Rifle Scopes Tangent Theta - Professional Marksman

[c1steve]

I think the quality is what they say it is, and the that the TT scopes are a big upgrade. For a consumer who does not "need" that level of equipment, they would be best off spending $1,000 less. However for a professional or someone that uses their equipment often and in less than ideal conditions, this will probably be a good investment.

I drive a 12 year old Honda, but ride two $4,000 bicycles. To some people that is crazy, but to others I have my priorities straight. If you do not need that level of equipment, pay less. Still, if the prices were $500 less, that would be the sweet spot.

 

[orkan]

What you call tactics victory, I simply call relaying the facts. Sorry we got our signals crossed, but it's clear we're on a disconnect. I never have had much patience for people talking about things which they have no experience with, not that I'm saying you were. There is a lot of it going on in this thread, however. I'm very excited about these scopes. Not because we're selling them, but because of what it means to those that will be using them!

Wow this thread has gotten out of control! Hahaha orkan you should chill and let the haters hate... I'm one of those that thinks these are too expensive but if I could afford one, I'd be ordering one. I coveted the Premiers for years. Like others have said, they can be priced how ever they want but the market will dictate weather it's the right price. I'm in sales as well and I've learned, sometimes price is the ONLY deciding factor. Not rocket science, just people's rationalization of that fact.

Great post. It was worth repeating.

 

[918v]

What about TT makes it better than a S&B?

What makes anything better than a Bushnell?

 

[The Lawn Ranger]

Most of us weekend shooters will never shoot to the level to truly appreciate/optimize a $4k optic. I own a used Gen1 Kahles K624i, an older NXS, and a Meopta ZD and they are all the scope I could/would ever want or need….I do not think a $4k optic is going to make the target any easier to hit.

Good God. The scopes looked good at ShotShow....but they didn't look 4k+ good :/

 

[19Scout77]

I never have had much patience for people talking about things which they have no experience with.

+1...I am curious, how many times have YOU shot one at distance? Box drills? Bad weather? Heavy recoil? Confirmed the accuracy of the adjustments? Dealt with TT customer service? Received feedback from skilled shooters who have actually put them through the paces? Mounted one? Zeroed one? Operated the toolless reset under field conditions? Dropped the scope on cement/rocks? Got bore cleaner on the objective? Etc, etc, etc.

 

[peaceatwar]

What makes anything better than a Bushnell?

I wasn't trying to start shit I am asking a question that I believe hasn't been answered.

 

[918v]

I'm not saying you're trying to side shit.

But the question you're asking cannot be answered. Not by anyone on this site. The reason is it would have to involve the release of super secret ninja information.

The stuff that can be discussed: image quality, how the clicks feel, etc. are all opinion.

Therefore, which is better is not the question. Which one YOU like better is.

 

[peaceatwar]

I'm not saying you're trying to side shit.

But the question you're asking cannot be answered. Not by anyone on this site. The reason is it would have to involve the release of super secret ninja information.

The stuff that can be discussed: image quality, how the clicks feel, etc. are all opinion.

Therefore, which is better is not the question. Which one YOU like better is.

Well I am reasonable person, and a scope freak. I probably would buy a TT if I understood why it offerred $1000 more utility than a S&B 5-25. So far all that I see is that it comes with the Gen II XR (not that great) and the zero-stop. To me those two features don't equate to that price jump. Now as for other features, I can be convinced.

 

[poison123]

Most of us weekend shooters will never shoot to the level to truly appreciate/optimize a $4k optic. I own a used Gen1 Kahles K624i, an older NXS, and a Meopta ZD and they are all the scope I could/would ever want or need….I do not think a $4k optic is going to make the target any easier to hit.

Who does? Team Gap almost exclusively shoots Bushnells.....if those guys can't appreciate/optimize a 4k optic.....then honestly who can?

I'm just saying I talked for a wee bit and played with the new Tangent scope and the Va guy who does the repairs at shotshow. It sounds like they have headed in the right direction....but in a market filled with great options starting in the 1500's...... Starting your "new" product at 4k+ which has to overcome a not so favorable history......not what I would call good business especially when you've got vendors like Orkan.

Hell I ran a PH for over a year on my DTA SRS back in the day....saw a shitload of comps including the first mammoth where I saw a one literally freeze internally due to the cold on a SF guys rifle. Mine never had a problem...rock solid. And it was a good buy when I got it for $2250 new from a dealer in 1/3/2010....so the same optics(though I admit there are upgrades etc) has doubled in price in a hair over 4 years. Where as the rest have had what 10-15% growth per year in cost.

I wish them best of luck.

 

[918v]

The TT has no tunneling at low mag, has more scope tube area to mount rings, larger easier to turn/feel turrets.

 

[poison123]

The TT has no tunneling at low mag, has more scope tube area to mount rings, larger easier to turn/feel turrets.

Honestly the tunneling is in my opinion a now issue.....how many people actually shoot the scope below 8 power?
Never seen a issue with on any scope I've used.
Matter of opinion on the turrets, never had a issue with Bender, Henny, NF, or Bushnell turrets.

 

[RyeDaddy]

If you value a 5-25x scope that does not tunnel and allows you to use the field of view afforded by 5x magnification then the TT is a winner over a S&B. The Beast is a winner there too. The tunneling on the Schmidt is ridiculous to me in an optic of that price.

Check out a Tangent Theta when they become available, you will see the advantages. c1steve said it best at the top of this page, it's not for everyone and most would be just as well served by something that costs less. But if you must have the best and can afford it, you have not done due dilligence without at least checking out the TT scopes. Whether the price is worth it is completely subjective.

 

[918v]

Honestly the tunneling is in my opinion a now issue.....how many people actually shoot the scope below 8 power?
Never seen a issue with on any scope I've used.
Matter of opinion on the turrets, never had a issue with Bender, Henny, NF, or Bushnell turrets.

Matter of opinion regarding the lack of need to shoot at low power. A police sniper might need to be able to shoot from across the street and might find 5x useful. In any case, the fact that TT doesn't tunnel makes it better. But what is better? I know! I'm not gonna say it.

 

[poison123]

LOL.....So I guess we judge scopes now based on how much they cost. TT must be Top Tier because it costs 4k........but wait that means the S&B and Henny smoke the shit out of it at 6-7k then! I mean both of those can dial down to the 3's and dial past 25x. The henny straight smokes the TT on glass(and I think we can safely state thats a fact)..... So they must be the crowned winners being completely better than the TT....Right?

Hell since a Police Sniper could be possibly using it, why would they not spend another 2kish for a better power config and clearer glass?









That is what you guys sound like trying to justify the price.

 

[Lowlight]

Don't forget the Trijicon TARs, it's over $4k.

It;s a 3-15x, so you can dial down if you need. USA made, designed to be every ounce as strong as the ACOG, and Schott Glass.

 

[918v]

LOL.....So I guess we judge scopes now based on how much they cost. TT must be Top Tier because it costs 4k........but wait that means the S&B and Henny smoke the shit out of it at 6-7k then! I mean both of those can dial down to the 3's and dial past 25x. The henny straight smokes the TT on glass(and I think we can safely state thats a fact)..... So they must be the crowned winners being completely better than the TT....Right?

Hell since a Police Sniper could be possibly using it, why would they not spend another 2kish for a better power config and clearer glass?









That is what you guys sound like trying to justify the price.

No.

You are blowing it all out of proportion. On the question of what makes the TT better than the SB: the lack of tunneling, mounting flexibility, and turrets make the TT better.

Not the price. The price alone does not make it better. That was not said.

 

[poison123]

No.

You are blowing it all out of proportion. On the question of what makes the TT better than the SB: the lack of tunneling, mounting flexibility, and turrets make the TT better.

Not the price. The price alone does not make it better. That was not said.

Dude I will give you the lack of tunneling. But the mounting and turrets is 120% OPINION! There are people who hate the fuck out of the turrets on the PH/TT. And please show me some threads where someone complained about mounting a SB5-25.

 

[The_FNG]

I never liked the wart illumination on the SB's, i guess that could be a pain to some when i comes to mounting and lefty's.

 

[918v]

Dude I will give you the lack of tunneling. But the mounting and turrets is 120% OPINION! There are people who hate the fuck out of the turrets on the PH/TT. And please show me some threads where someone complained about mounting a SB5-25.

The TT has revised turrets and everyone reports they are awesome. And you can have them with or without MTC. And my opinion rocks.

 

[shotdown]

Yes. If it has Premier, or Tangent Theta on the side, they will warranty it forever. Doesn't matter where or when you bought it.

I think this is awesome and would like to say Thanks for taking care of us "Premier" owners. However, yes the price for these new scopes is scary.

 

[fnfan]

Honestly the glass in the Hensoldt uber scope was not better than the Tangent Theta....$7000 dollars, two year warranty, limited reticle options and must be shipped back to Germany for service....but if you really want one buy it. It's your money spend it however you want....the dollar is worthless and inflation is rampant....

 

[knockemdown]

You aren't a dunce, you are an obvious intelligent guy, but your tactics pitching this optic are giving me an awfully bad taste in my mouth. I've never seen another scope maker or dealer attempting to pimp their wares as you have on the hide. You are probably a really good guy, but that isn't translating with your attitude through this thread.

Being successful at owning or operating a business doesn't make you a successful salesman or PR guy.

I'm sure everyone is tired of this nobody chiming in, so I'll attempt to slide back into the shadows. Cheers

Agree with the above, and appreciate you chiming in. Been thinking the same thing...

Orkan, you might wanna tone it down a bit. As a future TT owner, at this point, I'd be looking elsewhere to purchase one, rather than from you, simply based on how you are conducting yourself in this thread.
I can understand the desire to defend a new product from internet critique. And I sometimes resort to throwing a bit of 'attitude' online, myself. However, I do not appreciate that angle from a vendor I'd want to spend my hard earned money with. From a concerned potential customer, ya might wanna tone it down a notch and let the product speak more for itself. At the very least, make your retorts less confrontational, as it's unbecoming...

Being a Premier slut already, I'm pretty much sold on what I see from TT and will be trying at least one TT scope in the future. However, as Victory noted, your posts are kinda putting a bad taste in my mouth, too. Would hate to see a potentially stellar product start outta the gate with a black eye, over less than stellar sales tactics...

No offense

 

[Fitz]

Agree with the above, and appreciate you chiming in. Been thinking the same thing...

Orkan, you might wanna tone it down a bit. As a future TT owner, at this point, I'd be looking elsewhere to purchase one, rather than from you, simply based on how you are conducting yourself in this thread.
I can understand the desire to defend a new product from internet critique. And I sometimes resort to throwing a bit of 'attitude' online, myself. However, I do not appreciate that angle from a vendor I'd want to spend my hard earned money with. From a concerned potential customer, ya might wanna tone it down a notch and let the product speak more for itself. At the very least, make your retorts less confrontational, as it's unbecoming...

Being a Premier slut already, I'm pretty much sold on what I see from TT and will be truying at least one TT scope in the future. However, as Victory noted, your posts are kinda putting a bad taste in my mouth, too. Would hate to see a potentially stellar product start outta the gate with a black eye, over less than stellar sales tactics...

No offense

Very well said! I feel the same way and I have owned 3 PH scopes.

 

[orkan]

Noted gentlemen. Thanks for keeping me in check. The rampant complaining about price, and downright false comments I've witnessed in this thread put me in one hell of a foul mood. You have to understand that just "selling" stuff isn't my primary goal. Anyone can do that. I have an extreme passion for this sport, and have a very hard time keeping quiet when BS is being thrown around. Most of our customers like the fact that I'm not middle of the road, and will tell them straight. Being in a position to know the truth, if I don't speak up... what does that make me? Also, please remember that context and tone, is very difficult to convey via text when dealing with emotional topics such as price.

Still, I shouldn't have let it soil the tempo of the thread or my excitement about these scopes. Sorry about that fellas, and I'll do better.

Soon, we'll have one in our hands for a full proper review.

 

[shotdown]

I'd be interested in knowing military pricing for this scope:

TT525P Gen2XR reticle, mil/mil/ffp - $4,250 (No MTC)

 

[orkan]

I'd be interested in knowing military pricing for this scope:

TT525P Gen2XR reticle, mil/mil/ffp - $4,250 (No MTC)

I have a call in to TT to clarify military pricing structure, and exactly what discounts will be offered. As soon as I hear back, I'll let you know.

 

[orkan]

Update:

I've had the parts sources confirmed for these scopes. The glass is sourced in Germany, and all other parts are sourced in Germany and North America. (Presumably USA and Canada) That should end any remaining speculation.

 

[Mute]

Bottom line on pricing is that it will be driven by demand. TT is pricing themselves above everyone else with an equivalent product including those who've been in this specific market longer, with an established record of excellence. They're going to have to make their case. I can see the non-tunneling and better turret feel (subjective) being a selling point and a point in the plus column. However, being new to the this market segment, having very limited choices in reticles, being priced higher than everyone else (including some very excellent products), as well as this in your face push to be considered "the best" are points in the negative column. They're going to have their work cut out for them convincing buyers that the price premium is worth it.

I'm a skeptic and cynic by nature, so I'll wait and see and hopefully get a chance to try one of these in the wild before I jump on the bandwagon. So far, I'm not convinced that the cost premium over the likes of S&B, Kahles and Steiner is warranted. But that's just my opinion.

 

[shankster..]

 

[cpt.creedmoor]

Ommfg.....bahahahahahahaha

 

[SQUATCH]

LMFAO. Now this what this thread needs.

 

[Fitz]

That is f'ng funny as shit. You just made my morning!

 

[scatsob]

Dear lord, why do people care so much about what someone does in the free market? And there will be buyers for these scopes. Look at KAC. They price their stuff in the stratosphere and they still have no problem selling it. I hope they do well, I like my premier and look forward to picking up one of these on the secondary market at some point in the future.

 

[thefitter]

I'm having Smith Enterprises déjà vu.

 

[427Cobra]

I don't get the pricing thing, an entry in to this market at those points is going to be a deal breaker for many, including me, I was one of those who got a 5-25 PR G2XR at a smoking price from a dealer who got screwed over it, I seriously doubt the TT line is any better or worse than the PR line of scopes, I would like to thank you for standing up and warranty the PR scopes, that makes us owners of those scopes happy but we are skeptical that TT will be around next year based on PR history.

 

[W54/XM-388]

I have a call in to TT to clarify military pricing structure, and exactly what discounts will be offered. As soon as I hear back, I'll let you know.

Hopefully they have more sense than Premier did with their whole BS about "If we force it to be sold at an inflated price and harshly punish any dealers that give someone a discount, it will make people think our scopes are so much more top tier".... that worked out so not well for them. I was interested in them till that... but that stunt made me swear them off forever (especially since they screwed over one of their most enthusiastic dealers that I was going to get a scope from) and I went ahead and bought more S&B scopes when good deals and discounts were to be had.

If you happen to talk to anyone there that cares, suggest to them that people like getting a deal, if one of their dealers happens to offer a discount on the scopes... it means more sales for the factory.

While the MSRP on these scopes is in my opinion way to high, if I come across a really good deal on one, I'd be very interested in looking at getting it.

 

[Trevor300wsm]

If we'd let this thread die.........

 

[The_FNG]

If we'd let this thread die.........

Pretty much.

I keep coming back to this thread for more info, all i get is the broken record of people bitching about the price.

 

[Redmanss]

The TT scopes will speak for themselves as to whether they're worth the price or not once they hit the streets, and thus far all I've seen is a bunch of people bickering about a scope that has yet to be tested in the public eye. While I'll likely not be dropping the money on one, being more budget conscious lately, I'll still be watching them closely to see if they truly do offer me something more than S&B or NF that will make the additional cost worth it. Maybe playing switch barrel games will, who knows. Again, time will tell, but I'm keeping an open mind.

Didn't I just see last week a post from LL that S&B is raising the price of the 5-25x to $3900? Those things are performing better than any 401K out there...

 

[shankster..]

If we'd let this thread die.........

 

[bas402]

Maybe playing switch barrel games will, who knows.

I think this is becoming the future as DT has been doing it for years as well as AI and with the new AI's making it easier it's cheaper in the long run, several calibers with one scope. I am in the process now of building a SB custom, and between the two I will have 6 calibers but only have 2 scopes, and they are both Premiers/Optronika and have proven themselves to be the ticket with the tool less zero feature when caliber changes are made.

 

[RobertB]

Where you been shank? Grace us with your presence more often. But keep Maser away!!!

 

[Mute]

Uh oh! Youtube Hitler video in the works?

 

[fx77]

the Shankster nailed it !

 

[Maser]

Where you been shank? Grace us with your presence more often. But keep Maser away!!!

Hush it now!