orkan, word of business advise. Something in the nature of "I understand you have had issues with our product that you have spent your hard earned money on in the past. But i am confident the new improved version will suit your needs much better" will go MUCH further than being an asshat to your potential customer base that votes with their $.
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Rifle Scopes Tangent Theta - Professional Marksman
- Thread starter orkan
- Start date
orkan, word of business advise. Something in the nature of "I understand you have had issues with our product that you have spent your hard earned money on in the past. But i am confident the new improved version will suit your needs much better" will go MUCH further than being an asshat to your potential customer base that votes with their $.
It looks like a nice scope. I still think premier was one of the nicest scopes I used to this day. (3-15x I paid 2099.99 new). It was great till I took it out and I lost zero with it 2 weeks after I bought it. Before that I had a mark 4 that was a FFP conversion 6.5-20x, garbage. Now IMHO: I think this is crazy over priced (but I am no expert in optics, I run HDMR's and NF optics). Companies are going to straight up price there products into a zone that is not affordable. Every week the shooting goes up in price and it becomes more unaffordable to people. If they price there scope in a competitive range of lets say 2499.99 and 2999.99 for the 5-25x they could make enough sales (IF it is in fact moon and stars product) to justify the lower price. The optic MIGHT, I say MIGHT be a hit. Ill hold off and keep my HDMRs and Nightforce scopes. After I am glad for a North American company.
Problem with that response: It's not their product you had issues with. It's not a "new and improved version." It's a new company, with a new product, that just so happens to have purchased the company whom you had issues with. Getting it yet?
If selling something to someone was my only goal, I'd be the politician you seem to want to buy from. Yet I have loftier goals. I want to be happy.
... and for me to be happy I need to be honest with people and explain things as I know them to be. So when you explain this as if Tangent Theta is Premier, and because you had problems with premier, Tangent Theta should sell their scopes at bargain basement prices until they prove to you they are worthy... I'll take it upon myself to help educate you to the facts. Especially when you call my customers that have purchased these scopes already "fools." Sorry if my statement offended you, but it doesn't change the truth of it one bit. Tangent Theta is here to stay.
MTC = More Tactile Click. Basically it's a heavy click, at a set interval. On the mil scopes it's every full mil. So you feel a heavy detent at the full mil. This allows you to count out heavy clicks, and then count out light clicks to get precise and fast adjustments even in no light scenarios.
It hasn't been done "perfectly" until now, so in the past it was a love-hate thing which could result in the first .1 click past a heavy click being kinda hard to get into.
It hasn't been done "perfectly" until now, so in the past it was a love-hate thing which could result in the first .1 click past a heavy click being kinda hard to get into.
TT315M Gen2XR reticle, mil/mil/ffp - $2,998
TT315M MOA reticle, moa/moa/ffp - $2,998
TT315P Gen2XR reticle, mil/mil/ffp - $3,697 (please specify MTC or no MTC)
TT315P MOA reticle, moa/moa/ffp - $3,697 (please specify MTC or no MTC)
TT525P Gen2XR reticle, mil/mil/ffp - $4,250 (please specify MTC or no MTC)
TT525P MOA reticle, moa/moa/ffp - $4,250 (please specify MTC or no MTC)
I wish Tangent Theta all the luck in the world and welcome the competition . However I'm going to have to agree with others on their price point . You can say that this is an all new company but its the same scenario as Premier . New optic company challenging the big boys and look how that worked out . It has to be in the back of your mind when thinking of ordering . The extra $1K isn't helping . I think I'll let others spend their money on it and wait for some real world feedback .
It'll be really interesting to see how this turns out for them. It seems like the conventional strategy for a new name in this industry is to offer more for less. To break in where there are well established names you have to offer more for less. This company seems to be taking a different approach.
I think they have to recognize that they are going to be perceived by the majority of consumers as a company that has rebranded a known product, made some small improvements and increased the price by 30%. If Premier couldn't sell enough scopes at about 3k to stay in business I don't know how these guys expect to sell what is perceived as basically the same thing at 4k and remain relevant in the market. I worry the pricing is based on the need recoup what they've sunk into the project quickly due to lack of capital. They're wagering that buyers in this market don't see the price difference as significant. At this point my personal perception is that the name change and uncompetitive pricing are worrisome. It makes me wonder whether these guys will be around in the long run to warranty the scopes or if buyers will end up stuck with $4000 tactical paper weights if they eventually need service and repairs.
That being said I wish them the best of luck. In my mind more options are always better
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I think they have to recognize that they are going to be perceived by the majority of consumers as a company that has rebranded a known product, made some small improvements and increased the price by 30%. If Premier couldn't sell enough scopes at about 3k to stay in business I don't know how these guys expect to sell what is perceived as basically the same thing at 4k and remain relevant in the market. I worry the pricing is based on the need recoup what they've sunk into the project quickly due to lack of capital. They're wagering that buyers in this market don't see the price difference as significant. At this point my personal perception is that the name change and uncompetitive pricing are worrisome. It makes me wonder whether these guys will be around in the long run to warranty the scopes or if buyers will end up stuck with $4000 tactical paper weights if they eventually need service and repairs.
That being said I wish them the best of luck. In my mind more options are always better
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It seems that it only looks similar, it isn't the same scope. Hmm... maybe they made a mistake by making it look too much like the Premier.
I personally think it looks awesome.
I actually love my Premiers... never had a problem... but in the future, I'd love to pick up a TT.
I personally think it looks awesome.
I actually love my Premiers... never had a problem... but in the future, I'd love to pick up a TT.
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I for one will be very interested in seeing how well these scopes do. I've been waiting for over 13 months for the NF Beast to materialize and no such luck. It's been shown at TWO shot shows and the delays keep coming. I really would prefer a nightforce product, but I'm thinking that at some point, it might be worth a $1k premium over the Beast just to be able to actually have one in hand. Also, $1k isn't what is was 5 years ago. Everything has gone way up in price due to inflation. In a few years, we might be thinking a $4k scope is mid-range...
If that's the case I'm going to have to find a way to make a lot more money or find another hobby.
Thinking outside the box, having read the article(s) that I've found on TT, and considering what went in-to the new scopes & by whom was all involved (product parts, components and the brains behind it all) I'd be willing to bet they're eyeing a stab at the same "contracts" S&B, Nightforce, Hensoldt etc etc are all competing for in regard to military and Police around the globe. There probably is merit to statements about the price being where it is to re-coup/cover costs more efficiently, but all things considered, the civilian market for the scopes is probably not intended as the primary market... (same case as the big Henny's and Schmidts, or even f1's & BEAST for that matter.) The guys that can/wish-to afford those scopes.. they'll buy regardless. The guys that can't/but wish they could, will continue to complain about prices and talk about how much better "ie:a company" could do if their product was $1000-1500 less.
At the end of the day & all bull$hit aside... I doubt it's the civilians these guys are banking on paying their bills anyway. In reality, the product is "there" for you if you can afford it/they'll sell and support the civilians that buy them (which is a huge appreciation to guys like myself that do wish to have such a product be available to us) but really-- it's the U.Sam's and such that they're (probably) more concerned with helping pay bills* ...not the handful that buy & use them just because they can-- those sales are (in my opinion) more like "bonus" sales rather than "primary" sales
Think about that
I agree with most here, crazy expensive... These scopes seem pretty amazing, but not much different than the Premiers at a higher cost. I personally don't buy that they have made as many changes as they claim while the aesthetics are almost identical to the Premiers. I'm no expert though. After seeing the new Vortex Razor Gen IIs and their feature sets and reticles, that seems like the way to go for a $1,400-$1,700 savings. Just my opinion...
In the middle of the perfect lighting condition day, you are correct - the high end scopes doesn't do much more that the mid range, $1500 scopes. But in bad lighting situations, the high end scopes shine vs the mid range scopes. The high end scopes continue to provide sight pictures that allow accurate fires on properly identified targets, which you can't confidently do with the mid range scopes.
An example of this: at the Alleghany Sniper Challenge there is a stage called "Heart of Darkness"... its a >1000yd target sitting in a very shady, deep hollow in the ground. I was up there in poor weather conditions: foggy, rainy, generally low lighting. The guys running Benders and Premiers could see the target and, importantly and challenging, splash. Most of these guys made 2nd round hits - see their splash on the first round, make the correction and sent it. Most guys running the mid range scopes did not have similar success.
That is what the additional $'s are buying.
I agree with this. I've seen first hand the difference between a Steiner 3-15X50 and Nightforce NXS 3.5-15X50 in a similar situation. The extra $$ spent on better glass is nice. Although I've rarely encountered these situations in competitions, I have been able to locate animals who hide in shady spots much easier than another hunter with less quality optics, even after I talked them into exactly where the animal was. Put them on the better optics and they see the animal almost right away. This was with binoculars (Zeiss versus Nikon, both 10X) but still gets to the point of better optics providing better target ID.
Geb
I can understand Hensoldt, Bender pricing up. You get .mil and .gov contracts and you bleed taxpayers dry (we all know how those deals happen and how much lubrication is required) and you simply cannot bring such scope on civilian market @2000 (taxpayers might start asking awkward questions - which noone likes to hear or have to reply to or at best your manufacturing capacity is so full you simply do not need to sell your product lower..). But for the scopes without rich contract base and sure market @preset prices trying to compete with those big boys is just plain silly. If there was some global market analysis i'd bet that civilian top 20% by volume would be below 2.5k(usd).
As people said with such rich selection of quality scopes going from 1k and upwards TT has decided to slice up a very small piece of cake and regardless of the tool used there is not much to cut but hey who gives a shit what few asshats on public forums say right, they've done their business plan, market analysis and probably some media lubrication to smooth things out surely this time around it will work...third time is the charm they say.
As people said with such rich selection of quality scopes going from 1k and upwards TT has decided to slice up a very small piece of cake and regardless of the tool used there is not much to cut but hey who gives a shit what few asshats on public forums say right, they've done their business plan, market analysis and probably some media lubrication to smooth things out surely this time around it will work...third time is the charm they say.
If that's how you justify the additional $2600 that's fine. But I don't have the problem you mention, and I shoot out to 1300yds frequently. Maybe my eyes are younger, who knows. But until my "midrange" scopes fail to get the job done, I'll be spending that extra $2600 on barrels, bullets, and beers.
I don't know , and nor have I touched a TT, but just from the marketing point of view, it would seem with a more competitive price, they could capture a much larger market share, and then keep it.
But from a sizzle point of view...make a product, charge more than the customer can afford, then make him wait for it.
But from a sizzle point of view...make a product, charge more than the customer can afford, then make him wait for it.
In this quote they are so close to a Premier, they would have been sued if TT didn’t acquire them.
Problem with that response: It's not their product you had issues with. It's not a "new and improved version." It's a new company, with a new product, that just so happens to have purchased the company whom you had issues with. Getting it yet?
If selling something to someone was my only goal, I'd be the politician you seem to want to buy from. Yet I have loftier goals. I want to be happy.
Sorry if my statement offended you, but it doesn't change the truth of it one bit. Tangent Theta is here to stay.
In this quote, they have nothing in common, and it’s a completely different product.
You Sir have more spin than James Carville. You might actually want to look into a life in politics. I prefer products that sell themselves based on performance, not future promises of it.
Good luck.
You must tell me about this $1400 scope with 28 mils on two turns of the turret, and an externally adjustable tool-less zero stop. I'd love to carry them.
You seem to be dangerously confused. Using ONE patented feature that is owned by another company warrants a lawsuit. They don't have to be very similar for this to happen. You should look into a life in news broadcasting, the way you twist facts to suit your argument is a landmark trait.
You say you prefer products to sell themselves? Then sit back and wait. They'll be along soon enough. In the mean time, be kind enough not to confuse yourself.
Getting it to market is only the first battle in the war you are fighting. They have to prove themselves off of the shelf and in the real world, not in your mind. The number one fan of a product is always the salesman.
I can assure you that your spin isn't confusing me; in fact, it is shinning more light onto what I was already thinking.
I hope TT does well and ends up being another great scope option, but for right now, that verdict is still out.
I can assure you that your spin isn't confusing me; in fact, it is shinning more light onto what I was already thinking.
I hope TT does well and ends up being another great scope option, but for right now, that verdict is still out.
Figured I'd pile on...you're welcome.
I ended up with three of the Bushnell HDMR G2 scopes when they came out because of the excellent price and features of a brand new scope; albeit in an established company, maybe a little different than TT's case. Maybe I'm ill-informed or naive, but until the HDMRG2 release it seemed the Bushnell brand was very limited and behind the curve with respect to tactical shooting. Those scopes absolutely flew off the shelves and shortly, the price adjusted from the intro discount ($1100 if memory serves) to a more appropriate price point. More variations followed, and now I don't consider $1500 a terrible price for a factory Bushnell Elite Tactical scope. If I'd been asked 5 years ago if I could see myself spending $1500 on a Bushnell, I'd LOL all over the floor. I have Nightforce, SS, IOR, Leupold, Premiere, Bushnell, Vortex, and Sightron in my stable right now. I'll be adding my first Steiner thanks to Scott at Liberty Optics.
I have got to agree with some of the naysayers who lament the terrible introductory price. I've got lots of $$$ in gear. But, $4000 is just too high. Could I? Yes. Will I? No. I hope its the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I need a little enticement to plunk down that much hard earned cash on something that most likely will not outperform my beloved Razors.
I ended up with three of the Bushnell HDMR G2 scopes when they came out because of the excellent price and features of a brand new scope; albeit in an established company, maybe a little different than TT's case. Maybe I'm ill-informed or naive, but until the HDMRG2 release it seemed the Bushnell brand was very limited and behind the curve with respect to tactical shooting. Those scopes absolutely flew off the shelves and shortly, the price adjusted from the intro discount ($1100 if memory serves) to a more appropriate price point. More variations followed, and now I don't consider $1500 a terrible price for a factory Bushnell Elite Tactical scope. If I'd been asked 5 years ago if I could see myself spending $1500 on a Bushnell, I'd LOL all over the floor. I have Nightforce, SS, IOR, Leupold, Premiere, Bushnell, Vortex, and Sightron in my stable right now. I'll be adding my first Steiner thanks to Scott at Liberty Optics.
I have got to agree with some of the naysayers who lament the terrible introductory price. I've got lots of $$$ in gear. But, $4000 is just too high. Could I? Yes. Will I? No. I hope its the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I need a little enticement to plunk down that much hard earned cash on something that most likely will not outperform my beloved Razors.
Those two options in no way make the TT $1000-$2000 better than the competition and I'm sure many other shooters would argue the same. Who really gives a rats ass about tool-less zero stop? Perhaps I'm just not tacticool enough but I set my zero and leave it, dialing and holding as needed.
It's obvious that TT is trying to be the Knights Armament SR-25 of the optic world when it comes to pricing.
I guess I'm struggling to understand how you get the $1000 to $2000 over the competition estimate.
I view the competition and the competition's prices as follows:
Bender PM II 5-25: $3500
Hensoldt 6-24: $3300
Nightforce BEAST: $3300
Premier 5-25: $3500
Steiner 5-25: $3200
Leupold Mark 8 3.5-25: $4000
March 5-40: $3400
USO 5-25: $3100
Kahles 6-24: $3400
For average price of ~$3400, range about $3000 to $4000. So TT's 5-25 at $4200 is about $500 to $1000 high, not $1000 to $2000.
Is my price list that high, or is my competition list excluding valid comps (for example, Vortex and Leupold Mk 4's)?
My best guess is that over time, the new TT price 'drifts' down to the $3500 level, i.e. parity w/ the PMII 5-25...
I didn't say those two options did. I'm simply pointing out that those claiming these scopes bring nothing to the table which you can't get at a cheaper price... are wrong.
Lots of people, actually. For instance, every single customer that I've sold a Desert Tech SRS to. It's quite nice to not have to bring out tools or remove your turret cap to rezero after changing calibers in the field. There are lots of things a $4000 scope can do that a $1400 scope can't. Were that not the case, we'd all be using $1400 scopes.
I meet a lot of people that have never owned a top end scope in their lives, from any maker, trying to convince others that they "don't need" that top end scope. Always talking about what a waste of money it is. Yet the majority of the people that own top end scopes always ask people what their budget is, before making a recommendation. If they have means, then they recommend the best there is. If not, they recommend the best in the price range. NEVER do I see those people trying to convince others that cheap scopes give you the same thing as expensive scopes. To say you get the same thing from a $4000 scope that you do a $1400 scope is bullshit. Pure and simple.
You can complain about price all you want gentlemen, it won't be changing anytime soon. (unless it goes up) You can't justify the price? No problem. Godspeed and there are lots of other cheaper scopes. ... but just because you can't justify it, doesn't mean you need to misrepresent the facts to discourage others from buying them. I've seen this happen with EVERY single top end scope brand there is in the last 10 years. It will continue to happen. That same crowd will try to convince someone that a Camaro is just as good as a lamborghini. "I mean hell, they both go down the road... AM I RIGHT?!?!?!" This idea that the best products in the world should be priced with the mediocre products is bullshit at best and communistic at worst.
These scopes will be taking their place among the top, if not THE top, riflescopes on the planet... and you'll have heard about it first right here in this thread. They DO sell themselves, and they ARE selling themselves. Took several orders already from people that ACTUALLY TOUCHED ONE at SHOT Show. They know what they're buying and they know I wasn't spewing sales bullshit. Their OWN eyes and OWN hands verified the same things I told them. Know what a hilarious thing about every single person that's bought one so far whom has seen this thread? They say "what the hell is wrong with those people? It's not your job as a dealer to try to figure out what they can afford. All the whining about price has really cluttered up that thread." They are right. It's not my job to help you justify your purchasing decisions. It's my job to give you the best information that I can, so if you DO end up buying something, that my reputation will be intact. Does me no good to sell something which people will be unhappy with. I've yet to sell something to someone that couldn't afford to pay for it.
So in short... enough with the crying about price. After four pages of it, I'm pretty sure people understand they are expensive, and too expensive for most of you. Most people can't afford a lamborghini either. Can't afford it or just don't want to pay that much? No problem! Easy solution: Don't buy one. Maybe you need to see me about a vortex, nightforce, or kahles... but remember the truth: These scopes are in a category all their own. Those buying them, are making NO COMPROMISES. No amount of bitching, whining, lying, misinformation, or lack of justification will change that.
Premier has more alias than most criminals lol. I never thought they would be branded under another name yet. Price IMO too high but I'm no high roller. Buy a Beast, Kahles, Steiner, March etc for less and atleast you will know the company is stable and product is every bit as good and way cheaper.
So the way you understand this thread, is that Premier has changed names? No other changes, just a re-branding huh?
Amazing abilities you have, to be able to say other products are just as good as this. So you've received a Tangent Theta scope, and tested it against those other products then? Here I thought no one had, and all we had to go on were features and impressions from SHOT show. You must really have some good connections somewhere. ...and of course you must have all the other scopes on that list, and could provide a picture right quick... right?
I know they changed it , thought that was obvious enough with a whole thread I didn't need to mention it. No I don't own one. But when someone drops $4400 on it I'd would like someone to show me something it will do better than my March 5-40 or any other scope in the $2800-3500 price point.
I've had a Premier and yes it had good glass ,worked good , etc but glass wasn't any better than rest mentioned nor any of the rest of it. Wondering how they justify the price hike? Scope market inflation is getting out of hand.
I've had a Premier and yes it had good glass ,worked good , etc but glass wasn't any better than rest mentioned nor any of the rest of it. Wondering how they justify the price hike? Scope market inflation is getting out of hand.
You guys commenting on something you never saw just because of the price needs to grasp reality.
It's a good scopes, the parent company has a solid name in the business and have been doing high end optics in one form or another. As well, the Optronika / GSO guys did in fact come from S&B. They are behind scopes like the Steiner as well, not just the Premier. The fact is, the Premier was priced wrong which was part of the problem. Fixing the scope, redesigning it, building a factory in Canada, buying the name and rights, etc... all cost money. If the market, beyond them was not moving into the "over $3k bracket" maybe it would have been close to $3500 instead of $4200, but you have Trijicon, S&B, Hensoldt, all above $4k... so it makes sense to be in a place that puts you at the top, and can sustain your brand.
I saw it, I talked frankly to the company, I think it will be a real winner. It might be this year, but in 3, most will be chasing this scope.
It's a good scopes, the parent company has a solid name in the business and have been doing high end optics in one form or another. As well, the Optronika / GSO guys did in fact come from S&B. They are behind scopes like the Steiner as well, not just the Premier. The fact is, the Premier was priced wrong which was part of the problem. Fixing the scope, redesigning it, building a factory in Canada, buying the name and rights, etc... all cost money. If the market, beyond them was not moving into the "over $3k bracket" maybe it would have been close to $3500 instead of $4200, but you have Trijicon, S&B, Hensoldt, all above $4k... so it makes sense to be in a place that puts you at the top, and can sustain your brand.
I saw it, I talked frankly to the company, I think it will be a real winner. It might be this year, but in 3, most will be chasing this scope.
I spent 4 days at Shot Show ...mostly looking at optics...I went to Tangent Theta....4 separate times...each time looking through the scope, working the turrets...making adjustments, etc...I then went to the Nightforce booth... right across the hall....did the same things with their Beast...then went to Kahles...same thing...then Steiner....Then Schmidt and Bender.....then US Optics....then downstairs to March and Vortex. Only went to Hensoldt twice and Leupold twice. Then took my business partners along on the last day to get their honest opinions...to make sure I was not missing something. No...I was not able to put them into field conditions and test them for 45 days. It is only my opinion based on 4 days of observations and handling. I really like looking at scopes in the halls, and main showrooms, as there are always dark corners and shadows up in the top of the complex to look into. Field conditions? No...but it is as good as a person can do under the circumstances. My conclusions ...not that anyone cares...since it is only one mans opinion... are as follows: The Tangent Theta was my favorite, followed by the Beast...then Kahles. I was very impressed. Then after meeting the owners of Tangent Theta and seeing their other mature optic products...they will be around for a long time. Take it for what it is worth...I will be putting my own money down for a Tangent Theta. I already own a Steiner military, Nightforce Atacr, US optics 5-25, Vortex, and Leupolds.....and I know that ownership does not equal expert.....none the less.... the Tangent Theta was the most impressive, and will get my hard earned money. For what it is worth....
Wow, the marketing department needs to reign you in before you open your mouth anymore. Every time you go on a rant, you make TT look more and more like a two bit used car lot. You likening these scopes to a Lamborghini is almost beyond laughable. That Lamborghini is priced that way because it has a proven track record, what record does TT have?
The price thing is getting old, it isn't even something to complain about. They can price it how ever they want, the market will determine if it was priced right or not.
Anyway, I'm done with this one. The last scope I bought was 4200 dollars, the next time I spend that much on a scope, I can guarantee you it won't be a TT, based solely on how you have represented the company. Keep up the good work salesman, your strategy is working marvelously.
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LOL ain't that the truth. When I saw the $7K sticker of some of the newer scopes, I laughed out loud... but then I remember when I said the same thing about scopes that were over $3K... and of course I own a few now.
Punish the brand, refuse to own the scope, because you don't like one of the dealers? Sounds logical.
Typical "shoot the messenger" shit.
Punish the brand, refuse to own the scope, because you don't like one of the dealers? Sounds logical.
What about TT makes it better than a S&B?
Punish the brand, refuse to own the scope, because you don't like one of the dealers? Sounds logical.
Apparently customer service, marketing, and public relations wasn't part of your business education. Go take a class at your local community college, you need it.
Wow this thread has gotten out of control! Hahaha orkan you should chill and let the haters hate... I'm one of those that thinks these are too expensive but if I could afford one, I'd be ordering one. I coveted the Premiers for years.
Like others have said, they can be priced how ever they want but the market will dictate weather it's the right price. I'm in sales as well and I've learned, sometimes price is the ONLY deciding factor. Not rocket science, just people's rationalization of that fact.
Like others have said, they can be priced how ever they want but the market will dictate weather it's the right price. I'm in sales as well and I've learned, sometimes price is the ONLY deciding factor. Not rocket science, just people's rationalization of that fact.
You aren't a dunce, you are an obvious intelligent guy, but your tactics pitching this optic are giving me an awfully bad taste in my mouth. I've never seen another scope maker or dealer attempting to pimp their wares as you have on the hide. You are probably a really good guy, but that isn't translating with your attitude through this thread.
Being successful at owning or operating a business doesn't make you a successful salesman or PR guy.
I'm sure everyone is tired of this nobody chiming in, so I'll attempt to slide back into the shadows. Cheers
Being successful at owning or operating a business doesn't make you a successful salesman or PR guy.
I'm sure everyone is tired of this nobody chiming in, so I'll attempt to slide back into the shadows. Cheers
