-tube idiot like you who can't stick his thumb up his ass that wants to argue with folks like Rob.

 

[jbell]

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/wjRFRcUjf3g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

If you won't take my word for it then listen to this guy. I think we can all agree that he knows what he's talking about. Skip to about 9:00 for the relevant discussion.

BTW, the reason I have not mentioned the fact that the materials expand and contract at different rates in my argument is because you would have to be operating in some extreme conditions for that to be a factor. Personally, I don't shoot in extreme heat or cold so I don't worry about that factor too much. It could be an issue if you do.

OK Einstein I am not trying to shit on you here, but why is it that you think this guy is a subject matter expert? Please excuse me if I don't know who he is as I don't watch a lot of you tube videos on scope installation, but there are a few things that IMO he missed and I am not going to tear his video apart but: please go to 10:30ish and he says "you can have serous problems if you use steel rings on an AL base" WTF this is total B.S. I agree that some AL will yield before some steel but it is not always the case and will never be the case IF YOU USE QUALITY MATERIAL AND FOLLOW THE CORRECT TORQUE FOR THE METAL. If you have actual scientific fact to prove me wrong then please produce it. An other thing that may not be necessary but should be addressed when using a one piece base (and this is pretty basic) is checking the base for proper fit on the action. If you have ever checked you will find that most R700 actions are out of true on the OD and a base will usually need to be bedded on one end to prevent undue stress to the action and or the optic. Do many people never bother to check this and never see any problems arise, sure. But does this mean that the potential for a scope to bind up or fail over time is not there, NOPE. IMO if this subject matter expert is providing an instructional video then he should probably cover at least the very basic elements of the task.

There again I am not shitting on you or this guy in the video, so please don't get all butt hurt like many do around here. But to say that AL rings and steel bases are a no go is a bit incorrect. If it were correct then the same would apply to your steel ring and base combo when you install your scope which 90% are made of what, yep you guessed it aluminum. So how does this not cause the same problem?

 

[jbell]

This is always what happens in online debates. Everyone is so quick to defend the thing they have been doing because if they haven't noticed an issue, in their infinite wisdom, it must be right. No one wants to hear that their is the slightest weak link in their own setup.

I say do whatever makes you feel good. Ignore basic scientific principles and go with your gut. Maybe it will effect you one day and maybe it won't. The worst that can happen is you have a rough day at a match or the range. Then you torque everything down and move on without ever knowing what actually happened, because surely this couldn't be the problem.

You seem pretty sure that you are correct about this so you must have first hand knowledge of a failure that was directly contributed to the dissimilar metals being used. I would love to hear about the failure but more specifically how you determined the cause of the failure was in fact the expansion rate differential of the dissimilar metals not one of the many other possible causes. Otherwise you are just doing the same thing that you are condemning others for. Or if you do have a scientific study proving that using an aluminum ring on a steel base over a wide but commonly seen (on the planet Earths surface tempatures) temp range caused the fasteners to come lose I would love to see it and may consider changing my ways.

However if you have never personally experienced this and you really want to prove this scientifically then take an aluminum ring or base and a steel ring or base at room temp measure it to the 1 ten thousandth of an inch (0.0001) you will need a micrometer with a vernier scale. Then freeze it over night and measure them again in the same spot. Take that to a know metallurgist and see what amount of torque will be lost or gained.

The fact of the matter is that there is not enough of a temp swing on this planet to create such a problem. Now if you installed your aluminum rings on a steel base and the parts were preheated to an extreme temp and then used in artic conditions then yes you may have an issue, but that is not very likely...

 

[HumbleEinstein]

Here comes the name calling. Also, here come the responses from people who haven't even read the thread and are misquoting things I have said. I don't have near the shooting experience of many here; however, I'm a quick study, i am science literate, and I can accept facts that challenge my closely held beliefs. I have made my points and I know how I will continue to setup my own rifles. Frankly, it's not that important. Everyone will make there own decision with little consequence. Rob01 is right, we're not sending people to the moon. This is all about leisure shooting after all. The stakes are quite low.

 

[jbell]

Here comes the name calling. Also, here come the responses from people who haven't even read the thread and are misquoting things I have said. I don't have near the shooting experience of many here; however, I'm a quick study, i am science literate, and I can accept facts that challenge my closely held beliefs. I have made my points and I know how I will continue to setup my own rifles. Frankly, it's not that important. Everyone will make there own decision with little consequence. Rob01 is right, we're not sending people to the moon. This is all about leisure shooting after all. The stakes are quite low.

I am not name calling and I apologize if you think I am. I just have a problem when people pass along here say, it quickly becomes a common misconception. I simply asked you to produce facts supporting your statement. Science is based on theory followed by real world proof (for the most part). I am not trying to come across as an expert nor do I claim to know everything. But I have mounted and shot and tested hundreds of scope, ring, and base combinations across a very wide temp range and not one time have I ever had as issue arise due to improper torque from thermal expansion of dissimilar metals. Also my findings seem to parallel many, many other peoples findings. I may be wrong but that in itself is pretty good proof that you may be ok to mix the metals.

 

[HumbleEinstein]

Here is what I have said one last time for the sake of clarity. Then you can all get in the last word and call me names all you want. Since the OP has made his choice we can then put this thread to rest.

Since we all strive to have the most sound and capable rigs possible, I am arguing that the wiser move is to match aluminum rings to aluminum bases and steel rings to steel bases. (I am taking for granted that we will all be using high quality products.) Further, if you are going to mismatch I personally would not mount steel rings on an aluminum base when perfectly sufficient aluminum rings can be procured for relatively equal cost and effort. THE PREVIOUS SENTENCE IS MY PRIMARY POINT. (Aluminum rings on a steel base is not as bad, but I still wouldn't do it.)

I don't have empirical data to show you, as this is not my profession and I don't care enough to study this relatively insignificant aspect of the sport. However, simple science tells us that steel is harder than aluminum and they expand and contract at different rates. I don't worry as much about the expansion and contraction, because you would have to subject the rifle to extreme conditions to expose that difference and I don't generally do that.

Further, I have personally seen an aluminum base bend like a piece of plastic when subjected to mild amounts of torque with steel screws while being mounted on the top of an uneven Remington 700 receiver, which is made out of steel. (Bedding the base fixes this problem.) It follows then that these aluminum bases will easily bend and contort when subjected to torque against steel. Mounting a steel set of rings on an aluminum base is no different. Torque specs for mounting rings on a base are on the high side, and well over what it takes to bend the aluminum. This can cause the rings to twist, slide, and behave in all sorts of unexpected ways because the two metals are not an even match. Am I saying that this will cause a perceivable problem every time? No! Will it cause some problems on occasion? I think it could, though have not witnessed it because I don't risk it.

My bottom line: Basic scientific principles appear to suggest a potential for issues when mounting steel rings on an aluminum base. It's easy enough to just match the materials. Using steel rings on an aluminum base doesn't provide any added benefit. Therefore, I think the prudent thing to do is not mount steel rings on an aluminum base.

I don't think anyone who does it is wrong. I just said that for me, personally, it doesn't make much sense. That is all. Everyone should just continue doing whatever they feel comfortable with. Fire away.

 

[thrusty]

I've been following this thread all day....I finally get home and the one time I want some damn popcorn, we're all out.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[cramey74]

I don't have all the answers. I just don't think the practice is wise when there is a better way. Everyone flipping out over my statements can continue to feel good about their prior purchases if it's working for them.

HumbleEinstein, You are neither humble or an Einstein. I did not base my argument with you on justifying my setup. I was just conjuring up some of my experience from running a machine shop for over a decade. I will say again if the base distorts when you torque it down then you have a problem that needs to be fixed before you continue. This nonsense you are spewing about temps vs. metal expansion does not apply to this scenario. Just admit your wrong and drive on. It is part of being an adult.

 

[oldfatguy]

HumbleEinstein, You are neither humble or an Einstein. I did not base my argument with you on justifying my setup. I was just conjuring up some of my experience from running a machine shop for over a decade. I will say again if the base distorts when you torque it down then you have a problem that needs to be fixed before you continue. This nonsense you are spewing about temps vs. metal expansion does not apply to this scenario. Just admit your wrong and drive on. It is part of being an adult.

Somewhere in my 23rd edition "Machinery's Handbook" page 398, is a chart including the linear expansion of materials. And yes, aluminum and steel have different values: Al = 0.00001244 and steel = 0.00000633 per unit length per degree F. What does this mean to bases, rings, and scope tubes? Not much.

OFG

 

[oneshotwonder]

WTF....

Im sure Franks getting a laugh out of this, as am i.

 

[VYD]

What can you guys tell me about Talley and Murphy Precision?