Even if a person filed a Form 1, was approved and has the tax stamp in hand, they still must surrender or destroy their suppressor.
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The ATF responds to Solvent Traps Made by Diversified Machine
- Thread starter Longshot231
- Start date
If you're in category 1: You're screwed
If you're in category 2: You're stupid and screwed
If you're in category 3: You're screwed and it's BS!
I would THINK.. if the ATF approved a Form 1, you should be able to get your $200 back and go back to DM and get a refund.
However... what I think isn't relevant and probably wrong because, it's the ATF.
If you're in category 2: You're stupid and screwed
If you're in category 3: You're screwed and it's BS!
I would THINK.. if the ATF approved a Form 1, you should be able to get your $200 back and go back to DM and get a refund.
However... what I think isn't relevant and probably wrong because, it's the ATF.
Although I think it’s total BS especially for the form 1 filers I can’t say I’m that surprised to see this.
I think anyone could see this coming. Not just for this company but others as well.
This is likely a precursor of similar actions surrounding pistol braces
And obviously the only ones who can destroy them are the ones who paid the $200 already. Because technically they can have them. They want the rest turned in so they can see if you converted them
Extremely smart on their part. Get $200, you now destroy the item. We didn’t get $200, you turn in or get your door booted in
I think anyone could see this coming. Not just for this company but others as well.
This is likely a precursor of similar actions surrounding pistol braces
And obviously the only ones who can destroy them are the ones who paid the $200 already. Because technically they can have them. They want the rest turned in so they can see if you converted them
Extremely smart on their part. Get $200, you now destroy the item. We didn’t get $200, you turn in or get your door booted in
That’s why I don’t go the trap/form 1, pistol brace route or any work around shenanigans, I absolutely don’t trust the ATF and expect them to pull BS maneuvers like this.
More so with the current pootus and clowns in power.
I can see the 1st category just saying “ya I seen this coming which is why I never did anything with the trap in the first place”
The 3rd form 1 category is getting tagged in the rear big time. Not to mention they turned in everything from exact location to fingerprints of the owner
The 2nd category is exactly why the ATF is going after this in the first place. They’re not stupid. It’s their job to find this category. This category are the ones shitting bricks and rightfully so
Wonder if the ATF is going after NAPA and send letters to everyone who ever purchased a oil filter.....
Everyone knew full well what the intent of the product was and when literally all you have to do is spin on an oil filter and put a hole through it (which you can do by firing), that’s more than close to a can and we do currently have NFA laws. I used to watch a dude at a gun show sell those things all weekend every show and everyone including myself thought “how TF are those legal”.
These things aren’t like bump stocks and binary triggers, these are a stop at any auto parts store on the way home and you have an illegal silencer. Now if someone did a form 1, then after approval acquired the part to use to manufacture their own can and did so, I don’t see why they shouldn’t be allowed to keep their stuff. You should be able to source parts to build a can if you’re allowed to build cans. I don’t think some dude with a legally registered oil filter suppressor poses much of a threat.
These things aren’t like bump stocks and binary triggers, these are a stop at any auto parts store on the way home and you have an illegal silencer. Now if someone did a form 1, then after approval acquired the part to use to manufacture their own can and did so, I don’t see why they shouldn’t be allowed to keep their stuff. You should be able to source parts to build a can if you’re allowed to build cans. I don’t think some dude with a legally registered oil filter suppressor poses much of a threat.
See, youre doing what the atf doesnt. Thats your main problem
I’m just surprised to find out this wasn’t actually an ATF sponsored and ran entrapment scheme like I assumed it was.
No one with a suppressor "poses much of a threat". These bullshit laws only exist out of pure ignorance.
It's going to be a long road to hoe for the ATF to prove that any/all parts purchased from DM were "silencer parts". The ATF sent out a blanket letter because they can't prove any of it. If the ATF could have made cases they would have agents showing up at every shipping address in DM's customer list. That video was largely click bait.
What's puzzling is why these companies keep records especially when you know that your selling an 99% can blank. He should of had the buyers mail him cash along with a shipping label, then burn the envelope it came in.
There's no such thing as 80% or 99% silencers. It's why the ATF responded to the attorney's questions in the video the way they did. It's sort of hard to prove a stainless steel spacer is only a silencer part, or even in a silencer, for enforcement purposes though.
My guess would be the worry of getting hemmed up on tax evasion. Thats a pretty well worked way the government uses to slam companies and people they otherwise can't prove a case on.
What does everyone think about this being a test case the ATF is trying out?
In other words, they are not worried about confiscating the category 1 and 2 buyers. They aren’t going to give them any promises of immunity from prosecution if they turn their traps/suppressors in.
It’s somewhat easy to scare someone into doing them what you want them to do if they think they’ve broken the law.
The real target are the category 3 buyers who followed the rules. Could it be that they ATF is wanting to see how easy it will be to confiscate legal suppressors?
It helps with their future plans when they see what kind of response or pushback they’ll get from the category 3 buyers. You can pick any number of reasons as the backdrop for that action.
There might be one or more of the category 3 buyers that will mount legal challenges to this latest action.
If the ATF wins this one in court, they will have precedence to go after everyone else on any other class III devices that was duly registered.
On the bump stock issue they’ve been dropping charges in court against the defendants as part of the plea agreements. It’s not working out so good for them with that device.
This could be a test to see what happens more than anything else.
In other words, they are not worried about confiscating the category 1 and 2 buyers. They aren’t going to give them any promises of immunity from prosecution if they turn their traps/suppressors in.
It’s somewhat easy to scare someone into doing them what you want them to do if they think they’ve broken the law.
The real target are the category 3 buyers who followed the rules. Could it be that they ATF is wanting to see how easy it will be to confiscate legal suppressors?
It helps with their future plans when they see what kind of response or pushback they’ll get from the category 3 buyers. You can pick any number of reasons as the backdrop for that action.
There might be one or more of the category 3 buyers that will mount legal challenges to this latest action.
If the ATF wins this one in court, they will have precedence to go after everyone else on any other class III devices that was duly registered.
On the bump stock issue they’ve been dropping charges in court against the defendants as part of the plea agreements. It’s not working out so good for them with that device.
This could be a test to see what happens more than anything else.
Yep, I was in Category 3 and dealt with this over the summer. Had to show evidence of destruction to my local ATF agent and he had it removed from the registry. I'll give the guy credit for being helpful about the process and he was sympathetic to the absurd nature of the whole thing. I'm out a few hundred bucks and the whole thing is frustrating to say the least.
Did they refund your $200 for the tax stamp?
I knew the faith of these “solvent traps” as soon as I saw them…do I think suppressors should be on the NFA? Absolutely not. But for now and I think forever…they will be.
This proves unless you have the machines and skills…acquiring raw suppressor parts are a risk of being reclassified or become classified as unregistered suppressors. Thus unless you can turn complete raw materials into a suppressor all on your own…stay away from these DIY kits…and if you can make a suppressor from 100% raw materials…then you should just get your appropriate license and start manufacturing cans and make a side business…
This proves unless you have the machines and skills…acquiring raw suppressor parts are a risk of being reclassified or become classified as unregistered suppressors. Thus unless you can turn complete raw materials into a suppressor all on your own…stay away from these DIY kits…and if you can make a suppressor from 100% raw materials…then you should just get your appropriate license and start manufacturing cans and make a side business…
This Lawyer seems really good at this.
It seems this whole matter goes to what the ATF is considering “fruit of a poison tree”. They are looking at the intent and manufacture by DM and deeming them ATF parts from the get-go. Everything else downstream is consequence of that. I don’t like it but it makes sense.
Having said that, I don’t see the direct correlation with bumpstocks. Though I do think the bump stocks fiasco has given the ATF license to be more bold in these cases, I would caution against conflating these two issues. I think they stand completely different, legally. In my opinion there was no poison tree in the bump stock fiasco. They just changed their fucking minds, at the request of Trump Jesus.
It seems this whole matter goes to what the ATF is considering “fruit of a poison tree”. They are looking at the intent and manufacture by DM and deeming them ATF parts from the get-go. Everything else downstream is consequence of that. I don’t like it but it makes sense.
Having said that, I don’t see the direct correlation with bumpstocks. Though I do think the bump stocks fiasco has given the ATF license to be more bold in these cases, I would caution against conflating these two issues. I think they stand completely different, legally. In my opinion there was no poison tree in the bump stock fiasco. They just changed their fucking minds, at the request of Trump Jesus.
So they approved something that they say is illegal and can't be made and kept the money? Hmm, I'd want that mailing list to so that every single approved letter could be refunded by them for their obvious "lapse in judgment" in approvals.
It will be interesting if this goes to court. Can the ATF prove DM’s “intent”, needed to deem these suppressors parts. If not, it seems all but catagory 2. would fall to the weigh-side.
The question is, will DM litigate this or simply take a deal thereby leaving the customers holding the bag……
"Baffles" don't you mean filtering system for the solvent ?
And spillage prevention!"Baffles" don't you mean filtering system for the solvent ?
Yep, it was from DM and I think I originally bought the kit from them about 5 years ago on a whim. The "baffles" and "endcaps" were dimpled for drilling which apparently was part of the issue with the ATF.
That’s interesting.
I am not familiar with what exactly people do with “solvent traps”. Is the stated intend simply to catch cleaning supplies like say a soda bottle? How do these “innards” come in to play in that context?
Thanks
Well DM should be “that guy”. Otherwise they are leaving their customers in a lurch. If they “unpoison” that “tree” categories 1 & 3 are safe……
Category 2 are still just morons in violation. If you gonna do something that illegal and stupid at least cover your tracks.
What irks me about this whole situation is there's hundreds if not thousands of people that went through the legal loopholes, just for the AFT to turn around and say "lol nah."
This is sold as a product to wash out your old water bottles to reuse them. This product is being endorsed by the environmentalist to keep plastic water bottles aka silent killers out of our oceans.
Operation Shoot Someone's Kids Over Paperwork is a GO! GO GO GO GO GO!
Of course the ATF monitors the forum.
And can lick my taint after a week in the swamp in August with no shower.
And can lick my taint after a week in the swamp in August with no shower.
I certainly assume the ATF is monitoring this forum. Since I abide by the law, I am not concerned. I also recommend abiding by the law ESPECIALLY with respect to NFA. Hence my term “morons”.
That said, “the law” does seem to be a bit of a moving target. I have never done a form 1 and I can see the logic of the ATF’s “poison tree” here. Though I disagree.
However, it is easy to wonder what exactly would have tipped me off, that these “parts” would be deemed “suppressor parts” and in turn illegal for a form 1. Freakin “dimples”??
It is one thing for the atf to enforce laws. It is quite another for them to being going way out of their way to make criminals of people who are attempting to follow the law, in good faith.
Are there no real criminals left to pursue??
That said, “the law” does seem to be a bit of a moving target. I have never done a form 1 and I can see the logic of the ATF’s “poison tree” here. Though I disagree.
However, it is easy to wonder what exactly would have tipped me off, that these “parts” would be deemed “suppressor parts” and in turn illegal for a form 1. Freakin “dimples”??
It is one thing for the atf to enforce laws. It is quite another for them to being going way out of their way to make criminals of people who are attempting to follow the law, in good faith.
Are there no real criminals left to pursue??
suppressors are completely illegal here, form or not...so when i was flooded by solvent trap ads, i figured it was prolly just attempts to entrap me.
There is a common misunderstanding of how the ATF functions. Many think the ATF is “legislating” or “making laws” without being a legislative body.
They are not.
What they ARE doing, and apparently have the power to do (or at least no legislativs body is stopping them, which is functionally equivalent) is literally REDEFINING words and meanings. This is even MORE dangerous in some ways and fraught with danger. It is entirely arbitrary and unpredictable. If you have absolute power to REDEFINE words and meanings contained in actual laws and legislature at will (in this case, the NFA), you become the sole arbiter of legal definition and how those definitions should be interpreted and applied.
If you pass a law saying marijuana is illegal, and you appoint me as the exclusive administrator and arbiter in enforcement of that law, then I take it upon myself to arbitrarily say any plant with green leaves is now defined as marijuana, you can figure out what happens from there.
This is what the ATF is and does. It doesn’t legislate. It just makes the legislation say whatever it wants it to say.
They are not.
What they ARE doing, and apparently have the power to do (or at least no legislativs body is stopping them, which is functionally equivalent) is literally REDEFINING words and meanings. This is even MORE dangerous in some ways and fraught with danger. It is entirely arbitrary and unpredictable. If you have absolute power to REDEFINE words and meanings contained in actual laws and legislature at will (in this case, the NFA), you become the sole arbiter of legal definition and how those definitions should be interpreted and applied.
If you pass a law saying marijuana is illegal, and you appoint me as the exclusive administrator and arbiter in enforcement of that law, then I take it upon myself to arbitrarily say any plant with green leaves is now defined as marijuana, you can figure out what happens from there.
This is what the ATF is and does. It doesn’t legislate. It just makes the legislation say whatever it wants it to say.
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