Super .30 Project

[Super30]

Hi folks,
[Feel free to skip to paragraph three for my actual question.]

First, a little backstory. I've been wanting a pre-'64 Winchester Model 70 bull gun since I first read Point of Impact by Stephen Hunter as a kid. There's a particular rifle described in that book and it is (largely) a work of fiction. I'm sure some of you are familiar with it. This project, however stupid and impractical (some might say wasteful), is my attempt to put together a custom "tribute" gun to that rifle and that novel, which first sparked my interest in long range target shooting. That's the context for what follows.

I recently came into possession of an original 28" bull barrel chambered in .300 H&H Magnum, made in 1955. I also have a pre-'64 target stock on order, and the current plan is to purchase a complete action from Paul Morgan at pre64win.com (assuming a .300 H&H Magnum set becomes available again; they are currently sold out) and have it blueprinted, and the stock accurized. This rifle is (hopefully) going to be a shooter, not a safe queen or "museum piece". That's part of the reason why I didn't just go out and drop $3,500-5,000 on a factory original bull gun. I'm already set up to handload .300 H&H.

The issue I'm currently fidgeting over is the condition of the barrel. I took a big chance and bought it at auction. It was described by the seller as a "clean barrel" with a "perfect bore". Heh. Heh-heh. Long story short, I borescoped it as soon as I could after taking possession, and I would not exactly call it 'perfect'. I'm fully aware that every barrel looks a lot worse under a borescope, have read countless admonitions about giving a lot of credence to borescoping in general ("go out and shoot it, only way to be sure", etc.).

Right now I'm just trying to understand where my baseline likely is for this barrel so I can manage expectations. (Yes, I know I could go out and order a newly manufactured barrel from various reputable shops...that's beside the point; see above re: context).

Any thoughts or feedback re: the following captured imagery would be greatly appreciated.

Stills of the chamber (after a basic initial cleaning with CLR only):




First 90° borescope video after initial cleaning:


Second video after cleaning with Boretech Eliminator:


(Apologies for the poor video stability and image quality; I only have a flexible Teslong scope at the moment and it isn't all that easy to control.)

My initial hotwash (feel free to correct or contradict any of the following assumptions):

1. The free bore and throat show a definite degree of fire cracking. I expected some, assuming that this barrel had been shot and was not in unused condition, though I'm not exactly sure how to rate the extent of the fire cracking.
2. There is also significant carbon and copper fouling, some of which has already been cleared out using Eliminator.
3. I plan to continue cleaning this barrel and possibly carefully soak the bore with Free All to clear out what can only guess is surface rust in the chamber (or, perhaps, oxidation?), assuming I do not get cautionary advice to the contrary.
4. You can clearly see the streaks of copper fouling all the way down the length of the barrel.
5. The crown is looking a bit rough, though not the absolute worst I've seen.

Honestly, I'm just bullishly (pun intended) rolling forward with this project at the moment, regardless of this apparent setback (if it is a setback). Like others have already told me, I won't really know how the barrel behaves until I shoot the completed rifle. At that point I might just sit back and laugh at myself for a lot of wasted time and treasure. Until said time, I'm over here having a lot of fun realizing a longtime pipe dream. Maybe.

~Super30

 

[noremorse92]

I would have just bought the action first and had a custom barrel made up for it in the appropriate profile.

For a shooter a cut rifled stainless barrel would be the way to go. Cerakote it to look blued. You are also not limited by caliber then too.

If you are going to have any truing work done on the action you might as well have a custom barrel done for it as the factory one likely will not headspace correctly after truing.

 

[Super30]

Oh, I’m sure you’re 100% correct. That would be the less risky, more sensible approach if accuracy was all I was concerned with for this project. Then again, I’d probably have a modern custom rifle built in 7mm PRC or 300 PRC if I were just chasing performance. Those chamberings interest me, and I already have reloading equipment for them. In this case the egg (barrel) came before the chicken and that was my entry point.

As for the trueing/blueprinting, I was told the process would involve sending them this barrel to ensure head space isn’t excessive, in which case they might need to match a “different bolt or, worst case, set the shoulder on the barrel back a full thread”.

 

[RTH1800]

It’s toast. That is why it came off and was replaced.
I like your project and know from experience about old take off barrels.
Not being sarcastic but do t waste your time and money on this barrel.

 

[noremorse92]

You're throwing good money after bad if you use that thing. Spend the extra and do it right. You'll be a lot happier in the long run.

Theres a very good chance that the used barrel will shoot like shit. Why spend the money and time on something that's a huge maybe?

You can even get the gunsmith to copy your barrels profile. For a few hundred extra bucks do it right.

 

[noremorse92]

Also if your mind is clearly made up on what your doing what are you bothering to post? You're asking for our opinion and we are giving it to you. If you are looking for validation on your bad decisions this isn't the place..

 

[Super30]

Also if your mind is clearly made up on what your doing what are you bothering to post? You're asking for our opinion and we are giving it to you. If you are looking for validation on your bad decisions this isn't the place..

My mind isn't made up, and I'm not looking for validation on bad decisions, given the definitive nature of this feedback.

I guess I'll chalk this up as a bitter learning experience.

 

[camocorvette]

Love the concept. Loved that book.

I too second(third?) Getting a new barrel. End result is going to get shot more and be enjoyed more.

 

[Super30]

Thanks, folks.

I'm reaching out to the seller. The item description was in no way accurate re: the barrel's (bore's) actual condition. We'll see what happens, I guess...

 

[Super30]

Good news! The seller agreed to take the barrel back. As I guessed, he'd only eyeballed it instead of using a borescope. Hopefully that process goes smoothly.

Which I suppose sets me back to where I apparently should have started all along: purchasing the complete action and a custom barrel. Any recommendations re: sourcing a newly-manufactured bull barrel for a pre-'64 Winchester Model 70 chambered in .300 H&H?

So far I've only looked at Pac-Nor. I believe the closest approximation of this 28" bull barrel contour would be 1.25" OD at receiver x 2" straight taper to 0.845" at the muzzle (though I could be wrong).

Second question, and I haven't yet done the math on this, so it's entirely hypothetical: any chance one could chamber (re: max COAL) and stabilize the Sierra #2231 (200gr, .308, 0.715 BC) projectile out of a .300 H&H Magnum? I know Sierra states this bullet requires a 1:9 twist rate, but I believe that's mainly for .308 Win rifles at sea level. Since I'm going to be ordering a custom barrel, and aiming to shoot 200-220gr bullets anyway, is there any drawback to ordering it in 1:9 or 1:9.5 vs the standard 1:10 twist?

 

[corsairpilot62]

Good news! The seller agreed to take the barrel back. As I guessed, he'd only eyeballed it instead of using a borescope. Hopefully that process goes smoothly.

Which I suppose sets me back to where I apparently should have started all along: purchasing the complete action and a custom barrel. Any recommendations re: sourcing a newly-manufactured bull barrel for a pre-'64 Winchester Model 70 chambered in .300 H&H?

So far I've only looked at Pac-Nor. I believe the closest approximation of this 28" bull barrel contour would be 1.25" OD at receiver x 2" straight taper to 0.845" at the muzzle (though I could be wrong).

Second question, and I haven't yet done the math on this, so it's entirely hypothetical: any chance one could chamber (re: max COAL) and stabilize the Sierra #2231 (200gr, .308, 0.715 BC) projectile out of a .300 H&H Magnum? I know Sierra states this bullet requires a 1:9 twist rate, but I believe that's mainly for .308 Win rifles at sea level. Since I'm going to be ordering a custom barrel, and aiming to shoot 200-220gr bullets anyway, is there any drawback to ordering it in 1:9 or 1:9.5 vs the standard 1:10 twist?

Glad the seller took the barrel back.

Look at Bartlein barrels or Krieger Barrels

 

[Oryx]

What is the seller giving you Back in $$ for the barrel?

 

[Carole Baskins]

https://pre64win.com/collections/barrels?page=3

Lilja has a number of Winchester contours also.

https://riflebarrels.com/factory-contours/

 

[spife7980]

Since I'm going to be ordering a custom barrel, and aiming to shoot 200-220gr bullets anyway, is there any drawback to ordering it in 1:9 or 1:9.5 vs the standard 1:10 twist?

A 220 should still be fine with a 10 twist but the 9-9.5 won’t hurt anything and let you go up to the 230-240s maybe if you’re a real gluten for punishment.

 

[Super30]

A 220 should still be fine with a 10 twist but the 9-9.5 won’t hurt anything and let you go up to the 230-240s maybe if you’re a real gluten for punishment.

Beyond the stability question, I'm a little concerned about adequate bearing surface with the Sierra #2231 in a .300 H&H case, not to mention COAL with that long bullet. If it turns out to be a fool's errand (or the rifle hates it), I'll switch back to load development for the standard 200gr or 220gr HPBT MatchKing. Can't imagine needing to go beyond 220gr.

What is the seller giving you Back in $$ for the barrel?

Ideally, all of it (excluding return shipping), since his product description was totally off. We shall see. I really don't want to have to dispute the charge with the CC company, but I absolutely will if pushed.

I'll take a look at Bartlein, Krieger, and Lilja, also. I've not ordered from any of them before, but I'm long familiar with their reputations. Pretty sure any of them could spin up this particular barrel, no problem. I was already planning on purchasing the complete action from Paul at pre64win.com, availability permitting. Appreciate the suggestions.

 

[Oryx]

Gotcha, sorry ... for some reason I was thinking you bought a barreled action or rifle with a bad barrel .... wasn't thinking barrel only.

 

[Super30]

Gotcha, sorry ... for some reason I was thinking you bought a barreled action or rifle with a bad barrel .... wasn't thinking barrel only.

No apologies necessary. ‘Tis an unconventional situation all around.

 

[corsairpilot62]

@Super30 are you conviced on 300 h&h? I’m curious if it comes from this book.

 

[Super30]

@Super30 are you conviced on 300 h&h? I’m curious if it comes from this book.

Yeah, it does. I’m more or less recreating the rifle from the novel (with the exception of the Unertl 36x optic, which is not only difficult to find in good condition, but impractical to use). Handloading the .300 H&H round will also be an enjoyable change of pace.

 

[2c1fr]

Sounds fun

 

[Super30]

Just cleaned my .300 H&H dies, and began a test reforming of once-fired .375 H&H brass to .300 H&H in this new Redding Form & Trim die (followed by a pass through the FL die).

Wondering if I’m using too much case lube, as I appear to have small hydraulic dents in my Norma test case, though strangely not in the Hornady case (same lube, same quantity; no lube on case neck/shoulder).

The neck wall thickness does not appear to be meaningfully affected on first reforming, but I will need to keep an eye on it. I don’t have an annealing setup yet, so this multi-stage process is what I can do…for now.

 

[Bart]

Cool project!
Keep us informed, please.

 

[BJames]

Just cleaned my .300 H&H dies, and began a test reforming of once-fired .375 H&H brass to .300 H&H in this new Redding Form & Trim die (followed by a pass through the FL die).

Wondering if I’m using too much case lube, as I appear to have small hydraulic dents in my Norma test case, though strangely not in the Hornady case (same lube, same quantity; no lube on case neck/shoulder).

The neck wall thickness does not appear to be meaningfully affected on first reforming, but I will need to keep an eye on it. I don’t have an annealing setup yet, so this multi-stage process is what I can do…for now.

Yeah too much lube, those dents will shoot out. I find new Norma brass to be a bit soft, probably why they dented and not the hornady. Had a buddy that loved the 300 h&h in pre64 70’s, good luck with the project.

 

[Super30]

Yeah, I don’t know about this particular projectile (Sierra #2231) in the .300 H&H Magnum case. Trimmed & squared a Hornady dummy case and seated a bullet shallow at 3.740” COAL (SAAMI COAL for .300 H&H is 3.60”), and it looks really deep to my eye...though I'm no ballistician. Also, IIRC, the pre-'64 M70 action can’t eject an unfired round over 3.7”.

I also suspect I’d have to switch to a Hornady seating die with the 230/250gr A-Tip seating stem. This RCBS die is leaving a faintly tactile ring around the nose of the bullet. Not good. Regardless, I'll be using my Hornady Lock-N-Load OAL gauge when I actually start loading for the project rifle, to take out the guesswork and deal in actual measurements.

(Last photo is the dummy round next to a factory-loaded Federal .308 175gr SMK, just for a fun comparison.)

 

[corsairpilot62]

Yeah, it does. I’m more or less recreating the rifle from the novel (with the exception of the Unertl 36x optic, which is not only difficult to find in good condition, but impractical to use). Handloading the .300 H&H round will also be an enjoyable change of pace.

Are you planning on using a unertl? Understandable 36x is way out there. But like 12-15x sounds fun

 

[Super30]

Are you planning on using a unertl? Understandable 36x is way out there. But like 12-15x sounds fun

Honestly? I'm undecided on the matter. Buying an antique optic and expecting much from it sounds questionable to me, regardless of the cool factor. Ongoing maintenance is another issue.

I'll most likely end up choosing a modern optic that is accurate and ergonomic, rather than one which is slavishly true to the novel. Frankly, I'm skeptical of finding any Unertl in acceptable condition. If I were building this rifle for some kind of vintage competition application, I might make a different choice. Since I'm now looking at ordering a newly-manufactured barrel, we've already departed from the 100% "accurate-to-book" standard.

 

[Rust]

If you really want a more correct replica, get a CrMo barrel and repolish the action and have both blued. Kreiger makes CrMo cut rifles barrels and Douglas makes CrMo button rifled barrels (among others) and can be ordered in bull profile. There are custom smiths that can create a duplicate stock, especially if they have a stock duplicator machine (basically a three dimension pantograph). Good luck finding just an action, buying an entire rifle for just the action is an option but a mint/factory original would be pricey, better to shop for one that has already been modified/rebarrled/restocked which drops its value as far as collectors goes.

If you want an Unertl the price for scope, external adjustment rings and mounts will start at $1,000 for anything remotely decent and can climb from there depending on condition.

 

[45-90]

Sounds like a fantasy, no action, buy a not so good barrel, return it, like an orginial, but don't have access to components, at this time.
It would be expensive, to complete the orginial dream.
But you're forming a few cases...with no rifle.

200 gr SMK I run them in 9 and 8 twist ...but purchased a $540 factory ADL in 300 Win Mag 10 twist for the action, just for the action and decided to shoot it first... it stablized them with .5" 5 shot groups at one hundred...but I'd still go for the 9 twist...my 8 twist likes them.
I took the new stock off and put the barreled action in a chassis, to feed 3.715" from MDT mag.
So the 30 Super can be made and 4.0" cartridges can feed out of the mag of a modified Rem action so it's probably possible with a Winchester action, but I never owned one, pre64 or post 64.
Brass can be made out of any belted .532" case, that is long enough.
The 375 H&H, 8 mm Rem mag, are long enough.
The 300 Weatherby is only .025" short but will grow close to long enough after forming, and easy to get, but probably a bit less capacity when compared to the orginial.
It headspaces of the belt so dents in the shoulder will be fireformed out...a benefit of the belted magnum.
The 30 Super won 1000 yd matches back in the day, and common.

 

[Super30]

Sounds like a fantasy, no action, buy a not so good barrel, return it, like an orginial, but don't have access to components, at this time.
It would be expensive, to complete the orginial dream.
But you're forming a few cases...with no rifle.

200 gr SMK I run them in 9 and 8 twist ...but purchased a $540 factory ADL in 300 Win Mag 10 twist for the action, just for the action and decided to shoot it first... it stablized them with .5" 5 shot groups at one hundred...but I'd still go for the 9 twist...my 8 twist likes them.
I took the new stock off and put the barreled action in a chassis, to feed 3.715" from MDT mag.
So the 30 Super can be made and 4.0" cartridges can feed out of the mag of a modified Rem action so it's probably possible with a Winchester action, but I never owned one, pre64 or post 64.
Brass can be made out of any belted .532" case, that is long enough.
The 375 H&H, 8 mm Rem mag, are long enough.
The 300 Weatherby is only .025" short but will grow close to long enough after forming, and easy to get, but probably a bit less capacity when compared to the orginial.
It headspaces of the belt so dents in the shoulder will be fireformed out...a benefit of the belted magnum.
The 30 Super won 1000 yd matches back in the day, and common.

Fantasy? Yeah, sort of. Would be more generous to call it the realization of an impractical pipe dream. A decades-long curiosity, if you will. And this is rapidly becoming an “inspired by” project, rather than a 1:1 recreation, which as you said is so unrealistic as to be completely unaffordable, for me at least. I definitely haven’t gone about this in the most logical way, and will probably end up wasting some cash in the process, but I’m learning. Slowly. And enjoying the journey.

The reforming and dummy loading was mainly just to start familiarizing myself with the reforming process and loading for belted magnums in general, which I have not done previously. I have a Reloading Technologies, Inc. Collet Resizing Die on order to (hopefully) alleviate known issues with case head separation and extend my brass life.

Fully aware that I won’t be able to truly begin development until I have the completed rifle in hand, though it has been interesting for initial evaluation of trying to load more modern projectiles in this “obsolete” chambering; I must admit, the notion of keeping an old workhorse like .300 H&H alive, just on principle, is not without its inherent appeal.

If the 2231s simply aren’t workable, I’ll switch to more conventional 200gr or possibly 220gr SMKs, possibly others. They won’t go to waste. I’ll eventually rebarrel my Howa/KRG rig in 1:9 twist and try shooting them out of it, instead.

Great to hear your insights re: the 200gr SMK. Appreciate the knowledge transfer. I’ll have to have a chat with the gunsmith about the pre-‘64 magazine. I was already expecting to have to SRF these crazy long rounds, but it’s encouraging to hear that the action just might be able to functionally eject a longer round than expected or reported.

I haven’t been able to find hard data from anyone loading “modern” target bullets for .300 H&H on the web (and maybe that tells me something), just hunting loads. Which isn’t at all surprising. Kind of off the edge of the map, here. Like I said in my first post, this could all be a stupidly colossal waste of time. But it’s my time, and I have it to waste.

 

[45-90]

Fantasy? Yeah, sort of. Would be more generous to call it the realization of an impractical pipe dream. A decades-long curiosity, if you will. And this is rapidly becoming an “inspired by” project, rather than a 1:1 recreation, which as you said is so unrealistic as to be completely unaffordable, for me at least. I definitely haven’t gone about this in the most logical way, and will probably end up wasting some cash in the process, but I’m learning. Slowly. And enjoying the journey.

The reforming and dummy loading was mainly just to start familiarizing myself with the reforming process and loading for belted magnums in general, which I have not done previously. I have a Reloading Technologies, Inc. Collet Resizing Die on order to (hopefully) alleviate known issues with case head separation and extend my brass life.

Fully aware that I won’t be able to truly begin development until I have the completed rifle in hand, though it has been interesting for initial evaluation of trying to load more modern projectiles in this “obsolete” chambering; I must admit, the notion of keeping an old workhorse like .300 H&H alive, just on principle, is not without its inherent appeal.

If the 2231s simply aren’t workable, I’ll switch to more conventional 200gr or possibly 220gr SMKs, possibly others. They won’t go to waste. I’ll eventually rebarrel my Howa/KRG rig in 1:9 twist and try shooting them out of it, instead.

Great to hear your insights re: the 200gr SMK. Appreciate the knowledge transfer. I’ll have to have a chat with the gunsmith about the pre-‘64 magazine. I was already expecting to have to SRF these crazy long rounds, but it’s encouraging to hear that the action just might be able to functionally eject a longer round than expected or reported.

I haven’t been able to find hard data from anyone loading “modern” target bullets for .300 H&H on the web (and maybe that tells me something), just hunting loads. Which isn’t at all surprising. Kind of off the edge of the map, here. Like I said in my first post, this could all be a stupidly colossal waste of time. But it’s my time, and I have it to waste.

I build my fantasies...a 30 super is an easy build, but with available components.
You have to decide, an almost original...or an excellent shooter, target or hunting.
Traditional wood stock, fiberglass, aluminum, carbon fiber.
The Remington 700 still has a bunch of components available to build to, so I choose that action...cause I'm building it myself.
I buy a new Rem 700 ADL in 300 mag for $540 on sale, throw everything but the action, get a 9 twist Bartlein barrel 5 R, a reamer from PT&G, and aluminum chassis for 3.850" MDT mags.
A hunting rifle or 250 gr Atips requiring 4.00" cartridges can be done, but one has to mill the rear bridge of the action and bolt stop, install a Wyatts sheet metal...instruction video available from Wyatts...but you need a Bridgeport mill, carbide cutters, and test indicator, to indicate the action to mill the reciever and follow original angles, lines, and radius as the rear bridge. Most gunsmiths won't do that...but machinist will.

True the action myself, although not necessary to get a 1/2" 5 shot shooter.
Chamber the barrel and thread for muzzle brake.

This new $540 factory 300 WM Remington 700 barrel and action shot 1/2" groups with the first load I tried, the 200 gr SMK .715 BC at 3.7" with IMR 7828, installed in a $400 alum chassis....add the mag and muzzle brake another &160 and done.
For $1100 plus reamer $180-$200 you have sn accurate 30 Super, shooting 200 gr SMK.
Don't want a chassis but a wooden or fiberglass stock, ya have to do more work, or have it inletted, but it can be done.
Especially if you're willing to compromise on some items available today.
Want 4.00" cartridges to feed out of the mag?...Picture rear bridge milled this much plus a bit of milling to fit the box...not for the average guy.
These are 300 Win Mag and 300 RUM over length cartridges the will feed out of mags.
And a 30" 8 twist 5R long action 308 Win will shoot 2900 fps with 200 SMK, in hybrid cases or 2856 fps with Lapua cases. A 715 BC 308 will take care of most of your LR shooting needs, with just a 308 Win case...plus accuratel shooting with long strings.
Removing the barrel on the new Rem 700 for a .510 Whisper project...buying the whole gun locally on sale is cheaper than buying an action and having it shipped to an FFL.
Here's the $540 factory 300 Win Mag in a chassis, with a brake added, all stock factory.
How did it shoot?...pretty good, 1/2" 5 shot group with 200 gr SMK.
Action truing helps, but as you can see not necessary for a 1/2" rifle.
I do it to almost all, for a little extra accuracy, and especially those expecting to be 1/4" or less rifles.
So it's up to your choices, budget, what's available and what you're willing to compromise on...some want a shooter, some want totally orginial as possible.
Some never realize their dreams....life's too short, I try to make mine a reality, sometimes I compromise, mostly I do not...cause I do it myself.

 

[corsairpilot62]

sometimes impractical, but fantasy and fun builds are the best.

 

[45-90]

I'm kinda guru of obsolete, weird, off the wall...and what if?

Is 5000 fps in a commercial case possible?
Like a .510 cal AR 10....everything has to be made to fit. Brass and bullets machined, rebated rims, extractor groove recut in shortehed 338 Lapua cases.
How about a 30 RAR? No brass, no ARs chamber for it...so let's build one from scratch, profiling the barrel, turn gas journal, thread for barrel extension, and brake, chamber, and add gas port.
Too much fun...
Though about the .351WSL and .401 W self loading in the AR platform from the last century...1907 & 1910, got the dies...but Winchester came out with the 350 Legend, and later 400 Legend. Which is about the same cartridges they produced over 100 yrs ago.
The 351 WSL was one of many that killed Bonnie & Clyde

 

[Super30]

Welp, I managed to find an original pre-‘64 M70 target stock, but boy is it ever gonna need some love.

Looks to me like someone not only buggered an attempt to glass bed an action, they also modified the heck out of the bottom of the forend.

Everything else matches reference photos, including wood grain, except that funky bottom groove. Trying to figure out what that was all about.

My only real structural concern is that rear screw hole, aft of the trigger. That area looks like it’s missing some material. Good thing I know a great stock guy. We’ll see what he says…

 

[spife7980]

Everything else matches reference photos, including wood grain, except that funky bottom groove. Trying to figure out what that was all about.

Freeland rail

 

[45-90]

I just looked on Guns International they have 4, 300H&H magnums pre 64 model 70 complete rifles for sale $1900 to $2600.
A bunch of 375 H&H, one looks new in box $1600 Alaskan model 2011 with controlled round feed. The barrel could be changed for a new 9 twist 5 R Bartlein, by a gunsmith, for an almost new rifle, wood and metal.

The stock you have can be machined easily by a stock duplication router, for a new stock out of the wood of your choice. Check with stock makers, like Stocky's...unless you want to do it yourself

I'd just go buy a complete rifle...get all Winchester pre 64 parts...for the purest.
Or for me the $1600, 375 H&H and rebarrel with a 9 twist Bartlein profile and length of choice, depending on use. But I actually like the 375 H&H cal too.
But I'm not building it... you are, so continue on your journey.