Gunsmithing The absolute best firearm finish

[tictar]

I am building a custom hunting rifle to that will be used in two opposite types of Terrance. I am planning a hunt with a buddy to Cameroon (which is a humid ocean bordering jungle country Africa) and also a Brown Bear trip to Alaska with another bud.

My rifle will be a working rifle (vs a luxury wood hunting rig) that needs to withstand both weather and physical abuse. Both places are located near the ocean and we do plan on camping, so the rifle will be subjected to salt spray and high humidity. In addition I have been known to drop things from time to time so I want a finish that can hold up reliably.

For me the best finish needs to have the following criteria:

-Very high salt spray longevity
-High Rockwell Rating for hardness- So it does not scratch easily
-Bonds or Penetrates the metal somehow so it does not flake off easily
-Can be applied to small parts such as me folding express sights

I would prefer the finish to be matte black if at all possible.

With this criteria what would be the best firearm finish?

 

[Captain Moroni]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

Cerakote hands down

 

[THUNDERBOLT68]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

FALCON FINISHING

 

[Captain Moroni]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

Cerakote goes on thinner so you can coat and protect the inside of the action. I have used Duracoat for years and now that I have started using Cerakote I can tell you its a night and day difference.

There is plenty of info around here on how tough Cerakote is, somewhere there is a video of Lowlight (the owner of Snipers Hide) blowing up a rifle coated with Cerakote with a jug of Tannerite with no ill effects.

 

[ugsly]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

Captain is right, the bake on cerakote is hard to beat.

Kc

 

[tictar]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

Wow! How does Cerakote and Falcon Finishing measure up?

-salt spray longevity
-Rockwell Rating (For example NP3 has a RC of 48-51)
-Bonds or Penetrates the metal?

Cerakote even goes inside the action? Does it go inside the barrel?

 

[mattj]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

Sounds to me like a Nickel Boron Nitride treatment might be what you are looking for -- I don't know the specs off the top of my head, but I know it is very hard, doesn't need lubrication, can treat inside and out, and is very corrosion resistant.

FailZero recently made it somewhat popular, but I don't believe they will treat your stuff.

I believe http://www.wmdguns.com was started buy guys who left FailZero -- I don't have any first hand experience with them though. I'm sure there are plenty of folks out there who can do NiB.

 

[Inline6]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

Melnoite the barrel Ion Bond the action. The other finishes listed will come off or scratch. That's my .02

 

[lw8]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

You can't ion bond or Ni Cor the complete action?

As I understand it, the bolt lugs and the receiver can not be the same hardness...

 

[VKC]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

Melonite, which will also add some velocity and extend barrel life.

 

[Captain Moroni]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

Falcon uses Cerakote. No Cerakote does not go down the barrel.

 

[STR]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

One more for Cerakote. Check out NICs web page, and you'll find that the finish covers your needs. Good luck.

 

[excaliber]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

The bad thing about paint is it doesn`t get in the bore or chamber, which will cause rust if exposed to high humidity or salt spray. Send it to MMI and have it nitrided. They have done about eight guns for me and I am 100 percent satisfied. What good is paint if you can`t protect the most important part of a firearm.

 

[bigwheeler]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

Stainless and fiberglass, doesn't really matter what you coat them with. Yea, I know
you can rust stainless a little, but a silicon cloth is enough to stop it from happening.

 

[LRI]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

Titanium Aluminum Nitride will have cerakote hiding in a corner sucking its thumb.

As for falcon coat, its also cerakote. . .

Vapor deposition. Look it up. MMI in san diego used to do it. Ask for Nathan.

Good luck.

C.

 

[Bruiser_Joe]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

San Diego huh that is interesting

 

[WPG]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

W.E.Birdsong.

http://black-t.com/aboutus.htm

It is also used on tools, nuts, bolts and equipment.

http://black-t.com/applications.htm

We have used it on several 1911's and long range bolt guns. Great stuff and great people to deal with.

 

[BigNoise]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

Melonite everything.

If having differing hardness between action and bolt is required (not sure), chrome the bolt instead.

Then Cerakote or whatever spray on finish on top of that.

 

[USGUNWORKS]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

Cerakote is great for most applications. It doesnt go in the chamber or bore but a stainless barrel doesnt need it.

Ive seen ION bond (deposition) stuff before and it looks like the cats meow for durability if you are just wanting black.

 

[Megacab]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 30calsniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cerakote is great for most applications. It doesnt go in the chamber or bore but a stainless barrel doesnt need it.

Ive seen ION bond (deposition) stuff before and it looks like the cats meow for durability if you are just wanting black. </div></div>


Anything Todd paints.

 

[Jhnmdahl]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

Salt bath nitriding (aka melonite, tenifer, etc.) would be on my short list, as would diamond-like carbon (dlc) from ionbond (aka Nitron) if in my budget. Both are matte black, as you desire.

Cerakote would likely only be considered as a surface coating over one of these other chemical treatments if I wanted to change the color.

 

[turbo54]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Inline 6</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Melnoite the barrel Ion Bond the action. The other finishes listed will come off or scratch. That's my .02 </div></div>

This. I don't have anything against cerakote, but it doesn't hold a candle to melonite/nitriding/tenifer.

Have you messed with Glocks or XDs or Smith M&Ps? They are nitrided, and that is a BADASS finish. Doesn't rust, diamond hard, damn hard to scratch. No dings, scuffs or anything. Perhaps best of all, it isn't a coating. Its a heat treatment. The pistols mentioned are "working" pistols, and the Melonite is surely up to the task.

Check this link out. Its of a glock that gets utterly abused. Check out the part where he disassembles, puts the parts in a sock, submerges in salt water brine, then sets it on his window sill to dry for a week or so! Some steel wool and its back in fighting form.

http://theprepared.com/content/view/90//administrator/

If I could, every part of every gun would be melonited.

The ion bond coating is one of the PVD (physical vapor deposition) that chad mentioned.

 

[Hellbender]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

I'd buy a Stainless Steel gun to start!

 

[Redcreek1]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

The problem with some of the other finishes mentioned is that they are not exactly "matte" black. For example, Ionbond is a Chemical Vapor Disposition (CVD) process that can deposit a range of different coatings onto the base metal substrate, such as TiN ATiN, etc so all Ionbond finishes are not created equal.

Fail Zero, and most Nickel Boron are silver finishes, some Ionbond finishes are silver also, some gold and some dark grey, as well the black DLT, but all I have seen were shiny, rather than matte as far as sheen.

Cerakote’s properties for rust resistance as tested using ASTM B117 Corrosion testing is over 5,000 hours without onset of corrosion.

Hardness for firearms finishes it typically tested using the ASTM D3363 Pencil Hardness scale and Cerakote is rated at 9h, which is as high as the scale goes.

In Tabor Abrasion (wear) Testing ASTM D4060 Cerakote withstood 0ver 8,000 abrasion cycles of an 8” abrasive wheel against 1.0mil coating

Adhesion Cross-Cut Tape (ASTM D3359) shows a rating of 5b

Impact (ASTM D2794) Cerakote withstands 160inch pounds of impact without cracking or loss of adhesion.

With Cerakote there are a variety of blacks available from very flat “matte” to high gloss. There are also Cerakote versions available which can be used to coat barrel bores and chambers, which are nano-ceramic dry-film lubricant coatings that penetrate the metal structure and only have a .25 mil surface film thickness. We tested these coatings at Barnes Bullets – Barnes Ballistic Research facility on both barrel bores and bullets. They can be used in tight tolerance applications and have passed Mil standard corrosion test requirements of 150hrs without onset of corrosion.

So, in summary Cerakote is a very high performance firearms coating that can be applied in “matte” black, which would likely more than meet your intended requirements and is typically less costly than some of the other coatings/plating options.

 

[BigBlue&Goldie]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

I don't worry about rust with my hunting rifles cause I give them a quick rub down with oil each night. It only takes a minute and it provides peace of mind. In a perfect world, I would melonite all my gear, but my budget allows for Cerakote and oil (where the Cerakote doesn't protect).

 

[Inline6]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lw8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can't ion bond or Ni Cor the complete action?

As I understand it, the bolt lugs and the receiver can not be the same hardness... </div></div>

Many actions and bolt are done in Ion Bond along with with 1911s and all are running fine.

W.E.Birdsong- I find that finish to be to soft scratches to easy I know it protects even after to color is gone. I personal was not happy with it, just did not hold up.

 

[yourotherleft]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

+1 on Melonite

 

[lw8]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Inline 6</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lw8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can't ion bond or Ni Cor the complete action?

As I understand it, the bolt lugs and the receiver can not be the same hardness... </div></div>

Many actions and bolt are done in Ion Bond along with with 1911s and all are running fine.

W.E.Birdsong- I find that finish to be to soft scratches to easy I know it protects even after to color is gone. I personal was not happy with it, just did not hold up.</div></div>

Wow...word that I got from a couple of people that do it for a living was that it was uber bad to do the entire action as it would gall badly where the lugs engaged the receiver.

Anyone have high round counts on an action that has been fully treated?

 

[Captain Moroni]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

I don't want anybody to take this as argumentative and I love the Tenifer finish on the Glocks but when I re-finish a Glock and the slide goes in the sand blaster that finish is gone in seconds. Cerakote on the other hand will take quite a bit of 70 grit aluminum oxide @120 PSI before it gives up.

The Tenifer finish is very good but it is not as abrasion resistant as Cerakote.

I will be getting my next barrel nitrided, I have heard good reports of extended barrel life.

 

[turbo54]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Moroni</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't want anybody to take this as argumentative and I love the Tenifer finish on the Glocks but when I re-finish a Glock and the slide goes in the sand blaster that finish is gone in seconds. Cerakote on the other hand will take quite a bit of 70 grit aluminum oxide @120 PSI before it gives up.

The Tenifer finish is very good but it is not as abrasion resistant as Cerakote.

I will be getting my next barrel nitrided, I have heard good reports of extended barrel life. </div></div>

The black on a glock is not "the" finish. It is a residual of the heat treatment. When you blast the black off a glock, the "bare" metal is still rock hard and extremely corrosion resistant.

 

[hero's machine]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

park it and cerakote it to color of choice.

 

[Inline6]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lw8</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Inline 6</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lw8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can't ion bond or Ni Cor the complete action?

As I understand it, the bolt lugs and the receiver can not be the same hardness... </div></div>

Many actions and bolt are done in Ion Bond along with with 1911s and all are running fine.

W.E.Birdsong- I find that finish to be to soft scratches to easy I know it protects even after to color is gone. I personal was not happy with it, just did not hold up.</div></div>

Wow...word that I got from a couple of people that do it for a living was that it was uber bad to do the entire action as it would gall badly where the lugs engaged the receiver.

Anyone have high round counts on an action that has been fully treated? </div></div>

I do not have a high round count but north of 200 rounds (by the end of the month should be close to 1k). Looks like the day I received it. I will get pics posted of the lugs on the bolt.

 

[tbugher62]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

1+ Cerakote graphite black!

 

[Slinky001]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

I thought Rogard from Robar was fantastic with the np3 bolt coating.

Brian

 

[Redcreek1]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Captain Moroni</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't want anybody to take this as argumentative and I love the Tenifer finish on the Glocks but when I re-finish a Glock and the slide goes in the sand blaster that finish is gone in seconds. Cerakote on the other hand will take quite a bit of 70 grit aluminum oxide @120 PSI before it gives up.

The Tenifer finish is very good but it is not as abrasion resistant as Cerakote.

I will be getting my next barrel nitrided, I have heard good reports of extended barrel life. </div></div>

The black on a glock is not "the" finish. It is a residual of the heat treatment. When you blast the black off a glock, the "bare" metal is still rock hard and extremely corrosion resistant. </div></div>

Thats basically correct. Glock applies a black phoshate finish over the Tenifer and it does blast off rather quickly, but the Tenifer is still there. It takes a more blasting if you want to remove the Tenifer.

 

[K_Labs]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

Winning! We use Ti coating on our tooling at work and it's unbeatable. The thickness is so minute that you can't even really measure the difference with micrometers. They Ti coat carbide cutoff inserts and when those things wear down the Ti coating is still intact but the carbide is worn.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Titanium Aluminum Nitride will have cerakote hiding in a corner sucking its thumb.

As for falcon coat, its also cerakote. . .

Vapor deposition. Look it up. MMI in san diego used to do it. Ask for Nathan.

Good luck.

C. </div></div>

 

[turbo54]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_Labs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Winning! We use Ti coating on our tooling at work and it's unbeatable. The thickness is so minute that you can't even really measure the difference with micrometers. They Ti coat carbide cutoff inserts and when those things wear down the Ti coating is still intact but the carbide is worn.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Titanium Aluminum Nitride will have cerakote hiding in a corner sucking its thumb.

As for falcon coat, its also cerakote. . .

Vapor deposition. Look it up. MMI in san diego used to do it. Ask for Nathan.

Good luck.

C. </div></div> </div></div>

TiN coating is bright, bling bling, gangsta gold. Seems a bit much for a hunting rifle. It is tough stuff though.

I've wondered if Gaddaffi's Browning high power was TiN coated or actually gold plated...?

 

[Hummerdawg]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

If I wanted black. Ionbond for sure.

 

[Wheres-Waldo]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

IonBond everything...

I have 99% of the metal in my bolt rifle IonBonded, action, bolt, barrel, bore, firing pin...ect, ect.

The only thing I wouldnt advise you to IonBond are springs and your trigger.

 

[LRI]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_Labs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Winning! We use Ti coating on our tooling at work and it's unbeatable. The thickness is so minute that you can't even really measure the difference with micrometers. They Ti coat carbide cutoff inserts and when those things wear down the Ti coating is still intact but the carbide is worn.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Titanium Aluminum Nitride will have cerakote hiding in a corner sucking its thumb.

As for falcon coat, its also cerakote. . .

Vapor deposition. Look it up. MMI in san diego used to do it. Ask for Nathan.

Good luck.

C. </div></div> </div></div>

TiN coating is bright, bling bling, gangsta gold. Seems a bit much for a hunting rifle. It is tough stuff though.

I've wondered if Gaddaffi's Browning high power was TiN coated or actually gold plated...? </div></div>


Not true. Your thinking of fancy drill bits at home depot.

What I'm talking about is a dull grey/black finish. Very similar in color to cerakote tactical grey. One is an electroplate I think. What I'm describing is vapor deposition.

96c rockwell. Immune to salt/acid/abrasion.

Spendy, but killer stuff.

C.

 

[turbo54]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: K_Labs</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Winning! We use Ti coating on our tooling at work and it's unbeatable. The thickness is so minute that you can't even really measure the difference with micrometers. They Ti coat carbide cutoff inserts and when those things wear down the Ti coating is still intact but the carbide is worn.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Titanium Aluminum Nitride will have cerakote hiding in a corner sucking its thumb.

As for falcon coat, its also cerakote. . .

Vapor deposition. Look it up. MMI in san diego used to do it. Ask for Nathan.

Good luck.

C. </div></div> </div></div>

TiN coating is bright, bling bling, gangsta gold. Seems a bit much for a hunting rifle. It is tough stuff though.

I've wondered if Gaddaffi's Browning high power was TiN coated or actually gold plated...? </div></div>


Not true. Your thinking of fancy drill bits at home depot.

What I'm talking about is a dull grey/black finish. Very similar in color to cerakote tactical grey. One is an electroplate I think. What I'm describing is vapor deposition.

96c rockwell. Immune to salt/acid/abrasion.

Spendy, but killer stuff.

C.

</div></div>

Interesting. We are talking about separate things, obviously. Do you know exactly what the one you're speaking of is called? Titanium Nitride, or TiN is definitely a PVD process, and is the bright gold you see on many tooling inserts and some drills. Its a pretty good coating although I have no idea where it pings on the Rc scale. I'd like to read/know more about the coating your referring to.

 

[cattle buyer]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

check out ROBAR in az, they did a gun for me in mid 90's that Im very pleased with if a bit pricey . ceracoat is great in most cases.

 

[GardDog]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

My local gun guru tipped me off to Isonite QPQ. I have a 1911 getting finished with it right now. I've heard great things... It's hard waiting for the pistol to return.

 

[LRI]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

Your talking Titanium Nitride.

I said Titanium Aluminum Nitride.

There's also Titanium Carbo Nitride which has just a pinch less friction.

Here's the link to the folks in CA.

http://coatingservicesgroup.com/index.php/coating

 

[cfish36]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBlue&Goldie</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't worry about rust with my hunting rifles cause I give them a quick rub down with oil each night. It only takes a minute and it provides peace of mind. In a perfect world, I would melonite all my gear, but my budget allows for Cerakote and oil (where the Cerakote doesn't protect).</div></div>

I agree!!

I have sprayed cerakote on my rifle and I just make sure that the bore is oiled. technically the bore should be covered in a layer of carbon and in my case a little bit of oil. I would not worry about the bore rusting. Keep in mind that I am in no way saying the other options are bad; i just found it easier to cerakote my rifle and then take care of it(meaning the parts not cerakoted).

NIC industries does have a virtual color simulator. it pretty cool! So all that to say: cerakote +1

 

[ejg]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

At uni we had all the fancy ceramic surface coatings, it was astonishing how easy one can scratch all these coatings with a hard object. A scratch comes from impact, with a micron thick hard surface like ceramic their is no dampening and then with a soft underground like stainless a stone for example will peel off the ceramic easily. I was working in ceramic developement for about 20 years and learned that too hard doesn't last either.
I have a ceracoated rifle that roedale made for me as my main hunting rifle and after about 6 years of running around in the hills with many tumbles I think it is hard to beat. Most scratches are only on the surface, very few make it through to the metall.
edi

 

[razor_blade]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

What Chad said, TiAlN PVD coating, or tungsten DLC. I have both on firearms and they are spectacular.

 

[LRI]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

I'll put it like this with TIALN.

At Nesika is when I first got introduced to this stuff. I was putting a final assy on a piece one day. I had an oops and the barrel took a hit on the floor.

White chit all over the edge of the crown, but no dent.

With head hanging low I sulk into Mike/Glen's office to confess my sins.

Mike told me to wet a rag with Kroil and rub it. White chit went away like magic.

The Barrel chipped the concrete. The concrete didn't ding the barrel. The white stuff was spalled rock stuck to the coating.

Another example.

Chromoly barrel coated in this stuff was hung off a pier at Coronado Island in San Diego for 12 months. Came back, scraped off the marine life, screwed it onto a gun, and went shooting.

Tis some bad azz stuff.

We use cerakote here. Seems like we brush our teeth with it by how much we go through. (not complaining)

It's nice, it gets the job done, but its not even on the same planet as the vapor deposition process. The issue is cost. It's about 2 million dollars to buy the equipment to do this stuff. After that, it's about .35 cents in material costs and a few dollars worth of kilowatts. Due to the cost of equipment a typical job costs around $500+ dollars. Many can't justify that expense.

The other issue is the product liability insurance most of these companies require a shop to have before they will even touch a gun. MMI in San Diego was like this.

Last, alot of shops have been burt so bad by gun shops they won't even mess with it anymore.

Rumor here in the industrial park suggests a company may be moving here soon to offer this service. Rest assured if it ever comes to fruition and it's reasonably priced, it'll be one more little addition to our list of services.

Hope this helps.

C.

 

[Inline6]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

Here is my bolt like I said 208rds and I could not give a dry fire count (but that count is high).

 

[tictar]

Re: The absolute best firearm finish

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: razor_blade</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What Chad said, TiAlN PVD coating, or tungsten DLC. I have both on firearms and they are spectacular. </div></div>

Do you mind posting some pics?