Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

[Brandon05_88]

I searched and never found exactly what I was looking for. I currently have a Surgeon 591 with a Bartlein @ 26” in .243 in a McM A5 with a Huber 2 stage trigger. My buddy let me drop my barreled action into his AICS, and now I’m sold on the AICS.

I let ADD kick in and have been eyeing an AIAE MK3. So now I’m torn between the two. The Surgeon with the 2 stage trigger in the AICS isn’t helping either.

I shoot mostly prone at the range, a few comps where you are reasonably close to transportation, and will possibly hunt with the rifle some. Practically all shooting and very little hunting. Since I shoot roughly 1,000 rounds a year, I will need to possibly re-barrel every other year, so I will need to keep changing barrels in mind.

I’d like a few of you who have owned, still own or who have considerable experience with each platform to chime in. I’d like to know more about the AI trigger. I’m curious if it is positioned too far back for someone with larger hands. Also, I know the AI triggers are roughly 3.3-4.4 lbs. Would you compare the AI trigger to a Geissele SSA or SSA-E in an AR?

 

[dieselten]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

I am 6'7" with pretty big hands. My AIAE is my hands down favorite rifle. I added spacers to get a 15" LOP and adjusted the cheek piece height. I have to admit that my hand does not fully grip the pistol grip, it is sort of slightly rotated to the right, but I still have excellent control. The Viper Skins solve this problem for an extra $200.

The trigger in my opinion is perfect. The 3.3 - 4 lbs weight is TOTAL weight. You would probably use 2 lbs to take up the first stage and that leaves about a pound or so for the final stage. My trigger is set at about 3lbs 2 oz.

This rifle is extremely accurate and consistent. Barrels can be changed by the end user. I just ordered a barrel from GAP, did not have to send in the rifle. Just screw it on when it gets here.

Another thing that impresses me is the repeatability of the AI scope mount. It retains zero so well that I can not measure the difference, and I am picky.

There are only 2 things that I do not like on my AIAE MKI. When the safety is engaged and the bolt is drawn fully to the rear, the firing pin hits the cheek piece. Nothing a little dremeling couldn't fix but for this price...

And second, the bolt lift is pretty stiff compared to other actions. I understand this is a 60 degree blah blah... but I have other 60 degree actions and they are noticeably easier to cock than my AE. The rest of the bolt/action/fit/operation is awesome.

I like this rifle so much I want to get another one... just because.

 

[jpspeeddemon]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

I've got an AE MKIII, as far as the trigger, its awesome. The 3-4 lb thing is kinda misleading. I had my first stage set to 2 lbs and the second stage set to 1 lb. The first stage has enough resistance to feel it but its not a lot by any means, so basically it feels like a 1 lb trigger.

As far as the action, you wont finda a better, more reliable, and durable action than an AI. Its smooth, so dont worry about that. The action locks up like a vault and it feels like your feed a round with a bulldozer. Extraction is superb every time in all conditions. I've shot my aE in the pooring rain with no problems, my previous high end custom had some issues with the less than ideal conditions, so i went with an AI.

Also, ease of rebarrelling was a huge selling point for me.

"Bottom line, AI rifles just work, every time all the time"
-Brian Fantana

 

[Brandon05_88]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

Thanks guys, you just cost me some money! Yesterday I received a call from Mile High after I had some questions about the MKIII. They called back yesterday expecting some in soon. I called back today and made a deposit for one. AIAE MKIII 2.0 in FDE with 26" .260 Bartlein barrel. Added adjustable butt plate, spacer kit, threaded muzzle, bore guide and AI scope mount for S&B. This is gonna be a long 1 month wait!!

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

lol 1 month wait on a nail driver? some people wait years, shouldn't be too hard, in cali we have to wait 10 days just to pick up a gun

 

[S_Lunsford]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RedDevil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Enjoy your last month with the Surgeon because I'm sure that as soon as the AI arrives, the Surgeon will be a safe queen

</div></div>

Wow, strong comment. I've used surgeon rifles, but I've never got the chance to experience an AI. What makes the AI rifle better in your opinion?

 

[Brandon05_88]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJoe</div><div class="ubbcode-body">lol 1 month wait on a nail driver? some people wait years, shouldn't be too hard, in cali we have to wait 10 days just to pick up a gun </div></div>
I waited close to 7 months on the Surgeon. 1 month should be cake. Just wish the ATF would hurry up with my 30P-1!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steven Lunsford</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RedDevil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Enjoy your last month with the Surgeon because I'm sure that as soon as the AI arrives, the Surgeon will be a safe queen

</div></div>

Wow, strong comment. I've used surgeon rifles, but I've never got the chance to experience an AI. What makes the AI rifle better in your opinion?</div></div>
They use magic accuracy dust and say a chant with an English accent. Part of the reason I started this thread is I wanted people who have used both to chime in. Don't get me wrong, I really like that Surgeon in the AICS!

 

[ashland]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

Bought a MkII a little over a year ago and rebarreled it to .260. Its a great setup. One of the great attributes about the AI is you can rebarrel yourself. Takes about 10 mins. to change it out. You will not be disappointed.

 

[alaskajetpilot]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

Just got my AIAE MK3 from Euro-optics. Just breaking her in now and could not be more pleased. Very nice rifle.

Regards, M

 

[hewlett260]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

To answer your question with a question, have you ever shot a rifle and thought to yourself what you would do to make it perfect? Just take all those thoughts and roll them into a rifle that's built like a tank, shoots like a laser-beam, and feels like you got a kiss and a shoulder massage from an angel and simultaneously witnessed that same angel ass-raping your target, and then you are almost on par with an AI. The AE's are about the best deal on the market.

 

[nexusfire]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hewlett260</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To answer your question with a question, have you ever shot a rifle and thought to yourself what you would do to make it perfect? Just take all those thoughts and roll them into a rifle that's built like a tank, shoots like a laser-beam, and feels like you got a kiss and a shoulder massage from an angel and simultaneously witnessed that same angel ass-raping your target, and then you are almost on par with an AI. The AE's are about the best deal on the market. </div></div>

If the angel was ass raping your target wouldn't that make it a dude? :s

 

[aaronfor10]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

Not necessarily... PM me if you need clarification.

 

[WhiskeyWebber]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: hewlett260</div><div class="ubbcode-body">To answer your question with a question, have you ever shot a rifle and thought to yourself what you would do to make it perfect? Just take all those thoughts and roll them into a rifle that's built like a tank, shoots like a laser-beam, and feels like you got a kiss and a shoulder massage from an angel and simultaneously witnessed that same angel ass-raping your target, and then you are almost on par with an AI. The AE's are about the best deal on the market. </div></div>

AI should use this quote to advertise their rifles.

 

[monteboy84]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

You're succumbing to peer pressure from boone I see. Let me see if I can be of assistance. Buy, buy, buy.

-matt

 

[Graham]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steven Lunsford</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RedDevil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Enjoy your last month with the Surgeon because I'm sure that as soon as the AI arrives, the Surgeon will be a safe queen

</div></div> Wow, strong comment. I've used surgeon rifles, but I've never got the chance to experience an AI. What makes the AI rifle better in your opinion? </div></div>The AEs will eject the empty brass.

 

[Dustin Morris]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steven Lunsford</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RedDevil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Enjoy your last month with the Surgeon because I'm sure that as soon as the AI arrives, the Surgeon will be a safe queen

</div></div> Wow, strong comment. I've used surgeon rifles, but I've never got the chance to experience an AI. What makes the AI rifle better in your opinion? </div></div>The AEs will eject the empty brass.

</div></div>

You just won't pass up a chance to take a shot at Surgeon for a problem that was fixed years ago. Either the problem has been fixed or these guys that have been handing out these whippings to you at Rifles Only are really awesome because they have all been shooting Surgeon actions that don't eject? It doesn't add up.

Fact: Surgeon actions have won every match at RO for at least the last 5 matches.
Fact: Surgeon actions took the top 5 places at the RO bash in 2011.
Fact: Surgeon actions took the top 3 and 7 of the top 10 places at the Bushnell Brawl this spring.

I'm sure there are more glaring statistics available but these are the ones that I knew off the top of my head.

The AI/AE is a great rifle and I don't know anyone that would ever dispute that. Now lets keep the Surgeon bashing to a minimum.

Dustin

 

[ANGLICOMarine]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

Isn't a Surgeon rifle torqued into an AICS virtually the same thing as an AIAE torqued into an AI stock? I can see the difference between AE and AW....but a custom auctioned rifle torqued CORRECTLY into an AI stock or another comparable stock seems to be almost the same thing as an AE. All that being said, I think I like the flexability I get with being able to switch actions in and out of my stock as I rebarrel or upgrade.

My .02

 

[Turk]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steven Lunsford</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RedDevil</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Enjoy your last month with the Surgeon because I'm sure that as soon as the AI arrives, the Surgeon will be a safe queen

</div></div> Wow, strong comment. I've used surgeon rifles, but I've never got the chance to experience an AI. What makes the AI rifle better in your opinion? </div></div>The AEs will eject the empty brass.

</div></div>
No cold bore issues w/ the Surgeon!

 

[Graham]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dustin Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You just won't pass up a chance to take a shot at Surgeon for a problem that was fixed years ago. Either the problem has been fixed or these guys that have been handing out these whippings to you at Rifles Only are really awesome because they have all been shooting Surgeon actions that don't eject? It doesn't add up.... Now lets keep the Surgeon bashing to a minimum. Dustin </div></div>Not true: I quite regularly pass-up opportunities to bash Surgeon.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dustin Morris</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Fact: Surgeon actions have won every match at RO for at least the last 5 matches.
Fact: Surgeon actions took the top 5 places at the RO bash in 2011.
Fact: Surgeon actions took the top 3 and 7 of the top 10 places at the Bushnell Brawl this spring.</div></div>Those facts give no credit to the shooter. I have a Surgeon. And Surgeon is a good sponsor to its team, that's true. And the team does well, because the actions don't jump off the table by themselves and shoot the stages.

Likewise, when I get beat a competition I don't blame the rifle. But when a round doesn't eject I blame the action. And it wasn't Surgeon that fixed the problem - neither my action nor Jacob's. Preston read my very polite PM describing the problem, then deleted it without a reply. So we sought help elsewhere. That's not the fault of the action either.

 

[hewlett260]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

I hope nobody thinks I am bashing Surgeon since I actually do really like them. Anyway, the AE is a great deal and anybody who has a different opinion is free to their thought. And there is no doubting that the Surgeon is a great action, so getting back to the thread topic, here is what I would do, go with the AE. The Surgeon is great but it is a custom action and If something were to need to be worked on, lead times with a gunsmith is all I'm going to say. With the AE you can get the parts and do it yourself and it only takes about ten minutes. Both badass weapons though.

 

[X-fan]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Steven Lunsford</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Wow, strong comment. I've used surgeon rifles, but I've never got the chance to experience an AI. What makes the AI rifle better in your opinion? </div></div>

Get the Surgeon near some blowing sand and you will have your frustrated answer.
I have one...Its very nice, but it is not something I let get dirty or even dusty.
The AI is more like the Glock of the tactical rifle world, but seems to give up nothing in accuracy to the tighter surgeon.

My mileage.

 

[rundm]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

I have a Surgeon .243 built by one of the builders on this site in an AI stock. It is an awesome gun. Action is very smooth, never had a problem with dirt or anything else. It is my dream gun. Kreiger spiral fluted barrel, AI stock, smoking trigger, the works. Still havn't shot it a lot yet. After everything was put together, it was quite expensive. I have an AI/AE in 308 from Mile High. The AI cost a lot less from them then my surgeon did although I don't have the bartlein barrel which would have run more. Don't think the bartlein barrel would/could do anything better than the stock barrel. Both are great guns but if I had to choose, I would take the AI over the surgeon. Both are solid as hell but there is something about the AI. Everything feels right on it. Point it down range pull the trigger and get fantastic results. It shoots as well as any custom I have and cost me a bit less than my customs did. Not trying to take anything away from any custom but I love the AI. If you have to have everything a certain way or you want something built the way you want, then the custom is for you. If not, you won't go wrong with the AI

 

[Deisel]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

My experience is the same with Surgeon actions. I have shot rifles with Surgeon actions in many field matches in dusty, windy conditions and never had a problem.

 

[Graham]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: deisel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have shot rifles with Surgeon actions in many field matches in dusty, windy conditions and never had a problem.</div></div>With the dust and wind causing a problem, I agree.

And, to be fair, once Moon fixed the problem the thing has run like a train - that's one reason I use mine as a loaner rifle.

That said, a large group of us had the same problem and we should not have had to cut into the receiver and get an expensive major modification done in order to get the action to work - only to be ignored when we gave a heads-up. Maybe the newer actions are better; they probably are. I wouldn't know anything about that.

 

[Deisel]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

Graham, I realize each of our experiences are different. I have had a GAP Surgeon, a GAP Badger action and am now shooting a Surgeon Scalpel. My Suregeon actions started with a B and a C, which is the newest. I also shoot an AI AW and AWSM. They have all run OK for me with no issues. I shoot them all in matches, except for the AWSM, and in CO an NM we get a lot of dusty, gritty wind. I have certainly seen rifles fail in the matches for various reasons. I am not trying to say your experience is any less valid than mine. I would say with any rifle there is always the possibility of failure. I believe in finding what you like and shoot it.

 

[Jaxdialation]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

I own rifles with 3 surgeon actions. Ejecting spent rounds is
a non-issue, in 3 different calibers. These are all 591 actions.

 

[Boomholzer]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

Curious.... had anything changed to alter popular sentiment from ~7 years ago to more recent times with the AI?

As I recall, AI's were always touted as reliable, strong, functioning in the military field across climate and conditions... BUT given the so-called Surgeon/Custom VS AI; there would always be some favor for the Surgeon/Custom is terms of accuracy. I have noticed that this no longer exsists as a popular argument.

Has the factory barrel changed? Perhaps the ability to now source aftermarket barrels? Or maybe my memory is crap. I am not a Surgeon fan, just a curious long-term observation.

 

[-=boone=-]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

You can buy AI rifles with a Bartlein barrel upgrade. I have a 22" Bartlein barrel on my MKII.

 

[Stubb]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

> Also, I know the AI triggers are roughly 3.3-4.4 lbs. Would you compare the AI trigger to a Geissele SSA or SSA-E in an AR?

I have a DMRs in two of my AR-15s and an SSA-E in the third. Give the AI trigger weight adjustment screw a half turn and it will feel just like an SSA-E. One of the many reasons that I went with an AI was to have a similar trigger across my long guns.

—Andreas

 

[jasonk]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

AI rifles can be just as accurate as any other.

AI triggers can be adjusted down too, one of mine is currently 2# and I love it.

 

[Pusher591]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

Kicked a pile of southern red clay mud/sand in my Surgeon while running a relay and never missed a beat. I wiped it out with my finger and ran it hard and fast without a hiccup. Either will serve you well but I love my Surgeon and they (customer service) have always been good to me.

**The above is just stating my experience with Surgeon products, SADLY I'm in no way affiliated or endorsed by Surgeon.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zu9JEoHMBPA

 

[fox.josh]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

I would stick with custom surgeon. AI's are great guns but the attention to detail surgeon has and then a custom gunsmith with his name on the line will yield better tolerances than factory produced high end guns.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fox.josh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would stick with custom surgeon. AI's are great guns but the attention to detail surgeon has and then a custom gunsmith with his name on the line will yield better tolerances than factory produced high end guns. </div></div>

who says tighter tolerances is always better? if that were the case everyone would shoot F class actions.

the AI rifles are some of the best in the world. not having to send a gun back to a gunsmith for rebarrel is a good thing not a bad especially when the gun is built like a tank and shoots lights out. of ALL my guns the two that won't leave my safe are my AIAW and my DTA, for that simple reason.

 

[poison123]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fox.josh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would stick with custom surgeon. AI's are great guns but the attention to detail surgeon has and then a custom gunsmith with his name on the line will yield better tolerances than factory produced high end guns. </div></div>

Do you actually have time behind a AI?

 

[-=boone=-]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fox.josh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would stick with custom surgeon. AI's are great guns but the attention to detail surgeon has and then a custom gunsmith with his name on the line will yield better tolerances than factory produced high end guns. </div></div>

Do you actually have time behind a AI? </div></div>

I'm betting, no.


Not to mention this is a long ago and closed conversation. The OP sold his surgeon and runs a .260 AIAE MKIII, he hasn't looked back.

 

[tylerw02]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: boone</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poison123</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fox.josh</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would stick with custom surgeon. AI's are great guns but the attention to detail surgeon has and then a custom gunsmith with his name on the line will yield better tolerances than factory produced high end guns. </div></div>

Do you actually have time behind a AI? </div></div>

I'm betting, no.


Not to mention this is a long ago and closed conversation. The OP sold his surgeon and runs a .260 AIAE MKIII, he hasn't looked back. </div></div>

Look at his posts tonight. He's got something to sell. Gotta get to 100.

 

[Bradu]

Re: Surgeon/AICS vs. AIAE

I have been doing a lot of searching and still haven't made up my mind on an AIAE or a lightly used custom built on a surgeon action. I haven't read anything bad about either, at least not enough to make it a clear decision. I don't shoot a lot in the elements and when I do it's just for deer season so I can't see that being a deciding factor. The AI will have a little bit of a wait for the caliber I want where I could have the Surgeon shipped this week.