Test Results: Accuracy/Precision of Annealed, Non-Annealed, COAL to Magazine Length and ti

[Subwrx300]

Let me preface this topic: I've read numerous posts, watched countless videos and many days tinkering with loads by charge and COAL. However, with regard to annealing, I've not yet encountered anything on the web that provides quantitative analysis of before and after results annealing with respect to accuracy and precision of groups. I'm sure it's available SOMEWHERE but haven't stumbled across yet...

I inadvertently created the opportunity to test the consistency and accuracy of annealed brass vs. non-annealed and effects COAL (Cartridge OverAll Length, for those that aren't familiar), simultaneously under "ideal" conditions. I decided to begin annealing brass for first time as I recently purchased several hundred Lapua cases but they were on there 5th fire for the season and began to see groups open up without explanation. After annealing nearly 400 cases, I realized that I had 20 NON-annealed 5th fire cartridges remaining from the last batch. Perfect opportunity to test both variables (COAL and Annealed once fired brass) against a control group of at handloads from the prior batch.

Below follows my procedure:
- CONTROL GROUP: (10) rounds Sierra 2156c Palma 155gr with 45.2gr IMR4064 seated .020 from lands. This is the result of many rounds of testing various lengths and charges; it normally produces .6 to 1.2 MOA groups under good conditions (avg about .8 MOA over last 150 rounds). Brass was on 5th fire and was trimmed to 2.005" on 4th fire. Ammo had been loaded for approximately 3 weeks before today's test. The last rounds fired at 100yds averaged .75" only two weeks prior. This brass has only been neck sized on Lee Classic Single Stage since new. FWIW, I've NEVER fired consistent sub-half MOA groups with this load or rifle under any conditions; certainly close and had a few 1/2 minute groups on several occasions but average over life of rifle has been .85" with this load.

- VARIABLE #1 - COAL REDUCED TO MAG LENGTH 2.815" (10) rounds of above (5th fire Lapua, 2156c, 45.2gr IMR 4064) but with bullets reseated to new COAL.
- VARIABLE #2 - ANNEALED CASES - all ammo loaded to same spec with same process as CONTROL group but with only variable being newly annealed cases. These cases would now be smelled for first time since purchase and losing them 5 times.
-VARIABLE #3 - BULLET to CASE "WELDING" - The exact term for this phenomena is escaping me, but I've read on a few occasions that reloading bullets and letting them sit is a bad practice as the copper jacket and case mouth can essentially bond more tightly over time, increasing variations in velocity due to inconsistent neck tension. This test does not truly have a control group as I didn't have newly seated, non-annealed CONTROL cases available. So the benchmark for this test is simply prior data over the last 150 rounds (spread over past 2-3 reload cycles and accumulated data from 600+ rounds with this load). Basically, I'm using the CONTROL Group as a test variable by comparing it to prior known data averages across the life of the rifle with this specific load which developed and shot over 600 rounds with this load since rifle was new.

So here are the results of the test. First picture is of the test target:

This is picture of a final group shot after 15-20min cool down for vertical tracking test; 3-shot group.

SUMMARY of Test:

-VARIABLE #1 - COAL REDUCED TO MAG LENGTH 2.815" No surprises here... Just confirmation that the COAL (specifically bullet jump) affects accuracy by a considerable margin. I can post prior data groups for comparison if Anyone is interested but frankly, I think most hand loaders find out quickly that most barrels shoot well loaded closer to the lands.
CONCLUSION: To use your magazine length ammo and shoot accurately, either find a bullet with long bearing surface (I've used 155 Scenars with great success) and short tip OR make sure your next barrel will be reamed to allow mag length bullets to seat closer to lands.

-VARIABLE #2 - ANNEALED CASES. This is the real shocker and frankly I had to keep shooting groups to confirm what I was seeing. I hypothesized that annealing would simply allow easier sizing and prolong case life. I did not expect any differences in accuracy as the idea of uniform neck tension seems easy to accomplish with neck sizing operations. The actual accuracy/precision improvements are (in my case) MASSIVE: over 60% improvement over my long established average of .8" with this rifle and load (groups .179", .344, .383", and .494" with avg .350" vs .8" for prior data).
CONCLUSION: Anneal more often and if you don't, you may consider running test this with your 3rd,4th or 5th cycle brass to see if it restores or even added any accuracy to your load. Took a bit of time to anneal (maybe 2hours for nearly 400 cases including all extra setup and cooling etc.) perhaps the single biggest improvement in my groups other than developing the load in the first place.

-VARIABLE #3 - BULLET to CASE "WELDING" - this concept didn't seem to ring with me however, having the group sizes from the first two days after pressing bullets (.6-.85") vs the groups above (1"-1.5") there certainly seems to be some truth to this phenomenon. This may be in part due to the increasing hardness of the neck but I can't truly draw direct conclusion without a better control group to compare (I.e. Newly loaded 5th fire non-annealed brass with same charge and COAL).

Here a few pictures the original control batch from two weeks prior; 100 rounds were loaded, with 50 at the 45.2 charge and and I believe I pushed around (9) 5-shot groups of different weights through the bore. I was re-testing various weight charges under the 2156c and simply confirm for fit for rifle:

CONCLUSION: Load and shoot your rounds as close together as possible. If not possible, perhaps seat bullets slightly long and reseat to final depth with a day or two prior to firing.

If you can see anything that I missed or draw different conclusions than I did, please reply. I am curious if anyone else has had similar experience before/after annealing multiple-fire cycles.

Thanks and looking forward to your comments/replies!

Edited: Thanks to SWThomas for feedback; changed wording for clarity and added some prior data and photos.

 

[Subwrx300]

For reference, the rifle used for this test was a Weatherby Vanguard 308 with "Heavy" Varmint Contour #3, Manners T4-A, Timmey Trigger and Nightforce ATACR. I'm hoping to revisit this test in a few weeks by comparing some 10th 11th without annealing to 3-4 fires between annealing and newly annealed neck sized brass. May take a few weeks though before I can work harden some of my newer brass.

 

[rduckwor]

Good work and documentation.

Applying the scientific method to load development/load management really works.

I too, am a data hound and rarely shoot outside of matches that I do not collect data. Otherwise, I feel that I'm not gaining all I can for the time and expense of shooting.

Thanks,

 

[SWThomas]

Very cool test! I enjoyed reading that and it really enforces the importance of annealing.

I was a little confused though when you kept referring to the test as "annealed once fired cases" when you say you were using cases that have been fired 5 times.

 

[Subwrx300]

Good work and documentation.

Applying the scientific method to load development/load management really works.

I too, am a data hound and rarely shoot outside of matches that I do not collect data. Otherwise, I feel that I'm not gaining all I can for the time and expense of shooting.

Thanks,

Good points.... I'll edit and make easier to read... It was a bit late while putting together that post . I think it goes without saying that we brass only after firing, so I'll remove.

 

[Mad_Charlie]

It was the smelling and losing it that got me all squirreled up...

 

[Subwrx300]

Test Results: Accuracy/Precision of Annealed, Non-Annealed, COAL to Magazine ...

Good work and documentation.

Applying the scientific method to load development/load management really works.

I too, am a data hound and rarely shoot outside of matches that I do not collect data. Otherwise, I feel that I'm not gaining all I can for the time and expense of shooting.

Thanks,

Thanks Rduckwor! I completely agree with the idea that it without data (control variable, test variable like scenarios) this long range game feels like your chasing your tail at times! This was by far the "best case scenario" for this type of test and while I'm hoping the results are repeatable, I may have had the stars align with good form/technique and conditions to create great groups.

I plan to set aside extra brass for another test to confirm this test (specifically cycle time count between Annealing Brass as related to accuracy as test variable) as follows:

Method: All brass will be neck sized only with Lee Collet Die and trimmed/chamfered/deburred to 2.006 before each reload. Load will be same throughout the test (Sierra 2156c, seated .020" from lands, 45.2gr IMR 4064 with BR-2 primers)

Groups of 4 will be shot and compared at the following intervals:
-new brass (Lapua), NS/T2.006/C/D)
-Annealed after 1st fire, with NS/T2.006/C/D
-Annealed after every fire with NS/T2.006/C/D (this group of brass will be shot from start to finish of experiment, 20 groups).
-Never annealed, 3rd fire brass NS/T2.006/C/D
-Annealed 3rd fire brass, NS/T2.006/C/D
-Never annealed 6th fire brass NS/T2.006/C/D
-Annealed 6th fire brass, NS/T2.006/C/D
-**Never Annealed 10 fire brass, NS/T2.006/C/D
-**Annealed 10th fire brass, NS/T2.006/C/D

This method will ensure a direct comparison to the brass with the same level of work hardening over time (I.e. Fire and resizing operations). The group size would be the test parameter (independent variable) with number of reloads between annealing as the dependent variable.

Additionally, I will plot each of the groups for all shots just for good measure and test against the above intervals. But the ammo for test groups will ideally be shot the same day, so I will have to pre-fire much of the brass to get enough brass at various stages to perform the test above. The testing interval rounds will be loaded as closely as possible to the actual date of testing to reduce any issues with brass/copper neck tension variation.

**Note:** I actually have a different lot of bras that fits the 10/11th fire cycle without annealing criteria, so I will test that separately from the new lot of 100 to run the test above. If the test of my old worked brass goes anything like the first test, I will ABSOLUTELY be perking the new test listed here to determine

The goal will be to see I can verify/determine any ideal cycle time between reloading and annealing.

Any thoughts on what can be improved here or anything I missed, please feel free to add suggestions for testing! Thanks!


BTW what type of matches do you shoot?

 

[NV Ranger]

In the first picture you have groups #3 and #6 as Magazine Length with a 2.956" OAL. I assume that is simply a misprint and the OAL is 2.815.

Nice work by the way. Makes me think I need to anneal.

 

[pmclaine]

This was a horrible test, you should never have done it.

Ive been thinking an annealing machine is the only piece of equipment I lack but I havent wanted to pay for one nor find the place to put it. Ive justified my non commital by saying "It just doesnt matter!".

My wallet and tool cluttered work area do not salute your thorough, well researched efforts.

 

[rduckwor]

Thanks Rduckwor! I completely agree with the idea that it without data (control variable, test variable like scenarios) this long range game feels like your chasing your tail at times! This was by far the "best case scenario" for this type of test and while I'm hoping the results are repeatable, I may have had the stars align with good form/technique and conditions to create great groups.

I plan to set aside extra brass for another test to confirm this test (specifically cycle time count between Annealing Brass as related to accuracy as test variable) as follows:

Method: All brass will be neck sized only with Lee Collet Die and trimmed/chamfered/deburred to 2.006 before each reload. Load will be same throughout the test (Sierra 2156c, seated .020" from lands, 45.2gr IMR 4064 with BR-2 primers)

Groups of 4 will be shot and compared at the following intervals:
-new brass (Lapua), NS/T2.006/C/D)
-Annealed after 1st fire, with NS/T2.006/C/D
-Annealed after every fire with NS/T2.006/C/D (this group of brass will be shot from start to finish of experiment, 20 groups).
-Never annealed, 3rd fire brass NS/T2.006/C/D
-Annealed 3rd fire brass, NS/T2.006/C/D
-Never annealed 6th fire brass NS/T2.006/C/D
-Annealed 6th fire brass, NS/T2.006/C/D
-**Never Annealed 10 fire brass, NS/T2.006/C/D
-**Annealed 10th fire brass, NS/T2.006/C/D

This method will ensure a direct comparison to the brass with the same level of work hardening over time (I.e. Fire and resizing operations). The group size would be the test parameter (independent variable) with number of reloads between annealing as the dependent variable.

Additionally, I will plot each of the groups for all shots just for good measure and test against the above intervals. But the ammo for test groups will ideally be shot the same day, so I will have to pre-fire much of the brass to get enough brass at various stages to perform the test above. The testing interval rounds will be loaded as closely as possible to the actual date of testing to reduce any issues with brass/copper neck tension variation.

**Note:** I actually have a different lot of bras that fits the 10/11th fire cycle without annealing criteria, so I will test that separately from the new lot of 100 to run the test above. If the test of my old worked brass goes anything like the first test, I will ABSOLUTELY be perking the new test listed here to determine

The goal will be to see I can verify/determine any ideal cycle time between reloading and annealing.

Any thoughts on what can be improved here or anything I missed, please feel free to add suggestions for testing! Thanks!


BTW what type of matches do you shoot?

Two suggestions:

1. If you decide to run this entire protocol, break it up into smaller bites and document as you go forward. Fatigue impacts outcome far more than you think.

2. You may run into issues with neck-sizing only as you move into higher fired-count brass. One of the important issues with annealing (if not THE MOST IMPORTANT), is the ability to "soften" the work-hardened brass in the neck/shoulder region to allow us to set the shoulder back by bumping the shoulder. Neck sizing does not bump the shoulder and you may find that after a few firings, you won't be able to close the bolt on some of this high-count brass.
I typically anneal after each three firing cycles. I know guys who anneal after EACH firing (but we all know they are crazy or bench resters).

As for delaying the use of loaded rounds, "spring-back" is a common phenomenon with brass. Think of it as a slight "relaxation" of the sized brass over time.

It has been my experience that the delay in use of the round is not a huge factor while splitting your sizing and loading work over several sessions is a factor in accuracy. When I load for a match, I do all the cases in one session, i.e. all the sizing is done in one session. I have no problem charging and seating another day, but again, if I start a match loading run charging and seating, I will run the full compliment of rounds in that session. That way, I feel I get uniformity in terms of brass condition which , I hope, leads to uniform neck tension and uniform loads.

I shoot F-T/R matches and some hybrid LD matches and I am a world-class failure at both, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Well, that turned out to be a whole lots of words. Sorry for the length.

 

[Deadshot2]

Ive been thinking an annealing machine is the only piece of equipment I lack but I havent wanted to pay for one nor find the place to put it. Ive justified my non commital by saying "It just doesnt matter!".

I realized the benefits of annealing long ago but refused to jump on the "machine bandwagon". Rather than drop $500 or so and have to find space for one of the machines I just drug out one of my Bernz torches, an impact deep socket and adaptor so I could chuck it in a cordless drill, the cordless drill of course, and bought an $8 temperature crayon that melts at 750 degrees.

I can do a hundred cases in about 20 minutes and maintain a rate of 250 per hour if my arm is in shape. Insert brass in socket hold with flame directed at shoulder keeping track of time by counting to the beat of my favorite music (bluegrass works great for beat) and check for proper temp with crayon. When the crayon just smears it's 750 degrees. Merely pull case from flame and touch crayon to spinning surface. After checking a few cases you'll get the hang of the time needed for that flame setting then it's just a matter of insert case, hole in flame while counting, and dumping case in metal bowl to cool. Repeat. Not necessary to drop case in water to quench as brass annealing doesn't require this. Only thing quenching does is give you a wet case that you now have to wait for it to dry.

My total expense for annealing expense was buying the "tempilstik" heat crayon (from a local welding supply store). The rest came from my toolbox. Space? I anneal at the bar in my kitchen area just putting an old wood cutting board on the counter so my wife doesn't complain.

Been doing this for years now and since I started I've had ONE case neck split. Primer pockets loosen far sooner.

 

[Aimsmall55]

I realized the benefits of annealing long ago but refused to jump on the "machine bandwagon". Rather than drop $500 or so and have to find space for one of the machines I just drug out one of my Bernz torches, an impact deep socket and adaptor so I could chuck it in a cordless drill, the cordless drill of course, and bought an $8 temperature crayon that melts at 750 degrees.

I can do a hundred cases in about 20 minutes and maintain a rate of 250 per hour if my arm is in shape. Insert brass in socket hold with flame directed at shoulder keeping track of time by counting to the beat of my favorite music (bluegrass works great for beat) and check for proper temp with crayon. When the crayon just smears it's 750 degrees. Merely pull case from flame and touch crayon to spinning surface. After checking a few cases you'll get the hang of the time needed for that flame setting then it's just a matter of insert case, hole in flame while counting, and dumping case in metal bowl to cool. Repeat. Not necessary to drop case in water to quench as brass annealing doesn't require this. Only thing quenching does is give you a wet case that you now have to wait for it to dry.

My total expense for annealing expense was buying the "tempilstik" heat crayon (from a local welding supply store). The rest came from my toolbox. Space? I anneal at the bar in my kitchen area just putting an old wood cutting board on the counter so my wife doesn't complain.

Been doing this for years now and since I started I've had ONE case neck split. Primer pockets loosen far sooner.

+1 on the "cost effective" way. I've been doing it by hand for a pretty good while now. It takes a little practice and different brands of brass react differently in terms of change of colors that let you know it's being heated up at just the right amount.
I anneal for my .300 win mags EVERY SHOT and my groups are tighter than when I used to do it every other firing or so. I just use a regular old butane torch but it works!!

 

[SVG308]

Excellent post. Thanks for taking the time to do that - look forward to your further testing!

 

[catgunguy]

This has been very eye opening. I guess I need to start annealing my cases.

 

[former naval person]

Subwrks...
Greg Langelius (?my spelling may be off) made the same comment about loading close to the shooting date some years ago. You have verified his prejudice.

 

[pmclaine]

I realized the benefits of annealing long ago but refused to jump on the "machine bandwagon". Rather than drop $500 or so and have to find space for one of the machines I just drug out one of my Bernz torches, an impact deep socket and adaptor so I could chuck it in a cordless drill, the cordless drill of course, and bought an $8 temperature crayon that melts at 750 degrees.

I can do a hundred cases in about 20 minutes and maintain a rate of 250 per hour if my arm is in shape. Insert brass in socket hold with flame directed at shoulder keeping track of time by counting to the beat of my favorite music (bluegrass works great for beat) and check for proper temp with crayon. When the crayon just smears it's 750 degrees. Merely pull case from flame and touch crayon to spinning surface. After checking a few cases you'll get the hang of the time needed for that flame setting then it's just a matter of insert case, hole in flame while counting, and dumping case in metal bowl to cool. Repeat. Not necessary to drop case in water to quench as brass annealing doesn't require this. Only thing quenching does is give you a wet case that you now have to wait for it to dry.

My total expense for annealing expense was buying the "tempilstik" heat crayon (from a local welding supply store). The rest came from my toolbox. Space? I anneal at the bar in my kitchen area just putting an old wood cutting board on the counter so my wife doesn't complain.

Been doing this for years now and since I started I've had ONE case neck split. Primer pockets loosen far sooner.

IM not a good candidate for this personality wise.

I load on an S1050. I trim on the S1050. My case mouths are too sharp for my tastes after going through the Rapid Trim so I handle each case to debur, chamfer and while Im at it I use the Case Prep Trio to clean the primer pockets because that function is there. I get acceptable ammo for my skills, and lots of it. I load like a car manufacturer changing assembly lines - .223, breakdown/change, .308, breakdown change, 30-06, breakdown/change, etc through my pistol calibers than start over.

I just hate the thought of the individual case handling that would be required for this method of annealing. A Giraud would appeal to me. Load the hopper and let it go.

Perhaps with the methods I use to load Im back to "What difference does it make" but my thinking is weighted toward increasing longevity of my brass while gaining better odds of getting consistent ammo.

I think I am unworthy of a precision shooting forum.

 

[gigamortis]

When I stated annealing, I immediately noticed my groups sizes were cut in half vs. non-annealed cases. Another helpful step in my brass preparation has been ultrasonic cleaning of the brass. I have gotten my SDs into single digits consistently with clean, carbon free neck IDs.

 

[haroldwilson]

You should try taking a box of new Lapua and anneal some cases. Test them against some non-annealed cases from the same box. You might be surprised what you find.

 

[Subwrx300]

You should try taking a box of new Lapua and anneal some cases. Test them against some non-annealed cases from the same box. You might be surprised what you find.

I actually have a brand new lot of 100 Lapua brass... Do you mean re-anneal the already annealed cases and leave some "factory" condition?

 

[rboyes]

I'm curious about the annealing- do you think it would be of benefit for me? Most of my shooting is 3 gun, so obviously it wouldn't matter for hoser targets, but I'll always take more accuracy over less if it can save me a few shots on the 'long range' targets (and a more accurate rifle is always more fun). Loading for a gas gun, I always full length resize of course. Also while I do my best to collect up brass, it isn't always possible such as at a major match. I do sort my brass by headstamp for my long range loads but I still don't have the control over brass like someone with a bolt gun does. So do people think annealing would be of benefit when my brass will only be used a few times before it is lost?

 

[Bill Larson]

Good work.......... Thank You........ that case welding subject is an interesting topic in itself......having shot ammo loaded in the 1940`s..... with success..... I`ve discussed this phenom...with other shooters and some have run into it.... could it be a form of electrolysis...???

 

[Deadshot2]

Do you mean re-anneal the already annealed cases and leave some "factory" condition?

Why not. Was the factory brass annealed before or after final "sizing"? If after then a certain amount of work hardening has occurred and annealing will be a benefit.

Lapua brass is better than most but it's not perfect.

 

[Sweetyzfd]

Nice write up. ..... Thanks for the info. Already hav a giraud thank god

 

[BIPMaster]

Damn, this pushed me over the edge. Gotta get an annealing setup.

 

[richidaho]

Thanks, always thought annealing helped with accuracy but never would of thought it help that much. Thanks once more for the informative post.

Rich L

 

[Subwrx300]

In the first picture you have groups #3 and #6 as Magazine Length with a 2.956" OAL. I assume that is simply a misprint and the OAL is 2.815.

Nice work by the way. Makes me think I need to anneal.

Ranger sorry for the slow reply. Actually groups 3 and 6 were 2.915 COAL... I was testing only groups 2 and 4 at magazine length as a subtlest.

 

[Capt Academy]

Great post!

 

[woojos]

Thanks for typing it up and sharing. I'm wondering if the annealing is affecting neck tension i.e. a work hardened case may be slower to release the bullet leading to a slightly different pressure curve?

 

[haroldwilson]

I actually have a brand new lot of 100 Lapua brass... Do you mean re-anneal the already annealed cases and leave some "factory" condition?

Yes.

 

[haroldwilson]

Thanks for typing it up and sharing. I'm wondering if the annealing is affecting neck tension i.e. a work hardened case may be slower to release the bullet leading to a slightly different pressure curve?

As the brass hardens it doesn't take the "set" from the die as well as when it was soft. It springs back. So if you are using a bushing die to get .002" smaller neck before seating your bullet, it might spring back meaning you no longer have .002" smaller neck. If the cases are hardened different amounts, they can spring back different amounts. This means you have inconsistent neck tension.

This same thing happens when shoulder bumping your brass. If your shoulder bump dimensions are all over the place, assuming your sizing method is sound, it is likely because of work hardening. This is why you have to readjust your die sometimes when you are sizing brass that has been fired a lot. Anneal the brass and you shoulder bump dimension will fall in line. Anneal every firing and you may be able to never readjust your sizing die.

 

[woojos]

This same thing happens when shoulder bumping your brass. If your shoulder bump dimensions are all over the place, assuming your sizing method is sound, it is likely because of work hardening. This is why you have to readjust your die sometimes when you are sizing brass that has been fired a lot. Anneal the brass and you shoulder bump dimension will fall in line. Anneal every firing and you may be able to never readjust your sizing die.

I finished sizing about 300 of the same lot of Lapua brass last week, once fired, and saw more variation in shoulder bump dimension than I would have liked to. I'd have to remeasure, but there was a variance of maybe 3 thousandths if I remember correctly? I was using an RCSB Rockchucker w/ the RCSB shellplate. It was enough that I'm going to run them through my rifle to make sure they all chamber easily enough before I load them.

Any idea on what a typical bump dimension variance is on properly annealed brass?

 

[haroldwilson]

I finished sizing about 300 of the same lot of Lapua brass last week, once fired, and saw more variation in shoulder bump dimension than I would have liked to. I'd have to remeasure, but there was a variance of maybe 3 thousandths if I remember correctly? I was using an RCSB Rockchucker w/ the RCSB shellplate. It was enough that I'm going to run them through my rifle to make sure they all chamber easily enough before I load them.

Any idea on what a typical bump dimension variance is on properly annealed brass?

I can hold mine to +- .001" with most closer than that on my measuring system. Of course, I am measuring with a caliper that has .001" accuracy with a clamp on device holding an aluminum comparator. I won't say the entire system is even capable of actually measuring +- .001", but it is what I have to work with.

Are you confident in your sizing set up? Are you getting cam over on your press?

 

[woojos]

I can hold mine to +- .001" with most closer than that on my measuring system. Of course, I am measuring with a caliper that has .001" accuracy with a clamp on device holding an aluminum comparator. I won't say the entire system is even capable of actually measuring +- .001", but it is what I have to work with.

Are you confident in your sizing set up? Are you getting cam over on your press?

I haven't been doing this very long so and confidence would probably be more bravado.

I'm not camming over and try to use as consistent pressure at the top of the stroke as possible. I'm using polymer bump gauges.

I did a bunch of LC awhile ago and had less variance.

This Lapua brass I just sized had been shot out of two different chambers so that may have something to do with it.

 

[ChrisBCS]

I started annealing today mainly because of this thread. The results shown here are absurdly significant. Bravo and thank you for sharing.

 

[Subwrx300]

I've been thinking about the results from this test since the original post. I think that while these individual results are very impressive, I have to say that I think the results may only be so "significant" because I am using a factory barrel with a long throat. The need for consistency in both reloading techniques and shooting form is much higher in a rifle that is at (worst case) will shoot 1 MOA consistency with moderate ammo vs a gun that is capable of 1/2 MOA or better with moderate ammo.

Add shooter variation of even 1/2 MOA and the results may not have looked any different that most groups. I would be interested if someone following the thread can take a known TRUE 1/2 or 1/4 minute rifle with custom barrel and repeat a portion of this test with a few groups.

Basically fire and reload 12 rounds without annealing 4-5 times and then anneal half. Reload trim size etc exactly the same way with each round (other than the annealing process) and see if you get similar results, posting results here. Especially some of the posters that said they have seen similar results.

Looking forward to any takers on this follow up test!

 

[PlinkIt]

never expected that!!!!!!!!!!

I just thought it was extending the useful life....

 

[bruddah]

Would you see this much improvement if you were "jamming" the bullets into the lands?

 

[Subwrx300]

I can't answer that... I've not jammed bullets as I use rifle for multiple purposes and don't want to have bullet pulled when clearing chamber.

On a side note, I've setup a followup test with the same brass after a few firings to test same annealed vs non annealed to see if results can be repeated. Annealing will have been done to brass on back to back firings and will be testing 3 5-shot groups of both newly annealed and non-annealed. Will post results as soon as possible. Should have range time this weekend to post results .

 

[Subwrx300]

Would you see this much improvement if you were "jamming" the bullets into the lands?

Also, I currently seat that load at .020" from lands and haven't seen anything better from as little as .005" off. Sweet spot for this list and my rig send to be -.040 to -.020 off lands. Still trying to work out a jumpable load (magazine length loads) with these bullets but I am so me what resigned to the fact that its not gonna happen with the 155smk in my rifle. Now Scenars on the other hand actually load to mag length while only seated .015" off, but I digress...

 

[bruddah]

I can't answer that... I've not jammed bullets as I use rifle for multiple purposes and don't want to have bullet pulled when clearing chamber.

On a side note, I've setup a followup test with the same brass after a few firings to test same annealed vs non annealed to see if results can be repeated. Annealing will have been done to brass on back to back firings and will be testing 3 5-shot groups of both newly annealed and non-annealed. Will post results as soon as possible. Should have range time this weekend to post results .

I only ask because in theory a jammed bullet might offset (to some extent) the difference in tension of the neck.

It would be cool to see if there was a difference in group size between jammed bullets with annealed, and non-annealed brass.

 

[bruddah]

Stupid double tap...

 

[Subwrx300]

I only ask because in theory a jammed bullet might offset (to some extent) the difference in tension of the neck.

It would be cool to see if there was a difference in group size between jammed bullets with annealed, and non-annealed brass.

Thats not a bad theory... Jammed bullets may "act" more like newly annealed jumped bullets. I will see about adding a few jammed bullets to my test this weekend. Great suggestion!

 

[bruddah]

Thats not a bad theory... Jammed bullets may "act" more like newly annealed jumped bullets. I will see about adding a few jammed bullets to my test this weekend. Great suggestion!

That would be awesome! I'm tuned in!

 

[James n TN]

Ok I just ran a test on accuracy with my 600 yard BR rifle with annealed cases that were FL sized and neck sized and annealed neck sized only and then I did the test with no annealing FL and neck size and then just neck sized only.

Each case had a nylon brush run inside the neck with a power drill and nothing else done. The outcome of this test over a 4 day period shooting at different times of the day showed most accuracy was with cases that were not annealed and between the FL+neck sizing vs just neck sizing that was a toss up. I shot a series of four (3) shot groups on each sequence mentioned and at 100 yards not a single group was over .125 and most were in the zeros. Yes literally I was shooting one hole groups. With the non annealed cases showing best accuracy.

Some of you may frown upon the 3 shot group testing but with four groups fired at each sitting for each sequence for four consecutive days in a row the consistency was there and enough to warrant my findings on my test results.

I also use a strain gauge on my inlign press so I can measure seating pressure of my rounds as well. I have recorded the pressure and will keep an eye on this and when I see it change then I will test a series of groups to see how much pressure change will affect accuracy. If it shows then I will run my cases back thru the annealer and start fresh with fresh annealed cases.

Rifle used is a custom blue printed Remington 40x BR Jewell trigger, barrel is a Krieger 1-8" .236 bore 28" long chambered in a 6 dasher with a .268 neck and a turned case with loaded round .2662 action is bedded in a Shehane laminated tracker stock, the scope is a March 10-60x52
Lapua cases
Berger 108 match bullets
F205m primer
Varget powder
Bullet is .030 into lands which actually pushes the bullet into the case. If you can get a bullet to shoot jammed like this you'll get your most consistent accuracy, reason being by pushing the bullet it will what we call unweld the bullet from the case. In return you get more consistent bullet release.

 

[bruddah]

Ok I just ran a test on accuracy with my 600 yard BR rifle with annealed cases that were FL sized and neck sized and annealed neck sized only and then I did the test with no annealing FL and neck size and then just neck sized only.

Each case had a nylon brush run inside the neck with a power drill and nothing else done. The outcome of this test over a 4 day period shooting at different times of the day showed most accuracy was with cases that were not annealed and between the FL+neck sizing vs just neck sizing that was a toss up. I shot a series of four (3) shot groups on each sequence mentioned and at 100 yards not a single group was over .125 and most were in the zeros. Yes literally I was shooting one hole groups. With the non annealed cases showing best accuracy.

Some of you may frown upon the 3 shot group testing but with four groups fired at each sitting for each sequence for four consecutive days in a row the consistency was there and enough to warrant my findings on my test results.

I also use a strain gauge on my inlign press so I can measure seating pressure of my rounds as well. I have recorded the pressure and will keep an eye on this and when I see it change then I will test a series of groups to see how much pressure change will affect accuracy. If it shows then I will run my cases back thru the annealer and start fresh with fresh annealed cases.

Rifle used is a custom blue printed Remington 40x BR Jewell trigger, barrel is a Krieger 1-8" .236 bore 28" long chambered in a 6 dasher with a .268 neck and a turned case with loaded round .2662 action is bedded in a Shehane laminated tracker stock, the scope is a March 10-60x52
Lapua cases
Berger 108 match bullets
F205m primer
Varget powder
Bullet is .030 into lands which actually pushes the bullet into the case. If you can get a bullet to shoot jammed like this you'll get your most consistent accuracy, reason being by pushing the bullet it will what we call unweld the bullet from the case. In return you get more consistent bullet release.

Very interesting. At what point is jamming going to make no difference? .040" ?? .050" ?? As it is going to do exactly as you say. Break the weld.

 

[James n TN]

Anytime you break the so called weld between the case and bullet it'll show a difference on paper. I understand your question and I'm no sure if say a. 01 jam will break it enough to show much better consistent bullet release and accuracy over say a. 04 jam. My theory and this is a theory only I the more you move that bullet once seated the better your release will be

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[Deadshot2]

Anytime you break the so called weld between the case and bullet it'll show a difference on paper. I understand your question and I'm no sure if say a. 01 jam will break it enough to show much better consistent bullet release and accuracy over say a. 04 jam. My theory and this is a theory only I the more you move that bullet once seated the better your release will be

Sent from my Droid RAZR Maxx HD using Tapatalk Pro

Just a caution to those who are going to try this method for the first time. If you jam your bullet into the lands with sufficient pressure to push the bullet back into the case there's a better than good chance that the bullet is now "stuck" in the lands. No big deal if you pull the trigger. Could be a major problem if a cease fire is called and you attempt to extract that cartridge. You COULD end up with a bullet stuck in the throat and an action filled with powder spilled from the case. If your neck tension was high enough to prevent this the stuck bullet could prevent you from removing the cartridge and you'll have to shoot it.

Just be aware. Most Bench Rest shooters use so little neck tension that it's standard practice to just send the round down range when a cease fire is called. In other circumstances it might not acceptable.

 

[Subwrx300]

Just a caution to those who are going to try this method for the first time. If you jam your bullet into the lands with sufficient pressure to push the bullet back into the case there's a better than good chance that the bullet is now "stuck" in the lands. No big deal if you pull the trigger. Could be a major problem if a cease fire is called and you attempt to extract that cartridge. You COULD end up with a bullet stuck in the throat and an action filled with powder spilled from the case. If your neck tension was high enough to prevent this the stuck bullet could prevent you from removing the cartridge and you'll have to shoot it.

Just be aware. Most Bench Rest shooters use so little neck tension that it's standard practice to just send the round down range when a cease fire is called. In other circumstances it might not acceptable.

+1 deadshot. This is the reason I don't used jammed loads; I am only using for this singular test as it's frankly not worth the potential mess if I need to extract round before firing. In addition, it may requires new load work up/reduced charge as pressure can spike with jammed loads. Use this technique with caution above all else.

 

[Deadshot2]

In addition, it may requires new load work up/reduced charge as pressure can spike with jammed loads. Use this technique with caution above all else.

I do this with test loads when using a powder for the first time, especially if there's limited data available. This lets me know the absolute max load for my rifle using this powder. Once I find the accuracy node with a jammed bullet I am usually able to just shorten the OAL without changing charge weight until I find a node using the same charge yet shorter OAL. It's one of those "works for me" type things

 

[James n TN]

I own an oehler model 43 with strain gauges and down range amplifier. On load development using the strain gauges you have a peak pressure with jammed bullets and as you back off you also see pressures back off, then as you decrease case capacity by seating the bullet deeper into the case I've seen pressures rise back to within 500-800 lbs of pressure with jammed loads. This varies also based on case design and capacity. At one time yrs ago I produced a chart showing the pressures at various seating depths. I'll see if I can dig that back up and post it.

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