Super rare Tula Mts13-1

[Big Ben]

Hey folks I have the honor of being possibly the only person in the US to own a Tula Mts13-1. Here are some rare pictures of a rifle that they made less than 600 of and evolved into the MTS-116m sniper used by Russia. Chambered in 7.62x54r, trigger can go lower than 1oz.

Let me know what you think, because this is the closest thing we will probably ever get to the Mts-116m. The quality of the Mts13-1 is much higher than the Mts-116m, as Im sure you will notice by the pics I included

 

[Big Ben]

my Ural-2 and Mts12 are in there too. A rare gimps of both the 22lr and 7.62x54r competition rifles in comparison.

 

[Big Ben]

parts box, with scope mount and sight, ect....

 

[enichols]

Wow, that is SUPER cool. Thanks for sharing - those are some gorgeous rifles.

 

[sandwarrior]

Amazing rifles Big Ben! Now we need to see some groups. It amazes people how well the well made Soviet rifles can shoot.

 

[308Gunner]

That is awsome, cant wait to see how it shoots

 

[jbell]

No joke, that’s awesome

 

[Davo308]

Very cool. This is something I'd like to see on forgotten weapons.

 

[Cbailey311]

These are awesome ...I agree with the forgotten weapons. It would make a great piece

 

[Big Ben]

well I lived in Tucson and so does the guy from Forgotten Weapons.If would get ahold of me I would let him do a video.

 

[Wannashootit]

Very cool! Never heard of this one...
Google search shows they're making a variant currently, including a .50 cal subsonic

New Russian silenced sniper rifle based on MTs-116M | May 2018 Global Defense Security army news industry | Defense Security global news industry army 2018 | Archive News year

A new Russian-made 12.7mm silenced sniping rifle based on the MTs-116M rifle will be unveiled at the Army 2018 exhibition in Kubinka in the Moscow Region

www.armyrecognition.com

 

[Big Ben]

Everyone! I must bit my tongue! I have been digging around some Russian website and found tons of pictures of Mts13...... Here are some links and pics! you can see the evolution of these rifles into the mts116m sniper and more...... I still have not met anyone with another mts13 in the U.S....

Оружие в фотографиях: СМ-2,МЦ-12,ТОЗ-61(спасибо Stnikov), МЦ2-3(спасибо warum1939)

guns.allzip.org

Прицел на винтовку МЦ-13 - Страница 1 - Популярное оружие

popgun.ru

Приобрел МЦ-13 : Винтовка глазами владельца

Вот, сбылась моя мечта. Стал счастливым обладателем целевой винтовки для стрельбы на 300м. Патрон 7,62х54, вес пули 13г, оболочка томпаковая. Вес

forum.guns.ru

Прицел на винтовку МЦ-13 - Страница 1 - Популярное оружие

popgun.ru

Продам спорт.винтовки СССР, Урал-2 (.22lr), ТОЗ-61(.22lr), МЦ13-1 (7,62*54)

Рекламировать эти вещи не имеет смысла Урал и ТОЗ в идеальном состоянии, в интернете информация о продаваемых изделиях есть. Урал имеет ствол,...

reibert.info

ВИФ2 NE: Ветка : Спор вообще ни о чем.

Россиянам разрешили ношение травматического оружия

Граждане России теперь могут носить при себе для самообороны "травматику", все остальное оружие – охотничье, холодное – все еще придется оставлять дома.

sputnik.by

ЭХсклюзиFF МЦ-13. Продам в Иркутске.

guns.allzip.org

ЭХсклюзиFF МЦ-13. Продам в Иркутске.

guns.allzip.org

Прицел на винтовку МЦ-13

guns.allzip.org

http://guns.allzip.org/topic/2/1843165.html

МЦ-13 в Самаре, абсолютно новая! Уже продана. : купля-продажа - ви ...

Всплыла в Самаре МЦ-13, абсолютно новая. Владелец не я. Из винтовки не стреляли никогда. Есть нарушения покрытия из-за долгого неправильного

forum.guns.ru

Подскажите болт под 7,62х54

guns.allzip.org

 

[sandwarrior]

So, what cartridge is this in? 5.45x39? I see a number of rifles you show that have what looks like a rimfire set-up and appear to be in the .22LR range size, for both bolt face and ejection port size. But, then some of the rifles you show have what looks to be a short centerfire?

 

[Big Ben]

real quick here is a link that shows that the Mts-116m sniper originated from the Mts13...

МЦ116 — Википедия

ru.wikipedia.org

 

[Big Ben]

no these rifles are for the 7.62x54r cartridge.... the action is like a short action... if you do not fire the round you have to knock the round off the extractor to remove it or take the bolt out. The ejection port is only the size of the casing.

 

[sandwarrior]

no these rifles are for the 7.62x54r cartridge.... the action is like a short action... if you do not fire the round you have to knock the round off the extractor to remove it or take the bolt out. The ejection port is only the size of the casing.

That’s a pain in the ass. But, I bet it’s accurate as all hell though!?

 

[Big Ben]

well it is the same thing with lets say the Remington 40x M40 short action..... You have to remove the floor plate to get loaded rounds out. It just shortens the action so it is quicker to operate.... To be honest it is not that hard at least for the mts13 I just knock the round off with my thumb. Most of the time you don't end up loading it till you are gonna shoot it, it being a single shot and all.

 

[Big Ben]

so I dont know if I can do this but I have an article The art of Sniper that seems to mention the use of the Mts13 or mc13 for sniper use or something....?

 

[Davo308]

so I dont know if I can do this but I have an article The art of Sniper that seems to mention the use of the Mts13 or mc13 for sniper use or something....?

Cool pics.

I will try to read it in English.

 

[sandwarrior]

so I dont know if I can do this but I have an article The art of Sniper that seems to mention the use of the Mts13 or mc13 for sniper use or something....?

That’s some pretty cool stuff. I need to get on my regular computer so I can translate it.

 

[Big Ben]

found this in a random web page, Says that the Special forces use the MTS13 for sniper work. Sorry about the bad english,part doesnt translate right.

In the 1980's — early 1990's MTS13 used by some special forces as a sniper weapon, with all this without the help of other arrows installed on rifles different scopes. And to this day because of resource constraints, some special forces snipers work with MTS13. About it and says stuff about the Minsk seminar sniper pairs (October 2001) placed in the website "Notebook sniper": "In the midst Russian weapons of mass over (after SVD) was MC-13. C hybrid MC-13 — PSO- 1 I worked a couple of Ryazan. sight was mounted via an adapter on the side of the dovetail. Since the mounting location is actually on the level of the barrel axis of the sight was enough battened up. Because of that had to do an impromptu cheek quite an impressive size. "

Later, on the basis of MTS13 were developed random rifle MTS115 and MTS116 standard. In developing the MTS116 designers increased attention has been paid to the processing technology of the barrel, also changed the shape and size of the receiver. Locking is performed using the 2-bolt lugs and corresponding planes inside the receiver. Stress and disposition of descent, the length of the course and position of the trigger can be adjusted.

A couple of years back to order the Interior Ministry was created rifle MTS116-M. She initially designed as a sniper weapon, because fire is aimed at regular 7N1 sniper cartridges. The firing range is 600 meters. Locking is done similarly MTS116. The rifle has a removable magazine capacity of 5 or 10 rounds. The gun has open sights and can be equipped with different types of optical sights. The stock suitable for sporting guns shape, with adjustable feet for shoulder and cheek. In addition, the rifle comes in a set of flash suppressor reduces the flash shot.

Russian cannon sniping — Encyclopedia of safety

On the Russian sniper weapon creator of these lines has already been thoroughly told in the book "The laws of war sniper." Yet there is a sense the brakes briefly

survincity.com

But despite numerous advantages, MTS116-M has a very higher price comparable to the price of sporting rifle motivated. This greatly restricts its application.

 

[Crang]

Very very very cool. If you dont mind my asking- however did you acquire such a rifle? Did you have to import it?

 

[PMB27]

The thread seems to be quite old and abandoned but there is only one way to find out if there are more owners of МЦ-13 rifle and detailed knowledge about that rifle available – ask.

So I’m asking because I found such rifle for sale. I’d like to buy it but also want to know something more about it.

What I’ve learned so far? Production started in 1952 and in total there were 498 rifle manufactured. There were 3 versions of the rifle : МЦ-13-1 basic version produced in larger number with a standard stock. МЦ-13-2 with the individually adjusted stock according to the instruction of the ordering party – Olympic sport team – small number produced. МЦ-13-3 version designed to fully make use of the 7,62x54r Extra cartridge – heavy ball, 13g, FMJ BT – with heavier barrel – unknown number produced.

Unfortunately there is no detailed information about each variant production scale, no information about the markings. There are not many photos of the МЦ-13 – from the few collected from the web I was unable to find out the pattern of markings. Some rifles has variant “1” indication markings – МЦ-13-1 stamped on the top of the receiver – I did not find any photo of variants “2” and “3” marking. Some rifles hac manufacture year stamped, some not. There are rifles with indication of the country of origin – in Russian “ сделано в СССР” and in English “Made in USSR”. I spotted 3 different factory Logo stamped on the receiver of МЦ-13 – Tula star wit an arrow inside ( two different shapes of the arrow ) and “T” inside a circle inside a triangle. But the rifle I Found does not have markings of manufacture year, country of origin and even a factory Logo.

I have no idea if there was a pattern in markings and certain versions and production batches were stamped with a particular Logo, version indication, manufacture year or not.

I’ll be grateful for comments and information about that very rare and interesting rifle.

Just for curiosity - it seems that Chinese copied that rifle and started their own production. Soviets had won several Olympic gold medals and World championship titles in the 60's with МЦ-13 that's why the rifle is so intriguing. But there are no info about Chinese successes in that field with their copy of МЦ-13.

Anyway – I put also o photo of the receiver markings of the Chinese copy of МЦ-13 to compare. [ Chinese rifle is the first photo from the right – S/n A061, manufactured in 1959 ].

 

[PMB27]

The starter of this thread presented, together with the MC-13 rifle, also other rifles. Let me do the same. Ladies and Gentlemen, here is the MC-13 rifle, together with the Record-1-308 rifle. The rifles have some flaws and shortcomings - no original documentation, no factory set of accessories, some parts are missing. What advantages do they have? They're mine now.

I tried to interfere as little as possible and not to make irreversible changes, hence the slightly odd optics mount and changes of the buttplates ( I just put the SVD rubber recoil pads on both ).
The rifle has already been bought but any additional information about it would still be useful and I am waiting for it. If anyone on the forum has information about the MC-13 ( versions, modification, production batches etc. ) or an electronic version of the user's manual, I would be very grateful for such materials.

 

[M77]

That's cool as! Let us know how they go

 

[PMB27]

Record-1-308 already initially tested at 100m, 200m and 300m with various factory ammo.
Lithuanian GGG .308 with 168gr HPBT Nosler bullet gave 0,72 MOA group at 100m so it was chosen to go at 200m - 0,73 MOA 4-shots group and at 300m 1,09 MOA 5-shots group.

100m

200m

300m

I'm an amateur shooter with a limited skills so I guess it was me who disturb the rifle rather than the other way around

 

[PMB27]

I took the courage and went to the range with Mts-13. I have made sure that my Mts-13 is not in a factory condition but is combined of parts from 2 rifles ( the trigger mechanism and the butt plate are numbered NH 234, while the receiver and bolt have s/n NH 240 ), so I decided to put some additional stuff on it, not necessarily consistent with the historical appearance of Mts-13
That is a factory condition look :

and that is the final look of my rifle :

The first test shooting with zeroing the scope at 100 meters - POSP 4-12x42 - German reticle - gave two 4-shot groups of 0.71 and 0.76 MOA. Ammo : Целевые патроны - 1968.

I hope that it will be possible to go around 0.5 MOA at 100m - that's what I think should be expected from this rifle.

 

[sandwarrior]

I gotta ask, what is the purpose of this "not being factory original"? And, why do you need courage to take this to the range. I've taken a lot shittier stuff to the range and have no regrets or apologies to make. They are what they are and they shoot! Nice groups BTW.

 

[PMB27]

Only 495 Mts-13 rifles were manufactured in total - they were intended for top-class sport shooters of the USSR Olympic team, not for amateurs of popular sports. They are very rare beasts - having one such rifle out of less than five hundred produced is already a great fortune, having one in the version in which it left the CKIB plant in Tula - "factory original" - is a great collector's treat.

In fact I needed courage even before going to the shooting range - courage to take the rifle out of the wooden stock - in the event of any damage, which is quite possible for more than a 50-year-old weapon - it would significantly reduce the collector's value of the rifle. So the courage was needed to take the iron out of the wood and not to damage any part, original screw or thread. I took the iron from the wood and found out that the rifle has mixed parts with two serial numbers - so it is not in original, factory condition - it was at some point of time rebuilt or refurbished. The collector's value of a refurbished/repaired/rebuilt weapon is unfortunately lower than the one that remains in its original condition and factory configuration.
On the one hand, I was not happy that my rifle is not in its original configuration, but on the other hand I have now more freedom in modifying the rifle, without being affraid that I'll spoil its collector's value - although I try not to cause irreversible interference.
At the shooting range there was also concern about how the gun would perform, and here also any damage would be very difficult to repair - there are no original spare parts available, and there are no gunsmiths specializing in Soviet competition weapons from the 1970s. So a little courage to take Mts-13 to the range was needed
Now I know that it shoots quite well, but I also know that it could and should do even better. I will try to reduce the group size at 100m to 0.5-0.6 MOA.

 

[ZG47A]

Only 495 Mts-13 rifles were manufactured in total - they were intended for top-class sport shooters of the USSR Olympic team, not for amateurs of popular sports. They are very rare beasts - having one such rifle out of less than five hundred produced is already a great fortune, having one in the version in which it left the CKIB plant in Tula - "factory original" - is a great collector's treat.

In fact I needed courage even before going to the shooting range - courage to take the rifle out of the wooden stock - in the event of any damage, which is quite possible for more than a 50-year-old weapon - it would significantly reduce the collector's value of the rifle. So the courage was needed to take the iron out of the wood and not to damage any part, original screw or thread. I took the iron from the wood and found out that the rifle has mixed parts with two serial numbers - so it is not in original, factory condition - it was at some point of time rebuilt or refurbished. The collector's value of a refurbished/repaired/rebuilt weapon is unfortunately lower than the one that remains in its original condition and factory configuration.
On the one hand, I was not happy that my rifle is not in its original configuration, but on the other hand I have now more freedom in modifying the rifle, without being affraid that I'll spoil its collector's value - although I try not to cause irreversible interference.
At the shooting range there was also concern about how the gun would perform, and here also any damage would be very difficult to repair - there are no original spare parts available, and there are no gunsmiths specializing in Soviet competition weapons from the 1970s. So a little courage to take Mts-13 to the range was needed
Now I know that it shoots quite well, but I also know that it could and should do even better. I will try to reduce the group size at 100m to 0.5-0.6 MOA.

An actual gunsmith can make parts, as necessary. Some people who work on firearms are simply parts fitters with zero trade training.

 

[PMB27]

It would probably be possible to find such a gunsmith and the repair would eventually be possible, but with each replacement of the original part with a modern one, I would have less and less of an original rifle and more of an MTs-13 replica and that's exactly what I wouldn't want.

 

[PMB27]

Herewith please find the result of today’s very short but informative trip to the shooting range. I shot only 12 rounds - 6 of them were factory ammunition ( the cartridges are already well over 50 years old, but they are still very good ) and 6 were prepared and reloaded by me personally [case: S&B, primer: boxer – Fiocchi LR, gunpowder – Lovex 73.6 – 45.25 gr]. I wanted to see if I could replace the old factory Soviet ammo with new reloading ammo. I did not change the sight settings - POSP 4-12x42, reticle no. 10, weapon on bipod, sitting shooting position, distance 100m. The groups may be too small - it would be better to shoot 5 rounds groups, but I only prepared 3 reloaded rounds of each type, with two different bullets - based only on GRT calculations with an assumption of -15% of maximum pressure. The .308 bullets performed very well – so it might be true that Soviet sport high precision barrels had 7,82 mm diameter instead of 7,92 mm like the military barrels.

With Lapua Scenar-L 175gr. – if I further clarify the weight of gunpowder with the proper “ladder”, I should receive an excellent replacement for old Soviet ammunition.

 

[PMB27]

In my first attempt at shooting at 200 meters, I only used factory ammunition – ammo Экстра FMJ 13 g ( manufacture year - 1967 ). Tiny 3-shots groups at first, just for the initial test. I have to say that POSP 4-12x42 scope is not an easy one – with the vertical and horizontal correction click size of 0,9 MOA is already quite a challenge, starting from 200 meters. Especially when the Strelok ballistic calculator says that at 200m for the Extra cartridge the correction should be 2,37 MOA – with 0,9 MOA click how to set it ? The type of target did not help either - the diameter of the black field "9" is 38 mm - but it was the only one available at the shooting range - I couldn't use my usual targets with 1 MOA grid.

Scope zeroed at 100m. First 5 shots at 200m – No. 1 and No.2 fired with the vertical scope setting 1,8 MOA – 2 cliks – not enough, too low. No. 3-5 with the setting 2,7 MOA – 3 cliks – seems to be a little to high, but No. 5 went where needed, so I stayed with it.

So, the 3-shots group with 3 cliks setting would be 0,98 MOA

The final 3-shots group – 0,67 MOA – shifted to the right but I did not try to correct it.
I know that 3-shot groups are not reliable, but at the beginning I want to enjoy them and not to get upset with poorer results. A bit of trickery and self-deception, but the mood is better. I take comfort with the explanation that with a 3-shot group, if it is correct, it indicates the lack of errors caused by the rifle itself, with a larger number of shots in the group, the errors of the shooter are more visible than those caused by the rifle itself. This is a little bit far-fetched, but I'll stick to it .

So far so good.

Once I've found the scope settings ( more or less suitable ), there will be time for larger groups.

 

[sandwarrior]

In my first attempt at shooting at 200 meters, I only used factory ammunition – ammo Экстра FMJ 13 g ( manufacture year - 1967 ). Tiny 3-shots groups at first, just for the initial test. I have to say that POSP 4-12x42 scope is not an easy one – with the vertical and horizontal correction click size of 0,9 MOA is already quite a challenge, starting from 200 meters. Especially when the Strelok ballistic calculator says that at 200m for the Extra cartridge the correction should be 2,37 MOA – with 0,9 MOA click how to set it ? The type of target did not help either - the diameter of the black field "9" is 38 mm - but it was the only one available at the shooting range - I couldn't use my usual targets with 1 MOA grid.
View attachment 8441242
Scope zeroed at 100m. First 5 shots at 200m – No. 1 and No.2 fired with the vertical scope setting 1,8 MOA – 2 cliks – not enough, too low. No. 3-5 with the setting 2,7 MOA – 3 cliks – seems to be a little to high, but No. 5 went where needed, so I stayed with it.

So, the 3-shots group with 3 cliks setting would be 0,98 MOA
View attachment 8441243

The final 3-shots group – 0,67 MOA – shifted to the right but I did not try to correct it.
I know that 3-shot groups are not reliable, but at the beginning I want to enjoy them and not to get upset with poorer results. A bit of trickery and self-deception, but the mood is better. I take comfort with the explanation that with a 3-shot group, if it is correct, it indicates the lack of errors caused by the rifle itself, with a larger number of shots in the group, the errors of the shooter are more visible than those caused by the rifle itself. This is a little bit far-fetched, but I'll stick to it .

View attachment 8441244

So far so good.

Once I've found the scope settings ( more or less suitable ), there will be time for larger groups.

Nice shooting.

FTR, three shot groups are quite acceptable here in Vintage. Many times it's difficult to get the correct ammo for a 'vintage' precision rifle, let alone generic ammo for that rifle.

 

[PMB27]

If only 3-shot groups mattered, it would be the best day ever - both with the old Soviet factory ammunition [ Целевые патроны ], as well as with the ammunition I reloaded with Lapua Scenar-L 175 bullets.

If only …

Distance 100m, rifle on bipod, scope POSP 4-12x42.
I started with 3-shot groups, just like in the previous ammo tests, and I got this :

It couldn't have been better - and it wasn't any further, it could only have been worse and unfortunately it was. After 3 great shots - I was so happy and felt so good, as I am a great shooter - so I added two more shots and I screwed up the result.
Excellent 0,26 MOA group became just a common 0,76 MOA and a great 0,37 MOA group became an ordinary 0,9 MOA group. Shame on me. The rifle and the ammo are great – I’m the one who ruined the result

The good news is that after increasing the powder weight - from 45,15 to 45.50 gr - I obtained a very similar point of impact of both Soviet factory ammo and my reload, with the same setting of the rifle scope.

And one more thing - the Soviet ammunition in both groups - 3 and 5 shots - turned out to be better So, also in the field of reloading I still have something to do to improve.

 

[ZG47A]

Dry-firing practice before live-firing, can make a big difference. When I shot 25 metre indoors, I would get into my jacket and sling to practise my position before walking into the actual range for my first shoot of the night. I would save some of my fired cases and carry out dry-firing practice at home, also with the shooting jacket and single point sling.
During my 12 years as a TF Royal New Zealand Engineer, I noticed that we all did better in the Annual Weapon Qualification (AWQ) when it was held during the Annual Field Exercise because we had more time to individually practise weapon drills. That was especially important after we started using the Steyr AUG. The plastic trigger took a while to get properly reacquainted, the sight adjustment value was 50mm @ 100m and … you needed to thoroughly clean your rifle, several times with something better than $@#$& Breakfree CLP; in order to get the best possible consistency in operation.
Have fun and keep at it.

 

[PMB27]

Due to time constraints – as always, lack of time, but also because of quite limited workshop – only a small Lee Breech Lock Reloader press, the Lee Perfect Powder Measure did not work for me at all, I skipped it and stay with manual pouring of the correct weight onto the scale pan with a dipper from a set of dies – new cartridges are made in homeopathic quantities.

Now I reloaded 4 cartridges with the Lapua Scenar-L 175 gr bullet, which presented itself quite promisingly at 100m and the goal was to try it at 200m. The first shot was to be used for rough adjustment of the scope if the trajectory deviated significantly from the estimated calculations on the Strelok and the other 3 cartridges for shooting a group.
If I had stuck to the plan, the 3-shot group would have looked quite bearable – 0.67 MOA at 200m ( at 100m there was 0.37 MOA ).

But I didn't follow the plan - the first shot was quite far from the PoA ( about 10 cm to the right and 5 cm up) but I decided that for now I would keep the current settings on the scope for Целевые патроны улучшенной кучности ( which didn't work anyway ) and I would shoot the reloaded ammo on these settings. After three shots I was happy. I was satisfied with the view from the correction scope and unfortunately added a fourth shot ( this is the highest one, clearly standing out from the other three ) - and that was it - the group had grown to 1.1 MOA

And the 2 Целевые патроны улучшенной кучности, which were supposed to enter the center of the "10" from this scope setting, vertically indeed fitted perfectly, but horizontally they flew far to the left - these are the two shots in the left "9".
A very short but generally positive trip to the range. Conclusions: the old (1962) Soviet ammunition still holds up well, the MЦ-13 barrel seems to take a formally .308 caliber bullet quite well [ although R. Chumak's claims about shallower grooves in Soviet sports weapons and its 7.82 caliber in the grooves were subjected to severe criticism on Russian forums and rejected as untrue], my reloaded ammo requires further refinement, the POSP 4-12x42 scope does not help much ( with the click od 0,9 MOA it is in fact a part of the problem ), the shooter also needs more practice.