Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

V

Viper65fr

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Minuteman
Feb 10, 2008
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South West of France
#1
I am posting to find some help from shooters who are using 30-06.

I do beleive that with a 28" twisted in 10 with a muzzle break we can equal the power of a 300 WM with less recoil and less dust signature.

I would like the input of people using that caliber over 1200 yards.

Regards

Pierre
 
#2
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

Pierre,

Bienvenue sur le Cacher

Although the 30-06 makes a most excellent LR round, the nearly 20 grain difference in case capacity between it and a 300 WM cannot be overcome, no matter how long a barrel you use.

Nevertheless, a long barrel 30-06 shooting a Berger 208 gr. VLD can easily reach 1400 yds. when started @ 2750 FPS. Hard to get it going much faster than that at sane pressures.

Bob
 
#3
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

I'm running a Mauser 98 action with a 26" 10tw barrel and getting in the mid 28's from my 208 Amax and RL22 load. Brass life is north of 10 cycles, I'm annealing the necks every 4th or so.

Accuracy is excellent and the rifle is nice to shoot.

I've got a soft spot for my 30-06 for sentimental reasons but the case in general is highly capable.

As Bob said, you're not going to make up for the extra 15gr of powder the 300WM holds, though when handloading for a specific rifle and tailoring the load you can make up a lot of ground on the factory offerings for the 300 WM.

The rifle was not built with "tactical" in mind, but here's mine. It is the blonde stock in the background, the day I took that photo my buddy and I were using those 2 rifles (the other is a 6.5-06) to smack stuff out past 1500yd.

Pics%20003.jpg
 
#4
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

Pierre, you would probably be able to push the 208/210gr bullets around 2850 fps or so.

I started with 26.5" on my 30-06, and was getting 2800 fps with moly'd 208s and 210s, using RL22 powder.

Later I cut to 22.5", and my velocities are runnig 2720 fps.

It won't be possible to match 300 WinMag ballistics. Given equal bbl lengths, the 300 WinMag will always have the potential for 150-200 fps more muzzle velocity.
 
#5
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

I fully agree but I have shot a lot of 300 WM and in africa it's a very painful caliber.

My goal is to demonstrate that the 30-06 can be an issue between the 223 and the 338. Heavy bullets in 223 I shoot them to 1000 yards it's light weight rifle when you go for deep insertion missions. The 338 is perfect for over 1800 yards shoot but only 5% of our soldier are accurate at thoses distances. If I want more power is the only choice 308 or 300WM ? no I beleive 30-06 can be tested and adopted.
 
#7
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

Sorry I am not catching this one

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#8
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Viper65FR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I fully agree but I have shot a lot of 300 WM and in africa it's a very painful caliber.

My goal is to demonstrate that the 30-06 can be an issue between the 223 and the 338. Heavy bullets in 223 I shoot them to 1000 yards it's light weight rifle when you go for deep insertion missions. The 338 is perfect for over 1800 yards shoot but only 5% of our soldier are accurate at thoses distances. If I want more power is the only choice 308 or 300WM ? no I beleive 30-06 can be tested and adopted. </div></div>

With modern powders and the good LR bullets we have now I completely agree with you. The 223 can make shots at 1k and a little further, I've had my AR15 out to 1273yd and hitting 2 foot targets (verified upon inspection) but the bullet is REALLY straining to arrive at that distance. The 30-06 was easy to make hits on the same targets at that distance, I've used mine above to hit to 1500yd and not had troubles.

I don't think that the 300WM is the only thing to play in the game and the 30-06 is more than capable of 1k-1500yd shots on soft targets. It is significantly more capable than the 308 as we all know, it isn't the 300 WM but it doesn't need to be.

Accuracy International is working with Hornady and Ruger to release the 300 A.I. (30-375 Ruger variant) and the capability there is awesome, much better than a 300 WM. The problem is back to "do we need a super sized 30 to do 1500yd work?"

Are you writing some kind of defense proposal? I think in France you're restricted from owning 30-06 because it was a military caliber, I don't know how hard it would be for you to build a test rifle. I wouldn't have a problem writing a summary of my rifle specs for you and showing a video of hitting targets at 1000-1500yd if that would help you out with your project.
 
#9
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

The european legislation over firemarms is making that likely the 30-06 will not be classified anymore in France
smile.gif


My project rifle is to be presented to my trainee who belong to the french Special Forces.

My goal is to demonstrate that this caliber can remain very interesting for our operations in africa and Afghanistan. The goal being to have a easy to carry rifle and the 338 and .50 are not that easy to carry.
we need to have a low cost ammo with the recoil of a 308 with muzzle break.
Minimum dust signature of the point of firing. Whe nthe target is hit avery one know there is a shooter around.

I work a lot with peter Sarony from armalon ltd in London over rem 700 with M16 magazines in 223 and we are looking if we can built a 30-06 rem La using BAR magazines.

I need inputs of people shooting the ammo a lot and on distances we do not have easily in europe.

regards
 
#11
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

I went down the route of a high capacity 30-06 magazine and looked immediately to the BAR mags. To use them you're stuck at a COL of 3.25" long (82.55mm) which will seriously hurt the ability to load the heavy bullets like 210gr class in a regular chamber. My 30-06 has a SAAMI spec reamer and the 208 Amax runs 3.413" (86.61mm) OAL at my sweetspot seating depth.

If you could cut a 0 Freebore throat and set those heavy bullets deep in the magazine then I suspect you can make the BAR mags work.

Since you already have the 338 magazines available they can be lightly modified (in fact, Sinclair sells a tool for it) to run the regular AI 300 WM magazines with a lip change and feed the 30-06 very reliably. As I understand it the 300 WM mags fit in the 338 mag wells, you might be able to stuff a 338 mag through that Sinclair tool and make it work, but I don't know for sure.

A 26" barreled 30-06 will still get a lot of the use from the case, no throating issues if you use the AI mags or 0FB throat for the BAR magazines and it could be a light SWS when compared to the big 338LM and massive 50.
 
#12
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Viper65FR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I fully agree but I have shot a lot of 300 WM and in africa it's a very painful caliber.

My goal is to demonstrate that the 30-06 can be an issue between the 223 and the 338. Heavy bullets in 223 I shoot them to 1000 yards it's light weight rifle when you go for deep insertion missions. The 338 is perfect for over 1800 yards shoot but only 5% of our soldier are accurate at thoses distances. If I want more power is the only choice 308 or 300WM ? no I beleive 30-06 can be tested and adopted. </div></div>

IMHO I think the 30-06 had it's day(and in no disrespect to what it has done).I have one and don't go to it for primary reason of recoil vs. ballistics,I'll stick with my .308;).The .30-06 has been tried,proven,reloaded every which way,the case help create new wildcats,etc.The round I'll say again is "tried" and VERY known of and used,til this day.Military use now.......Military(internationally speaking,including US)know quite well of the 'ought-six and haven't over-looked it,they basically dis-owned it due to NATO and I really don't believe they'll start re-chambering for .30-06 anytime soon,in any countries.Just my .02cents.Goodshootin'

~Reagan
 
#13
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

You are right but the military may change. Afghanistan is a lot different battlefield than usual. The 338 is perfect for long range the .50 too there is only one problem the weight of the rifle. If you jump from an helicopter a barrett in 50 is not a problem, if you have to carry you rifle and climb the mountains you won't love it long.

The 30-06 is past for sure the 45 is past too, ask the guys what they prefer to carry a 45 or a 9mm?

The 308 is a perfect ammo but with a limit in distance, the 30-06 can do better yep, can it do what we expect from the 300WM I am quite sure.

To be accurate at long distance you don't only need a good and accurate rifle you need to pratice a lot. I can practice 200 rds per day with a 30-06 with muzzle break or silencer, I won't do half of that with a 300WM.

In the past I met an old US colonel who told me" I prefer to be missed by a 44mag than hit by a 22". His name was Jeff Cooper.

In my mind the 338 is the 44mag and the 22 is the 30-06.

coming back to some previous post I would like more precision on the lengh of the barrel 24" 26" 28" ?

I had several contact with German Salazar who know well the 30-06. his result in prone with that ammo are quite surprising. He prefer 28" with MTU profile.

I look for fluted barrel to gain a little of weight.

On my side of the ocean people with experience of this caliber are rare that's why I come to you guy's and ask for help.



 
#14
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

24" is the shortest that I'd go on the -06 case if you're looking to shoot long distances and optimize the velocity. For a rifle that is like to be deployed at the 800m line and further than a 26" tube in 10tw is what I'd start with. Yes, it makes for a long package but right now we're sticking 27-29" 338's in the same scenario with heavier contours and muzzle brakes that stick out even more.

I shoot a 26" on my rifle with a #5 contour and it makes for a reasonable rifle. I do not subscribe to the idea that an MTU contour is required for a barrel to be "long string reliable", it needs to be manufactured properly first. I've seen a #3 contour 260 that would run circles around most people at 1000yd for shot after shot, it had a Shilen on it that just flat out shot.

Now, the 28" tube would certainly be nice, though with the mindset of upgraded deployability and something that will most likely see a suppressor on the nose, I'd probably stick to a 26" tube.

The 22.5 that MontanaMarine mentioned above gives you one data point, I am running a 26" tube with 208 Amax at 2825-2875fps (temp dependent with RL22 powder) and even at 2825 the rifle is a freaking HAMMER. Last time I had it out we got started at 600 and 1080yd and pretty quickly (less than 20 rounds) were searching for ways to make longer shots in the old strip mine, hitting everything was getting boring. It was time to find something else. 1275yd with the 178 Amax was the ticket and even longer with the 208 Amax was possible. I ran out of elevation and hold while trying to tag some rocks at 1930yd, plus the impact zone was muddy fly ash, so bullet strikes were impossible to see. I've seen it throw dirt at 1650yd before with the 208 and the plume is visible to the naked eye.

To Add: I'm not knocking anything that Mr. Salazaar said with my MTU contour comments above. His successes are well known and the rifle platform is certainly competitive, though the building parameters have different points I think. You're looking to reduce weight a lot with a slight reduction in capability (vs. the 300 WM) while his application is long shot strings from slung prone with non-optical sights. A long heavy contour and a long sight radius really makes a difference there, I'm not quite convinced that for a patroling rifle package the kind of heft is quite necessary to do the job well.
 
#15
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

extremly interesting I follow you completly

talking about the very interesting post of MontanaMarine about the 22.5 I was surprised it was only around 80fps less.

Is any one around relaoding the 30-06 with Vitha vuori powder ?
 
#16
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

I would like to try it but I don't have a source for the VV powders locally, nor do I really want to start by ordering a 1lb jug online and spending $60 for a single 1lb of powder.

Can you get Hodgdon powders in France? I'm using RL22, which is a Swedish manufactured powder under Alliant's label. If you can get Hodgdon in your country another one to look closely at would be H4831sc.
 
#17
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Viper65FR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You are right but the military may change. Afghanistan is a lot different battlefield than usual. The 338 is perfect for long range the .50 too there is only one problem the weight of the rifle. If you jump from an helicopter a barrett in 50 is not a problem, if you have to carry you rifle and climb the mountains you won't love it long.

The 30-06 is past for sure the 45 is past too, ask the guys what they prefer to carry a 45 or a 9mm?

The 308 is a perfect ammo but with a limit in distance, the 30-06 can do better yep, can it do what we expect from the 300WM I am quite sure.

To be accurate at long distance you don't only need a good and accurate rifle you need to pratice a lot. I can practice 200 rds per day with a 30-06 with muzzle break or silencer, I won't do half of that with a 300WM.

In the past I met an old US colonel who told me" I prefer to be missed by a 44mag than hit by a 22". His name was Jeff Cooper.

In my mind the 338 is the 44mag and the 22 is the 30-06.

coming back to some previous post I would like more precision on the lengh of the barrel 24" 26" 28" ?

I had several contact with German Salazar who know well the 30-06. his result in prone with that ammo are quite surprising. He prefer 28" with MTU profile.

I look for fluted barrel to gain a little of weight.

On my side of the ocean people with experience of this caliber are rare that's why I come to you guy's and ask for help.



</div></div>

they are upgrading .308 rifles to .300WM. in the US Army,so yeah they're changing,to the winmag.the Lapua .338 can do what the .300wm won't do,so it looks like there really isn't a need to change what they aren't already.Honestly i love the 'ought-six,but use other calibers more,so to each its own.

~Reagan
 
#18
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

Question. Can a supressor be used instead of a muzzle break? They can effectivly reduse recoil, ans well as the sound signature, and IMO reduce any dust being kicked up. A break, while being great at reducing recoil, does little to mask a shooters location. Also, at shots past 6-700 yds(m) it gets pretty hard to tell where a single bullet came from based on sight and sound. A supressor makes that even harder, not to mention it also eliminates most of the flash that would be seen in lower lighting. All the break is doing is directing the gasses, flash, and sound to another direction.

If you build a rifle with a 1-10 24"bbl using between 58-61gr of R22, H4350 with a 190-208gr bullet on top, its definately do-able, as that seems to be the combo myself and other folks have been sucessful with here. One other combo that I had played with was using Win760 and 208AMAX. I wasnt really trying to do any developing but I was suprised by the accuracy it gave. The plus is that the powder is a ball, and it used much less than R22 or H4350. I cant remember the charge but it was about a grain under the max charge in my Lymann manual. It let me seat the 208s without making it a compressed load.
 
#19
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....a 26" tube in 10tw is what I'd start with.....I am running a 26" tube with 208 Amax at 2825-2875fps.... </div></div>

26" seems like a great median bbl length for a LR 30-06. The 208/210s at 2800+ is serious LR performance in a reasonably user-friendly package.



When you mention 30-06, most folks can't get their head beyond Garand accuracy, and M2 ball ballistics.
 
#20
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MontanaMarine</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">....a 26" tube in 10tw is what I'd start with.....I am running a 26" tube with 208 Amax at 2825-2875fps.... </div></div>

26" seems like a great median bbl length for a LR 30-06. The 208/210s at 2800+ is serious LR performance in a reasonably user-friendly package.



When you mention 30-06, most folks can't get their head beyond Garand accuracy, and M2 ball ballistics.

</div></div>

Years ago when I built the rifle I didn't give it any special consideration, I just liked the looks of it and the tube came at 26.5" long, after I finished up the fitting process it was a touch over 26" and it's stayed that way.

I've seen your results and results from a 28 and a 30" barreled 30-06, while I don't quite get the speed I really like how my rifle looks and handles. The 30" tube was just annoyingly long and front heavy. I have been overally pretty pleased with it, very nice balance of functionality and speed, it leaves little on the table IMO.

I do appreciate the ability to walk a rifle through the woods, but this build had nothing to do with that. I wanted something to shoot a lot of. I have other stuff for tromping around in the sticks looking for meat.
 
#21
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

Something to consider when having this discussion. The US military shied away from the 210 SMK, due to its secant ogive and its reputation for being picky to load. They picked the 220 SMK which has a tangent ogive and is MUCH more forgiving, especially concerning one load to work in multiple rifles. But being heavier, it's going to be slower, which hurts range.

In addition, the Amax's are a no no for military use. Not sure if this is a US Military rule or international law, but the OTM bullets are approved, poly tipped bullets are not.

So, if you take away the 208's for that and 210's due to loading consideration, your stuck with the 220 SMK. I don't know if the 30-06 can get adequate performance from them for your purposes. I know MM has done some playing with them and can comment.

At some point you may find yourself reinventing the wheel. I shoot a 300WM. It weighs 12+ lbs field ready and I've shot up to 80 rds. in a session. I noticed it the next day, but it was tolerable. It recoils much less than my future-SIL's 308. I have a 22" barrel and am getting 2870 from 208's in front of H1000 powder. QuickLoad predicts somewhere in the neighborhood of 75 fps better velocity with Vihtavuori n560. It's a bit pricey, so I haven't tried it. But more velocity is potentially there.

If I was in your shoes, I'd deploy with a 300WM using the 220 SMK and load it similar to MK248 Mod1 which is giving 2950+ from 26" barrels. I'd cut them to 22" or 24" and like Bohem mentioned, run a #5 profile to save weight. Run a can to reduce muzzle flash, noise signature and sound signature. Even with the shorter barrel, this will give you a platform that is 1500 yd+ capable with no more weight than a .308.

Back to the 30-06 idea... Hornady just released a 208 OTM and a 225 OTM. They look to have a more forgiving ogive profile that the pure VLD's and may be something you can use in the 30-06 to get what you desire.

.02

John
 
#22
#23
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yeticowboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">180 gr sst superformance
http://www.hornady.com/store/30-06-Sprg-180-gr-SST-Superformance/

I do believe that the 180 grainers are into 300 win mag territory. </div></div>

They leave the muzzle in a hurry for sure. But if you do the ballistics the 210, 220, 225 in a 300WM catch up and pass them downrange. After 1200 yds. it's not even close. Not to mention wind, which is going to be a major factor after 500 yds. or so.

John
 
#24
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

I've got a 30.06 with a 23 in. barrel, 1-10 twist. I'm gonna do some testing as soon as I get the time. I think there is some promise with the 180's. After that I will be handloading some of their 208 Amax's and see what happens. But I agree that anything over that is a lot of projectile to push with that case. I think the OP can accomplish his stated goal with the 30.06. That round has done it's share of fighting. Whether or not a military unit would want to try using that round now is debatable. I don't see it happening.
 
#25
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

I don't see the 30-06 being put back into military service again either. Not with the 308 and 300 WinMag both up and running.

With a 26" bbl, the 30-06 should have no problem getting the 225gr to 2700 fps. I had the 240 SMK running at 2610 fps from my 30-06, at 26.5", via RL22.
 
#26
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: desertrat1979</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Question. Can a supressor be used instead of a muzzle break? </div></div>

Yes of course it work great
smile.gif


 
#27
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The 30" tube was just annoyingly long and front heavy.
</div></div>

I have a 30" barrel on my class F

 
#28
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Yeticowboy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've got a 30.06 with a 23 in. barrel, 1-10 twist. I'm gonna do some testing as soon as I get the time. </div></div>

Please keep us posted it will be very interesting.
 
#29
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bohem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Accuracy International is working with Hornady and Ruger to release the 300 A.I. (30-375 Ruger variant) and the capability there is awesome, much better than a 300 WM. The problem is back to "do we need a super sized 30 to do 1500yd work?"</div></div>

What about the 30-06 Ackley Improved any interest ?

In same army the 308 is used from year now, will they go for a 300WM not sure will they go for the 338 or the .50? Some may be ...

Like many of you have said the improvment of powder and bullets make the 223 a real option to the 308 up to 1000 yards.

I placed myself 3rd in a competition at 1200 yards with 25 competitors using 338 lapua or 338 snipetac. We won the smallest group of 5 rds with 7 inches.
I was shooting a 80grs .224. I beleive that if the 223 is not as powerful than the 22br it can do the job perfectly. On the posted video you will see one shooter using a rem700 using M16 mag, his 223 with 77grs bullets was on target at 1000 yards in Bisley and during the event, I saw many 308 out of target because of a poor reading of the wind. The event on the video was a shoot at 1000yards in 13 rds, the first one to spot, the next four ones in 40 sec one per target, next 4 in 30 sec, finally 4 in 20 sec. No time to correct your windage between shots. only 9 out of 38 shooters have been able to hit 4 targets in the same event.
 
#30
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

Given the choice, I'd rather shoot a .280 or a 6.5x55 Swede over a .30-06. Even with the advanced powders of today, I think the 7mm and 6.5mm are better performers overall when shooting non-magnum cartridges. As much as I love the Ackley Improved design, it's reliability in feeding is very much affected by the 40 degree shoulder. I think a more modest 30 degree shoulder is a far better choice for a "tactical" cartridge. My two cents.
 
#31
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ranger1183</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Given the choice, I'd rather shoot a .280 or a 6.5x55 Swede over a .30-06. Even with the advanced powders of today, I think the 7mm and 6.5mm are better performers overall when shooting non-magnum cartridges. As much as I love the Ackley Improved design, it's reliability in feeding is very much affected by the 40 degree shoulder. I think a more modest 30 degree shoulder is a far better choice for a "tactical" cartridge. My two cents. </div></div>

For a balance of weight and range in a mostly vertical environment like Afghanistan Ranger hit it on the head. A 6.5x55 Swede or even a 6.5x284 would make for a lighter (than .300WM or .338LM) package with less felt recoil that are more than capable of the extended ranges needed. There is no one tool that works for all situations but the 6.5 family may fit the Afghanistan circumstances quite nicely. Keep us posted, this is an interesting topic.
 
#32
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

If we wanted to see the maximum range of an rifle ammo not only being accurate but being able to stop the target what kind of hand gun caliber would you consider like a minimum.

If I look for a 30-06 shooting a 208 Amax can we compare it to a 200grs 45 ACP bullets at point blank ?

Can we compare a .224 90grs to a 9mm 90grs at point blank ?

One of my brits partner was telling me that to talk about a tactical rifle we not only have to hit a target but deliver stopping power to this target.....
 
#33
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

MontanaMarine and I were having a similar conversation about "maximum range, "maximum effective range" and other terms by which we describe the limits of performance of different rounds. This conversation took place shortly after we had engaged some rocks on a hillside near his house that were 2296 yards away. My 300WM shooting 208 Amax's grouped around 1 moa that day at that distance. For shits and giggles I checked out JBM's estimated velocity and energy at that distance. At 2300 yds, that load, from my rifle, on that day, had roughly the equivalent energy and velocity of a .40 S&W or .45 ACP at MUZZLE.

For soft targets at ELR, energy is NOT the problem. It's delivery.

John
 
#34
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

Excellent but in that case I keep thinking that between a 338 and a 300WM the first one is having a longer range capability.

The 338 do what the 300 do and better , the 30-06 do what the 308 do but it also do better.

In the military range from 0 to 2500 yards we have the 223 the 308 the 30-06 the 300 WM and the 338.

I don't see why keeping the 308 and the 300WM they have both an ammo doing the same plus a little bit more...
 
#35
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Training Wheels</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
For a balance of weight and range in a mostly vertical environment like Afghanistan Ranger hit it on the head. A 6.5x55 Swede or even a 6.5x284 would make for a lighter (than .300WM or .338LM) package with less felt recoil that are more than capable of the extended ranges needed. There is no one tool that works for all situations but the 6.5 family may fit the Afghanistan circumstances quite nicely. Keep us posted, this is an interesting topic. </div></div>

Yes you are not wrong but you will not find eavier than 140 grs and believe me for shooting those calibers they haven't impressed me so much. They are good but the little + is missing.
 
#36
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

I wasn't trying to justify the 300WM, I was simply responding to your question about downrange energy in terms of pistol calibers.

John
 
#37
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

The reality for US forces is 223 up close, 308 to 800-1000yds, and 300 WinMag out to 1500+ yards.

That works, and I doubt it will change any time soon.

Factory 30-06 match ammo consists of 168s, loaded to 2600 fps or so in lieu of Garand port pressure requirements. Which is to say, it is very lame. Essentially 308 168 FGMM ballistics.

The 30-06 is what it is. It splits the difference between the 308 and 300 WinMag in case volume and velocity POTENTIAL. It is a viable choice for someone who handloads. Good performance, good barrel life, fairly big bullet, not too hard on the shooter.

 
#38
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

As I understand it, the OP is looking to effect some changes in the French forces and from what little research I've done they use:

5.56x45
7.62x51
8.58x70 (338LM)
12.7x99 (50 BMG)

So there's a large gap between the capailities of the 308 and 338 which necessitates the use of a much heavier weapon platform (the 338 LM) than necessary for ranges up to, and including, 1500m.

On the note of terminal energy delivered, comparative ballistics for a 208 Amax @ trannsonic speeds (John's 2300yd hits) would be close to a 10mm auto with 210gr bullets at the muzzle.

Not quite a 41 Rem Mag but certainly not a BB gun.
 
#39
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Viper65FR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Excellent but in that case I keep thinking that between a 338 and a 300WM the first one is having a longer range capability.

The 338 do what the 300 do and better , the 30-06 do what the 308 do but it also do better.

In the military range from 0 to 2500 yards we have the 223 the 308 the 30-06 the 300 WM and the 338.

I don't see why keeping the 308 and the 300WM they have both an ammo doing the same plus a little bit more...</div></div>

I don't think you'll find many in our military that would complain about using the .338LM round. Our problem is that the military machine is HUGE and the gauntlet that must be run to qualify a component for military use is indeed daunting and the process long. The .338 is IN that process, but when it pops out the other end depends on a lot of factors. Until then the 300WM has been enhanced to bridge the gap. It is what it is.

The 30-06 just does not exist in that pipeline and hasn't for some time. If we were to revisit that, it would pretty much be a do over, due to different projectiles and powders available. Easier to use something that has been in the pipeline (we've been using 300WM for a long time) and give it a little tweak.

John
 
#41
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Outerspace</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What a great thread. </div></div>

Thank you it due to the fact that my friends here are very constructive with there inputs.

I want to take this time to thank you all for that.

If I seems to think that the 30-06 may have a second life it may be because I am an apple fan and i want to think different
smile.gif


There is time when every one think earth is flat I love to ask myself and if it was round ?

I don't say that the one of you with real arguments in favour of the 300WM are wrong. it's just that I like the idea that in the past this great ammo was one of the best on he market and that in many part of the world it remain the most popular hunting caliber.

For me in terms of recoil with a "light" gun it remain a ammo you can shoot easily.
I have been testing a few 338 rifles and when the muzzle break is efficient it's a tremendous caliber. But is not a rifle for infantry work. Our Alpine units have a hard time with the french PGM hecate in .50 , heavy to carry and with a limitation to 10 rds per day because of the "trauma" to the shooter. Our 308 FRF2 is considered having a limit to 800m.

I beleive there is room for a rifle able to shoot 1000 to 1500 yards in the battlefield. and the 308 is not the answer.
 
#42
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Viper65FR</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I beleive there is room for a rifle able to shoot 1000 to 1500 yards in the battlefield. and the 308 is not the answer.</div></div>

If this is your requirement, it's going to be a tough sell to convince anyone that the 30-06 is the answer. Don't get me wrong, in a bolt gun, the '06 round, WHEN HANDLOADED, is a very capable round and I've watched MM make consistent MOA sized groups at 1 mile. BUT, that was loaded long for his chamber, using moly'd bullets at 4000'+. To put together a rec. for a weapon system capable of 1500 yd. hits means at sea level on a cold day. For this type of envelope (read the MK248 Mod1 spec https://www.neco.navy.mil/upload/N00164/N0016409RJN30000209RJN30_0002_att.pdf Safe to click) I can't see how the 30-06 can be capable of launching heavy enough projectiles to have sufficient BC at sufficient velocities to meet such a broad range of environmental variables. According to very talented and experienced snipers in our military the 300WM with MK248 Mod1 is marginal for this mission. There are laws of physics that can only be bent so far.

Unless you were to use a 180-190 gr solid with a BC of .7
grin.gif


John

EDIT: Oh and BTW, I really DO appreciate your "Why CAN'T I do that?" attitude. We now know the earth IS round because of brave souls who would not be denied.
 
#43
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

I cant speak about the 06, mine is a Garand. What I dont understand is the comments about 338 portability. I honestly never weighed my GAP 338 before I sold it but my DTA 338 is 16 pounds. I believe it weighs less than my last 308 which had the same scope on it.
 
#44
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: shane45</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I cant speak about the 06, mine is a Garand. What I dont understand is the comments about 338 portability. I honestly never weighed my GAP 338 before I sold it but my DTA 338 is 16 pounds. I believe it weighs less than my last 308 which had the same scope on it. </div></div>

When a soldier have to carry 70 pounds to carry each pound you can save is good to save. For a civilian shooter the weight is only a problem when you shoot standing.
 
#46
Re: Tactical 30-06 bolt action rifle

I have a 30-06 with a 28" barrel. I've been able to reach 3,000 fps with a 175 gr SMK using H4350. I have used this load to 1,000 yards with good accuracy.

Now I'm using the 155 gr Scenar and RL-15. I haven't worked up to see what a max load is in my rifle, but I've gotten to 3,124 fps w/o any pressure signs at all.

CCWsGreenGiantJune132010awithODgreenAluma-HydeII.jpg
 
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