Surgeon/aics/can problems UPDATE

[bowhunter_0311]

surgeon rifle built by them using aics mags.

Problem- when shooting with the can on, the mags will fall out of the mag well, about 75% of the time.
only does it with the can on there, yes the mags are inserted all of the way and no i am not hitting the mag release with my support hand. all the mags do it as well.

has anyone had this problem before?
solution- replace the spring in the mag catch with a heaver one that is about the only one that i have came up with other than contacting suppressor mfg. which I dont think that there is much that they would be able to do there other than open the baffles up (something i dont want to do)


UPDATE
recieved bottom metal back from surgeon they replaced the spring that is under the mag catch and all is fine with it now. tested it over the weekend and all mags stay in mag well.

 

[Ratwhiskers]

Re: Surgeon/aics/can problems

1. When you engage the mag, does it fasten firmly into the btm metal with the latch fully set?
2. Does the mag drop at the first shot, or does it take a round or two.
3. Is there are contact between the mag and the action inlet, that may be causing the mag to cant.
4. Does the bolt contact the top of the mag, when closing the bolt on the chamber.

It does seem that there may be some sort of vibrational upset in the mag system which the moderator is activating.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Surgeon/aics/can problems

Interesting, first off confirm back its a Surgeon DBM with ACI mags (5&10? fully loaded, last round?) and what stock, A5? Caliber? I also would like to know when the rifle was sold to you, as in "how long have you had this rifle and did you buy it new?" You stated factory build, correct?

Sorry for the questions, you found the right place to get answers, but first some data points. Ok?

In order for this to be directly attributable to your can's "suppression" (as opposed to braking impulse) <span style="font-weight: bold">back pressure</span>, gas would have to get by the bolt and that isn't happening or you would be telling us a few more points already. So, I think I know what this is, but need the data.

 

[bowhunter_0311]

Re: Surgeon/aics/can problems

ok rollingthunder it is surgeon bottem metal with aics mags 5rd and 10rd mags. it will happen with any number of rds in the mag as long as it isnt empty dont think that it does it then.

mcmillan a1-3
.308

just bought the rifle here on the hide http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...980#Post2815980

i contacted the owner he does not own a can and has never had one on the rifle. with the can off the mags will stay seated just fine after every shot...

 

[Goin'Hot]

Re: Surgeon/aics/can problems

What can are you using? Just thinking out loud here................. I know that my titanium Shark weighs 38 ounces and I can imagine it putting enoung downward pressure to possibly bow the action and pull the center up enough to keep the required spring tension to hold the mag in place.

Is there ANY play when the action is torqued down?

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Surgeon/aics/can problems

Many thanks. Simply put, bad magazine, wear or bad smithing. The functional magazine to bottom metal fit should provide more than enough lock-up to allow you to be unable to tear the magazine out if you used all your strength. New spring will do nothing except increase the return pressure of the DBM'S finger latch, it just gets the surfaces to mate up, leverage does the lock-up. IF the latch has reasonable press and return, reasonable surface geometries, well, that is all it needs and has nothing to do with mag retention.

Your issue is potentially three fold... First, the bottom metal was not set to depth, not allowing the mag's own retention punch out surface to fully clear past the BDM retaining latch fully. Of the BDM is set at an angle (really rare). Second, internal clearance issue with the BDM to stock or crap inside the BDM itself behind the release latch near the finger end not the mag end, disallowing the BDM's latch to fully return and seat below and against the magazine lock-up punch out. Thirdly, the mag's own retention punch-out is improperly formed or badly worn, IMO the most likely. There can be a forth, tremendous wear can cause the very end of the BDM latch lock-up face to become rounded. You can see this clearly too.

Why the can's involvement? perhaps a slight change in the recoil impulse from naked brake to can. A long shot, but the lock-up is so damn close to failing that that is all it takes.

Check mags, and the lock-up interface. Typed out on phone sorry for misspellings.

Titanium can weighing 38 ounces? Sorry to hear that.

 

[Wade]

Re: Surgeon/aics/can problems

Bowhunter,
I will pm you my contact info and we will get the rifle squared away. No matter what the problem is it will be taken care of. That is how Surgeon operates.

Rollingthunder,
You are not in a position to make assumtions on the smithing without having hands on.

Wade

 

[bowhunter_0311]

Re: Surgeon/aics/can problems

ok well i guess that i will contact surgeon when i get a chance this week my can is chrome molly weighing in at 28oz will let you know what they say when it gets back if it ends up going off.

 

[RollingThunder51]

Re: Surgeon/aics/can problems

Yea maybe that did read harshly, sorry, just helpful thoughts. Wear on mag or bdm latch is not a smithing issue, junk in the bdm is not a smithing issue, bad mag lock-in knock out is not smithing. Not set to depth would be. Poorly hardened or formed BDM lock geometries would be manufacturing. Just trying to get him looking in the right direction. Nothing better than what you offered and why I too like Surgeon.

In any event, it's is not the can.

bowhunter, please do let us know which one it was. If you dont want to post it out, PM me, I'm curious.

 

[RobertB]

Re: Surgeon/aics/can problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Wade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bowhunter,
I will pm you my contact info and we will get the rifle squared away. No matter what the problem is it will be taken care of. That is how Surgeon operates.

Rollingthunder,
You are not in a position to make assumtions on the smithing without having hands on.

Wade </div></div> Guess this puts another point on the reason I like surgeon.

 

[bowhunter_0311]

Re: Surgeon/aics/can problems

surgeon agrees that there is something going on with the bottom metal it will be sent to them in the next day or two. that is how a company should operate.

 

[KYS]

Re: Surgeon/aics/can problems

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Goin'Hot</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What can are you using? Just thinking out loud here................. I know that my titanium Shark weighs 38 ounces and I can imagine it putting enoung downward pressure to possibly bow the action and pull the center up enough to keep the required spring tension to hold the mag in place.

Is there ANY play when the action is torqued down? </div></div>

If you have a 38oz Ti can then something is WAY off.
In no way should a suppressor of that way cause a custom action like a Surgeon or any action for that matter to "bow". I think your have some information crossed up.

 

[Loopm5]

Re: Surgeon/aics/can problems

I have been shooting cans for awhile has anyone considered the increase in back pressure a can places on a gun. Try shooting the rifle once with a little forward pressure on the mag catch. Just a thought.

Sorry just realized someone already mentioned that. But I just shot a 308 with a can on it and I remember the rifle acting completely different in the way of recoil with sonic rounds both with the can and with out.

 

[mavrick]

Re: Surgeon/aics/can problems

Just a band aid but try on pass of electrical tape right were the mag "catch" is that should take up any play.

Dustin

 

[bowhunter_0311]

Re: Surgeon/aics/can problems

UPDATE
recieved bottom metal back from surgeon they replaced the spring that is under the mag catch and all is fine with it now. tested it over the weekend and all mags stay in mag well.