Rifle Scopes SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

[fastbs]

I've seen a lot of talk about the illumination bleed on the 5-20x50 and having a hard time figuring out why the illum bleed is a bad thing.
Maybe someone can enlighten me.

While hunting, the useful range of the illumination on mine, for me is around 5-7.

If the illumination is too bright it will begin to throw my eye out of focus and can't see the target on the other side of the crasshairs.

So at 7 I start getting a little bleed; I can see the crosshairs. At 5 & 6 i just have the center dot.

What's the problem with this?
Isn't seeing the reticle if you want a good thing?

 

[MitchInOR]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

Seems to me if the illumination is used <span style="font-style: italic">when illumination is needed</span> and adjusted accordingly there isn't any "bleed". Only the center spot is lit. If the gain on the reticle is turned up in bright conditions the illuminations bleeds to the entire reticle.
I've tried mine out in low light and night and I like how it works, but only shoot during the day so it really isn't needed.

 

[XTR]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

When I lit mine up in the early dawn in a deer stand it mattered not, if I could see any illumination, I could see the whole mil-quad section illuminated in blurry red. There was no setting at which the center was illuminated and the rest or the reticle was not. In looking through the scope that morning I determined that for me the illumination had little to no value in those circumstances.

Against a dark background in higher lighting than the pre-sunrise glow I have tested it and it works as intended when properly adjusted.

I've also commented in the NF or SWFA thread that I've had lasik so I'm susceptible to haloing. I don't see any in normal situations or even night driving. A friend of mine pointed out to me that my X-bow scope dots (like an aimpoint with 3 dots) had a shape; I couldn't really see it w/o effort due to the haloing, to me they just looked like dots. So, to other people it just may be that the rest of the reticle is lit, to me it looks like the reticle is made of red mohair in low light.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

On the 4 scopes I bought, if you turn up the gain to where the red is visible, the whole reticle is red. But not a clean and distinct red, just a blurry red, most of the reticle's detail isn't discernible, and the red dot in the middle is just part of the rest.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

Perhaps SWFA could comment on this, please

 

[fastbs]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

Okay I'm understanding it better now.
Didn't notice any fuzz till cranked mine up brighter than it needed to be.

 

[dillon_SWFA]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

Yes this is correct.
The illumination was designed to be used when an illuminated reticle was neccesary. Not for looks.

We do not want a reticle that is going to be to bright and dilate your pupil so much that it cuts out light needed to see your target.

If you had illumination that was to bright it would dilate the pupil and draw attention away from your target.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dillon@SWFA</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes this is correct.
The illumination was designed to be used when an illuminated reticle was neccesary. Not for looks.

We do not want a reticle that is going to be to bright and dilate your pupil so much that it cuts out light needed to see your target.

If you had illumination that was to bright it would dilate the pupil and draw attention away from your target. </div></div>

I understand that, I dont think that is a problem since 1-8 on the rheostat are invisible to me even in the dark, or even when looking through a PVS14 dang near. The only problem I see is that <span style="font-weight: bold"> IF</span> only the center part of the reticle is supposed to be lit, then why are all 4 of mine almost completely illuminated like a normal illuminated reticle? The red center is almost indistinguishable from the rest of the reticle which unfortunately cant be entirely understood by the eye because its a bit of a fuzzy red cross.

 

[Mr.Maim]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

I'm seeing the same thing. In a pitch black room, settings 1-8 are too dark to be useful, while settings 9-11 are so blown out it looks like a fireworks display, in all red. I replaced the battery thinking that maybe the supplied batter was givig its last hurrah, no change.

I have contacted SWFA (via email) in hopes of getting some support on this. I have read here many times that they provide outstanding service to their customers and am hopeful that they can provide a solution. I'll report back to this thread when I've communicated with SWFA.

 

[Radar360]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

I'm not alone then. I took mine back and they replaced the battery, but I'm still experiencing the same. It's simply too dark to be useful.

I have a couple of days next week where I can go there and maybe we can figure out what's wrong.

 

[Mr.Maim]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Radar86</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm not alone then. I took mine back and they replaced the battery, but I'm still experiencing the same. It's simply too dark to be useful.

I have a couple of days next week where I can go there and maybe we can figure out what's wrong.
</div></div>

You're local to SWFA? Cool! If you do get the opportunity to go and have someone there take a look at it, could you post your experience? Puhhhhhleeeze?

I really want to get to the bottom of this.

 

[Trevor300wsm]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

It's not as if they (SWFA) don't know exactly what everyone is taking about. I have one of them and have seen 2 others on others people's rifles. It's not a isolated thing. Its like the recticle is blocking the illumination, rather than absorbing it and showing through. Most of what you see is whats spilling over the edges of the recticle, and even that is brassy and harsh. They are all like this. I doubt there is going to be a "fix". Even if they do alter the illumination design, they aren't going to go back and give everyone a new scope.

I really doubt that they will admit there is a problem, because a problem can be subjective all the way from the designer to the end user......and obviously we are all different. if your expecting NightForce type/style illumination, look elsewhere.

 

[Radar360]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

I'm sure they are reading these posts. They're good folk and I'm sure they will work with us to figure out what the problem is.

Yeah, I'll post. It might be Tuesday before I get a chance to get there but I'll post whatever comes out of it.

 

[coldboremiracle]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trevor300wsm</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I really doubt that they will admit there is a problem, because a problem can be subjective all the way from the designer to the end user......and obviously we are all different. if your expecting NightForce type/style illumination, look elsewhere. </div></div>

Thats what I'm afraid of.

 

[Burglecutt]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

Add one more to the disappointed list as far as the illumination go's, every thing else I'm happy with but the real bitch of it is I bought this scope with the intention of putting it in front of a PVS-14. When I did so the settings 1-7ish were still not visable even threw the night vision, to my understanding thats what the lower settings are for or am I wrong. Ether way aggravating, but it dose work on the higher settings and the dot actually turns into a ring.

 

[matt2143]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

I have been lucky and have messed with ALOT of scopes over the last few years and I have to say I have NEVER seen an illumination circuit this screwy. I guess it will work for some and had a design point in mind when they made it but WOW what happened to the execution. Needless to say I do not see myself using the illumination as the negatives out weigh the pros for me. On a plus note I do love the off setting between each brightness detent.

 

[Radar360]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

I took another look at my 5-20 x 50 SWFA scope before heading out tomorrow there. I compared it to another scope I own which also has illumination (which I also purchased at SWFA). As far as illuminations goes, the SWFA is much weaker.

But before heading out for an hour ride tomorrow, I decided to call first. I just got off the the phone with Skyler and he was knowledgeable about the design of the 5-20 x 50 SS scope.

He indicated that the illumination is designed to meet a Mil Spec contract. "It was designed to allow the eye to adjust".

I explained that my other illuminated scopes (which I've purchased from them) don't do that and I can see even the lowest setting and the SS scope I can't see until I hit the highest.

He said yes, that's the design of it to allow the eye to adjust and when on to explain why.

I asked him if he could post something on the Hide as I'm sure he can provide a much better explanation than I could ever.

He said he would but to give him a little time. My understanding is that he's going to try to post something today or tomorrow.

He indicated that SWFA very much appreciates input from Hide members and mentioned a few of us that have provided valuable input in the pass.

I can still go there tomorrow and have them look at it but he gave every indication that he knew what we are talking about. I think it would be a waste of time to head out there to talk about it.

I will still buy from these guys any day of the week. And the scope itself is still GTG IMHO, but that particular's scope's illumination isn't for me.

 

[winxp_man]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

My illumination works fine for me. On setting 5 it give me the best reddot that I can work with in the darkness of night. Its not over powering at all. I dont even need to go higher on the settings at all. Also lower then five I would need a NV setup.



Aron-

 

[Mr.Maim]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

I received an email first thing this morning from SWFA asking me to return the scope to their returns department. I really appreciate their quick response!

 

[Jon A]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

I know I’m sounding like a broken record here, but since I’ve used a couple of these scopes a ton and many who are complaining haven’t actually used the illumination in the field (or use the illumination on any scope much) it bears repeating.

I really wish some who think it won’t work for them would actually try to <span style="font-style: italic">shoot something <span style="font-weight: bold">in the dark</span></span> with it first to see how it works. That’s what it is for.

Yes, when looking at the illumination in the daylight with it cranked up high enough you can see it, it bleeds all over and looks like crap. I wish it didn’t but it does. But since that’s not what it’s for, that “flaw” is mostly moot in my mind.

The illumination on this scope is not intended to make the reticle glow brightly, making it “faster” or “easier to pick up” in the daylight for CQB speed. They have a 1-4X scope for that, this is a 5-20X.

The illumination on this scope is only there to allow you to place precise shots at some distance <span style="font-weight: bold">when it is so dark you can no longer see the reticle</span>—and thus <span style="font-weight: bold">NEED</span> the illumination. If you can plainly see the reticle, you don’t need the illumination—turn it off so the ugly bleeding won’t bother you.

When you actually try to <span style="font-style: italic">shoot something <span style="font-weight: bold">in the dark,</span></span> you’ll see it works very well. Like this:

Dead bad guy. The illumination got the job done. The non-illuminated version could not have made that shot.

When the same is tried with my $3000 March (for example), with the wonderful digital illumination system that looks beautiful and doesn’t bleed whatsoever, you can see the reticle and it sure does look pretty but the bad guy disappears. Much more expensive scope, much “nicer” illumination system, but it cannot make that shot. You can’t see the reticle with the illumination off because it is so dark, but you see the bad guy. You turn on the illumination to its lowest setting and the bad guy disappears because your eye is flooded with way too much light.

Many, many, many other quality scopes with illumination that nobody complains about suffer the same fate as the above mentioned March. The problem gets worse at longer ranges at higher powers as that dims the view of the target even further and with FFP scopes magnifies the illuminated reticle making it brighter.

I can only conclude more people don’t complain about those systems because not many people actually use their illuminated scopes in the dark and so the systems get judged by how pretty they look in the daylight instead of how well they actually function in the field.

 

[Mr.Maim]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

Great example and excellent pictures Jon A! How far is that target?

...but the thing is: that is how YOU use the scope. Not I. My intended use is at the outdoor range where I'm a member which is in the Arizona desert; or in the wild, in the desert. In either case my problem is twofold: 1) My range is located on the east side of some small mountains and becomes partially shaded in the early afternoon to evening. The targets are set in the shaded side of the mountains, so you end up with the sun in your face and your targets in the shadows. 2) I lose fine reticles at distance in the desert brush and rocks.

For me, the purpoe of an illuminated reticle is to assist with some contract of the reticle, but in ever changing enviornments (in terms of lighting) and difficult backdrops at small targets. I'm not shooting IN the dark, but rather INTO the dark, the difference is that preserving my night vision is not a consideration when shooting into shadows from a well-lit location.

I have "test sighted" several optis of fellow shooters at both the range and in the desert, and the illuminated reticles of Nightforce and US Optics scopes that I have viewed were outstanding in both situations. Unfortunately, I don't have $2200 to $3200 for a FFP illuminated optic from either of those vendors.

I was hoping that the SWFA would be a reasonably priced sub-$1500 optic to fill my need. We shall see. I'll send it back in and see what becomes of it.

Maybe this simply isn't the optic for my specific need. It looks like it is exactly what you were looking for!

Again, great pictures!

 

[Jon A]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr.Maim</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...but the thing is: that is how YOU use the scope. Not I. </div></div>
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to give the impression that's the only way I use the scope--just that it's the type of situation I need the illumination. Unless it's really, really, dark, I have had no need for illumination with this scope.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...The targets are set in the shaded side of the mountains, so you end up with the sun in your face and your targets in the shadows. 2) I lose fine reticles at distance in the desert brush and rocks.

For me, the purpoe of an illuminated reticle is to assist with some contract of the reticle, but in ever changing enviornments (in terms of lighting) and difficult backdrops at small targets.</div></div>
I see exactly. This is much like the shooting and hunting I do in the open or in broken terrain; sometimes on "the dark side of the mountain." The scopes I've had issues with in situations like this have been mostly SFP scopes with really thin reticles (IOR, Leupold, NF, etc). The reticles seem to lose contrast--sometimes even turning a bronze color when facing into the sun--and tend to blend into the background. I can definitely see how bright illumination of the whole reticle is helpful in those situations.

Most of the FFP scopes I've used, including this one, don't seem to suffer the same problems though. With a reticle a fair amount thicker/bolder that stays nice and contrasty I've found no need for illumination in situations such as the above where thinner SFP reticles might need it. Especially out in the open when you're using medium to higher powers (so the reticle is even bigger), I haven't had a problem seeing the reticle even aiming into the darkest of shadows...until well after sundown.

Of course your eyes may not agree with any of that. But if the scopes you're used to needing the illumination for are ones with thin SFP reticles, I'd urge you to try your replacement 5-20 in the same situations and see if the problem really exists. It just may surprise you without illumination.

Or not. I understand not everybody's eyes like the same thing and not all scopes are optimized for the same uses by all people. If you have trouble seeing the 5-20 reticle bolder reticles and/or brighter illumination will certainly be helpful. The March described above as well as the IOR 3.5-18 are a couple I've used recently that are probably the easiest to see with reticles twice as thick and much brighter illumination.

 

[fastbs]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

Thanks Jon A, your pics are exactly what I see through mine. That's why I started this thread; couldn't figure out the problem other users were mentioning. Sure if I crank the brightness way up it bleeds out but that's why there are multiple settings. If I crank mine a little brighter than in the above pics to where the reticle is visible, there is sort of a haze around the reticle but that's brighter than it is intended to be used.

 

[Mr.Maim]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

Jon A,

I think your eyes are better than mine, at least the ability to pick out light against dark.

You actually have an outstanding writeup of this optic on another forum where you compare the illuminated reticles of the SWFA compared to an IOR Valdada. Your last four pictures I think best illustrate what I'm seeing: the SWFA SS reticle is completely lost against the dark background. If there are any windage or elevation adjustments to be made using the reticle hashes, I would not be able to see them.

Your article here(excellent write up but the way!):
http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f18/swfa-super-sniper-5-20x50hd-72157/


I'm not debating the sturdiness of the turrets or the quality of the glass or the brightness of the image of the neutral hue of the colors as presented through this optic. They're all excellent. I am just trying to use the technology available to me to assist, or compensate, for a deficiency in my vision. That technology, in my sight with this optic, is not what I expected. My opinion is that SWFA's implementation of illumination needs some work. Once that is straightened out, I think it'll be a perfect optic, and I'm not saying that with nothing to go on. I have spent several hours 'glassing' with a few very nice optics in the enviorments that I shoot in, and know that what I require is indeed achievable.

...just my opinion based on my eyeballs' needs.

Edit: The March is way out of my budget. Probably going to get an IOR Valdada. That company was at the top of my list when I started this search in the first place.

Mr.Miam.

 

[Jon A]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mr.Maim</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If there are any windage or elevation adjustments to be made using the reticle hashes, I would not be able to see them.</div></div>
You are correct, of course, in the dark when using illumination you need to dial with this scope if the target is far enough away to need it--just the same as my S&B and Premier with the very well liked Gen II reticle I did so much gong killing in the dark (even over 1000 yds) with in the past. Both were excellent as well.

It's a matter of preference--if you want to hold off with the illumination, you need more of the reticle lit. If you want a better view of the target in <span style="font-style: italic">really</span> dark conditions, the ones with only the center lit generally do a better job.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Probably going to get an IOR Valdada. </div></div>

It's a very nice scope, I'm sure you'll be happy with it.

 

[Mr.Maim]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

Any update on this? Has anyone has their SWFA illumination repaired?

 

[DOA]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

Just picked up mine. Center dot visible but bleeds into the entire reticle on higher setting.

 

[earthquake]

Re: SWFA 5-20 illum bleed enlightenment

I had posted previously on my illumination "bleed", however, that was when looking through it in my house, in my hands etc. I just got it put on my rifle, took it OUTSIDE at dusk and it works perfectly. A clearly lit red-dot at center cross-hair...no "bleed" no problem!