I am looking into the purchase of a new higher power scope and wanted some thoughts on gains or losses over a few brands I have found to like. The Minox 5-25 ZP5 mr4, Tangent theta 5-25 3xr, and the vortex gen 2 razor. Any comparison between these would help from optic to ease of zero stop to turrets. Thank you
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Rifle Scopes Tangent, Minox, or Vortex
- Thread starter Anthony-ss
- Start date
If you have the scratch then get the Tanget, from everything I have read it’s a scope with no flaws. It’s arguably the best that you can buy, buy once cry once and all of that...
It's not my money - buy the TT for sure.
In all honesty, if you have no experience with any of these higher end optics, then they'll probably all impress you. But if you're going to be using it a ton and the money isn't a problem, then you might as well buy a TT and be done with it. I like the looks of the Gen 3 XR quite a bit.
In all honesty, if you have no experience with any of these higher end optics, then they'll probably all impress you. But if you're going to be using it a ton and the money isn't a problem, then you might as well buy a TT and be done with it. I like the looks of the Gen 3 XR quite a bit.
I’ve been running with kahles scopes for a while now and wanted to see what maybe better to look at.
From the research I have done the Minox is on the same optical level as the tt. I am unsure the turrets between the two. As well as the eye box.
Copy - buy the TT then.
Minox is better than the Kahles optically but warranty issues really suck. They take 2-4 months to get your scope back because you send it to San Antonio, TX and then they send it to Germany from there. So 4 shipments in total, 2 of them going through customs, just makes for a long process. And they've been hit or miss on whether the issue is even fixed when it gets back. Personally, I would never spend $2k+ for that reason alone.
The Razor Gen 2 is going to be in the same ballpark as the Kahles optically. If you want an improvement, the TT is far and away your best bet. If you buy it and don't like it, I'll buy a Kahles and trade you back.
I felt the hensoldt went over the budget. And I have not looked into the Steiner. How would you say it compares to the tt if all fields. Numbers on paper are one thing but to play with and use is the more important thoughts
I have a Minox and a TT, and have had just about everything out there at one time or another (Kahles, Vortex, Premier, S&B, NF, March). In my opinion, the TT is in a class by itself, although the Minox isn't far behind. The Minox reminds me most of the Premier, minus the tool-less turrets. The glass is great, MR4 reticle is really nice, and turret feel is very good. The knurling on the turrets I think is a bit unattractive, but it feels great in the hand. Eyebox is a little tighter than the TT and some others, but it is not hard to get behind at all. I really can't complain at all about the Minox. If I needed another scope, I would not hesitate to buy another.
The TT has a slightly more crisp image. The eyebox is very forgiving. I can't really put into words how good the turrets feel. They are just fantastic and the feel is "different" than any other scope I've had. Of all those things though, the forgiveness of the parallax adjustment is probably my favorite thing about TT. You can literally set the parallax and shoot from 300 - 1000 yards without touching it.
If I had to choose between those two scopes, and money was not an issue, I'd buy the TT in a heartbeat. However, there is a pretty significant cost difference between the two. If you buy the Minox, you will always wonder how good the TT really is. If you buy the TT, you will never wonder about another scope again.
The TT has a slightly more crisp image. The eyebox is very forgiving. I can't really put into words how good the turrets feel. They are just fantastic and the feel is "different" than any other scope I've had. Of all those things though, the forgiveness of the parallax adjustment is probably my favorite thing about TT. You can literally set the parallax and shoot from 300 - 1000 yards without touching it.
If I had to choose between those two scopes, and money was not an issue, I'd buy the TT in a heartbeat. However, there is a pretty significant cost difference between the two. If you buy the Minox, you will always wonder how good the TT really is. If you buy the TT, you will never wonder about another scope again.
I know someone who tested 2 TT scopes and the scope correction factor was 1.02 on both. Near perfect.
FWIW, there's a Minox in the Optics For Sale forum here on the Hide for $2500. Screamin' deal, IMO.
(NOTE: it is not my scope and I am not affiliated with the seller in any way; I just noticed it there a few minutes ago. Your mileage may vary. Batteries not included. Always talk to your doctor first. Please drink responsibly. Whatever generic disclaimer you prefer goes here.)
(NOTE: it is not my scope and I am not affiliated with the seller in any way; I just noticed it there a few minutes ago. Your mileage may vary. Batteries not included. Always talk to your doctor first. Please drink responsibly. Whatever generic disclaimer you prefer goes here.)
The TT is amazing but definitely costs a premium. The Minox looks nice, I've not used one but have played with one. I was thinking about a Minox but the warranty wasn't as good as others. The Vortex is a fine scope, it just isn't in the same realm.
I have zero complaints about my minox and I have a TT also. For the money I think it’s very hard to beat the minox.
For the price the Minox beats everything in its class. I think the TT is overall a better optic, but $1500 better? Absolutely not.
Looked a couple days ago and Natchezss had a Khales 6-24i down to $2100.
Seems like a good deal?
Seems like a good deal?
I just got a Minox and absolutely love it also. It is incredible, and is better in every category to some degree over my Vortex AMG, which is in turn as good as or slightly better than my Gen II Razor I had before the AMG. I have absolutely no complaints about the Minox, and the only scope I have any interest at all in replacing it with is the TT, but between the fact I’d have to dump my Minox and AMG to buy it and switch between two rifles, and the huge backlog on the Gen3XR, I don’t even have any interest in that right now.
The Minox is incredible in optical performance, has great turrets, one of, if not the best center dot reticles offered by anyone, very smooth controls, very forgiving parallax, and a good eye box. I agree the warranty isn’t up to par with companies like Vortex, but I’ve heard it has been improving over the past year, and at the very least I have no worries about not being able to have it fixed if something goes wrong, even if it takes a while.
The Minox is incredible in optical performance, has great turrets, one of, if not the best center dot reticles offered by anyone, very smooth controls, very forgiving parallax, and a good eye box. I agree the warranty isn’t up to par with companies like Vortex, but I’ve heard it has been improving over the past year, and at the very least I have no worries about not being able to have it fixed if something goes wrong, even if it takes a while.
Which reticle in the Kahles?
If skmr1 or skmr3, look into zcomp. It’s basically a perfected kahles in just about every way.
Couldn't afford TT, went Minox - those turrets are basically a $1K premium over any scope, but of course you get class-leading glass as well. Currently selling to fund a ZCO; nothing wrong with the Minox, but I want to see what's up with the $3.5K optic range to see if it's really worth it.
Of the above scopes mentioned I have owned the Kahles 525 SKMR3, Tangent Theta 525P GEN2XR and Minox ZP5 MR4. I still own the Tangent Theta.
I personally would not recommend the Kahles. Unless you absolutely love any of the SKMRs, need ambidextrous controls, or focus at 20m.
The Minox ZP5 is excellent. Especially at the used price point now in the PX around $2400-2500. I really think the ZP5 is the best value scope out there. The glass is excellent, MR4 is about perfect, turrets are good, and parallax is amazing. Here is the link to my Minox ZP5 review: Minox ZP5 5-25x56 MR4 - Initial Impressions - "Pleasantly Satisfied"
The Tangent Theta's cost premium is mainly going to be an upgrade in the turret department. The turrets and toolless zero are unreal. The Gen2XR is really growing on me and in use is an outstanding reticle. From memory of the ZP5, since I no longer own it, I honestly can't tell if the Tangent Theta has better glass, I would need to have them side by side. The parallax, meaning parallax free past 300 yards, is similar, but again I would need the side by side to compare.
I have no experience with ZCO and I am anxious to get my hands on one.
In summary I have a hard time recommending the Tangent Theta GEN3XR for a $1,000 premium over the ZCO527. At the $4k price point between the TT Gen2XR and ZCO527 the decision becomes much more difficult. Having said that the differences between the ZP5 and TT525P are small and if you are cost minded I do not think you will regret the ZP5.
For what it is worth I have a review of the Tangent Theta 525P Gen2XR CCA that should be posted by weeks end.
I personally would not recommend the Kahles. Unless you absolutely love any of the SKMRs, need ambidextrous controls, or focus at 20m.
The Minox ZP5 is excellent. Especially at the used price point now in the PX around $2400-2500. I really think the ZP5 is the best value scope out there. The glass is excellent, MR4 is about perfect, turrets are good, and parallax is amazing. Here is the link to my Minox ZP5 review: Minox ZP5 5-25x56 MR4 - Initial Impressions - "Pleasantly Satisfied"
The Tangent Theta's cost premium is mainly going to be an upgrade in the turret department. The turrets and toolless zero are unreal. The Gen2XR is really growing on me and in use is an outstanding reticle. From memory of the ZP5, since I no longer own it, I honestly can't tell if the Tangent Theta has better glass, I would need to have them side by side. The parallax, meaning parallax free past 300 yards, is similar, but again I would need the side by side to compare.
I have no experience with ZCO and I am anxious to get my hands on one.
In summary I have a hard time recommending the Tangent Theta GEN3XR for a $1,000 premium over the ZCO527. At the $4k price point between the TT Gen2XR and ZCO527 the decision becomes much more difficult. Having said that the differences between the ZP5 and TT525P are small and if you are cost minded I do not think you will regret the ZP5.
For what it is worth I have a review of the Tangent Theta 525P Gen2XR CCA that should be posted by weeks end.
Agreed that what makes the TT so desirable are the turrets and the tool less zero stop (obviously the glass is top notch). If the Minox warranty has been upgraded to match I may have to take a look myself
It has not. Buddy of mine just got his back. He bought it new at the $3k mark. Had a canted reticle, so he sent it in. They sent it back un-fixed 3 months later. He sent it in again. They sent him a new scope that had a turret issue I think it was (another 3-4 months). He sent it in again and the one he got back was good. But all in all, he spent $3k and it was almost a year before he had a working scope.
The QC does seem to be hit or miss with Minox, and because of this people either love them or hate them. I think there are only 2 options for making sure you get a good one at this time:
Option 1: Buy it from a hide vendor
Option 2: Buy it in the PX from a trust hide member who has run it through the paces
I have a very different experience with Minox. Sent a scope to Blaser USA and they sent me a new one in less then a week. My Kahles warranty was like you experienced with Minox. Sent a scope to swaro on my own dime. They waited 3 weeks to send it to Austria. 3 months later it came back with a canted reticle. They wanted me to pay to ship it back to them again. No thanks on the Kahles warranty.
I think stuff happens with everyone. When optics have to go overseas to get repaired it's a waiting game.
I own or have owned a Kahles 624 and 525, 2 Minox ZP5s, Schmidt PM2s, NF, 4 Gen 2 Razors, AMG, etc etc.
Both Minox I had had issues. One had awful glass, mushy turrets, and parallax issues. The other had turrets that past 6.5 mils would not reliably line up. Glass was much better, but even then I thought my schmidts were a touch better in the resolution department. It also has a less forgiving parallax and eyebox than your schmidts, TT, etc. I have 2 TT's on order.
From my experience I'd never recommend a Minox to someone if you were buying new. Way too much risk for that kind of money and way too long of a downtime if you have an issue. The Gen 2 razor is probably the best "bang for your buck" but if you want the absolute best and it's in your budget the TT is the king of all scopes and what everything else is compared to. That said, the schmidts are still amazing scopes and can be had at pretty good prices currently. Just a matter of if you can find a reticle you like. I'm not sure if you owned the Kahles 624 or 525. The 525 is much better than the 624 optically. Much less CA (some is still there) and a bit better resolution as well. Mechnically it may be my favorite scope outside maybe the tangent. The controls and turrets are excellent and the fit and finish and size of the scope is amazing. Glass quality I'd put near the S&B honestly, maybe just a touch behind it once you get out past 800-1000 yards.
To answer your original question, if you buy a tangent you'll never need to worry what else is out there that's better. Because there is nothing in existence.
Both Minox I had had issues. One had awful glass, mushy turrets, and parallax issues. The other had turrets that past 6.5 mils would not reliably line up. Glass was much better, but even then I thought my schmidts were a touch better in the resolution department. It also has a less forgiving parallax and eyebox than your schmidts, TT, etc. I have 2 TT's on order.
From my experience I'd never recommend a Minox to someone if you were buying new. Way too much risk for that kind of money and way too long of a downtime if you have an issue. The Gen 2 razor is probably the best "bang for your buck" but if you want the absolute best and it's in your budget the TT is the king of all scopes and what everything else is compared to. That said, the schmidts are still amazing scopes and can be had at pretty good prices currently. Just a matter of if you can find a reticle you like. I'm not sure if you owned the Kahles 624 or 525. The 525 is much better than the 624 optically. Much less CA (some is still there) and a bit better resolution as well. Mechnically it may be my favorite scope outside maybe the tangent. The controls and turrets are excellent and the fit and finish and size of the scope is amazing. Glass quality I'd put near the S&B honestly, maybe just a touch behind it once you get out past 800-1000 yards.
To answer your original question, if you buy a tangent you'll never need to worry what else is out there that's better. Because there is nothing in existence.
I think this just goes to show how subjective the scope user experience can be.
I had 3 SB 5-25s and sold them and now have 3 Minox ZP5s. The glass b/w the SB and Minox is close - I like the Minox more but if someone said the SB is better I would not argue.
I like the Minox turrets more. I don't think they are more 'mushy' but I do know the spacing between the clicks is bigger and therefore I find them easier to use than the SB. I also find the eyebox on the Minox easier to get behind than the SB and the parallax adjustment b/w the 2 is the same.
I am in Canada and like everything gun related we get it later than you guys south of the border and I am curious if maybe all the bad ones ended up down there because I have not heard of any these issues up here. We also have a really good distributor up here so maybe that helps too.
To the OP - obviously the TT will be the best but I am very pleased with my Minoxes.
I had 3 SB 5-25s and sold them and now have 3 Minox ZP5s. The glass b/w the SB and Minox is close - I like the Minox more but if someone said the SB is better I would not argue.
I like the Minox turrets more. I don't think they are more 'mushy' but I do know the spacing between the clicks is bigger and therefore I find them easier to use than the SB. I also find the eyebox on the Minox easier to get behind than the SB and the parallax adjustment b/w the 2 is the same.
I am in Canada and like everything gun related we get it later than you guys south of the border and I am curious if maybe all the bad ones ended up down there because I have not heard of any these issues up here. We also have a really good distributor up here so maybe that helps too.
To the OP - obviously the TT will be the best but I am very pleased with my Minoxes.
The turret is so big and the spacing of the lines so far apart you'd need to be half blind to have an issue telling where you're at. Do you wear contacts/prescriptive lens?
Definately agree here if going with a Minox. I'm on four months waiting for a brand new Minox to be returned from warranty. Already over the stated turn around time and hasn't even made its way back to the states yet. The glass and function may be fantastic when they're working but to have that long of a turnaround time to repair it blows ass.
I love Kahles but since I bought my first minox MR4 I’ve bought another one. I have a premier I still love I’ve had the vortex and it was a good scope too but I would get the Minox or TT for sure. Another guy above mentioned the minox in the for sale section is one I’m eye balling right now for my ELR rig but my POS dodge has been in the shop for its third time in 3 weeks so it killed my gun money at the moment
Agreed. I'm honestly amazed how many people recommend them solely based off of this. I feel like Minox (from my personal observations both online personally) has had more QC issues than any high price scope manufacturer out there (on a percentage failure/send back basis) and yet people recommend them all the time. I feel like if Schmidt, NF, or others had this high of a percentage of returns people would crucify them on the Hide. Def not saying you can't get a good sample and have an amazing scope, but at 3K+ that's a hell of a gamble. But then again I see how many people play facebook raffles so maybe folks just like to ignore statistics and probability haha.
It seems the Minox is hit or miss but I figured if I’m at the price point of the Minox already to get a better warranty and maybe not be with out a scope for many months maybe worth the extra. He if Minox wants to send me the scope and if it all checks out good then I’ll send the money they might tighten up quality control.
If the TT has all the features you want by all means get one. If you're in that budget range, you should, however, at least take a look at Zero Compromise Optics as well.
If I bought a new Minox that wasn't right, I would return it to where I bought it from. Simple. I don't know of many folks having them go down after the fact. Most complaints are second rev stiffness or parallax stiffness. That second rev stiffness is actually a "feature". So take that for what it's worth. And if you work it back and forth through the second rev hardness then it does get easier. I don't like the "features" of some other scopes so I wouldn't buy them. If being stiff at 14.5-15 mils of elevation is a deal breaker "feature" for your scope then just buy something else.
This is precisely what I did with mine. And then bought another Schmidt. I def had a lemon my first one. Decided to give them a 2nd try with a brand new one and it let me down again. Wasn't going to get punked a 3rd time. Maybe I'm just that unlucky. Wouldn't be the first time!
I think the best bet is to go shoot/look through them and make an informed decision based on observation. TT, Minox, S&B....you're splitting hairs at this point. All things mechanical, break.
I've sent a Vortex back, I've sent a Steiner Military 4-16x50 Military back, I have also sent the beloved TT all the way back to Nova Scotia on MY dime.
I've sent a Vortex back, I've sent a Steiner Military 4-16x50 Military back, I have also sent the beloved TT all the way back to Nova Scotia on MY dime.
I agree. Not sure why they didn’t do that.
The other thing that impressed me negatively was the difference in turret feel between 2 identical scopes. That much sample variation in optomechanical components is not a sign of well controlled production processes. JMHO
The Minox I had featured great glass and reticle MR4. The turrets were mushy. The stiffness into the second rev they have stated to people sending them in that it was an issue, not a feature. The second rev indicator is just a hole that turns white. I would not buy one again without feeling it unless it was a steal, $2200 or less for immaculate condition.
Kahles 525i I have I like everything about. If you can get used to, or prefer parallax on top with the elevation turret they are great scopes.
TT I had is the best, but sold it to grab another rifle. ZCO I would love to try.
Kahles 525i I have I like everything about. If you can get used to, or prefer parallax on top with the elevation turret they are great scopes.
TT I had is the best, but sold it to grab another rifle. ZCO I would love to try.
I had a K525i with the SKMR3 and sent it back, I liked all the features of the scope but the CA I saw thru it was unacceptable at that price point. Ended up going with the Minox ZP5 with the MR4 reticle and after being behind it for a short time I realized just how crystal clear the optic is, I always joke that its clearer than real life lol. Ive heard the TT is a little better, I cant comment on that as I've yet to look thru one but for slightly better turrets and tooless zerostop that was not a $1500 difference for me to jump up to the TT
People think the only difference between a Zp5 and TT is the “slightly better glass” and the tool less zero. It’s really not. The QC level of TT, the speed and ease of warranty, and better internals, and overall fit and finish are what make it worth $1500 more.
Dude, if TT is on the table, get that. Why even ask?
As for the gen 2 razor, I'm considering getting one of those --Eurooptic has 'em on sale. The 3-18 is $1450, normally $2200 and the 4.5-27 is $1850, normally $2500. Both have EBR reticles. The 3-18 is $750 off and the better deal. Then there's 3% off for bank checks and maybe they'll even honor vet discounts (but I doubt it). Everyone is saying it's a deal not to pass on. There's one for sale used for $1350 on here I'm told.
As for the gen 2 razor, I'm considering getting one of those --Eurooptic has 'em on sale. The 3-18 is $1450, normally $2200 and the 4.5-27 is $1850, normally $2500. Both have EBR reticles. The 3-18 is $750 off and the better deal. Then there's 3% off for bank checks and maybe they'll even honor vet discounts (but I doubt it). Everyone is saying it's a deal not to pass on. There's one for sale used for $1350 on here I'm told.
I had Minox and returned it because turrets were drifting. My buddy had same issue and he returned his Minox also. Buy TT if you have $$$ you won’t regret it.
Thank you. Im glad someone said it haha. Side by side if you break them down the tangent wins in every category I can think of except price
Until TT comes out with better reticles I would not consider dropping that kind of money on one.
