Iam looking for a pic of who thinks they have the best .308 set up for an all around good hunting/sniper set up.
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the best .308 set up?
- Thread starter therealsquid
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Re: the best .308 set up?
my sps tactical does everythign that i need it to and does it pretty accurately and reasonably priced
my sps tactical does everythign that i need it to and does it pretty accurately and reasonably priced
Re: the best .308 set up?
Would you reccomend a .308 or .300 for longer range hunting. I know that a .300 will lose more meat but will drop the animal quicker at longer distances as well as have more recoil. what are some opinions and set ups?
Would you reccomend a .308 or .300 for longer range hunting. I know that a .300 will lose more meat but will drop the animal quicker at longer distances as well as have more recoil. what are some opinions and set ups?
Re: the best .308 set up?
Define Long Range.
For true long range hunting a 300WM is the obvious choice.
Define Long Range.
For true long range hunting a 300WM is the obvious choice.
Re: the best .308 set up?
^^^^^^^^
plus 1, if you are hunting with in say 500 yards id go with the 308, i dont think that you are probably good enough to start killing game out to 1K. But if you are the 300 WM is a great choice
308- low recoil, vast amount of information on handloads, good barrel life
300 WM- more recoil, good amount of load info, burns up the barrel faster with hotter loads. Expensive ass factory loads
if this is a first precision rifle, go with the 308 and get your skills down and then if you feel the need step up to the larger calibers
^^^^^^^^
plus 1, if you are hunting with in say 500 yards id go with the 308, i dont think that you are probably good enough to start killing game out to 1K. But if you are the 300 WM is a great choice
308- low recoil, vast amount of information on handloads, good barrel life
300 WM- more recoil, good amount of load info, burns up the barrel faster with hotter loads. Expensive ass factory loads
if this is a first precision rifle, go with the 308 and get your skills down and then if you feel the need step up to the larger calibers
Re: the best .308 set up?
If you are going to be ethical, 308 makes more sense unless you are pretty accoplished at LR precision. Price of ammo and barrel life. Big difference.
I am in the process of acquiring a 338 Lapua mag for LR hunting. I expect I will be on my second barrel by the time I feel sufficiently proficient to take an Elk at LR.
If you are going to be ethical, 308 makes more sense unless you are pretty accoplished at LR precision. Price of ammo and barrel life. Big difference.
I am in the process of acquiring a 338 Lapua mag for LR hunting. I expect I will be on my second barrel by the time I feel sufficiently proficient to take an Elk at LR.
Re: the best .308 set up?
This is almost like ford vs chevy. It comes down to what you want the rifle to do!! There is plenty of shooters who have both, myself included. 308 will go 1000k and so will the 300WM. 700P in both calibers are available and are a good entry level rifle. What the 308 loses in long range killing power isnt all that much. But you have to remember the 300 has more recoil and uses alot more powder if you reload. You can always split the difference and go with a 30-06, and have the best of both worlds. Pick up a used 700 long action add a match barrel and drop it onto a 700p stock or Mcm and go have fun. I did that with an old 25-06 I had and have no regreats
This is almost like ford vs chevy. It comes down to what you want the rifle to do!! There is plenty of shooters who have both, myself included. 308 will go 1000k and so will the 300WM. 700P in both calibers are available and are a good entry level rifle. What the 308 loses in long range killing power isnt all that much. But you have to remember the 300 has more recoil and uses alot more powder if you reload. You can always split the difference and go with a 30-06, and have the best of both worlds. Pick up a used 700 long action add a match barrel and drop it onto a 700p stock or Mcm and go have fun. I did that with an old 25-06 I had and have no regreats
Re: the best .308 set up?
What ever you decide, think about practice, practice, practice. A .308 is a lot more comfortable to practice with in both position and off the bench. If you are not used to a big banger, and only pull it out in deer season; it's real easy for your skills to head south. .308 for anything from 10 to 300 yards gets my vote.
What ever you decide, think about practice, practice, practice. A .308 is a lot more comfortable to practice with in both position and off the bench. If you are not used to a big banger, and only pull it out in deer season; it's real easy for your skills to head south. .308 for anything from 10 to 300 yards gets my vote.
Re: the best .308 set up?
I would rather hunt with gun that won't kill ears!
Guess that leaves magnums out.
.308 will hit little target @ 1150.
Still more power than a long bow!
I would rather hunt with gun that won't kill ears!
Guess that leaves magnums out.
.308 will hit little target @ 1150.
Still more power than a long bow!
Re: the best .308 set up?
I think that a hunting rifle would need to be lightweight and compact and not necessarily super-accurate, whereas a sniper rifle would need to be big and heavy and as accurate as possible.
A single rifle that might satisfy these requirements, I would say, is a Steyr Scout in .308 with a scout scope and regular scope, both with quick-detach rings so you could switch them depending on how you were going to use it. It's got a fluted barrel for weight, a full picatinny rail for the scout or regular scope setup, a built-in canting bipod for sniping prone, extra mag storage in the stock, etc. Plus they're quite accurate as well.
I think that a hunting rifle would need to be lightweight and compact and not necessarily super-accurate, whereas a sniper rifle would need to be big and heavy and as accurate as possible.
A single rifle that might satisfy these requirements, I would say, is a Steyr Scout in .308 with a scout scope and regular scope, both with quick-detach rings so you could switch them depending on how you were going to use it. It's got a fluted barrel for weight, a full picatinny rail for the scout or regular scope setup, a built-in canting bipod for sniping prone, extra mag storage in the stock, etc. Plus they're quite accurate as well.
Re: the best .308 set up?
I endorse a heavy-barreled AR-10 (T) as a Best .308 rifle.
Better than sniper/tactical rigged bolt rifle, better than Jeff Cooper's Steyr scout rifle. Bolt rifles are quality items and rugged. I've owned a Steyr Pro M in the 80s and took deer with it, a .30-06; nice but...
Scout scope is not worthwhile, unless it is all you have. Scout rig is all built to Cooper's spec and he simply did not live long enough or was in poor health when the AR-10 was returned to the civilian lineup. He talks ad nauseum about "riflery" in To Ride, Shoot Straight and Tell The Truth, which I read regularly; never did read his On Rifles or whatever his rifle manifesto was called.
AR-10 has all his carbine could ever offer, but has built-in picatinny rail, easy gunsmithing, superb Geiselle trigger, up to a 25rd magazine, and more options for scopes, sights, and barrels than any other .308 semi platform. Much better than M1a which back then he felt had best trigger potential.
AR-10 will compete at the range with any tactical .308win bolt rifle. There is no effective velocity loss due to gas cycling, but there is less felt recoil.
10, 20, or 25rds available and overall length of about 37 - 42" makes the AR more able to engage multiple targets. Load your rifle with 180gr premium bullets if you want to hunt with it.
If you just want a bolt, or are on a budget for your "best" rifle; I'd go with a Winchester 70 action, custom barrel, H-S Precision or better custom stock, and probably Jeff's CS Precision bottom system for AICS magazines, with Near Mfg picatinny base.
I endorse a heavy-barreled AR-10 (T) as a Best .308 rifle.
Better than sniper/tactical rigged bolt rifle, better than Jeff Cooper's Steyr scout rifle. Bolt rifles are quality items and rugged. I've owned a Steyr Pro M in the 80s and took deer with it, a .30-06; nice but...
Scout scope is not worthwhile, unless it is all you have. Scout rig is all built to Cooper's spec and he simply did not live long enough or was in poor health when the AR-10 was returned to the civilian lineup. He talks ad nauseum about "riflery" in To Ride, Shoot Straight and Tell The Truth, which I read regularly; never did read his On Rifles or whatever his rifle manifesto was called.
AR-10 has all his carbine could ever offer, but has built-in picatinny rail, easy gunsmithing, superb Geiselle trigger, up to a 25rd magazine, and more options for scopes, sights, and barrels than any other .308 semi platform. Much better than M1a which back then he felt had best trigger potential.
AR-10 will compete at the range with any tactical .308win bolt rifle. There is no effective velocity loss due to gas cycling, but there is less felt recoil.
10, 20, or 25rds available and overall length of about 37 - 42" makes the AR more able to engage multiple targets. Load your rifle with 180gr premium bullets if you want to hunt with it.
If you just want a bolt, or are on a budget for your "best" rifle; I'd go with a Winchester 70 action, custom barrel, H-S Precision or better custom stock, and probably Jeff's CS Precision bottom system for AICS magazines, with Near Mfg picatinny base.
Re: the best .308 set up?
Glad I stummbled on this thread, cause I've been thinking the same thing. I like the .300WM but theres not much long distance hunting in southern California.
As for sporting and possably shooting compatitions, I'm thinking the .308 would be better.
I'm still gathering infromation befor I commit big money to a new rifle.
Glad I stummbled on this thread, cause I've been thinking the same thing. I like the .300WM but theres not much long distance hunting in southern California.
As for sporting and possably shooting compatitions, I'm thinking the .308 would be better.
I'm still gathering infromation befor I commit big money to a new rifle.
Re: the best .308 set up?
If you are killing deer at 800 yds you are probbably shooting past a lot of them to get to the one farther away. Sorry but I hunt with a bow - walk closer. If you have a tactical need to make a shot that saves lives and the enemy was at 1000 yds the 300 WM would have an advantage if we were talking 800 yds there would be less of a difference but it depends on bullet weight because you can hand load 190 SMK into a .308 with an 11.25 twist barrel and get to a thousand with a reasonable amount of accuracy if the gun and shooter are up to the task. The down side of the 300 WM is one with a tight chamber like the GAPrecision rifles cut with the same chamnber reamer as the Seal Teams use will not shoot anything but virgin brass. Thirty bucks a bag of brass you only get to use once is enough to make you go out and buy a second 300 WM to shoot the reloads. .308 will have less recoil and be more user friendly and more fun to reload. If you are really considering long range hunting you need to look at how much energy the bullet will have at a specific distance and compare that to the size and type of game - once you do that you will conclude that 300WM is not nearly as acceptable as a 338 Win Mag or possibly a .375 H&H but the .338 WM hunting cartridge is smoked by .338 Lapua so how bad do you want to get there and do you really have a true tactical need or do you have a hunting need because they are different builds and nobody likes carrying a 16 pound rifle up and down mountains when a 30-06 Tikka with a 6x42 FX3 Leupold with long range duplex will handle the 200 to 400 yd hunting shots.
If you are killing deer at 800 yds you are probbably shooting past a lot of them to get to the one farther away. Sorry but I hunt with a bow - walk closer. If you have a tactical need to make a shot that saves lives and the enemy was at 1000 yds the 300 WM would have an advantage if we were talking 800 yds there would be less of a difference but it depends on bullet weight because you can hand load 190 SMK into a .308 with an 11.25 twist barrel and get to a thousand with a reasonable amount of accuracy if the gun and shooter are up to the task. The down side of the 300 WM is one with a tight chamber like the GAPrecision rifles cut with the same chamnber reamer as the Seal Teams use will not shoot anything but virgin brass. Thirty bucks a bag of brass you only get to use once is enough to make you go out and buy a second 300 WM to shoot the reloads. .308 will have less recoil and be more user friendly and more fun to reload. If you are really considering long range hunting you need to look at how much energy the bullet will have at a specific distance and compare that to the size and type of game - once you do that you will conclude that 300WM is not nearly as acceptable as a 338 Win Mag or possibly a .375 H&H but the .338 WM hunting cartridge is smoked by .338 Lapua so how bad do you want to get there and do you really have a true tactical need or do you have a hunting need because they are different builds and nobody likes carrying a 16 pound rifle up and down mountains when a 30-06 Tikka with a 6x42 FX3 Leupold with long range duplex will handle the 200 to 400 yd hunting shots.
Re: the best .308 set up?
I think there's something of a paradox involved when considering hunting and the current evolution of Tactical rifles. The first favors a lighter weight setup, the latter is currently patterned on higher mass and barrel weight.
Personally, I would have some preferences for a tactical setup that more resembles a hunter; and that was at least partly where the two were originally, before tactical rifles began to emulate match oriented rifles. It's hard to do, though, while preserving the accuracy the newer tacitical rifles have come to enjoy.
For the last few years there's been a 'have your cake and eat it' option that I believe has enjoyed far less than its fair share of attention.
It's this. The component allows for tactical-like performance in a system that has better balance and is easier to pack around out in the field. It's clearly no cheap alternative; but for those with both resources and a willingness to sieze an opportunity, it's not all that horrible a choice.
Greg
I think there's something of a paradox involved when considering hunting and the current evolution of Tactical rifles. The first favors a lighter weight setup, the latter is currently patterned on higher mass and barrel weight.
Personally, I would have some preferences for a tactical setup that more resembles a hunter; and that was at least partly where the two were originally, before tactical rifles began to emulate match oriented rifles. It's hard to do, though, while preserving the accuracy the newer tacitical rifles have come to enjoy.
For the last few years there's been a 'have your cake and eat it' option that I believe has enjoyed far less than its fair share of attention.
It's this. The component allows for tactical-like performance in a system that has better balance and is easier to pack around out in the field. It's clearly no cheap alternative; but for those with both resources and a willingness to sieze an opportunity, it's not all that horrible a choice.
Greg
Re: the best .308 set up?
Greg:
Thanks for the link to the ultra lightweight barrels.
Have you tried one? And do you know what they cost, I didn't see any prices on the website, but I may give them a call.
James
Greg:
Thanks for the link to the ultra lightweight barrels.
Have you tried one? And do you know what they cost, I didn't see any prices on the website, but I may give them a call.
James
Re: the best .308 set up?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swamper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I endorse a heavy-barreled AR-10 (T) as a Best .308 rifle.
Better than sniper/tactical rigged bolt rifle, better than Jeff Cooper's Steyr scout rifle. Bolt rifles are quality items and rugged. I've owned a Steyr Pro M in the 80s and took deer with it, a .30-06; nice but...
Scout scope is not worthwhile, unless it is all you have. Scout rig is all built to Cooper's spec and he simply did not live long enough or was in poor health when the AR-10 was returned to the civilian lineup. He talks ad nauseum about "riflery" in To Ride, Shoot Straight and Tell The Truth, which I read regularly; never did read his On Rifles or whatever his rifle manifesto was called.
AR-10 has all his carbine could ever offer, but has built-in picatinny rail, easy gunsmithing, superb Geiselle trigger, up to a 25rd magazine, and more options for scopes, sights, and barrels than any other .308 semi platform. Much better than M1a which back then he felt had best trigger potential.
AR-10 will compete at the range with any tactical .308win bolt rifle. There is no effective velocity loss due to gas cycling, but there is less felt recoil.
10, 20, or 25rds available and overall length of about 37 - 42" makes the AR more able to engage multiple targets. Load your rifle with 180gr premium bullets if you want to hunt with it.
If you just want a bolt, or are on a budget for your "best" rifle; I'd go with a Winchester 70 action, custom barrel, H-S Precision or better custom stock, and probably Jeff's CS Precision bottom system for AICS magazines, with Near Mfg picatinny base. </div></div> The day a guy with an AR-10 that can outshoot me with my bolt action 308 ill kiss your ass. All the crap you are putting out that a AR 10 will hold its own in accuracy to a custom bolt action 308 bolt gun is crap. I like the AR-10 dont get me wrong but it IS NOT IN THE SAME CLASS as any of my custom built BAT action Bartlien BBL guns i have.I still have not seen where an AR-10 Has won either a Tact. match or F/Tr match. I have never seen an AR10 that ever placed at an F/Tr match. SO i would say you are wrong when you say a AR-10 will shoot with a bolt gun .
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swamper</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I endorse a heavy-barreled AR-10 (T) as a Best .308 rifle.
Better than sniper/tactical rigged bolt rifle, better than Jeff Cooper's Steyr scout rifle. Bolt rifles are quality items and rugged. I've owned a Steyr Pro M in the 80s and took deer with it, a .30-06; nice but...
Scout scope is not worthwhile, unless it is all you have. Scout rig is all built to Cooper's spec and he simply did not live long enough or was in poor health when the AR-10 was returned to the civilian lineup. He talks ad nauseum about "riflery" in To Ride, Shoot Straight and Tell The Truth, which I read regularly; never did read his On Rifles or whatever his rifle manifesto was called.
AR-10 has all his carbine could ever offer, but has built-in picatinny rail, easy gunsmithing, superb Geiselle trigger, up to a 25rd magazine, and more options for scopes, sights, and barrels than any other .308 semi platform. Much better than M1a which back then he felt had best trigger potential.
AR-10 will compete at the range with any tactical .308win bolt rifle. There is no effective velocity loss due to gas cycling, but there is less felt recoil.
10, 20, or 25rds available and overall length of about 37 - 42" makes the AR more able to engage multiple targets. Load your rifle with 180gr premium bullets if you want to hunt with it.
If you just want a bolt, or are on a budget for your "best" rifle; I'd go with a Winchester 70 action, custom barrel, H-S Precision or better custom stock, and probably Jeff's CS Precision bottom system for AICS magazines, with Near Mfg picatinny base. </div></div> The day a guy with an AR-10 that can outshoot me with my bolt action 308 ill kiss your ass. All the crap you are putting out that a AR 10 will hold its own in accuracy to a custom bolt action 308 bolt gun is crap. I like the AR-10 dont get me wrong but it IS NOT IN THE SAME CLASS as any of my custom built BAT action Bartlien BBL guns i have.I still have not seen where an AR-10 Has won either a Tact. match or F/Tr match. I have never seen an AR10 that ever placed at an F/Tr match. SO i would say you are wrong when you say a AR-10 will shoot with a bolt gun .
Re: the best .308 set up?
An AR platform is a trade off. They require more maintanance and are potentially less reliable (more parts) plus they require more attention to detail to drive.
They give you faster follow up shots, more capacity and often less weight, not to mention the added flexability.
But aside from the trade offs, they in fact can be just as accurate as a bolt gun. I have seen them hold groups that would make a lot of bolt guns weep. And when you are specific to a tactical arena, they can be very much accurate enough.
If one is looking for a "do all" gun, the AR platform is very much a contender.
But, I would recomend a bolt gun for someone just getting into precision shooting. In .308 for that matter.
An AR platform is a trade off. They require more maintanance and are potentially less reliable (more parts) plus they require more attention to detail to drive.
They give you faster follow up shots, more capacity and often less weight, not to mention the added flexability.
But aside from the trade offs, they in fact can be just as accurate as a bolt gun. I have seen them hold groups that would make a lot of bolt guns weep. And when you are specific to a tactical arena, they can be very much accurate enough.
If one is looking for a "do all" gun, the AR platform is very much a contender.
But, I would recomend a bolt gun for someone just getting into precision shooting. In .308 for that matter.
Re: the best .308 set up?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">less weight</div></div>
What?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I still have not seen where an AR-10 Has won either a Tact. match or F/Tr match. </div></div>
How about the US Army International Sniper Championships held at Benning (two years in a row)?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">less weight</div></div>
What?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I still have not seen where an AR-10 Has won either a Tact. match or F/Tr match. </div></div>
How about the US Army International Sniper Championships held at Benning (two years in a row)?
Re: the best .308 set up?
I think you decide what you call trade offs. For me it is weight. So if you want to keep the heavier contour bbl (#7 or varmit contour) it needs to be shorter like 20".
Most hunting rigs are not SUPER LONG RANGE, So IMHO you just have to pick the stock. An AICS is heavy and square corners are not all that hunter friendly so if you pick an McM in like HTG and don't do the sniper fill you could probably end up with a 10# rig which is about the max I would want to haul around.
My sniper fill, MTU bbl is a sweet shooter but with the DBM and mags, brake, bipod, etc it all starts adding up and makes it much to heavy to hunt with.
Just my $.005,
Mark
I think you decide what you call trade offs. For me it is weight. So if you want to keep the heavier contour bbl (#7 or varmit contour) it needs to be shorter like 20".
Most hunting rigs are not SUPER LONG RANGE, So IMHO you just have to pick the stock. An AICS is heavy and square corners are not all that hunter friendly so if you pick an McM in like HTG and don't do the sniper fill you could probably end up with a 10# rig which is about the max I would want to haul around.
My sniper fill, MTU bbl is a sweet shooter but with the DBM and mags, brake, bipod, etc it all starts adding up and makes it much to heavy to hunt with.
Just my $.005,
Mark
Re: the best .308 set up?
I'd seriously like to see people post competition groups for AR rifles. If the same accuracy can be had from semi-automatic rifles, that mean a lot. Just saying it with no proof is foolish, though. If they win military competitions, what are the ranges, group sizes, amount of shots fired?
I don't think Cooper would approve of an AR. Besides having the pistol grip and ridiculous sight above bore distance (your two hands don't even run parallel to the bore, either), the AR only gives faster followup shots. That doesn't really fit into what he was trying to promote. In the Art of the Rifle, he basically implies that the perfect scout rifle will allow the warrior to drop an opponent with a single snapshot. You can't deny that that's as good as it could get, even if it ain't pragmatic. Even a difference between .2 MOA and .15 MOA isn't worth it from that perspective.
I'd seriously like to see people post competition groups for AR rifles. If the same accuracy can be had from semi-automatic rifles, that mean a lot. Just saying it with no proof is foolish, though. If they win military competitions, what are the ranges, group sizes, amount of shots fired?
I don't think Cooper would approve of an AR. Besides having the pistol grip and ridiculous sight above bore distance (your two hands don't even run parallel to the bore, either), the AR only gives faster followup shots. That doesn't really fit into what he was trying to promote. In the Art of the Rifle, he basically implies that the perfect scout rifle will allow the warrior to drop an opponent with a single snapshot. You can't deny that that's as good as it could get, even if it ain't pragmatic. Even a difference between .2 MOA and .15 MOA isn't worth it from that perspective.
Re: the best .308 set up?
2009 Champion Palma Team Scores (Service Class, fired with an AR-10) at Camp Perry (450-45X is a possible score):
GRANT, SCOTT 427- 12X
MICHOLICK, JOEL 432- 13X
PACE, WILLIAM 436- 14X
TRICKETT, KEVIN 443- 21X
1738-60X
=================
2009 Champion Bolt Gun Team Scores (NRA Match Rifle):
CHUBB, JOHN 440- 13X
LADD, J.D. 446- 22X
UPDIKE, JOHN 447- 24X
WALTER, WILLIAM 449- 31X
1782-90x
2009 Champion Palma Team Scores (Service Class, fired with an AR-10) at Camp Perry (450-45X is a possible score):
GRANT, SCOTT 427- 12X
MICHOLICK, JOEL 432- 13X
PACE, WILLIAM 436- 14X
TRICKETT, KEVIN 443- 21X
1738-60X
=================
2009 Champion Bolt Gun Team Scores (NRA Match Rifle):
CHUBB, JOHN 440- 13X
LADD, J.D. 446- 22X
UPDIKE, JOHN 447- 24X
WALTER, WILLIAM 449- 31X
1782-90x
Re: the best .308 set up?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2009 Champion Palma Team Scores (Service Class, fired with an AR-10) at Camp Perry (450-45X is a possible score):
GRANT, SCOTT 427- 12X
MICHOLICK, JOEL 432- 13X
PACE, WILLIAM 436- 14X
TRICKETT, KEVIN 443- 21X
1738-60X
=================
2009 Champion Bolt Gun Team Scores (NRA Match Rifle):
CHUBB, JOHN 440- 13X
LADD, J.D. 446- 22X
UPDIKE, JOHN 447- 24X
WALTER, WILLIAM 449- 31X
1782-90x
AR 10s 1738 score bolt guns score 1782 that is a lot of difference
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2009 Champion Palma Team Scores (Service Class, fired with an AR-10) at Camp Perry (450-45X is a possible score):
GRANT, SCOTT 427- 12X
MICHOLICK, JOEL 432- 13X
PACE, WILLIAM 436- 14X
TRICKETT, KEVIN 443- 21X
1738-60X
=================
2009 Champion Bolt Gun Team Scores (NRA Match Rifle):
CHUBB, JOHN 440- 13X
LADD, J.D. 446- 22X
UPDIKE, JOHN 447- 24X
WALTER, WILLIAM 449- 31X
1782-90x
AR 10s 1738 score bolt guns score 1782 that is a lot of difference
</div></div>
