Gunsmithing Surgeon Action Extraction

jonaddis84

jonaddis84

Gunny Sergeant
Commercial Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
Jan 27, 2009
2,348
20
Toledo, OH
www.area419.com
#1
Received my first custom action for a build today, and have to say Im a bit disappointed. I thought for $1300 it should be 100% perfect. Im sure most have heard of this problem, unfortunately I didnt hear about it until this weekend after they already shipped mine.

The primary extraction surface has several indentations in it, cant tell if they are tooling marks or what. Ill allow the picture and video to completely describe what I am talking about. Note that these were taken less than 5 minutes after opening the package. The sound doesnt quite pick up those first several marks you see in the picture, but I can feel them 100% when manipulating the bolt.

I understand that it will work completely fine, and under normal operation where you are quickly opening the bolt you probably wont notice it. But like I said at first, for the money, I was hoping for perfection.

Everything else so far appears to be good with the action. I do wish they would offer a m16 mini or similar extractor though.

surgeon_1.jpg

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#2
Re: Surgeon Disappointment

Not trying to sound like a dick. To me it seems that is from opening the bolt. Probably should stick with ordering parts from NASA.

But one thing I do understand. You are the customer, and you want what you are paying for.
 
#4
Re: Surgeon Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Vantastic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not trying to sound like a dick. To me it seems that is from opening the bolt. Probably should stick with ordering parts from NASA.

But one thing I do understand. You are the customer, and you want what you are paying for. </div></div>

Its not, do you notice how it clicks and jumps when moving to the right, that is not from opening the bolt. That is from the sharp edge of the bolt catching in that notch on the extraction surface.

The rifle hasnt been built yet, I just took the action out of the box 10 minutes ago. I have no doubt that it will shoot great. Just wanted to point something out that, with the vast other options for great actions out there, had I known it would be like this, probably would have gone a different route.
 
#5
Re: Surgeon Disappointment

Regardless of any personal opinion on this, have you contacted Surgeon to discuss the situation? One thing I know is that the guys there will bend over backwards for their product and if there's something wrong no doubt they'll make it right. I can't say I've dealt with many companies that I'd recommend a lot more than Surgeon from a customer service standpoint.
 
#6
Re: Surgeon Disappointment

First, have you contacted Surgeon Rifles?

There are those here that may light you up for this thread, just saying.

I would have called Stephen at Surgeon Rifles first, issue solved, new receiver going out ASAP, no questions asked. That’s how they roll.

I can her what your talking about though and certainly not the norm for the 591. I've seen more than a couple of 591's just for conversation.

The receivers from Surgeon Rifles are some of the very few receivers I'd build on and offer my guarantee with. I'll be receiving one of the first LH 591's when they come off the line for one of my personal rifle builds, they're just that good.

Please call Stephen in the AM, he'll take care of this for you.
 
#7
Re: Surgeon Disappointment

I will definitely be calling them in the morning, problem is that I handled two other 591's over the weekend that had this same exact issue. One brand new and one lightly used.

Maybe I should change the name of the thread. The action is 95% excellent, and if this was the first one I saw like this I wouldnt have ever started this thread. But after seeing two over the weekend with the same issue, then this, it just peeved me a little bit and wanted to see if others had the issue.

Im in no way shitting on the company, I want to make that clear, I dont think this thread is going to ruin their reputation for building great actions. If it is then I will remove it, I can care less. Forums are there so others can see what is out there to make informed decisions right?
 
#8
Re: Surgeon Disappointment

Dont get me wrong, I'd be upset as well and you have the right to be. I would have called Surgeon first though, thats the only thing I would have changed.

They'll take care of it for you, 100% no doubt.
 
#9
Re: Surgeon Disappointment

Jonaddis84,

There is normally a little break in at the primary extraction camming point but this is excessive. I have contacted Stephen Barrier at Surgeon. He is the head rifle builder and will get you taken care of. Just call 405-567-0183 and ask for Stephen.
Feel free to contact Stephen or myself with any further questions or comments.

Thanks,

Wade Stuteville
Surgeon Rifles Shooting Team
 
#11
Re: Surgeon Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jonaddis84</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will definitely be calling them in the morning, problem is that I handled two other 591's over the weekend that had this same exact issue. One brand new and one lightly used.

Maybe I should change the name of the thread. The action is 95% excellent, and if this was the first one I saw like this I wouldnt have ever started this thread. But after seeing two over the weekend with the same issue, then this, it just peeved me a little bit and wanted to see if others had the issue.

Im in no way shitting on the company, I want to make that clear, I dont think this thread is going to ruin their reputation for building great actions. If it is then I will remove it, I can care less. Forums are there so others can see what is out there to make informed decisions right? </div></div>

IMHO, you ARE shitting on the company. Why take this public if you have only had it out of the box 10 minutes and without giving them an opportunity to correct it first?
Sorry, but you are a whiner!
 
#12
Re: Surgeon Disappointment

Simple question. If this is not the way it should be, WHY was it not picked up by QC. Not exactly like it is built on an asembly line with one produced every 14 minutes. Just a question where was QC?
 
#13
Re: Surgeon Disappointment

Mine had the same issue. It seems like a bolt was beat into the extraction cam, mine had two dinks in it. Of course I wasn't too happy about it either, what I did was hit it with a cratex point in a dremel and then went on with getting my rifle built. This thread is making me wonder how common this is and whatever the root cause is should be fixed, but on the other hand it's not the end of the world either.
 
#14
Re: Surgeon Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AREAONE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Simple question. If this is not the way it should be, WHY was it not picked up by QC. Not exactly like it is built on an asembly line with one produced every 14 minutes. Just a question where was QC? </div></div>

second simple question. Have you eve let anything that was not quite right slip past you in your working life?

Stuff happens.

One should always make the effort with the manufacturer before opening a poop thread here. That, my friend, is the <span style="font-style: italic">simple answer</span>.
 
#15
Re: Surgeon Disappointment

Thanks for posting this, Jon. I agree with you that this thread is what forums are for: educated research prior to a purchase. I also agree that when doing educated research of Surgeon actions, most have found them to be excellent products in function and accuracy as well as top-notch service.

I think its good to know what can happen when ordering an action from Surgeon and the potential hassle/build delays from returning it to Surgeon. It's added information. Will this thread deter someone from ordering a build based on a Surgeon? Possibly. Should it? Absolutely not.

I also understand your frustration in paying a premium and not being happy. That being said, I personally would have presented the issue to Surgeon privately prior to posting it here. Primary reason is it allows Surgeon to respond without any pressure that a public forum might bring.
 
#17
Re: Surgeon Disappointment

I understand that Surgeon was recently sold, does anyone know who the current owner is, I purchased a Surgeon action two years ago, just had it barreled a few months ago and it shoots extremely well. Not trying to start a pissing contest with anyone, but it seems that this problem has cropped up before, I undestand shit happens in QC, but how often? Oh yes, would I buy surgeon again. YES. It can be frustrating when you wait for something and it is not exactly right, but you know that seems to happening more and more with Life.
 
#18
Re: Surgeon Disappointment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AREAONE</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I understand that Surgeon was recently sold, does anyone know who the current owner is, I purchased a Surgeon action two years ago, just had it barreled a few months ago and it shoots extremely well. Not trying to start a pissing contest with anyone, but it seems that this problem has cropped up before, I undestand shit happens in QC, but how often? Oh yes, would I buy surgeon again. YES. It can be frustrating when you wait for something and it is not exactly right, but you know that seems to happening more and more with Life. </div></div>


AWC Systems technology purchased Surgeon.
 
#20
Re: Surgeon Disappointment

Man I wish people would quit with the "I've had this Thing for 1 minute and see something wrong and now I have to Run to the Hide to post a trash thread" thing. My God People contact the Company first and then get on here and tell us what happened and what they said.

I'm ordering my 591 in 3 weeks....I'll let you know if its 100%. IF its not this is not where I will come first. Good Luck.
 
#21
Re: Surgeon Disappointment

And another thing....its called a Tooling mark. I see them all the time in finished parts where someone was in a hurry on the Lathe or Mill and didn't see it...hell I've done it myself. And it doesn't matter if its a 1300 dollar piece or a 20 dollar piece it happens. And thats like no more than .004" +/- .0005". Just to save the time and money for shipping...I could take that out myself. And the Machines they use to build the actions would blow your mind...but still stuff happens.

Ok done! Good luck. Sorry to sound like a dick.
 
#22
Re: Surgeon Disappointment

This was never a bash thread my friend.

I am not here promoting someone elses product, I have nothing to gain by sharing this information. I am a consumer of this product who made an observation on THREE identical products. I didnt get home, take it out of the box, notice this foreign issue and start screaming. Now with the above poster there are four instances of it.

Lets take this off surgeon for a moment. Say someone noticed an issue with a certain barrel manufacturer, and they noticed the same issue on 4 different barrels. I would consider it a disservice to the industry for that person to never share that information with other industry professionals.

Surgeon isnt going to halt production and re-tool their machines and write new programs because I (a no name guy who bought his first action from them) brought this issue to their attention. I have no doubt whatsoever that they would take care of me however they could, but that doesnt solve the next guy that needs an action immediately and doesnt have the time to send it back for a new one.

I hate how everyone thinks every thread is a bash thread when it was never one in the first place, take it for how it was meant, INFORMATION

If this continues the way it is headed I ask mods to please remove the topic, it has gotten far from where I intended it to go.
 
#24
Re: Surgeon Action Extraction

Did anyone determine is this is an isolated incident, or a design flaw? Considering it's shown up on more than one action, it seems like it is inherent to the tolerances but I don't have a dozen Surgeon actions in front of me to validate or disprove that statement.
 
#25
Re: Surgeon Action Extraction

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 71firebird400</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did anyone determine is this is an isolated incident, or a design flaw? Considering it's shown up on more than one action, it seems like it is inherent to the tolerances but I don't have a dozen Surgeon actions in front of me to validate or disprove that statement. </div></div>

The primary extraction camming surface must be tuned closely with the locking lug abutments both axially and longitudinally if primary extraction is to be maximized to maximize reliability under field conditions.
With primary extraction maximized the narrower the bolt handle camming surface the less likely that sand, crud, etc. will bind up bolt lift by affecting these tolerances, thus improving reliability again.

I have 5 personally owned Surgeon rifles each built either by Stephen Barrier or myself. I also have a 1086 and a 591 that have not been built.

The oldest rifle is serial number B000001. It is just got its 6th? barrel and has had well over a hundred thousand dry fire and full force bolt cycles on an empty chamber and has no such issues. For long term reliability they are as good as they can get. I am still trying to greak and/or wear this one out.

My unassembled actions are a 1086 serial #000003 and a most current 591. neither have these marks.

The action of the newest complete rifle was produced last fall. It was brand new when I shot it at the Rifles Only Bash and it cuased me no problems. It has these same marks now though it did not when it was built. I did not know they were there until I just looked, though, because you cannot feel them or even tell they are there while running the bolt. these marks are from the bolt being closed forcefully without a cartridge in the chamber to cushion the contact between the two camming surfaces. If you work the bolt hard on an empty chamber the bolt will make these marks but they do not affect function. Doing so without a trigger installed will magnify the problem, I am sure.

I hope this helps and again if anyone has any questions feel free to contact Stephen or myself.

Thanks,

Wade
 
#26
Re: Surgeon Action Extraction

I have built a few rifles on Surgeon 591 actions and most of them seemed to have this material build up on the extraction cam. Does this prevent the rifle from extracting or being able to work the bolt..No. Is it something that I think Surgeon should fix and it is inherent with the design..Yes.

Surgeon Actions are built like a tank. They are solid and have enough clearance to function in field conditions. But I think this extraction point on the bolt handle needs to have more material on the contact point so the extraction forces are spread over a larger area. Also, when closing the bolt this corner of the handle can move forward and peen or dent the extraction angle on the action. This is where most of the damage is done.

I dont really agree with the thought that this contact point needs to be small in order to help extract in the harshest conditions by preventing debris from getting in between the two points. I'd guess that 95% of most Surgeons are used by civilians and are not put though this extreme use. It would be like putting super aggressive mud tires on your truck when you are only off road for 5% of its life. There are too many actions out there that have lots of contact on the extraction points and do not have any issues.

Surgeon is a first class organization and makes great actions, I have never heard of any serious issues with them, I enjoy building on them. However, I think they could do a little refining when it comes to their extraction contact points.


Mark
 
#27
Re: Surgeon Action Extraction

Is that slight dent from running the bolt forward quickly? When you run the bolt forward, the first thing to touch is the bolt handle root against that cam surface. So wouldn't it be natural for a slight dent to develop there? Even on a new action, if it's tested briskly at the factory those two parts will hit at that point, right? I know remingtons are like this... and with the firing pin and trigger in, the spring will tend to keep that gap opened, such that the cam only touches when opening.
 
#28
Re: Surgeon Action Extraction

Apparently Surgeon is aware of the issue, but no one has ever taken a high quality image like I did to prove it directly out of the box. They believe the large mark at the break point is likely from someone at the shop jamming the bolt in too hard (this must have been quite a slam to make a mark like that). But the smaller marks were what really intrigued him. The action is on its way back as we speak to get repaired or replaced. I have no issues at all with Surgeon customer service as he is offering to cover my shipping costs back to them. Hopefully now that the shop is more aware of this issue now they can make some improvements to the design or manufacturing process.

Will update when I receive it back.

FWIW the function is not affected at all due to this issue, and as mentioned above, with the trigger and cocking piece installed you dont really notice it do to all the extra force required to open the bolt. But its just one of those things when you have a high attention to detail that just cant be ignored. The only time I can see it affecting function is if you had a over-pressure sticky bolt, and it would catch in that notch at the top while trying to extract the case.

It seems to me all they would need to do is reprofile the bolt surface to have more than that sharp point of contact, if that was increased only slightly I think it would completely alleviate this issue. But, there may be a reason they have not done that yet...
 
#29
Re: Surgeon Action Extraction

I can add that the pictures the OP posted show a smaller mark than the ones in my action. Mine had two dents around the same location of the larger mark shown in the first pic, and the same sort of glitchy hangup when twisting the bolt out against the extraction cam. I'll take a look tonight and see if they are still visible, as I mentioned earlier I polished them out, if still visible then I'll post a pic.
 
#30
Re: Surgeon Action Extraction

Been there, done that. There were 50 (fifty)rounds on this RSR action. The primary issue is that a "square-ish" shoulder on the bolt handle is the intended extraction mechanism. Compared to a Stiller, Defiance (and all Glenn's private lables), and other custom actions - and even Remington's and other factory offerings, etc. it is easy to see and understand why the concern exists. Most other designs incorporate angled positive extraction (or even with a slight helix as on the Defiance design). While the Surgeon design is completely functional, one does wonder why this design was chosen over mating angles. No bash. Just stating the facts from this particular action. SR

SurgeonRSR122909002.jpg



SurgeonRSR122909010.jpg
 
#31
Re: Surgeon Action Extraction

I just checked my 591 action and I don't have that "click" sound before it stops. My serial number is the C0219X range. It came from Brownell's.
 
#32
Re: Surgeon Action Extraction

So I looked at mine, I did polish out the marks on the extraction cam as received from the factory. Here is how it looks now. The bolt must be really hard to be peening the extraction cam like this though. The peening mark is from running the bolt in, mostly during dry firing, since I have only about 50 rounds through it so far and maybe 500 dry fires. Coincidentally the peen marks from the factory were close to the highlighted edges of the mark in my pic. It does click when cycling through this spot.
DSC00255.jpg
 
#34
Re: Surgeon Action Extraction

From the pictures, it looks like it is happening because the receiver is softer than the bolt. Is it too soft? Is this something Surgeon needs to correct? I am particularly interested in this because I'm collecting parts to have a rifle built. I have been reading about actions trying to decide which one I want. I had my list cut down to three choices and Surgeon was at the top of list. If bumping the bolt into the back of the receiver damages it, what is happening in the front where the lugs are?
 
#35
Re: Surgeon Action Extraction

It occurred to me regarding the peening that my action has that there is a difference between cycling the action without a round in the chamber and with a round or dummy round in the chamber.

Without a case in the chamber, when pushing the bolt forward, there is nothing to slow down the bolt. Whereas with a round in the chamber, the plunger ejector needs to be depressed, and the rim needs to snap over the extractor, which may tend to slow the bolt down. I wonder how much this may affect the peening, because the chambering cams may need to pull the bolt in against the forces that of the ejector and extractor, thus preventing hard contact between the extraction cam and bolt cam surface during normal operation of chambering a round and shooting it.
 
#36
Re: Surgeon Action Extraction

It makes a lot of difference. But I've run my 591 through many thousand full force cycles,dry. You get a little peen mark from slamming them together but you can't actually feel it. And it doesn't affect function at all.
 
#37
Re: Surgeon Action Extraction

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Morris#3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">......... But I've run my 591 through many thousand full force cycles,dry............. </div></div>
Why have you done this?
 
#39
Re: Surgeon Action Extraction

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Edds</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Morris#3</div><div class="ubbcode-body">......... But I've run my 591 through many thousand full force cycles,dry............. </div></div>
Why have you done this? </div></div>

My guess would be practice.
 
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