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Fieldcraft Target Detection help

short_bus_sniper

short_bus_sniper

Private
Full Member
Minuteman
Aug 25, 2009
31
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48
fayetteville, NC
#1
I am a new member here, getting ready to go to Army Sniper school in September. The biggest issue I am having during train up has been target detection. Does anyone have any hints or training techniques that can help? Apart from the shine, shape, irregular feature, and contrasting background. Any suggestions would help, thanks!
 
#2
Re: Target Detection help

you get interested at spotting something, when you start to spot something.. before I ever was interested in arrowheads, I never found one. When i found my first, i found at least one a week. before I was interested in shooting PDs, i never saw any. now I find them everywhere. before I was interested in tracking, i never saw a track. now i cant go anywhere w/o seeing tracks.
I cant say I have any real pointers for you, but many times in my life i have opened up new worlds to myself w/ interest and a little basic knowledge. you already have the basic knowledge w/ shape, shine, silhouette, etc. just practice, and w/o even knowing it your brain will be able to pick up on things.
 
#3
Re: Target Detection help

Well, you have to have some skills already to be heading to that school. Target acquisition is one of my weakest skills, so I shouldn't be commenting but all I can suggest is when using a variable power scope - crank that scope way down to scan! Remember to change your parallax accordingly. If you have to lift your head off your scope, you need to be able to get back into that same cheek weld & re-acquire that nature POA through your scope quickly. You can practice scanning and re-acquiring POA quickly without ever firing a bullet thousands of times, or better yet followed by a controlled dry fire. "Find it with your eyes, kill it with your scope!" or something like that...
 
#4
Re: Target Detection help

My best advise is to be slow and SYSTEMATIC with your search. The area you will search will have defined boundries. You must mentally divide the entire search area into grids. Start the slow, systematic search first with your eyes. Look at every inch in your sector. A good trick is to have an item placed inches infront of your face (brass, cleaning rod, etc.), or on a tree branch just over your head. Again, be sure to scan everything. Once you scan with your eyes, move on to your binos. Again, slow, systematic grid search. Once you spot something that looks out of the ordinary, THEN use your spotting scope to verify what it is. You should also have an opportunity to switch locations, which you should use to cover your dead space (behind trees, etc.).

The biggest problem I've seen is that people simply jump on their binos or spotting scope and sporatically scan the area without being systematic about it. This causes them to miss items, and can be avoided by using the methods I mentioned above. Once you've forced yourself to conduct the systematic grid search I've described, that cleaning rod in the grass will jump out at you. Good luck
 
#5
Re: Target Detection help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CPEC0402</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My best advise is to be slow and SYSTEMATIC with your search. The area you will search will have defined boundries. You must mentally divide the entire search area into grids. Start the slow, systematic search first with your eyes. Look at every inch in your sector. A good trick is to have an item placed inches infront of your face (brass, cleaning rod, etc.), or on a tree branch just over your head. Again, be sure to scan everything. Once you scan with your eyes, move on to your binos. Again, slow, systematic grid search. Once you spot something that looks out of the ordinary, THEN use your spotting scope to verify what it is. You should also have an opportunity to switch locations, which you should use to cover your dead space (behind trees, etc.).

The biggest problem I've seen is that people simply jump on their binos or spotting scope and sporatically scan the area without being systematic about it. This causes them to miss items, and can be avoided by using the methods I mentioned above. Once you've forced yourself to conduct the systematic grid search I've described, that cleaning rod in the grass will jump out at you. Good luck </div></div>

Good reply!
There are also a few little tricks you learn that help in the school setting. Colors! 99% of the items you will be looking for at school will be military colors like od green, tan, various camo. patterns and brass. A quick scan will locate a few of those.You also do a scan for vertical lines and circles. There are almost no vertical lines in nature and no cicles either. Also look in the locations that don't look like good hiding spots. When I was an instructor I always put a few items out in plain view where you wouldn't think anything would be. The students always got pissed when I walked right out in front of them and pointed it out. Hope it helps. Good luck.
 
#6
Re: Target Detection help

I went Woodchuck Hunting one day for the first time, and I never looked at a field the same way ever after.

Consider the prospect that somewhere out there, there's an individual who's preparing to take your life with extreme prejudice, consummate stealth, and highly adequate capability.

You'll see more...
 
#7
Re: Target Detection help

like it was mentioned above divide your scanning area into sectors, i do mine in about a 70 degree cone with me being the point, scan near to far and left to right or right to left, and you will pick up things easier
 
#8
Re: Target Detection help

Thanks for all your suggestions! I am going in September so I still have some time to practice. It seems that I am having to retrain how I look at items. And I have noticed what you said was correct, you get your hands on a Leupold X40 spotting scope and you think you can see everything. It doesn't work that way!!

Of course the worst part is as you said,when the instructor walks out to it and you have the thought going through your head " how did I miss that!?"
 
#9
Re: Target Detection help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: CPEC0402</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My best advise is to be slow and SYSTEMATIC with your search. The area you will search will have defined boundries. You must mentally divide the entire search area into grids. Start the slow, systematic search first with your eyes. Look at every inch in your sector. A good trick is to have an item placed inches infront of your face (brass, cleaning rod, etc.), or on a tree branch just over your head. Again, be sure to scan everything. Once you scan with your eyes, move on to your binos. Again, slow, systematic grid search. Once you spot something that looks out of the ordinary, THEN use your spotting scope to verify what it is. You should also have an opportunity to switch locations, which you should use to cover your dead space (behind trees, etc.).

The biggest problem I've seen is that people simply jump on their binos or spotting scope and sporatically scan the area without being systematic about it. This causes them to miss items, and can be avoided by using the methods I mentioned above. Once you've forced yourself to conduct the systematic grid search I've described, that cleaning rod in the grass will jump out at you. Good luck </div></div>

I like this reply too. I was having better luck spotting PD's this w/e by just using my naked eye. I'd see something interesting, and THEN move to the scope on low power to see what it was. Then maybe max power if i still couldnt tell. I learned the value of a variable power scope. Sometimes it was an anomolous tuft of grass, sometimes it was a rock, but sometimes it was a PD.
 
#10
Re: Target Detection help

As has been said, a sector the AO into a grid and scan each grid in a systematic order. Being meticulous is the name of the game.

Look at the way the grass is blowing in the wind. Anything moving when the grass isnt? Look at the colors. Anything out of place? A lump of green in dead grass or brush? Has a lump moved from one sector to another when you go back and start your scan over? Obvious ones. The oil on human skin shines. Even a painted face tends to shine in sunlight.

Dont forget your other senses. Do you smell anything? Cigarette smoke carries downwind off a person more that you realize, even if they dont have one fired up. Body odor. Is gear clanking when someone is moving? Listen for things that dont sound right.

Hear anything? Did the birds go silent? Did they just flush out of an area for no reason? Are squirrels going nuts? (no pun intended) An animal that flushes, see where it looks when it stops to look back.

Getting in too big of a hurry is what you want to avoid. Patience.
 
#11
Re: Target Detection help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: short_bus_sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am a new member here, getting ready to go to Army Sniper school in September. The biggest issue I am having during train up has been target detection. Does anyone have any hints or training techniques that can help? Apart from the shine, shape, irregular feature, and contrasting background. Any suggestions would help, thanks! </div></div>

Welcome to the hide!
I wish I had some other info for you but like others I would agree with the sector scanning. Even though I don't have any tactical training I do hunt a lot and while hunting I'll find myself scanning in sectors like a giant grid with my eyes than optics if I see something interesting. Anyway good luck and thanks for you're service!
 
#12
Re: Target Detection help

It's basically all been said by now. Start close with your naked eye and scan from near to far and from bottom to top, going out in ever increasing left to right arcs. You should be able to pick up a few items that way. Next scan with your scope on low power and repeat. Then set it to high power and repeat again. I am assuming you have the 20-40x variable power Leupold spotting scope which works really well for this purpose.

Also, like was mentioned earlier make sure you don't burn up all your time in one spot. Some of the items will undoubtedly be placed to be barely visible from some place on the line but not necessarily visible from all places on the line. I preferred to start on one extreme side and then rotate to the other extreme halfway through the time limit.

In the end, some people are just naturally more observant than others but you can tip the scales in your favor. Good luck to you.
 
#13
Re: Target Detection help

Practice! I like Ewoaf's post. I learned the same way, arrowheads and points led to squirrels and groundhogs and then tracking. I find if I skip a bit I lose a lot of it. Then, I need to recharge when I start back up. Over the years, the recharge takes shorter and shorter periods. Laser surgery helped too. LOL. I have a friend that can smell a pig from a mile away.
 
#14
Re: Target Detection help

I went to SOTIC in 2000. Your first spotting/field sketch exercise you will completely blow... just accept this now. After the instructors show you where everything is on the first one you'll see where and how to look... And you'll still miss stuff! No biggie just do your best.
 
#15
Re: Target Detection help

lf l might be permitted to add one small piece of advice, don't go looking for a whole object.... Look for part of something, or something that looks odd or out of place to it's suroundings.
When we teach students to stalk Roe deer this is what we tell them, don't look for a deer... look for a bit of one and you'll find that the rest is attached to it somewhere.

Good luck with your course, and good "hunting".
 
#16
Re: Target Detection help

Any question on Target Acquistion like this posed by a person who is 4 days registered on this site should be greeted with " Ask your instructor"....

... Perhaps he could provide his name and rank to one of the Army Operations guys here who could check him out. Following verification of name and rank, then intel could be passed. reminds me of the guy some months back who asked for tips on building an Urban Hide.......... Maybe its just me being a paranoid fuck but im always choosy whom I share sensitive intel like this with....

No offense amigo, Im sure your a nice guy byt your question does make me suspicious as to why you dont know these basic details of fieldcraft and marksmanship yourself.. Assuming your in the forces at elast 2 years, this should be common knowledge to you...
 
#17
Re: Target Detection help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddieo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any question on Target Acquistion like this posed by a person who is 4 days registered on this site should be greeted with " Ask your instructor"....

... Perhaps he could provide his name and rank to one of the Army Operations guys here who could check him out. Following verification of name and rank, then intel could be passed. reminds me of the guy some months back who asked for tips on building an Urban Hide.......... Maybe its just me being a paranoid fuck but im always choosy whom I share sensitive intel like this with....

No offense amigo, Im sure your a nice guy byt your question does make me suspicious as to why you dont know these basic details of fieldcraft and marksmanship yourself.. Assuming your in the forces at elast 2 years, this should be common knowledge to you...

</div></div>

Wha....?
confused.gif
I didn't know how to look for a cleaning rod in a bush was classified?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe its just me being a paranoid fuck</div></div> ^This.
 
#18
Re: Target Detection help

Hahaha! I would have to agree with 18E on this one. Nothing classified about attention to detail and learning how to scan for objects.
 
#19
Re: Target Detection help

No your right, Its not.......

However while Im sure he is possibly a stand up guy would you as a law enforcement officer divulge LE SOP's to anyone you come across on an internet forum. I did 15 years in the military, (Medically RETIRED) and I was taught marksmanship and target acquisition techniques witihin the first 1/2 years of me being in. Where I come from, people who are sent to specialist Spec Op training schools such as sniper school, or SF traning schools must demonstrate a level of proficiency in such techniques to be recommended by a superior officer. Correct me if im wrong but even US swat team members must be recommended for training by a superior based upon marksmanship skill, proficiency, leadership training, Psy evaluations etc.

As Im already quite familar wth Us Military training techniques , wouldnt such skills already be a pre-requisite for selection and acceptance to sniper school in the first place and would not the intended pupil of the training already have a demonstratable ability in such techniques in the first place to qaulify for selection.

So its fairly easy to draw an assumption that the person asking the question is either ;

1) Not in the military in the first place. perhaps he is a 15 years old kid with an interest in shooting which is fine as it goes.

2) One of the many whacko's who register on such shooting related web site to attempt to obtain skills, techniques to go out and perhaps shoot a Police Officer in Gilbert AZ.....

There are many holes in this persons stoiry which may be quite innocent but on the other hand as with the example of the person who recently started a thread about wanting tips to build an urban hide.. this draws warning radar up on me at least.

Maybe its just me but I wouldnt feel quite right about handing out information to anyone and then finding out that they then went on to commit a serious crime based on the intel I gave them. Would you















 
#22
Re: Target Detection help

Perhaps I'm wrong, but I saw it as an innocent question. In addition, he already mentioned the target indicators to look for in the question (shine, color, shape, contrast w background, etc.) Besides, I learned more about TD from hunting squirrels as a 12 yr old than from any formal training. I think most hunters here would agree as well. I do understand your concerns in regard to an urban hides thread, but TD is a different story. If he were to try and take out a LEO he wouldn't need enhanced TD skills. Just my opinion...
 
#23
Re: Target Detection help

Yea, I used that one too once.
In my time, nothing was discussed outside.
Learned real quick after taking a picture of an RSOV.
I understand your point, however also thought it was pretty inocent.

Matter of fact I still owe Lindy a beer.
 
#24
Re: Target Detection help

A lot of valuable information posted above.

I would like to suggest speding all the time you can in the woods. You have to acclimate yourself to your surroundings. Watch where you walk. Now the sounds of what you're stepping on. Someone else may be stepping on the same thing.

Use your eyes, ears and even your nose a lot. Right after I quit smoking in 1985, I noticed I could smell a lot more than I previously could.

In addition to taking along a bottle of water you might want to take some eye drops and some Tylenol. Not always but sometimes I get headaches from visual scanning. I'm not as young as I used to be.

Good luck in your school. I hope you pass with high marks.
 
#25
Re: Target Detection help

Victor; If you're getting headaches from visual scanning, it's likely eyestrain. I tell my Optometerist that I do a lot of LR shooting and observation, and the glasses I get help a lot with eyestrain. Might be time for a new prescription.
 
#27
Re: Target Detection help

Thanks for all the input, The answer to your question as to why I was asking about TD is as follows. I am stationed in the same company that teaches sniper school here at fort benning. C Co. 2/29 Inf. I have been working over at the Basic rifle Marksmanship side and in the Marksmanship Proponency Office Teaching how to properly use the toys we are getting now (i.e. reflex sights, lasers) for the army. I know the shooting piece decently, but practical experience as a sniper was where I was lacking. I've went through the course in July, and TD kicked my butt. It was my first real experience with TD, and I learned alot, it just wasn't coming quick enough to pass. And to be honest, it was the first time I had any experience with the sniper community, apart from being being a gopher at the 7th Intl. Sniper competition held here at Benning. (hold movers, clean targets, etc.) Being at that competition and seeing what the teams were capable of doing made me want to go to the school. The reason I have my username is because I didn't pass TD. I realize we are getting off subject, just wanted to establish my creds.

Once again, thank you for all the input. 18 echo was right, after the first practical exercise i did feel like an idiot. I mean, Come on! an AK-47 sitting in the woods should be easy to see, right!? Or for that matter, an AT-4! Nope! Ah well, At least they weren't making us look for pin-on rank in the woods!!

P.S. The other reason I have little knowledge of snipers is I have been mechanized most of my career. And when I say that I mean the Bradley Fighting Vehicle Unfortunately. I can tell you what it takes to shoot 10 T's with the brad. But Target detection is not something they cover when you are shooting at NATO panel targets. Mechanized side of the house is still set up for fighting the russian horde through the fulda gap to a certain extent. And Mech companies training budget for all the hooah schools sits in the motor pool breaking down every 5 minutes.

The instructor at the school house did a great job giving us pointers. Hell, the man can spot turkeys moving through the edge of a woodline at 900 yards!! but I just was looking for other opinions, trying to get as much dope as I could this time.
 
#28
Re: Target Detection help

"I grew up in the Catskills hunting woodchucks as well. I learned to take a hide and scan the visable area. Disect it into quadrants and study them WHILE ALWAYS LOOKING FOR MOTION. Then you basically memorize the terrain and await the changes... Ah there it is... BANG."

I definitely agree, motion helps!! But when you are looking for stationary inanimate objects, that ups the ante a little!
 
#29
Re: Target Detection help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Victor; If you're getting headaches from visual scanning, it's likely eyestrain. I tell my Optometerist that I do a lot of LR shooting and observation, and the glasses I get help a lot with eyestrain. Might be time for a new prescription. </div></div>

+1 on that. You might have astigmatism, but nothing Lasik/glasses can't fix. Also, keep some eye drops that are just an ocular lube...like "Refresh." Avoid Visine, as they will only make your eyes worse.

And remember to blink...
 
#30
Re: Target Detection help

short bus, if you have any native american's in your outfit try and get with them. you can learn a lot from them just by listening to them. if they were raised on a rez they will have a wealth of knowledge thy can pass on to you. good luck. crow hop
 
#31
Re: Target Detection help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eddieo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...wouldnt such skills already be a pre-requisite for selection and acceptance to sniper school in the first place and would not the intended pupil of the training already have a demonstratable ability in such techniques in the first place to qaulify for selection...
</div></div>

Unfortunatley, much less often than you would think.

A lot of units get a slot and ask if anyone wants to go, who ever raises there hand the fast gets it. A lot of units are realizing that they need to employ more snipers and send as many people as they can. A lot of people want to go through the school for their resume and don't care if they do well, only if they pass.

Some Spec Ops groups send everybody through the school (or their specialized version thereof).

And some guys just get lucky and get a spot.
 
#32
Re: Target Detection help

Oh, and SBS, good luck. Have fun with it.

The best advise I can give is, be systematic, make sure you cover all the area.

Don't look for a certain object! you will become fixated on that and your brain will trick you into missing anything that is not that specific shape.

Try instead to keep a blank slate and let objects that are not natural to jump out at you. Look for aborations in the natual flow as opposed to objects.
 
#34
Re: Target Detection help

Target detection is not is not one of the harder events in sniper school. I went through in 2001. I don't remember anybody failing because of target detection. Range estimation caused most of the failures. After that it was stalking, and after that it was "Lack of Motivation." That being said and being completely honest, target detection was less about honing your skills and more about learning where the instructors liked to hide stuff. Just a few examples: map protractor in the corner of a window, GI Joe gun in the bark of a pine tree, antenna standing beside the trunk of a small tree, ranger tab or BDU hat in a tree (back when uniforms were actually camoflage and not that retarded gray/blue crap that they have now and that doesn't blend in with shit), etc. They would also always put something really close to you, and everybody would always miss it. Like something hanging in a tree almost directly over you, but still in front of you, so it fell within the area that was in play.
 
#35
Re: Target Detection help

No Sniper here but for some reason I see game before others. A gift maybe? Hunting since 4? Anyhow an elk guide taught me the best system ever. Everything your eye catches is a target per the parameters of your search, If the obvious is not target sought,break down the least likely in your brain first untill you decide its not. For me it seems that when I scan there is allways that little voice that says thats not a target, now when I hear this its my trigger to not pass but to check closer. Damn the human brain for its reverse pshych. Its human nature to see the obvious first so by starting with the not so obvious you up your chances and effeciency as hider and animal are doing the same, trying to stay alive,they won't be obvious, not a law.
 
#36
Re: Target Detection help

colder mornings / evenings, look for the breath steam. if it's windy look for the blob that's not swaying with the rest of the foliage. look for trails left behind (no dew where there should be, disturbed / packed down foliage, etc.) look for soles of boots as many seem forget they have em on and don't think of "gillied moccasins"

don't look for the whole of the object, but a part of it.
ever notice when your hunting deer or whatever, if you look for the body, you sometimes miss it, especially in shadowed cover. however if you try to pick out and look for and eye, nose, ear, tail outline etc., you'll find more game that wants to stay concealed. many times you don't see the head turned in your direction but all of a sudden notice two eyes looking at you.

in the short time you have before school, other than doing some predator hunting / spotting, the only training tip i can give you is to get a buddy to place a maniquinn camoed up without you looking where he put it, or have your buddy layout there and try to find it / him in the glass. relocate, repeat.

if you are paired against someone that's good, your shit outta luck.
 
#39
Re: Target Detection help

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: short_bus_sniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am a new member here, getting ready to go to Army Sniper school in September. The biggest issue I am having during train up has been target detection. Does anyone have any hints or training techniques that can help? Apart from the shine, shape, irregular feature, and contrasting background. Any suggestions would help, thanks! </div></div>

Top Predator makes an excellent point on conventional targets. They tend to wear boots that will contrast with uniforms and/or their surroundings. Even with the change to ACUs, do you see the direct color contrast with the tan boots to the rest of the uniform? The drawback to that technique is that terrain has to be specific for those boots to become visible or they'll simply be overlooked, especially in foliage. But, as he's pointed out, there are things like looking for disturbed items along a potential track...my favorite being disturbed dew (especially important in any foliage or grass), broken foliage (you'd be surprised how easy it is to see that stuff once you take notice). Even a sniper finds some difficulty in masking the individual signature of broken foliage...it's very tough to prevent and all it takes is one or two broken pieces that contrast with the rest of the patterns to ID a potential track. Faster movement means more disturbance of the surrounding area, ultimately more signs of a potential track.

Remember, target detection of the nature you described ONLY works on a still target (possibly ultra slow target like another sniper); for that you've got the basics covered. Things are considerably different with a moving target (obviously because of visible movement) and are very tough with an extremely slow moving target like a stalking sniper as would be the case in sniper-counter sniper exercises.

Trust your instincts, they will develop through that school. Buddy up with others and practice target detection skills. Someone might have figured out something that might work for you as well...2 sets of eyes are always better than 1. When in doubt, ask questions of your instructors...you're there to learn and develop your skill.

Once you discover the technique that works for you, you'll consider yourself "stupid" for not taking notice before. It's a much different world that working with a M-16 platform and the sweeping techniques they taught us in BASIC. Everything must slow down in the world of the sniper starting with self.
 
#40
Re: Target Detection help

Hi Guys,

It would seem to me that the concern about divulging classified information is basically unfounded. As Top Predator said,"
If you are paired against somebody good, you are shit out of luck." Someone out there who is not professionally trained probably would not stand a chance against someone who is.
 
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