Super high ES on virgin brass

[NJRaised]

I have a 223 rem, 24” proof barrel.

Just picked up some virgin starline brass to start loading for it.

Hornady auto charge pro (set on low), Hornady 75eldm, varget, cci small rifle primers. Rock chucker supreme, priming on press. Rcbs match master seating die.

Setting charge any where from 24.3-24.7 grains, 1.960 cbto for loaded round (well off lands).


I am inspecting virgin brass for deformities, and just loading it

ES is in the 80s. What is going on?

I do have a short chamber, it’s cut to nominal spec. 1.460” on fire formed brass on Hornady comparator

 

[NHPiper]

I have heard that virgin brass is more likely to have higher SD/ES. I would take the same fired rounds and reshoot them. You might see that number drop by 50%.

 

[Tnc]

If your charge weights vary by .4, a high ES would be expected.

 

[NJRaised]

Is it possible the auto charge pro is that imprecise?

 

[NJRaised]

If your charge weights vary by .4, a high ES would be expected.

Oh I mean, I’ve tried those charges, at each individual charge I’m getting close to 80 ES.

 

[Tnc]

I’m following now. In that case I’m not going to be much help. Sorry

 

[Tnc]

Do you have another scale you can compare it to? If so, try trickling up to your desired charge and check. My old auto charge wasn’t great. Easily varied .1-.3

 

[NHPiper]

I think most electronic scales, like an RCBS charge master, throw to +/- .1 grains.

24.3-24.7gr isn't a lot of variance either for load testing. I'd be testing .2gr increments. Like 23.8, 24.0, 24.2, etc. I would want a full grain spread, maybe 1.5gr.

What are you using for a powder? Some are more sensitive to this. You will be testing at 0.2gr increments and then start to see the SD/ES drop gradually.as you hone in. Others just drop right down and then back up.

Again, I would reload the same brass, do 0.2gr increments and open up the range you are testing. Do 5 round groups. You should know immediately if the SD is going to be in the zone you want. If it looks a promising on a charge, then load 10-15.

 

[NJRaised]

Do you have another scale you can compare it to? If so, try trickling up to your desired charge and check. My old auto charge wasn’t great. Easily varied .1-.3

My buddy has an auto trickler, so I’ll be comparing it to mine in the next day or two.

 

[NJRaised]

I think most electronic scales, like an RCBS charge master, throw to +/- .1 grains.

24.3-24.7gr isn't a lot of variance either for load testing. I'd be testing .2gr increments. Like 23.8, 24.0, 24.2, etc. I would want a full grain spread, maybe 1.5gr.

What are you using for a powder? Some are more sensitive to this. You will be testing at 0.2gr increments and then start to see the SD/ES drop gradually.as you hone in. Others just drop right down and then back up.

Again, I would reload the same brass, do 0.2gr increments and open up the range you are testing. Do 5 round groups. You should know immediately if the SD is going to be in the zone you want. If it looks a promising on a charge, then load 10-15.

So I started velocity testing at 23.5 grains of varget (3 rounds at every .1 grain increase). I was only getting 2635 fps at 23.5 grains of varget. 23.9 grains put me at 2722 fps. 24.5 grains put me at 2773fps. Oddly enough, those lower charges has es around 10. Once I got over 24.5 grains, the es was super high, but I was in the 2800 fps area, which is where I wanna be for prs.

 

[NJRaised]

I think my game plan is to shoulder bump my Virgin brass and restart the process. My comparator has Virgin brass at 1.460, and fireformed brass at the exact same measurement . So I’m gonna shoulder bump it to 1.458”, run a mandrel and chamfer, and see what happens.

Is 2700 fps enough for a 75 eld for prs? I was thinking 28-2850 fps.

 

[NJRaised]

Is an auto charge pro gonna be accurate enough with varget to produce es under 15? It says it’s accurate to +\- .1 grain.

 

[NHPiper]

So I started velocity testing at 23.5 grains of varget (3 rounds at every .1 grain increase). I was only getting 2635 fps at 23.5 grains of varget. 23.9 grains put me at 2722 fps. 24.5 grains put me at 2773fps. Oddly enough, those lower charges has es around 10. Once I got over 24.5 grains, the es was super high, but I was in the 2800 fps area, which is where I wanna be for prs.

My guess is that the whole issue then is pressure spikes from compressed charges. Varget is very, very forgiving compared to something like 8208. However, it is also on the slower end.

I would take that 50fps drop in velocity any day over what you are seeing. If you punch that into AB, it won't make any difference on wind drift and minimal on elevation.

I have only seen 24.5gr with 77SMKS, and with the 80 ELD as a longer bullet you are compressing even further. My guess is you found the answer here.

You could try 8208 and StaBall Match. The 8208 will likely give you and extra 75fps, but can get to danger zones with pressure quick. I would try it at like 23.2gr and be wary once you get to 23.7 (that is with Lake City brass). The StaBall should be able to get up to 25.1-25.3 fairly easily without pressure. Note, 8208 and Varget ALWAYS shoot better across bolt guns and gas guns than StaBall in my experience. Tighter groups and better SD. StaBall is just as fast as 8208.

 

[NHPiper]

Is an auto charge pro gonna be accurate enough with varget to produce es under 15? It says it’s accurate to +\- .1 grain.

To answer both question questions, yes. The velocity will be fine for performance. I run an 18" 223AI. The wind drift between 2850 and 2700 is the same in a full value 15mph cross wind out to 700 yards and within .1mil basically thereafter. Slightly more dial for drop.

And I run dual RCBS Charge masters and am able to get high single-digit SD without much effort. This is my data with an 80gr ELDM out of the 223AI with 26.1gr of Varget, Winchester Brass 2x fired, CCI400 Primer, and 0.020" off the lands.

 

[NJRaised]

Sounds to me like I’m gonna seat these bullets long and load a lighter charge. Hopefully that resolves the crazy es issues. I’ve never even thought about compressed powder, I thought varget wasn’t overly effected by that.

We shall see.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

223 is really hard to have a legit low SD to begin with. With virgin brass it gets much harder. You really need to mandrel them and put a good chamfer on them, then fire them (preferably 2x) then start looking at the SD.

 

[MarkyMark007]

I have a 223 rem, 24” proof barrel.

Just picked up some virgin starline brass to start loading for it.

Hornady auto charge pro (set on low), Hornady 75eldm, varget, cci small rifle primers. Rock chucker supreme, priming on press. Rcbs match master seating die.

Setting charge any where from 24.3-24.7 grains, 1.960 cbto for loaded round (well off lands).


I am inspecting virgin brass for deformities, and just loading it

ES is in the 80s. What is going on?

everything in bold is inconsistent.

 

[Doom]

How many rounds are you basing you data on?

 

[secondofangle2]

^in the Garmin era, double digit SDs are the new single digit SDs. (Because people are finally measuring long uninterrupted strings, rather than posting pics of their mangnetospeed screen with SD 3.2 and n=5.)

Multiply SD by 4 and you will have ES, approximately. But you shouldn't even be looking at ES, it's a shooter's contrivance and statistically meaningless; and 80/4~SD20 which is par for the course for 223. You're doing superb if you keep it at 15 over long strings.

Plus virgin brass has higher neck friction (no carbon) unless you're using some kind of lube and even then. My peterson 260 virgin brass had extreme neck friction the first firing so bad that I called them about it. The guy who answered was either ignorant, or playing dumb, said he had no idea why....

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

^in the Garmin era, double digit SDs are the new single digit SDs. (Because people are finally measuring long uninterrupted strings, rather than posting pics of their mangnetospeed screen with SD 3.2 and n=5.)

Multiply SD by 4 and you will have ES, approximately. But you shouldn't even be looking at ES, it's a shooter's contrivance and statistically meaningless; and 80/4~SD20 which is par for the course for 223. You're doing superb if you keep it at 15 over long strings.

Plus virgin brass has higher neck friction (no carbon) unless you're using some kind of lube and even then. My peterson 260 virgin brass had extreme neck friction the first firing

Yeah i don't even bother with virgin brass as far as SD goes. I chamfer it (and I mean a really good chamfer inside the neck)/debur, and then mandrel it. Load it and practice with it.

For Starline 223, it's close to chamber already when virgin so it's usually good to go after first firing and the primer pockets are pretty uniform. So after first firing you can get pretty good SD numbers if your powder charges are solid. Of course Real SD #'s means at least a 20 shot string. I normally break that up into 2 - 10 shot strings and allow barrel to cool for 5 min in the middle part but no change otherwise accept swapping 10 round mags. If you can hold a SD of 12-15 or so you've got very good ammo.

 

[NHPiper]

Sounds to me like I’m gonna seat these bullets long and load a lighter charge. Hopefully that resolves the crazy es issues. I’ve never even thought about compressed powder, I thought varget wasn’t overly effected by that.

We shall see.

I forgot that the SD I gave you was off a 5 shot string. The 10 shot string had an SD of 11 vs 9.

Completely agree with the above posts. Here are two pics to prove my point. They show an 80gr ELDM at 2786fps vs 2850fps (64fps ES). There is no difference in wind drift. At 700yds there is a 0.3 difference of vertical which is about 7.5". That's 3.25" up and 3.25" down. So even a 64 ES let's you hit a 1MOA target at 700yds.

If you are shooting subsonics at stupid ranges, different story. And I would think about this differently if it was outside of 1000yds.

 

[diggler1833]

.223 is a hard cartridge to get low ES and SD to begin with as stated earlier. It shouldn't be horrible though, and 80 isn't cutting it.

Starline brass is a lot more consistent than those who don't check it believe. It isn't Lapua quality, but having run the tests myself as well as having video documentation from other sources doing consistency testing...it is one of the best "less expensive" brass options out there. I run it in .223, 6.5 Grendel, and 6.5 Creedmoor. I've tested it in all of these cartridges too. I just pulled up my spreadsheet on my .223 test and the SD for case length was .0009, headspace was .0004, and primer pocket depth was .0007...you're into the ten thousandths, and not thousandths there. The sample was 20 randomly selected. H2O capacity for that same group was .067 grain with an extreme spread of only .3gr...but that was after they were fired the first time.

What I have found in my several attempts at uber-accurate .223s is that sometimes you have to switch components. I have a Krieger barrel right now that - regarding velocity - loves N135, hates Varget, and doesn't like Reloader 15 until you are at almost published max where it tightens up considerably. That is all with the same bullet too.

That all being said, I think that your Hornady dispenser and scale aren't doing you any favors. That would be my first place to look at for consistency issues...but I would still expect 90% of your charges to be within a tenth or two of a grain.

*****

I have had some extremely tight ES and SD off of virgin brass. I do at least run mine over an expander mandrel, or at least the expander ball of a F/L die prior to priming and loading. Some combos just work better than others. I have a 6.5x47 that loves Varget. I was getting ES at or under 10 for an entire string of charge weight testing when I was using virgin brass. Combining that with my 2nd to last 6.5CM barrel the results I got off of virgin brass have completely changed how I look at load development with it. My notes have never shown more than a 1% tweak in charge weight when going from virgin to once fired either.

Now I find combos that work well with my virgin brass and don't just waste components trying to fire form everything before I really start load development.

YMMV

 

[NJRaised]

Well I took one step at a time, and I rated the powder to see if it was a powder compression issue. That was not it. 5 rounds pushed an ES of 100 fps.

Neck step will be running a mandrel and chamfering necks.

If that doesn’t improve it, I’m sizing and shoulder bumping, and fully processing the virgin cases .


Will be comparing my auto charge pro to an auto trickler this week

 

[NHPiper]

.223 is a hard cartridge to get low ES and SD to begin with as stated earlier. It shouldn't be horrible though, and 80 isn't cutting it.

Starline brass is a lot more consistent than those who don't check it believe. It isn't Lapua quality, but having run the tests myself as well as having video documentation from other sources doing consistency testing...it is one of the best "less expensive" brass options out there. I run it in .223, 6.5 Grendel, and 6.5 Creedmoor. I've tested it in all of these cartridges too. I just pulled up my spreadsheet on my .223 test and the SD for case length was .0009, headspace was .0004, and primer pocket depth was .0007...you're into the ten thousandths, and not thousandths there. The sample was 20 randomly selected. H2O capacity for that same group was .067 grain with an extreme spread of only .3gr...but that was after they were fired the first time.

What I have found in my several attempts at uber-accurate .223s is that sometimes you have to switch components. I have a Krieger barrel right now that - regarding velocity - loves N135, hates Varget, and doesn't like Reloader 15 until you are at almost published max where it tightens up considerably. That is all with the same bullet too.

That all being said, I think that your Hornady dispenser and scale aren't doing you any favors. That would be my first place to look at for consistency issues...but I would still expect 90% of your charges to be within a tenth or two of a grain.

*****

I have had some extremely tight ES and SD off of virgin brass. I do at least run mine over an expander mandrel, or at least the expander ball of a F/L die prior to priming and loading. Some combos just work better than others. I have a 6.5x47 that loves Varget. I was getting ES at or under 10 for an entire string of charge weight testing when I was using virgin brass. Combining that with my 2nd to last 6.5CM barrel the results I got off of virgin brass have completely changed how I look at load development with it. My notes have never shown more than a 1% tweak in charge weight when going from virgin to once fired either.

Now I find combos that work well with my virgin brass and don't just waste components trying to fire form everything before I really start load development.

YMMV

Same here. I shot a 9 round string to do a new load for a 6.5CM AT-X barrel a few days ago. SD was 11 with virgin brass. Only prep was chamfer/debur and tumble. Only going to get better from there.

 

[diggler1833]

Practicing what I preach, I shot a little load development on some virgin Starline .223 today.

I measured powder to the granule on a beam scale. It's what I always do. Yes it takes time, but I'm one of those weirdos who loves reloading as much as shooting, and testing my ability to make consistent rounds as much as shooting consistent groups.

I used Reloader 15, and got the same results as before...consistent accuracy and crap ES/SD until I got higher in the charge weights. Then accuracy fell off as velocity tightened. It is nothing if not predictable in this barrel.

* Not pictured is the upper end groups. ES and SD dropped to half of what they were (20/9ish) after 24.3gr, but damn if I wasn't shooting 3/4 - 4/5 MOA...not exactly acceptable for a "target gun".

Anyway, this combo just isn't cutting it, which sucks since I have a ton of 69gr SMKs and RL-15 on hand. Oh well.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Sometimes that happens. You might , want to try a different primer if you can before just starting over but sometimes when looking for the kind of precision that we are, you do just have to change components/bullet/Powder...

 

[diggler1833]

Sometimes that happens. You might , want to try a different primer if you can before just starting over but sometimes when looking for the kind of precision that we are, you do just have to change components/bullet/Powder...

Yeah, N135 keeps the spreads a lot tighter in my recent barrel. I've somewhat designated my current 8lb keg to one of my Grendels, but I'll probably buy more (especially since VV powders are $100 cheaper than Hodgdon these days). I have about 11lb of RL-15, and 1,400 69gr SMKs on hand from a previous project...so I was just hoping that I'd get lucky here.

Primers absolutely make a difference too. Currently I'm running Fed 205GMAR. Surprisingly I had fantastic luck with straight CCI 400s and beat up RP brass breaking in this barrel.

Friction interference (neck tension) does too. I've tried .002 and .003. Same/same in this case.

Etc... etc...

So many different variables, so little time.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Yeah, N135 keeps the spreads a lot tighter in my recent barrel. I've somewhat designated my current 8lb keg to one of my Grendels, but I'll probably buy more (especially since VV powders are $100 cheaper than Hodgdon these days). I have about 11lb of RL-15, and 1,400 69gr SMKs on hand from a previous project...so I was just hoping that I'd get lucky here.

Primers absolutely make a difference too. Currently I'm running Fed 205GMAR. Surprisingly I had fantastic luck with straight CCI 400s and beat up RP brass breaking in this barrel.

Friction interference (neck tension) does too. I've tried .002 and .003. Same/same in this case.

Etc... etc...

So many different variables, so little time.

Well, if you want to trade I've got 2- 500ct boxes of 77smk and I'm in a similar boat trying to find one that will shoot with all 3 of my ar's that I really like to shoot well. It's not a big deal just offering. I have some Hornady's I'm going to try also.

 

[secondofangle2]

Yeah, N135 keeps the spreads a lot tighter in my recent barrel. I've somewhat designated my current 8lb keg to one of my Grendels, but I'll probably buy more (especially since VV powders are $100 cheaper than Hodgdon these days). I have about 11lb of RL-15, and 1,400 69gr SMKs on hand from a previous project...so I was just hoping that I'd get lucky here.

Primers absolutely make a difference too. Currently I'm running Fed 205GMAR. Surprisingly I had fantastic luck with straight CCI 400s and beat up RP brass breaking in this barrel.

Friction interference (neck tension) does too. I've tried .002 and .003. Same/same in this case.

Etc... etc...

So many different variables, so little time.

Since it’s 223, I personally would be running less neck tension

Since we are measuring tension in relation to the diameter of the case neck, the smaller caliber should require less

 

[Doom]

It often seems to be overlooked that trying to compare 100yd group dispersion with chronograph data including SD and ES is not practical. The flight time to 100yds of most centerfire cartridges is so short that vertical dispersion is minimal. In the case of a 69gr SMK it requires about a 100 fps to move the vertical POI by about 0.2" or one bullet diameter. In the case of a 168 SMK (308) it about 130 fps to move the POI by about 0.3" or one bullet diameter. This essentially means that the dispersion in groups at 100 yds is a function of factors outside of velocity and incremental charge weight and is predominately a function of barrel harmonics and chamber/cartridge/barrel interface.

 

[diggler1833]

At 500 yards, something like 40 FPS ES is good for ~2.1" of vertical dispersion (your atmospheric conditions may vary), and at 600 it is ~3.5".

In my case, it isn't the ES that has me reaching for something else...it's the string of half-minute groups. This rifle is capable of much better...even the shooter... sometimes (maybe not).

^ It actually shot just as well with factory Sierra 77gr SMK (24.2gr of what I believe is CFE-223 as I broke one down). I ran it over a chronograph during break-in. ES for two groups was between 60 and 79 . However all four groups were right at a half-minute in the .48 - .54 range.

I was just making a note about the "un"-importance of chasing ES on a short-range target gun if accuracy is excellent.

 

[Doom]

At 500 yards, something like 40 FPS ES is good for ~2.1" of vertical dispersion (your atmospheric conditions may vary), and at 600 it is ~3.5".

In my case, it isn't the ES that has me reaching for something else...it's the string of half-minute groups. This rifle is capable of much better...even the shooter... sometimes (maybe not).

^ It actually shot just as well with factory Sierra 77gr SMK (24.2gr of what I believe is CFE-223 as I broke one down). I ran it over a chronograph during break-in. ES for two groups was between 60 and 79 . However all four groups were right at a half-minute in the .48 - .54 range.

I was just making a note about the "un"-importance of chasing ES on a short-range target gun if accuracy is excellent.

I wasn’t pointing at you in particular. Just a general observation. Seems to me a lot of times people look at groups with chronograph data and they ultimately try to explain one with the other. At 600yds that can work but at 100yds it doesn’t work.

 

[DHDeal]

A 223 can be a frustrating SOB trying to get great "numbers". I consider a sd of 10 to be pretty good. I personally don't get those numbers with virgin brass.

Like another mentioned, I actually enjoy the process of reloading and my tools show it. I use a lab grade MRS scale, anneal every time, use a 21st Century mandrel die, and will lightly polish the case necks before loading. It takes some time and some things I do may or may not make a measurable difference. I won't know as I treat every case the same whether it's for a BR rifle or an AR. I load everything as if it will be used in a BR match. OCD? Yeah, probably but my time is my own.

That foolishness stated, try this with some fireformed Starline: weigh your charges exactly (regardless if you may think your scale is a lying SOB), try CCI450 or 205M primers, lightly polish the ID of the necks, try 23.5 grains of 8208 with a 77 SMK (or 24.2 grains with a 69 SMK), and see what you get.

I use a worn out bore brush with some bronze wool on it chucked up in my drill to polish the ID of the necks. I'm just trying to create the same situation here and after annealing I find cases to be grabby while seating with inconsistent seating depths. I don't want that and the light polish helps me get very consistent seating. Consistency matters!

 

[diggler1833]

I wasn’t pointing at you in particular. Just a general observation. Seems to me a lot of times people look at groups with chronograph data and they ultimately try to explain one with the other. At 600yds that can work but at 100yds it doesn’t work.

Totally understand boss, I was just agreeing with you and showing my data points in the process.