The ATF responds to Solvent Traps Made by Diversified Machine

[brazz04]

Two questions.

1. By the Choid/ATF logic, is every formed freeze plug, or machined cone, every tube, and every threaded end cap a silencer part? How much of a billet piece can be machined away before it stops becoming a piece of metal and becomes a silencer part?

2. The DM setup was a kit that included all the parts but was home machined. But when filling out the paperwork, you don’t tell the ATF that DM made my silencer. You tell them the length, and bore of it. Where you get that parts should be irrelevant as long as those parts haven’t been machined. So question 2 is how much of the silencer can come from one company to be considered such a kit. You can order all those parts from a variety of companies to build the silencer, so where is the line?

 

[Choid]

Form

please tell me why owning a 3rd hole jig and a regular AR-15 lower together isn’t a machine gun.

Why do I have to explain that to you? Seriously?

 

[TxWelder35]

Why do I have to explain that to you? Seriously?

Because it’s the same logic why the “storage cups” aren’t suppressor parts.

 

[Choid]

Two questions.

1. By the Choid/ATF logic, is every formed freeze plug, or machined cone, every tube, and every threaded end cap a silencer part? How much of a billet piece can be machined away before it stops becoming a piece of metal and becomes a silencer part?

2. The DM setup was a kit that included all the parts but was home machined. But when filling out the paperwork, you don’t tell the ATF that DM made my silencer. You tell them the length, and bore of it. Where you get that parts should be irrelevant as long as those parts haven’t been machined. So question 2 is how much of the silencer can come from one company to be considered such a kit. You can order all those parts from a variety of companies to build the silencer, so where is the line?

I object to this framing. I don't think those things are necessarily silencers. I just think it is very likely that the ATF is on extremely firm footing by taking this view.

 

[Choid]

Because it’s the same logic why the “storage cups” aren’t suppressor parts.

First, it isn't, because a tool is not a part, and tools aren't listed in the definition, but parts are. Second, agencies are not required to be consistent, much as it would be nice if they were.

 

[TxWelder35]

I object to this framing. I don't think those things are necessarily silencers. I just think it is very likely that the ATF is on extremely firm footing by taking this view.

You are avoiding the meat and potatoes of the argument we are all trying to make. Where is the line in between actually suppressor baffles, and a billet of metal. The only reasonable answer is when it can all be assembled and have a bullet physically pass through it without destroying the assembly, and muffle the sound. None of the products that DM sold could physically ever be used as a suppressor without modification.

 

[TxWelder35]

First, it isn't, because a tool is not a part, and tools aren't listed in the definition, but parts are. Second, agencies are not required to be consistent, much as it would be nice if they were.

an AR-15 lower is a 99% machine gun except for the missing hole.

But it is not a machine gun until the hole is drilled.

storage cups are not suppressor parts until the hole is drilled

 

[Choid]

an AR-15 lower is a 99% machine gun except for the missing hole.

But it is not a machine gun until the hole is drilled.

storage cups are not suppressor parts until the hole is drilled

You seem very convinced by your argument. You should definitely go ahead and test it out in the real world.

 

[TxWelder35]

You seem very convinced by your argument. You should definitely go ahead and test it out in the real world.

I have 2 form 1 suppressors so indeed I have.

Also, until extremely recently, there was never a debate that you couldn’t buy cups without the holes. They were being sold online long before the past year and the ATF never had a problem with it. What you have now is a gov agency that is deliberately trying to crack down on whatever they possibly can because they hate you, me, and any gun owner.

 

[E. Bryant]

The logical conclusion to this argument is to conclude that anyone who files a Form 1 is a criminal because they demonstrated intent.

 

[Choid]

I have 2 form 1 suppressors so indeed I have.

Well, I sincerely hope that you get to keep them, and that next time you are as careful as possible in how you go about making them.

 

[Choid]

The logical conclusion to this argument is to conclude that anyone who files a Form 1 is a criminal because they demonstrated intent.

Correct, which is in keeping with the clause prior to the one you call unclear. It sucks, but it is not an obscure reading.

 

[TxWelder35]

Well, I sincerely hope that you get to keep them, and that next time you are as careful as possible in how you go about making them.

I think the ATF looses this case. There is zero guidance on much of a product can be made before it’s deemed a suppressor part. The ATF cannot demonstrate in a court, putting together anything that DM sold, and making it perform as an actually suppressor.

At what point is a billet of Metal a suppressor part? Is a cone shape too much? How about a hollowed out cone?

 

[KZP]

I hear they make great BBQ sauce holders for dipping. The sauce pools into the center, making it easy to get every last drop. Stacks for easier storage too!

 

[Choid]

 

[TxWelder35]

Ahh there’s your problem. Damn French always surrendering at the first possible opportunity!

 

[candyx]

Actually I'm using it as a catalytic converter to capture the carbon, I'm sure AOC would want me to be required to have one.Is the ATF against the Green New Deal ?

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Theres a bunch of conpanies out there doing the exact same thing. Something must have set them apart.

 

[TxWelder35]

Theres a bunch of conpanies out there doing the exact same thing. Something must have set them apart.

I believe there was a dimple in the center that they done like

 

[KZP]

I believe there was a dimple in the center that they done like

Those are to keep the little umbrella perfectly centered. Common sense is so dead these days.

 

[Longshot231]

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

Maybe they should have moved to a gun friendly state. I imagine the same would happen to a company like that operating in NY or California.

Meanwhile in the free state of Texas.

Shrimp Gang Designs LLC

shrimpgangdesigns.com

 

[2aBaC̶a̶]

category 2 guys who are worried about conplying can just cut holes in the side of each chamber and turn it into a giant fugly brake looking thing.

 

[Concrete shooter]

category 2 guys who are worried about conplying can just cut holes in the side of each chamber and turn it into a giant fugly brake looking thing.

Just turn it into a bong and get a weed card from an online doctor or is maybe that's another example of contradictory law? Legal in my state with a med card but still illegal at the federal level.

 

[The King]

I was gonna buy one to make a flesh light that my cock didn’t blow out on the first stroke.

My dreams are ruined now.

 

[longtines]

I don't want to derail the thread, but wanted to ask if you guys have ever seriously dealt with OSHA, DOL, EPA, CMS? This is the way they all operate. If they treat it as a civil matter, and put you out of compliance, you have to admit or confess whatever they say you did wrong or they won't put you back in compliance.

[back to your regular show - I'm enoying the thread, having 3 legal suppressors myself]

 

[AMGtuned]

I believe there was a dimple in the center that they done like

This indictment is way further than dimpled cups. I stated that long ago.

They have conversations and videos of a guy modifying DM parts, and talking to the owner about what works best for use in a suppressor. No good.

It also sounds as though they have proof of conversations regarding individuals contacting DM via "discreet order", and potentially obtaining complete suppressors.

There were also 2 illegal sbr charges involved.

This story is deeper than the Washington Gun Law video. That guy just asked for clarification on things he shouldn't have; and thats what everyone needs to be worried about.

Quietbore might as well be entrapment; if we're talking about actual law, with set precedent. They got their peepee slapped for selling some "kits" (there's that nasty term again) that were too close to a silencer. But SOMEHOW aft granted them permission to still sell these "kits" if you provide them with your F1. Doesnt that more than prove intent? Yes, but you have the approved F1, so the king knew you were doing so. QB, on the other hand, is then doing EXACTLY what this whole thread is about; and selling silencer parts without a proper license, or requiring a F3/F4 transfer of their parts.

The monocore stuff (Cratus and the 22 kit) that has their panties in a bunch, were, IMO, way over the legal line for such an item. One of the videos they have, consists of an individual modifying a storage cup into a baffle, and discussing his modification and outcome with the manufacturer.

I'm gonna a say this again, because it keeps getting missed: just as we are supposed to take the law how it's written, these charges are written to include a precedent for EVERYTHING sold at DM.

Here's where you anti-F1, and "jUsT bUy a F4" guys need to pay attention: muzzle brakes and thread adapters were sold by DM; "adapters" are what they're being called in the paperwork. If we use Choads logic, all the fancy brakes and adapters out there, are 100% illegal. Period. No way around it. All those Bravos, cherry bombs, plan a/b, DA flash hider, caliber specific end caps from SiCo, Area 419, Keymo, it just keeps going, and I think you know where.

I received a letter, but I DID NOT break any laws. Over and above that, I followed the unconstitutional taxation laws, and received the kings permission to build my cans, BEFORE I built them. For the record; I did not buy a tube, end cap, storage cup, or kit, from DM (which reminds me, spacers were on that list too ). There was a significant amount of work involved in the making of my cans, and I'm very proud of the outcome. Like the guys that never thought they could ring it at 1k, I wasn't sure I possess the skill level needed to complete such a task.

Back to the topic: the tea went in the harbor over less, and Choid, your FED is showing

 

[mewillis]

Lots of great commentary on the subject posted here but again, unless someone with deep pockets challenges this and the other overreaching lawlessness from the AFT this will continue to be a problem. Hell next time everything in the hardware store will be considered an NFA controlled "part" And just out of curiosity is the Washington Law guy defending anybody or just giving advice or commentary on this subject?

 

[Choid]

This indictment is way further than dimpled cups. I stated that long ago.

They have conversations and videos of a guy modifying DM parts, and talking to the owner about what works best for use in a suppressor. No good.

It also sounds as though they have proof of conversations regarding individuals contacting DM via "discreet order", and potentially obtaining complete suppressors.

There were also 2 illegal sbr charges involved.

This story is deeper than the Washington Gun Law video. That guy just asked for clarification on things he shouldn't have; and thats what everyone needs to be worried about.

Quietbore might as well be entrapment; if we're talking about actual law, with set precedent. They got their peepee slapped for selling some "kits" (there's that nasty term again) that were too close to a silencer. But SOMEHOW aft granted them permission to still sell these "kits" if you provide them with your F1. Doesnt that more than prove intent? Yes, but you have the approved F1, so the king knew you were doing so. QB, on the other hand, is then doing EXACTLY what this whole thread is about; and selling silencer parts without a proper license, or requiring a F3/F4 transfer of their parts.

The monocore stuff (Cratus and the 22 kit) that has their panties in a bunch, were, IMO, way over the legal line for such an item. One of the videos they have, consists of an individual modifying a storage cup into a baffle, and discussing his modification and outcome with the manufacturer.

I'm gonna a say this again, because it keeps getting missed: just as we are supposed to take the law how it's written, these charges are written to include a precedent for EVERYTHING sold at DM.

Here's where you anti-F1, and "jUsT bUy a F4" guys need to pay attention: muzzle brakes and thread adapters were sold by DM; "adapters" are what they're being called in the paperwork. If we use Choads logic, all the fancy brakes and adapters out there, are 100% illegal. Period. No way around it. All those Bravos, cherry bombs, plan a/b, DA flash hider, caliber specific end caps from SiCo, Area 419, Keymo, it just keeps going, and I think you know where.

I received a letter, but I DID NOT break any laws. Over and above that, I followed the unconstitutional taxation laws, and received the kings permission to build my cans, BEFORE I built them. For the record; I did not buy a tube, end cap, storage cup, or kit, from DM (which reminds me, spacers were on that list too ). There was a significant amount of work involved in the making of my cans, and I'm very proud of the outcome. Like the guys that never thought they could ring it at 1k, I wasn't sure I possess the skill level needed to complete such a task.

Back to the topic: the tea went in the harbor over less, and Choid, your FED is showing

That's quite a rant, but what this really comes down to is your logic says that submitting a form 1 entitles you to buy prefabricated suppressor parts in order to build your suppressor, and my logic, and the law, make it clear that when it comes to purchasing suppressor parts, you are not entitled to do so unless you have an SOT or a form 4. I can understand why people thought it would be OK, and I think it should be OK, but reading the text, it is clearly not OK. Technically, the sale is not OK.

I have no idea how that makes me a fed, or anything else. And it doesn't have any application to muzzle brakes. I do wonder if, at some point, end caps will be seen as problematic in the same way that obtaining additional baffles for your can are now (I've had to do that, and it is a huge pain that includes proof and affadavits.) Maybe it is because of the latter experience that I am not surprised that baffles count as suppressors.

I am also not naive enough to think that baffles with holes premarked but not predrilled are really going to be accepted as BBQ sauce containers. Perhaps that is because I have dealt with, and employed, lawyers for decades. As somebody who has, I will just leave you with this. Treating this like it is a loophole in the law is a mistake. Loopholes are things that are generally intentionally left by politicians for certain groups to exploit, and politicians to bitch about for future election. This is attempting to use language to make a law say other than it does, and that is more likely to attract people without lawyers who are tricked into doing something stupid.

 

[TxWelder35]

That's quite a rant, but what this really comes down to is your logic says that submitting a form 1 entitles you to buy prefabricated suppressor parts in order to build your suppressor, and my logic, and the law, make it clear that when it comes to purchasing suppressor parts, you are not entitled to do so unless you have an SOT or a form 4. I can understand why people thought it would be OK, and I think it should be OK, but reading the text, it is clearly not OK. Technically, the sale is not OK.

I have no idea how that makes me a fed, or anything else. And it doesn't have any application to muzzle brakes. I do wonder if, at some point, end caps will be seen as problematic in the same way that obtaining additional baffles for your can are now (I've had to do that, and it is a huge pain that includes proof and affadavits.) Maybe it is because of the latter experience that I am not surprised that baffles count as suppressors.

I am also not naive enough to think that baffles with holes premarked but not predrilled are really going to be accepted as BBQ sauce containers. Perhaps that is because I have dealt with, and employed, lawyers for decades.

I’m not sure how you keep missing the steak and potatoes and keep focusing on the sauce.

New info from post above indicates this is less about unfabricated parts and more about the owner who stepped wayyy over the line in other ways.

You still have not indicated what would be considered a suppressor part and what would be considered a piece of billet metal.

My predictions for this by and large except for a few local instances where a field office loves to step on the neck of the serfs,

-everyone who filed a form 1 gets to keep their toys

-everyone who did not gets a nice visit from the badge bois wanting to see the purchased product and most likely gets them taken away.

-if any of you morons made suppressors without paperwork id be turning it into the worlds ugliest muzzle break because if you tell them it’s at the bottom of the lake I wouldn’t be surprised if they end up looking through all your sock drawers for it against your will.

 

[Choid]

I’m not sure how you keep missing the steak and potatoes and keep focusing on the sauce.

New info from post above indicates this is less about unfabricated parts and more about the owner who stepped wayyy over the line in other ways.

You still have not indicated what would be considered a suppressor part and what would be considered a piece of billet metal.

My predictions for this by and large except for a few local instances where a field office loves to step on the neck of the serfs,

-everyone who filed a form 1 gets to keep their toys

-everyone who did not gets a nice visit from the badge bois wanting to see the purchased product and most likely gets them taken away.

-if any of you morons made suppressors without paperwork id be turning it into the worlds ugliest muzzle break because if you tell them it’s at the bottom of the lake I wouldn’t be surprised if they end up looking through all your sock drawers for it against your will.

Because the "steak and potatoes" of the argument doesn't have any merit. It is a backfill argument from people who bought these prefab parts, and form one'd them thinking they were doing the right thing without having knowledge of what the law said, and then trying to make up and demand standards to justify what they did.

The definition in the law is quite obviously meant to say that you cannot sell suppressors or suppresor kits (parts meant to go together to make a suppressor,) so the view that suppressor kits are suppressor kits is not exactly an expansion of the text. It is a plain reading of it. Calling a suppressor kit a solvent trap kit is not a way around.

I actually agree with your guess as to what will happen, but that is because you acted in ignorant good faith, which will count for something as the ATF, despite what people believe, doesn't spend most of their time trying to get people on technicalities or make themselves as unpopular as possible.

Unlike you I have no skin in this game. I buy my suppressors in an obviously legal fashion. My only interest is that people here don't get themselves in trouble by thinking they are outsmarting the system when they are really bending over for it.

 

[AMGtuned]

That's quite a rant, but what this really comes down to is your logic says that submitting a form 1 entitles you to buy prefabricated suppressor parts in order to build your suppressor, and my logic, and the law, make it clear that when it comes to purchasing suppressor parts, you are not entitled to do so unless you have an SOT or a form 4. I can understand why people thought it would be OK, and I think it should be OK, but reading the text, it is clearly not OK. Technically, the sale is not OK.

I have no idea how that makes me a fed, or anything else. And it doesn't have any application to muzzle brakes. I do wonder if, at some point, end caps will be seen as problematic in the same way that obtaining additional baffles for your can are now (I've had to do that, and it is a huge pain that includes proof and affadavits.) Maybe it is because of the latter experience that I am not surprised that baffles count as suppressors.

I am also not naive enough to think that baffles with holes premarked but not predrilled are really going to be accepted as BBQ sauce containers. Perhaps that is because I have dealt with, and employed, lawyers for decades. As somebody who has, I will just leave you with this. Treating this like it is a loophole in the law is a mistake. Loopholes are things that are generally intentionally left by politicians for certain groups to exploit, and politicians to bitch about for future election. This is attempting to use language to make a law say other than it does, and that is more likely to attract people without lawyers who are tricked into doing something stupid.

You're correct, I did rant a little there.

However, my logic did not point to someone being able to buy "suppressor parts" with approved F1. The parts in question were not "suppressor parts". Im fully aware of what my F1's "allow" me to do, as a "maker". The sale would only not be ok, IF the company was selling "suppressor parts", as im fully aware that one needs a 02/07/SOT to make and sell such a device. And that those devices would need to be transferred via F3/F4 legally.

And this does have something, if not everything, to do with muzzle brakes. As I stated, DM sold brakes and the adapters that fit them, in order to adapt them to your existing can.

I'll say it again: IF DM's parts are classified as "suppressor parts"; that will set precedent for brakes and adapters, used in suppressors and suppressor assembly, to be illegal and require F3/F4 transfer. That recore would be the easiest thing you've dealt with in this manner, at that point.

As you've said, the WRITTEN law is clear; but depending how one INTERPRETS that written law, there are parts being sold for decades before DM and solvent traps, that would be totally illegal.

All of this hinges on SOMEONES interpretation of that law. Just like the Rare Breed/WOT case; aft doesn't want it to go beyond civil court, because then they will have to see the evidence that they're wrong. If they stack it up in civil court and get a plea, well, now they have a case to reference. If it goes to criminal trial, ALL the evidence will be revealed to, and reviewed by, a judge and jury. The law is written technical enough, that a day in criminal court would not go well for aft.

I suggested your fed status, because you have made it clear which side of freedom and overreach that you are on. You can't say, "read the law", but then defend it when its applied AS WRITTEN.

 

[Longshot231]

 

[AMGtuned]

Unlike you I have no skin in this game. I buy my suppressors in an obviously legal fashion. My only interest is that people here don't get themselves in trouble by thinking they are outsmarting the system when they are really bending over for it.

How do you mount those suppressors of yours? Did they all come with a direct thread proximal end, welded in place?

Whats your thought on the ones that received this letter for buying a muzzle brake? How about spacers (sections of cut metal tubing)?

And fuck you for suggesting that anything other than the way YOU bought your cans, is illegal. F1 is, and has been, totally legal. I will agree, selling suppressor parts without a license, or suppressors without a license, is ILLEGAL

 

[Choid]

How do you mount those suppressors of yours? Did they all come with a direct thread proximal end, welded in place?

Whats your thought on the ones that received this letter for buying a muzzle brake? How about spacers (sections of cut metal tubing)?

And fuck you for suggesting that anything other than the way YOU bought your cans, is illegal. F1 is, and has been, totally legal. I will agree, selling suppressor parts without a license, or suppressors without a license, is ILLEGAL

First, I didn't suggest that other ways of buying cans are illegal. That is why my post says "obviously" legal, not simply legal. Obviously is the modifier that shows my meaning.

Second, the reason I don't bother to mention brakes is that they actually exist in many places in law as a separate concept, so there really isn't anything vague about them at all. I did mention that I am surprised they are totally cool with multiple endcaps and mounting systems, when they could make it a big pain in the ass, but I have also mentioned, over and over, that there is no particular requirement for consistency. It would be nice, but not going after one thing does not mean they cannot go after something else. For example, no longer prosecuting federal marijuana violations is not a reason cocaine dealers should assume they are off the hook.

Look, I am just giving people the advice here I would give to a friend, which happens to be the same advice the lawyer in the video said he gave to people when he looked at it. I am not calling you a crook or saying you don't deserve your suppressor. I am saying that I'd personally be much more careful than you, and suggest the same of others.

 

[CoryT]

The issue comes down to intent, These bits of metal are, in the eyes of the powers that be, clearly intended for the use in a suppressor and not anything else. So, they are classified as suppressor parts, even if they are not completed. Getting someone else to build your parts requires a variance from ATF, not a Form 1.

Can a muzzle break be a suppressor part? Unless it's sole use in as part of a suppressor the answer should be no. End caps on the other hand are certainly suppressor parts.

Expecting an agency to be logical and consistent is just not realistic, because, people. As an example I use in class, what is the part on a Maxim gun that is serial numbered and registered as a machine gun? The answer is the right sideplate. Why? Because reasons. Now, for extra credit, what's the difference between the right and left sideplate? If you said, the side of the plate the cam is riveted to, you are correct. So, if you remove the cam and move it to the other side of the plate, you just manufactured a new machinegun. If you leave the cam off, you are in limbo. Is the plate a left side or right side? If I sell you a full parts kit with two plates and two separate cams, is that a machinegun?

Making laws that regulate the possession of complex mechanical items is really, really, really hard to do. It verges on insane when that mere possession has exactly zero effect on other people.

 

[rlsmith1]

The only good news about all this is the more blatant these agencies become, the more people pay attention. The number of comments on YT videos supporting the abolishment of the NFA has grown exponentially in the last 5 yrs. People are thinking which is a good thing.

@Choid your arguments piss me off because they line up with the way things are being handled. You’ve got a sly way of doing that and never stating you agree with the premise so thanks for making people think.

I’d never considered those solvent trap cups for sauce cups either. Next fondu night I’ll have to try that! @KZP have you found stainless or titanium to leave less metallic taste in your mouth?

 

[Choid]

The only good news about all this is the more blatant these agencies become, the more people pay attention. The number of comments on YT videos supporting the abolishment of the NFA has grown exponentially in the last 5 yrs. People are thinking which is a good thing.

@Choid your arguments piss me off because they line up with the way things are being handled. You’ve got a sly way of doing that and never stating you agree with the premise so thanks for making people think.

I’d never considered those solvent trap cups for sauce cups either. Next fondu night I’ll have to try that! @KZP have you found stainless or titanium to leave less metallic taste in your mouth?

I've stated a number of times I don't agree with it and I frankly don't agree with any gun laws, but I do think there is value in people understanding the way things actually work and then they can decide the level of risk they want to take. So thanks, I think.

I think Cory explains the whole situation very well. It's a case of the world being as it is, and not how we want it to be.

 

[fdkay]

Can I legally source the parts and make my own SBR, as long as I submit the proper paperwork?

 

[KZP]

The only good news about all this is the more blatant these agencies become, the more people pay attention. The number of comments on YT videos supporting the abolishment of the NFA has grown exponentially in the last 5 yrs. People are thinking which is a good thing.

@Choid your arguments piss me off because they line up with the way things are being handled. You’ve got a sly way of doing that and never stating you agree with the premise so thanks for making people think.

I’d never considered those solvent trap cups for sauce cups either. Next fondu night I’ll have to try that! @KZP have you found stainless or titanium to leave less metallic taste in your mouth?

Neither has an odd flavor if properly cleaned. Stainless is less likely to be knocked over on a table due to the weight, keeping your sauce safe. I prefer stainless in concept.

 

[Choid]

Can I legally source the parts and make my own SBR, as long as I submit the proper paperwork?

Yes, you can, and the definition of an SBR makes that very clear. It is completely different from the suppressor definition.

(8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

It makes no indication that parts of an SBR are considered an SBR.

 

[CoryT]

Can I legally source the parts and make my own SBR, as long as I submit the proper paperwork?

Certainly, that's what a Form 1 is for, but you need the form approved BEFORE you get/cut the barrel.

There's another oddity in the making of an NFA firearm. I can sell you a short rifle barrel, like a 10.5" AR barrel. You use it to make an SBR. Why is that not the same as buying a bunch of baffles and making a suppressor? Because reasons.

Pretty much the entirety of US firearms law is an incoherent, illogical and irrelevant mess.

Take background checks just as an example. If we KNOW this guy is so dangerous to society that he cannot be allowed to have a firearm, why is he walking around loose? Even if he is a convicted felon, we apparently released him into the world.

 

[fdkay]

Yes, you can, and the definition of an SBR makes that very clear. It is completely different from the suppressor definition.

(8) The term “short-barreled rifle” means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.

It makes no indication that parts of an SBR are considered an SBR.

I can order, and have shipped to my house, a 9 inch 300 blk barrel.
If I have a complete lower, an unassembled upper, a short barrel along with all the other bits and bobs, according to that logic, I possess a short barreled rifle.
If you recall, Thompson Center was in the center of a legal controversy years ago, because their contender pistol barrels could be attached to the rifle actions.
Constructive possession of an SBR.

Florida Man Arrested for Constructive Possession of an SBR

I have recently blogged about the issue of constructive possession of NFA firearms in my article NFA and Constructive Possession: Myth or Reality?. On August 27, 2009, Jesus Amador, Jr., was arrest…

blog.princelaw.com

Is there any news on if this affects the companies that don't ship the parts until the form one is in the buyers possession?

 

[Ridge_Walker]

After several phone calls I was able to get in contact with an agent (whom I won't identify) at a field office ( that I won't disclose) who is handling key parts of this situation. I have interacted with the ATF many times and as usual, the low level/street level guys are easy to talk to and are very receptive. This agent was no different.

We spoke at length about this whole cluster fuck. On the record, he told me exactly what they first video above stated. Off the record however, he was very sympathetic to the situation was understood how bad this looks. I told him that they already unfavorable ATF is rapidly going down the same road as the FBI did and that making criminals out of law abiding citizens was very corrosive to the agency and the country. Soon, no one will trust or cooperate with them and their job will become much more dangerous. He agreed completely, off the record of course. He said the every agent in his office and even up to the division level is against this but all they can do relay their concerns up the chain of command. He said this is solely being driven by the highest brass and the lawyers at the top.

In addition, the agent also told me that he alone has fielded many phone calls from attorneys that are representing numerous clients, as many as 30, against this massive over reach. His off the record advise was to wait and see where this thing goes. I personally believe it will end up in court sooner that later and the ATF will lose yet again.

CM

His off the record advise was to wait and see where this thing goes. I personally believe it will end up in court sooner that later and the ATF will lose yet again.

For class 3 folks? Maybe. Class 2 folks? Nope. Class 1 to me is ify regarding out come.

I am in class Zero. My brain flashed 'Danger! Will Robinson Danger!' I don't trust anything from a 3 letter. My instinct is with them, is to stay well back from the line. Always.

 

[CoryT]

I can order, and have shipped to my house, a 9 inch 300 blk barrel.
If I have a complete lower, an unassembled upper, a short barrel along with all the other bits and bobs, according to that logic, I possess a short barreled rifle.
If you recall, Thompson Center was in the center of a legal controversy years ago, because their contender pistol barrels could be attached to the rifle actions.
Constructive possession of an SBR.

Florida Man Arrested for Constructive Possession of an SBR

I have recently blogged about the issue of constructive possession of NFA firearms in my article NFA and Constructive Possession: Myth or Reality?. On August 27, 2009, Jesus Amador, Jr., was arrest…

blog.princelaw.com

Is there any news on if this affects the companies that don't ship the parts until the form one is in the buyers possession?

If you have a complete Form 1, or any other registered firearms on which the part will fit, you are OK. You can own 10 basic AR-15's, and have as many short barrel uppers as you like, if at least one AR is registered. If you possess the barrel and a receiver, without any registration paperwork, they can file a charge for an unregistered NFA firearm, even if you have no upper receiver or bolt. This applies even if the receiver and barrel are in different locations, like the barrel is at your vacation home in FL and you live in MT and the receiver is there. Can they win at trial? Do you want to find out via personal experience?

 

[Choid]

Constructive intent is the ultimate stretching of their powers. I don't think they have any leg to stand on with it, but if they want, they certainly have cheaper access to lawyers than any of us does.

 

[CoryT]

Constructive intent is the ultimate stretching of their powers. I don't think they have any leg to stand on with it, but if they want, they certainly have cheaper access to lawyers than any of us does.

Agreed, owning a hacksaw and a shotgun does not make an SBS. Knowing my intent requires you to look inside my mind, and as yet no one can do that. Absent some written documentation like "Note to self, remember to cut that barrel down before Tuesday" it's a pretty big stretch.

 

[fdkay]

I own a lathe. I own a couple of old kel light flashlights and some round stock.
According to the ATF I have all of the parts required to assemble a suppressor

 

[Choid]

I own a lathe. I own a couple of old kel light flashlights and some round stock.
According to the ATF I have all of the parts required to assemble a suppressor

The ATF is fine with that because you would be the one repurposing those parts into a suppressor with a f1. That's literally the difference.

 

[fdkay]

The ATF is fine with that because you would be the one repurposing those parts into a suppressor with a f1. That's literally the difference.

That's nearly the same fucking thing.
They seem to choose to define things however they see fit.