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super trickler
- Thread starter Sigma
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He didn't say anything about UL approval. He mentioned CE approval.
On Jan 6th, this is what he put on his FB post...
.... "
Hi all SuperTrickler members.
The last month or so there has been little communication from us.
The reason is that Area 419, Peter and I have been trying to figure out what we are doing with the problem to secure electronic components for the SuperTrickler.
I have managed to procure assembled PCB's for a first round of SuperTricklers, but after that we do not know how we can get more until the world wide electronics shortage crisis is back to normal again.
Unfortunately this uncertainty adds a lot of risk and uncertainty to production start-up costs for Area 419, as they have to make the investment decisions that are best for their business. As a result our production relationship has been dissolved.
Area419 have been a great partner, helpful and supportive in every way possible and we understand the uncertainty created by the current world wide instability.
We have been investigating many options to progress forward with the SuperTricker and of how to bring it to production as economically as possible. As a result Peter and I have chosen to move production to Denmark.
We are now in dialogue with various companies regarding the manufacture of the cabinet, assembly of SuperTrickler and getting it CE approved.
We have had to reset our product ready target to around the end of May 2022.
We still expect a sales price of US $ 600 for customers outside the EU (For European customers, 25% VAT will be charged, so the price ends up being US $ 750). This will most likely have to be ordered and sold directly from us, out of Denmark to keep the price as low as possible.
We are in dialogue with UPS to get a good freight deal with them.
We will also be able to offer a bundle version of the SuperTrickler, along with an FX-120I weight, at an extra good price.
You can secure a SuperTrickler for yourself with a 25% deposit. Pre-orders for the first rounds of SuperTricklers will be taken soon, details to come
."....
Here is what a CE approval means.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking
It translates to more work which takes more time....
On Jan 6th, this is what he put on his FB post...
.... "
Hi all SuperTrickler members.
The last month or so there has been little communication from us.
The reason is that Area 419, Peter and I have been trying to figure out what we are doing with the problem to secure electronic components for the SuperTrickler.
I have managed to procure assembled PCB's for a first round of SuperTricklers, but after that we do not know how we can get more until the world wide electronics shortage crisis is back to normal again.
Unfortunately this uncertainty adds a lot of risk and uncertainty to production start-up costs for Area 419, as they have to make the investment decisions that are best for their business. As a result our production relationship has been dissolved.
Area419 have been a great partner, helpful and supportive in every way possible and we understand the uncertainty created by the current world wide instability.
We have been investigating many options to progress forward with the SuperTricker and of how to bring it to production as economically as possible. As a result Peter and I have chosen to move production to Denmark.
We are now in dialogue with various companies regarding the manufacture of the cabinet, assembly of SuperTrickler and getting it CE approved.
We have had to reset our product ready target to around the end of May 2022.
We still expect a sales price of US $ 600 for customers outside the EU (For European customers, 25% VAT will be charged, so the price ends up being US $ 750). This will most likely have to be ordered and sold directly from us, out of Denmark to keep the price as low as possible.
We are in dialogue with UPS to get a good freight deal with them.
We will also be able to offer a bundle version of the SuperTrickler, along with an FX-120I weight, at an extra good price.
You can secure a SuperTrickler for yourself with a 25% deposit. Pre-orders for the first rounds of SuperTricklers will be taken soon, details to come
."....
Here is what a CE approval means.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CE_marking
It translates to more work which takes more time....
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PO Box 294
Eudunda South Australia 5374
AUSTRALIA
I'm really torn about the decision between ST and AT. I've even sold my two Chargemasters in anticipation of the AT (and the market being flooded with unwanted CMs LOL). I'm tempted to put a deposit on the ST also, but man they have not exactly been transparent about the product as far as I can tell. I've seen nothing from beta testers, there are a few crappy videos on the internet, most promotion appears to be through facebook, production is now in a totally different country half a world away, does anybody even know anything about the guy in the videos (Rex or Peter), what does this thing look like inside, what's the warranty, and how can you expect shipping to commence in just 5 months from now?
$150 doesn't sound like much but it's a pretty big deposit in the face of all of that uncertainty.
$150 doesn't sound like much but it's a pretty big deposit in the face of all of that uncertainty.
Sometimes the early adopters make out by getting their hands on things that perform well and then are hard to get because a cottage industry can't keep up with demands, sometimes the early adopters find they suffer with immature products.
If you don't like this arena, where you are in the role of a beta tester for a cottage industry... then wait for the results.
Too many folks are not cut out for product development and don't contribute anything but grief. If you can't afford to take the risks, and are going to take up lots of space on the forums crying if it is a bumpy start, then wait for V2.
This isn't going to be like dealing with a big brand item with a F500 sized customer service department and lots of resources. This will be high risk high pay, so make sure you get your head wrapped around that concept or just wait.
The old odds were that this will take longer than expected, and these days you have to know that everything typically takes longer and costs more than it did when things set out. If this comes in on time and meets the cost estimates, then take it and run, if it doesn't then don't act surprised.
YMMV
If you don't like this arena, where you are in the role of a beta tester for a cottage industry... then wait for the results.
Too many folks are not cut out for product development and don't contribute anything but grief. If you can't afford to take the risks, and are going to take up lots of space on the forums crying if it is a bumpy start, then wait for V2.
This isn't going to be like dealing with a big brand item with a F500 sized customer service department and lots of resources. This will be high risk high pay, so make sure you get your head wrapped around that concept or just wait.
The old odds were that this will take longer than expected, and these days you have to know that everything typically takes longer and costs more than it did when things set out. If this comes in on time and meets the cost estimates, then take it and run, if it doesn't then don't act surprised.
YMMV
This industry is about the only one that is “transparent.”
You don’t see companies in other industries being open with their development. They talk about a product, then released it. That’s it.
And that is because it’s far more headache being transparent and having to field every comment from potential customers.
We as consumers are not entitled to know “what’s inside.” We are given the abilities of a product and a price. In which we decide if it’s worth it or not.
Also, it’s a start up company that was basically born out of someone wanting to make something better and then people requesting it be sold to public.
In a time where components are scarce for large manufacturers, let alone start ups.
So, it’s very reasonable to not have every single thing laid out as far as warranty and other such stuff.
If any of that bothers you, don’t buy it for now.
Vortex for example has a perfect product release model.
Keep things quiet while testers have the product. Make the final design, test it, then start production.
Once enough to start fullfilling orders, announce it and sell.
Zero “transparency” through the process.
Keep things quiet while testers have the product. Make the final design, test it, then start production.
Once enough to start fullfilling orders, announce it and sell.
Zero “transparency” through the process.
give me another example then of a product that doesn't even exist yet - not just any product, but a very complicated product that requires circuitry and mechanical components, etc. - where they ask for a "deposit" of 25% before offering scant proof of feasibility. Does VORTEX do that?
That's the kicker here - "come fund me", with little information from me. www.comefundmeblindly.com
And to be clear, I did just what you suggested - I declined to make a deposit, and *also* enumerated the reasoning behind this perfectly rational decision, so that others may consider the reasons. But you seem to be annoyed with my describing the reasons behind my decision, and the reasons for your apparent annoyance are not at all clear to me. So please follow suit and enumerate them.
You both have valid points, and it really depends on the market and item.
Additionally, over the past 10-15 years with the advent of crowd funding and the availability of immediate information via social media; “pre ordering” has become common very across markets.
One classic example which is very common, setting up a new car lease yet next years model is not out yet.
We may know it’s a “mustang” but we are only sure of the name and basic criteria.
In actuality we are leasing a spot in the production line.
Ive personally leased cars because of lead times which all of the options were not even listed or a brochure given, yet they required money down for my spot in line.
Additionally, over the past 10-15 years with the advent of crowd funding and the availability of immediate information via social media; “pre ordering” has become common very across markets.
One classic example which is very common, setting up a new car lease yet next years model is not out yet.
We may know it’s a “mustang” but we are only sure of the name and basic criteria.
In actuality we are leasing a spot in the production line.
Ive personally leased cars because of lead times which all of the options were not even listed or a brochure given, yet they required money down for my spot in line.
So, Hoplite is saying transparency is bad now?
Yeah. Pre orders can bite a dude in the ass, cant they?
The intersection of the seemingly personal relationship developed on a forum and the difficulty for small businesses to keep to perfect production schedules can create a lot of angst and feelings of betrayal. On the other hand, seeing a project through from conception as an early adopter with access to the actual creators offers a lot. It's something that doesn't always work well.
$150 is not a large deposit for something like this. It is pretty simple since the weighing device is already a known quantity and likely the most sophisticated part of the manufacturing. I'm in, we'll see how it goes.
$150 is not a large deposit for something like this. It is pretty simple since the weighing device is already a known quantity and likely the most sophisticated part of the manufacturing. I'm in, we'll see how it goes.
Transparency is often a strategy rather than something that is good or bad. A lot of consumers don't know shit about the inner working of products or industries, and their prejudices lead them to make bad decisions.So, Hoplite is saying transparency is bad now?
Yeah. Pre orders can bite a dude in the ass, cant they?
rhetorical.
There is a backstory there I will let the folks tell when its time.
I get the gist of the business decision.
Cool lookin gizmo. Hopefully this works out and you get it soonish.
Be curious to hear your review
So could you tell us what you're working on?
I mean you guy's have to be close to going public?
When will you have ammunition up on the website for sale?
BTW that new website looks really great, it looks like the guy did a good job.
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Pre order and paid in full are different, but sometimes information gets garbled in the grapevine.So, Hoplite is saying transparency is bad now?
Yeah. Pre orders can bite a dude in the ass, cant they?
Pre order for product and using pre order funds for cash flow purposes are also different
They only bite you in the ass if you can’t afford it.
I like my AT v3 a lot, though I detest the autothrow and just throw with a Redding before I put it on the scale, which causes the problem of not knowing exactly where zero is some of the time. But it is a lot cleaner than the autothrow and all the powder everywhere. I am waiting patiently for my v4, so I guess I will be filthy with powder throwers in the end. The biggest problem the AT has, in my opinion, is that powder that spills on the entire platen needs to be accounted for. It can be done, but it is tedious. The Supertrickler seems to have a cup sized weighing platen, similar to a chargemaster, so that would be a huge advantage. But more than anything, I like gizmos even if I spend an inordinate amount of time fixing and maintaining the ones I already have.
No grapevine.Pre order and paid in full are different, but sometimes information gets garbled in the grapevine.
Pre order for product and using pre order funds for cash flow purposes are also different
They only bite you in the ass if you can’t afford it.
Thanks for the question. But no, we will decline to post any deadlines as no one wins regardless if a deadline is met or not.
When ammunition is ready it will be available.
I enumerated that you’re asking for things that are not reasonable.
Do you know exactly what is in Tylenol or your cell phone? No. But we buy them anyway.
And also, I can name most any startup that took the same approach. The super trickler has posted numerous videos of the machine working and dumping powder virtual problem free.
AutoTrickler was at one time a start up that wasn’t proven and started the exact same way. They took deposits for V4 that was a completely different design than they ever did. And none of use asked what was in it. Just like we didn’t when the v1 was released.
I enumerated reasons that people should consider that you’re just not going to know everything about how something works. And believing that you should know these things is not realistic. In a year, if it’s been selling and working, you’ll still not know what’s “inside.”
So, Hoplite is saying transparency is bad now?
Yeah. Pre orders can bite a dude in the ass, cant they?
Transparency is subjective and not always what people think it is.
As always, we appreciate your comments over here.
Is anybody who is so very confident in the SuperCharger (Supertrickler) willing to give me odds on a $150 bet that the supertrickler has shipped 100 units by June 1st? Here it is specifically: it's a $150 stake. You, who are confident in this company, give me odds greater than 1:1 with integers in both positions and the first position is greater than the second - so 2:1, 3:1, 4:1, etc. - that the ST will ship 100 units by June 1st. If you win and 100 units ship by 6/1/2022, I owe you $150. If you lose, you owe me $150x the odds ratio. Since you are so confident in this product, you should offer me, say, 3:1 odds that the Supertrickler will start shipping by June 1st. Doesn't matter even if it doesn't work, or it's recalled, or whatever. Just that it ships 100 units by June 1st. Offer me the odds. If its's 3:1, this means you're so confident that you think there's a 75% chance (3/4 probability corresponds to 3:1 odds) that it will ship 100 units by June 1st. But if it *doesn't* ship 100 units by June 1st, you owe me 3x $150 or $450, for those unfamiliar with odds based wagers. Maybe I'll take 3:1, maybe I won't. Maybe I'll require 4:1 odds. But you decide, as the maker of the wager. What odds are the confident among you willing to assign to a successful production and shipment of the first 100 units by June 1st, 2022? Put your $$$ where your mouths are boys!
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CE approval is one of the most straightforward certifications that you can attain. It is a self declaration of conformity. A one page piece of paper that you write attesting to the the Directive within the EU that you meet and the standards that are applicable to the product. If you are above board, you get the product tested at an official certifying lab to provide the proof of conformity based on the relevant standards but that is up to you. Then you can hire that same lab to review the documents you generate for accuracy and they will issue you a Notified Body EU-Type Examination Certificate. Simple process
If getting it CE marked is the excuse, it is a not a good one. It is maybe a week of paperwork if you haven't done it previously. This product would be infantile to certify
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youd be surprised how many mistakes people make on forms that others believe are simple
i have documents that are double sign and double date.. and they are still reviewed before archiving.. and not because i want to keep them employed lol
You need to hire someone do this for you. Regulatory and safety compliance is an area best left to professionals like me. That is why large corporations pay what they do for this kind of skill.
In all honesty, EU and now the UK variant are quite easy to do but not necessarily cheap. In the US, you need FCC and if you so desire UL. UL is voluntary but when consumers are involved, it is best to complete the electrical safety certification so no one can sue you when they drop it in a pool of water and burn down their house
Like this SNAFU where some dingbat secretary filed paperwork too late and the family lost a 99 year lease on Park City Mountain Resort: https://www.denverpost.com/2014/05/...access-to-most-of-park-city-ski-area-terrain/
exactly, we charge for import paperwork creation and completion for customers if wanted
its amazing that the "crappier" the country the harder and longer the paperwork is.
Venezuela or peru (i forget) is over 140 pages for importing a vitamin not even a OTC or Scrip.
and it takes about 3-4 months...oh by the way each product needs the same process.
where england etc is a few weeks and its done.
we tell customers that they should take our service even though its expensive
of course they dont listen and after a year of trying they finally pay up
Lol, you lost me at "integers I'm both positions".
I slapped down my $150 and I'm pumped.
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Good perspective.
I had a corporation full of lawyers who took care of this sort of thing so I didn't have to get involved unless there was a question about the content or test results.
For curiosity, about how much scope would you estimate ST would be into for their testing and rating paperwork if they paid for it in the EU, just for the CE rating?
Not sure what you mean by scope but I assume you mean complexity to get everything done to be sure that your CE Mark is something you really can stand behind. There are a few phases and I have no clue what they have already done. That being said
- Period of discovery. What EU Directive does it fall under and what are the relevant standards to determine conformity. This is about a week of work
- Completion of necessary safety and risk assessment per ISO standards. Hard to say how long this will take without understanding the product's internals. I would think the risk assessment, FMEAs can be done in about 4-6 weeks if their engineers have all the information.
- During step 2 you would concurrently perform testing at an authorized test facility. I would think that EMI/EMC, BT and other electrical tests can be done in 3-4 weeks
- Another couple of weeks to complete final declarations and test summaries.
- Certification lab performs the final review and issues certificates - 2 weeks
Provided you had no failures during the test phase
I wasn't high, just a little runk LOL I just meant whole numbers so none of this 2.4:1 odds stuff
I feel ya brother.
I've spent more than a few nights in the front porch rocker with a nice drink, pup chewing a bone, getting carried away watching the stars and surfing the forums having a jolly ol time.
If it ships in 2022 I'll be happy
Thanks for the view.
It is roughly what I would have guessed in terms of time and money. I imagine they should have been planning for this in parallel, even if they were thinking of the previous arrangement with A419.
Some of the peanut gallery guesswork will be determined by how experienced their team is at the product development game. If they have done all this before is one timeline, and if they haven't it will be another. Only time will tell and I wish them luck.
Something to consider: who has the better warranty, AT or ST? The AT looks like a better option for long term DIY component replacement/repairs without the manufacturers product support. For my interest there should be decent warranty on the ST considering it’s complexity. If that thing breaks and there’s no product support it will be a bit harder to repair. This is really only applicable to the buy it for life crowd, and not the crowd that trades up every new iteration.
Holy shit. @ThePretzel bringing the fucking heat. You're like 8.5/10 on the way to earning my first and only 'like' on here.
And LOL at super serious 'field shooting' whatever the fuck that is. Let me when that shit shoots back and I might start taking you seriously.
And LOL at super serious 'field shooting' whatever the fuck that is. Let me when that shit shoots back and I might start taking you seriously.
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