Surgeon Action???

And thats why they Merged with McMillian, which are also already vasty overpriced guns?

So what happens when the new overloard says "You NEED to increase production, or Your Bonus/Salary is tied to production?"

This is what happens when some fund manager or profit driver demands they get a recoup of their investment. They aren't there to break even, they are there to make a profit. Profits that are much higher than they would get from investing in the stock market.

There are internal and external drivers that force those kinds of decisions.

Its not as easy as having an owner/opperator who knows his long term stability, success of his company and repuation is based off every gun that goes out, and how his customers are treated.

The fact that they are telling people who have been waiting over a year for actions to piss off, is a good indicator of where their focus is and what they care about.



Building guns = More money. They already made more actions than guns. So convential wisdom would tell you, they will be building MORE guns. How can they build MORE guns in the same ammount of time without brining in new people or skimping on attention to deail and/or QC? A build that used to take the smith 18 hours now needs to be done in 12. What did those 6 hours represent?

Those 6 hours represent a lack consistent machine work. You don't need to be a gun smith to assemble a rifle. If everything is made to the same precision every time it is just an assembly process. Sorry bud you have no clue what you are talking about. Just because you type more words doesn't make you correct. Peace out.

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Those 6 hours represent a lack consistent machine work. You don't need to be a gun smith to assemble a rifle. If everything is made to the same precision every time it is just an assembly process. Sorry bud you have no clue what you are talking about. Just because you type more words doesn't make you correct. Peace out.

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Those "6 hours" represent a lack of time devoted to whatever they were doing. Is there some sort of magical technological advance that reduces that? Is there a reason the legacy company did not already streamline that process?

There are about 1000 reasons why production could increase at the expense of cost/quality/ect. There is no free lunch.

The same is true of high end 1911's. Why do they cost so much? Its not the parts, its not the machines(beacuse machines cannot produce them)...........its the labor. Machines can only do so much and it requires a Master with his hand tools and expertise of running said machinery to come out with the high quality end product.



Plenty of retards are putting together plenty of shitty rifles at DPMS, Bushmaster, ect. They aren't gun smiths, they are parts assemblers

GAP10, JP and custom rifles of the like, they must not be gunsmiths either right?

Your logic is flawed.
 
I never thought I'd see the day where CobraCutter made consecutive, oddly coherent and very intelligent posts. For the first time I feel the same way CC does. Could Surgeon do very well and put in the same effort and provide the same or better product, yes. With some things they have done over the past few months does it look like that's what is gonna happen, No.
 
This is such a clusterfuck of a post that I really don't know where to start, and won't be spending much time trying to correct all the errors.

If it was so easy, the orignional owner would have increased production and increased his revenue and profits. You do this through equipment, labor force, and supporting forces.

I never said it was easy. You also missed the most important element, which is brainpower (it's understandable, though, considering that most people have such little experience with it).
Most places it takes YEARS for an already competent smith to apprentice and gain the knowlegde, experince and wisdom to become a great and consistant builder.

And there is your problem, as well as the problem of most any firearm manufacturer that doesn't go by the initials "AI". If you are trying to do any sort of real volume with a standardized ("catalog") product, then you have to take this from the realm of craftsmanship into mass production. This means implementing standard work.

So if there is a sudden increase of production, Where is it coming from? Are they hiring new labor (that is almost always underskilled/under experinced) and throwing them to the wolves? Did they hire more machine opperators, QC pros and customer service (who know the products inside and out) to help facilitate this growth?

Growth means a lot of things change at once. It doesn't mean that quality falls apart. There are methods developed over the past 150 years on how to scale production without hurting quality; in fact, done properly, quality often improves (more volume means more opportunity to do things properly with tooling, fixturing, etc.).

As Deming put it:

W. Edward Deming said:
Anybody can produce quality if he lowers his production rate. That is not what I am talking about.

When someone buys a Surgeon, they expect THE BEST. That is why they are paying $5K for something that other known quanitites sell for $3K. It needs to be perfect. That level of craftsmanship, attention to detail and quality control cannot just be reproduced by hiring more bodies and machines.

You are correct that additional production cannot be had just by obtaining more resources with the present way of doing things, which is exactly the problem I was trying to point out in my previous post. Figuring this out is the problem of management, and smart management is paid the big bucks because they can lead a company through this sort of transition without the customer feeling any adverse effects. Happens every day, and people don't know it. That's when you know that it's being done right (and it's hardly ever done right in the firearms industry...)

QC is the process of checking and ensuring everything is correct, BEFORE it leaves the shipping dock. It is also the process of checking/measuring/testing parts and materials before they enter the production cycle, ensuring they are acceptable.

That's cute. That's also the sort of narrowsighted, naive description I'd expect from someone who has never spent any time inside a proper mass-production environment.

Deming's 3rd principle of quality (out of 14 total) is as follows: Cease dependence on inspection to achieve quality. Eliminate the need for massive inspection by building quality into the product in the first place.

Read those words carefully. Maybe you'll eventually get the idea that there is way more to "quality control" than a bunch of people with measurement devices who throw parts into bins labeled "pass" and "reject". If you ever get the chance to step foot into something like a modern engine or transmission plant (devices which are far more complex than any firearm, and which are made to far tighter tolerances), you'd probably be shocked at the amount of inspection which doesn't take place.

Harold S. Dodge said:
You cannot inspect quality into a product.

W. Edward Deming said:
The quality is there or it isn’t by the time it’s inspected.

High Quality companies will send back defective OEM parts on the regular for not meeting the specs. They will also shitcan parts/guns that fail to meet their quality specs at the end of assembly.

Wrong. Companies with a quality culture will work with suppliers to ensure that they don't receive defective product. Quality rejects (internal and from the customer) are incredible rare in a proper mass-production setup. One manufacturer that I worked for had internal quality failure rates in the neighborhood of a few hundred DPPM (Defective Parts Per Million) - about 0.05%. Failure rates at the customer were around 20 DPMM, or 0.002%. That's what happens when someone has their shit together. When they don't, then things obviously turn into the sort of clusterfuck where people stand around measuring parts, and defects inevitably get through to the end customers.

How did Larue's explosion work out for him?

It was exactly the sort of clusterfuck one would expect from someone who doesn't know mass production, and worse, doesn't know enough to hire management with experience in mass production. There are at least tens of thousands - if not hundreds of thousands - of people in the Rust Belt who have the required experience to mash metal into usable parts. I'm sure at least one of them would have liked to relocate somewhere warmer...

If you really want to blow your little mind, take a look at the hi end fashon industry.

Yeah, um, no thanks.

If you want to see the trickle-down from luxury to mass-production done right, the auto industry is an amazing example. Whatever class-leading technology is introduced on today's Mercedes S-class ends up in a Honda Accord or Ford Fusion within a couple of years, and with at least the same level of quality and durability (in many cases, it gets better since mass production affords better design and control methods). It's fuckin' awesome.
 
I happened to stumble across the following quote this morning doing some reading unrelated to this particular topic:

Nassim Taleb said:
This is the natural evolution of every enterprise under the curse of success: from making a good into selling the good, into progressively selling what looks like the good, then going bust after they run out of suckers and the story repeats itself

Note that this is a management problem, and not one of technical nature.
 
This is such a clusterfuck of a post that I really don't know where to start, and won't be spending much time trying to correct all the errors.

SNIP

We aren't talking about mass produced steel stamped license plates here sunshine.

You fail to understand the unique nature and attention that products like this need to get made. This is not a sheet metal factory or a fork stamping business.

You also fail to understand that this hand fitting, labor intensive relationship between a Master and the gun IS WHY PEOPLE PAY FUCKING $5k FOR THEM.

You fail to realize part of their business model was to sponsor a shooting team that displayed their product, and probably sold more rifles/actions than any other marketing. They are now gone......Why is that?

Will Surgeon continue to sponsor events like that had done in the past? Nope, beacuse holding companies see that at a loss because they are to short sighted and ignorant that they will take short term profits over long term growth.

Show me ONE boutique gun company that has exploded in size/production/quantity over the last 10 years, that still maintained it's Great reputation for producing the the finest products.................I'll Be waiting.

Companies can grow. However in THIS industry making THAT product, it takes TIME AND EXPERTISE. They have to bring in highly competent/experienced builders and it takes time to get everyone on the same page. This could include months or years of apprenticing behind someone who has done nothing but build tactical/practical rifles for the last 5 years. I can get a quickly thrown together rifle from hundreds of smiths. When I buy a Surgeon, I expect it to be meticulous and flawless. Same with GAP. However, GAP atleast will get some leway considering it is $1-2K less for the same/similar product. That extra money...... needs to be quantified to the buyer. The only logical explanation is insurance that it will be flawless.



Your a fucking moron. The BCM example is FACT. Came strait out of Paul @ BCM's mouth. So now you are calling him a liar, because some factory full of faggots in MI do it a bit different. Must be the same faggotry that produced domestic US Parts.

Your grasping at straws to try and makes apples = space shuttles comparable. These are not mass produced parts. These cannot be fit together using a CNC.

You still fail to understand the points I have made. This shit is nothing new. This old strategy has been going on forever.


So knowing all of this, Why would ANYBODY buy a Surgeon (or is it Mcmillian now)? How is it still a premium brand? Its no difference than the fashion industry (if you were actually paying attention to this thread) realizing long ago that they can make WAY MORE MONEY catering to middle/lower class with 'luxury' goods than they will selling to a small elite. They water down the products, make them in the same shitty Taiwan and Vietnam sweatshops as russel sport and wrangler............but market and sell them as premium products. Get a few celebrities to wear one of dress/suits and buy a few for advertising and now Joe blow the fucking plumber goes to Macy's any pays $125 for a pair of "designer" jeans that are no different than the $20 pair in walmart. Now the public is 'hooked' on premium cloths that cost 5 times what normal shit does, but costs the same to manufacture.

There are always idiots out there. Your posts proves this.......People continue to buy cheap, pretend premium clothing because they are idiots. Hell some people will even buy the new surgeons because its the brand after all.

Are you ready to sink $5K of your hard earned money into a new surgeon rifle?

Nice try though. You at least put some effort into it, despite being out in left field picking daisies.
 
Regardless of what happens, it doesn't seem like the original plan is intact.

Yes the majority stock was sold / traded. What has happened is I sold some stock for a nest egg for retirement someday. I also had the option to keep the rest of my stock in Surgeon or to trade if for SAC stock, the parent company. SAC has controlling interest in AWC Suppressors, TTI Armory, which is an ammo mfg company in UTAH. Also mfg rights to a AR platform rifle. I don’t know if that is public yet so I better not say the name. And now SURGEON, what is going to happen is we are now going to streamline and expand and concentrate on having actions and rifles on the shelf. I am more excited about our future than ever. Change is going to happen regardless of whom the majority owner is. We have no intention on dropping the quality one bit. In fact the quality is now better than it was in the past. About 3-4 months ago we hired Jamie Broyles to be the production manager. I am one of them guys that when I work on something the bench keeps getting higher and higher with tools until I cant find one and then it is time to clean off the bench. Jamie was managing very successful multi million-dollar corp. that made measuring equipment for the oil and gas industry. He has been a good friend for years. We were on our way to see a friend that has cancer and I learned he was unhappy with his job. By the time we were home we had agreed he was the new manager at the shop. This was change and a very good move for Surgeon. He set up processes and new procedures that is reducing our scrap. Scrap is the biggest loss we have. You guys that are on the list for 1086s were promised a delivery of XX date. What happened is we had a bad setup on one of the first operations. We didn’t realize it until one of the last operations. So instead of sending out 80 actions that were out of spec, we cut them up. This attitude to giving the customer what he is paying for is not going to change. Before the deal was done I asked my new partner “Mark” what he wanted out of this transaction. His goal is to make money, his background is accounting. That is understandable you don’t sink millions into a company to look cool. You do it to increase your bottom line. He in turn asked what I wanted out of this transaction. I told him I want to see Surgeon go from here (my hand at waist level) to here (my hand above my head). We talked and he said he didn’t want to cheapen the product up a bit. He said I only have interest in high-end companies. We are not going to make a Timex out of a Rolex. We will set new goals and figure out what it is going to take to get there. If we tell him we need 1 mil for new equipment to meet that goal. I am sure after we get the equipment he will expect that goal to be met. I would. We have never been caught up and had product on the shelf for any length of time. That will be a goal and is now why you don’t see RSRs on the shelf. If we had product on the shelf we would have time to work on LH actions. We have not had time to monitor the Internet for government contracts. We did not win the MK 13 contract for new actions because we didn’t realize what was going on. Now we can hire a guy to monitor that for us. And if we do get a big contract we will not be on the mercy of the banker to loan us money to try to fill the contract. Personally I am very excited about our future. We owe our past to our customers and our future to our customers. I do not pay the bills here. Our customers do and with out you we would be a little machine shop out here in the country working for the local factories. I want to thank you for your loyalty and help in the past and for the future. It has been and is going to be a fun Ride. It’s my dad’s fault that I haven’t been monitoring the Internet closer. We were talking about 5-6 years ago about TVs (he is now 76). He made the comment that he has never turned one on but he has turned them off many times. So according to lawyers and psychiatrists it’s my dad’s fault.

Preston Pritchett
 
Well I don't know how this will be received, but I got a call from Kelsy @ surgeon on Wed June 18th, 2014 stating that they were going to fill my back order for a 591 S/A repeater that I ordered in 2012. I then spoke to Kay on Friday the 20th and lined up payment and FFL info. She said it will ship out immediately and it is the same price now as was quoted to me back in 2012. With my LE discount it's 1241.00 shipped. Let the stones fly guys.
 
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Well I don't know how this will be received, but I got a call from Kelsy @ surgeon on Wed June 18th, 2014 stating that they were going to fill my back order for a 591 S/A repeater that I ordered on 2012. I then spoke to Kay on Friday the 20th and line up payment and FFL info. She said it will ship out immediately and it is the same price now as was quoted to me back on 2012. With my LE discount it's 1241.00 shipped. Let the stones fly guys.
That is great news.
 
Well I don't know how this will be received, but I got a call from Kelsy @ surgeon on Wed June 18th, 2014 stating that they were going to fill my back order for a 591 S/A repeater that I ordered in 2012. I then spoke to Kay on Friday the 20th and lined up payment and FFL info. She said it will ship out immediately and it is the same price now as was quoted to me back in 2012. With my LE discount it's 1241.00 shipped. Let the stones fly guys.

Both of mine will be here Tuesday also! Now I just have to figure out what the heck to build on them...
 
From the info in this thread and the few that Marc Soulie put up here it seems Surgeon is fulfilling their backorders. I also emailed my local gunsmith, Joe Collier about them and he said he has two coming in (but called for).

I don't know if this is a shift from their only-selling-complete-rifles stance or a shit-we-pissed-off-a-lot-of-customers reaction, but I'm glad they're making good on yall's orders!
 
I received mine 2 Fridays ago. I completely forgot I was on the list. I sent it back out that day to start another
Creedmoor. If Kay hadn't called me I was building a 6.5 saum, dammit. Now that will have to wait.
I have wanted a surgeon action for 5 years now.
 
I've done as much research as I can and just ordered a BAT for my next 6.5mm x 45 Laupa build. I've only had Surgeon and Stiller so I'm really hoping this action will be everything I believe it will be.
Bruno's had it stock and will be at at FFL this Thursday.
Waiting to get in line for my smith is long enough and certainly don't want to risk waiting on a surgeon for 1 year plus.
 
I have several (8, but 2 going to new homes) Surgeon based guns, GAP and Surgeon builds and love them. When it comes time for my next build other than a competition gun, it will likely again be based upon or even built by Surgeon. That said, I am building a 284 off a BAT MB action that, like the poster above, I got from Bruno's. I am overly impressed with it. Super tight tolerances, beefy as all hell. As much as I love it for the intended purpose, wouldn't go that direction for anything outside bench and/F-class. Not saying it would t work, just not for me.

I certainly hope Surgeon finds tremendous success in the future. Love their actions and rifles. Call me a fanboy--I proudly am.