The BIG 3 Bino/Rangefinders (or 4?) Swaro EL RF, Leica 3200’s , Sig 10K or Ziess?

Totally agree. I'll be watching the Sig 10K's too. Seems like they invested a lot into the interface, software etc. I just wish they had put premium glass in them as a "do-all" glassing, ranging, ballistics bino. I don't mind dropping $3K on a pair if I get premium glass AND a good rangefinder, especially with ballistics for drop onboard. Once you've been behind good optics it's hard to downgrade in glass quality. You would think a company as big with as much momentum as Sig would figure out the demand for something like the 10K with better glass.

I have not used the Vortex UHD or Fury's but I think they would sell a ton of their Fury's with UHD glass. Especially if they can upgrade the laser and do something similar to what SIG did with the all-in-one display.

My understanding is that it's complicated to put a rangefinder into the binoculars and use the same premium coatings because it effects the laser sensor. This is why the Swarovski RF doesn't have as good optics as their NL line from what I hear. Leica got around it with the GEOVIDS by not having the laser module and sensor in the tube, it's in between them. So the 3200's have very good glass. I'm not an engineer or expert on range-finding bino's, just passing along stuff I read doing research.
 
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First independent review of the new PRO's I have seen. Matt seemed like a really nice guy, talked to him after seeing the review. He said he was getting 2000 yard ranges pretty reliably. Sounds like the glass is pretty similar between the 3200.coms and PRO's, even down to last light.

 
First independent review of the new PRO's I have seen. Matt seemed like a really nice guy, talked to him after seeing the review. He said he was getting 2000 yard ranges pretty reliably. Sounds like the glass is pretty similar between the 3200.coms and PRO's, even down to last light.



If that is the case is it a positive thing or a negative thing?

It could be argued as a positive due to the fact these binos are a lot smaller / lighter and are (only) 32mm, plus it sounds like they have a bunch of new / upgraded tech the 3200.coms do not.

On the flip side I had formed the impression that the Pros were the new "Upgraded" version of the 3200.coms but maybe not - I understand we are not comparing apples to apples.

Please note I am new to binos with zero personal experience and am interested as I am in the market for my first pair.
 
It is definitely a positive thing. The PRO’s are technically “updated” and the electronics and onboard AB ballistics will be an upgrade hopefully but read this whole thread to understand.

Cliff notes version: 10x32mm PRO’s vs 10x42mm 3200’s. Many, including myself, wondered if the reduced objective of the 32mm PRO’s might effect optical quality. Per this video review (that has been taken down by the reviewer) the optics are very similar. So we’re getting basically the same optical performance with a smaller set of binos and upgraded ballistics and interface. And the 3200’s have great optics, so that’s all very good.
 
If you want good glass, skip the Sig/Vortex and other chicom junk. They are a waste of money IMO.

Of the Big 3, I tested them all and ended up with the Leica 3K's.

The Swaro had the best glass, followed by the Leica/Ziess. It was not good enough to overcome the Leica having the best laser by far of the 3. Also, you could get the Leicas for a notch over $2K for a while, making them a much better value. I dont have the bluetooth version, don't really see a need for it. It wasn't worth the extra $800-1K for me. Either punch in kestral or go to wrist coach.

I think short of a PLRF, 905nm Steiners(8K+) or a Vector21 (12k+), the Leicas are the best package, especially with the new laser in the 32 and 3500.

For a standalone the terapinx is nice but at $1700, i would rather spend a little more for something that doubles as spotting Binos.

I wish someone would make a set of 15X swaro or Leicas with the LRF. It would be better for spotting.

I use the 10x42 HDB3000 for everything, PRS, NRL hunter, Field matches, Hunting, Scouting, ect. They are awesome. Never needed to range anything past 3K and I have gotten verified ranges out past 2900 with solid returns.
 
For the record, and per Leica and testing , the PRO’s ARE a downgrade in ranging distance vs the Leica 3200’s . 3200’s can legitimately range to 3K+ pretty reliably, in tough conditions. The new PRO’s are “only” rated to 2500 yards and have been confirmed to reliably hit 2K in the limited reviews out there. The trade off for less range is getting a smaller form factor and unlimited dope in the PRO’s, without connecting to a Kestrel (if you upgrade to the AB Elite).

The point has also been made that a kestrel is still necessary for wind anyhow. I agree, to a point. If I can get reliable drop data from the bino’s and manually input a wind estimate I think it may still be worth the trade off. The display of yardage, a 1-2 second delay, then dope is the downer, Leica did not update the HUD to show them both at once like the SIG 10K.

Everything is a trade off. So far it seems like SIG got the best rangefinder into the 10k, and likely the best display. Reportedly has good connection and onboard data too. But the glass is sub-par to the “big three”.

Leica seems to be the overall winner between the big 3 as far as a rangefinder bino so far. Lots of people like the Zeiss but their rangefinder and ballistics are both limited. People also seem to love or hate the button placement.

The Swarovski’s are falling further behind with their rangefinder binos. They don’t connect to a kestrel and the rangefinder just doesn’t seem to cut it for serious long range shooter/hunters. Many consider the NL Pures to be the best bino in the industry as far as optics but those don’t have a rangefinder.

Vortex Fury 5000 AB’s get honorable mention for a reported good interface, on board unlimited drops and a decent rangefinder. Sub par glass compared to the alpha’s though.

That’s where things are for now. First company to get a great rangefinder, on-board unlimited drop data, (preferably without a kestrel) and Alpha glass will probably rule the market for a while. For now it send you can pick 2 out of 3, although the Leica Geovid PRO’s may give us 3/3 if they live up to the specs/hype.
 
How are the environmental sensors on the Leica 32 Pros? Something not always mentioned is the delay with the Sigs and other designs in acclimation time when brought from within a pouch near the body to the outdoor environment, again making the onboard sensors/ballistic solutions more interesting to deal with, at times. You have to leave them out and exposed for ~10 minutes to acclimate in some cases. I'm curious if Leica has their sensors more exposed to the external environment to facilitate faster pickup when transitioning from a protective case to open air.
 
7D2FD0A6-C4F0-4020-8D67-6216C2B9428D.gif
Us waiting for a real hands-on field review on the Leica PRO’s and not some queer in liederhosen and a funny hat video.
 
I have been trying to decide which ones to get also. I think I have decided to go with the Vortex Fury because of the warranty. As far as I can tell the Fury is the only one with an unconditional Lifetime warranty on the Binos and the electronics. The price is only around 1500 for the AB and 1100 for the non AB. I've held them and looked through them numerous time and the quality really seems to be there.
 
I have been trying to decide which ones to get also. I think I have decided to go with the Vortex Fury because of the warranty. As far as I can tell the Fury is the only one with an unconditional Lifetime warranty on the Binos and the electronics. The price is only around 1500 for the AB and 1100 for the non AB. I've held them and looked through them numerous time and the quality really seems to be there.
Are RFs lifetime purchases for you? I swap them every 3-5 years or so as technology improves significantly, so for me, lifetime warranty < glass quality/RF performance/display/ballistic calculation/etc. I’ve not had to use warranty once on any that I’ve owned (knock on wood).
 
I have been trying to decide which ones to get also. I think I have decided to go with the Vortex Fury because of the warranty. As far as I can tell the Fury is the only one with an unconditional Lifetime warranty on the Binos and the electronics. The price is only around 1500 for the AB and 1100 for the non AB. I've held them and looked through them numerous time and the quality really seems to be there.
A lot of people seem to like the Fury’s. They just don’t have that next level optical performance I’m looking for. Hopefully they do some RF 12’s or 15’s with the UHD glass someday.
 
Many consider the NL Pures to be the best bino in the industry as far as optics but those don’t have a rangefinder.
I recently picked up a pair of NL Pures in 10 x42. I have other Swaros as well as Zeiss and Leicas. The Pures are hands down the finest binoculars I have ever had the pleasure of looking through. The field of view, clarity, and ergonomics leave every other pair of binoculars in the rear view mirror. I find them almost mesmerizing to use. The optional forehead rest is a game changer for glassing with higher powered optics. If anyone is looking for non ranging alpha binoculars, these are the pinnacle.
PXL_20220327_185406088.jpg
 
I recently picked up a pair of NL Pures in 10 x42. I have other Swaros as well as Zeiss and Leicas. The Pures are hands down the finest binoculars I have ever had the pleasure of looking through. The field of view, clarity, and ergonomics leave every other pair of binoculars in the rear view mirror. I find them almost mesmerizing to use. The optional forehead rest is a game changer for glassing with higher powered optics. If anyone is looking for non ranging alpha binoculars, these are the pinnacle.
View attachment 7836726

If Swarovski ever add a good quality range finder with ballistics into those binos they can take my money!

From what I understand their current range finding option is kinda basic.
 
If Swarovski ever add a good quality range finder with ballistics into those binos they can take my money!

From what I understand their current range finding option is kinda basic.
Agree. I still prefer to glass with non-ranging binoculars and range with my Terrapin linked to the Kestrel. So far, every binocular RF product involves a compromise for which I'm not willing to pay. If I'm glassing, I want the best glass, period. If I'm going to spend big money on a rangefinder, it will be a 1550 nm product that easily connects to the Kestrel like the PLRF25.
 
Agree. I still prefer to glass with non-ranging binoculars and range with my Terrapin linked to the Kestrel. So far, every binocular RF product involves a compromise for which I'm not willing to pay. If I'm glassing, I want the best glass, period. If I'm going to spend big money on a rangefinder, it will be a 1550 nm product that easily connects to the Kestrel like the PLRF25.
Everything is a compromise when it comes to shooting and optics it seems. Glad you like your NL’s, they sound awesome!

There’s a case to be made for buying an alpha set of binos, without a rangefinder, to last for a long time. Then having a separate rangefinder that you can update every few years as technology improves. For static shooting and even some hunting that’s probably a good way to go.

For NRL Hunter matches it seems having a RF bino with a good laser AND ballistics is a big deal. Having 4 minutes for finding, ranging, DOPE’ing and engaging targets makes any efficiency improvement helpful. Of course, an arm board with DOPE and a separate rangefinder works too, lots of good shooters aren’t combining everything.

There are hunting scenarios where an all-in-one unit is very helpful as well. Jon Pynch recently mentioned in a VP podcast that on his Canadian moose hunt his rangefinder binos with data made a big difference for him. Basically, big bull moose they watched for days finally came out of the private land and was crossing a stretch of public they could hunt. He was at 700 something yards and moving if memory serves. Pynch is using the Zeiss RF binos and he obviously has done well in PRS and NRL and felt comfortable taking that shot. Not everyone would or should but he mentioned being limited on time and how the all-in-one unit helped, he just glanced at his kestrel for wind really quick and whacked it.

Based off the research I’ve done so far the Zeiss or Leica’s will fit my needs best. If Leica improved the app enough with the PRO’s to make it simple and easy to connect to kestrel, add shooting profiles and run everything off the bino then they’ll probably be on top with the PRO’s for a while. Swaro has a limited laser, no data and no connection to kestrel. They also don’t have THEIR best glass in the rangefinder version, as pointed out. Something to do with the coatings on the objective lenses and the sensor being inside one of the tubes. They’re falling behind in that department, while they seem to have the best straight binos and spotters out there optically.

We shall see, I’m on a waitlist for the Leica 10x32 PRO’s and will be excited to see some real reviews drop in the next few weeks hopefully.
 
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Thanks for the in-depth breakdown, excellent, as always sir.

I don't have a ton of experience owning high-end bino's but have used some nice ones at matches for spotting, etc. Most of those aren't in low light conditions. I've also seen the difference in an 8X Swaro pair vs a 15X tasco, etc, lol.

I was considering the 10x32's Pro's vs the 8x32's. I know magnification isn't everything but on a tripod with good glass it seems 10's, 12's or 15's are what guys like for comps and a 10 should be fine hand-held for hunting. The 8's may be perfect for someone looking for hunting optics if they have pulled off the 90% transmission with those, especially if they run a spotting scope too. Light transmission on the 10x32's will be interesting for sure. If they pulled it off it could be a winner.

I may just get the 10x42 3200's and see if the beam divergence is an issue for me. The PRO's won't be out until April or May I would imagine. Until people that know what they're talking about; like @Glassaholic or @koshkin, can get them in hand and do a good side-by side between them in low light it will just be conjecture I think. Would be a great article for @BigJimFish or my guy Cal Zant at Precision Rifle Blog to do!

@Glassaholic, your issue with the Leica's above may also be where the aiming point is compared to the actual laser point of impact right? The beam divergence obviously might cause it too. I think the Sigs having an adjustable aiming box or circle is a nice feature so you can "zero" you laser to the center of you reticle in the bino/rf.

The Leica Geovid Pro 10x32's arrived today. Here is the worlds worst unboxing picture because the kids were jumping around like banshees and that is really all I had time for. I should go sit across the field from the house and check up on them with the binos instead of occupying the same room as them to get a break.

2022 4 6 terrible unboxing leica pic.jpg


Obviously I'll be doing a full SnipersHide review of these. Here is the link to the yearly 2022 review blog to follow the progress. Of course the review will be on the SH front page when done.
 
@BigJimFish , what?!? Not gonna lie, I’m a little jelly right now but stoked to see them in the wild, especially with a review coming from you!

And I can relate on the little demonic cherubs, I like the idea of babysitting from a few hundred yards away with binos, lol.

I’m sure your standard review will take a while but if you would consider an “initial impressions” quicky over the next few days that would be cool.

I’d particularly be interested in:

1-the initial setup, app and display (rumors of a brightness issue Inv bright sunlight was mentioned on a pre-production model).
2-lowlight performance on the 10x32’s compared to a similar 10x42 like the 3200’s or Swaro EL’s.
3-kestrel connection/use
 
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I can't speak to the Leica but have the 2nd gen Swaro EL Range and the newest Zeiss LRF binos. I will say, the true color pops slightly more in the Swaro, but only noticeable when side by side. Otherwise, the Zeiss are amazing and I'm keeping them and the Ranges will go down the road. But I also bought the NL Pure 12x and keeping those too. They are real nice and my near daily used binos.

The ballistics in the Zeiss are spot on with my .22 out to nearly 300yds!
 
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@BigJimFish , what?!? Not gonna lie, I’m a little jelly right now but stoked to see them in the wild, especially with a review coming from you!

And I can relate on the little demonic cherubs, I like the idea of babysitting from a few hundred yards away with binos, lol.

I’m sure your standard review will take a while but if you would consider an “initial impressions” quicky over the next few days that would be cool.

I’d particularly be interested in:

1-the initial setup, app and display (rumors of a brightness issue Inv bright sunlight was mentioned on a pre-production model).
2-lowlight performance on the 10x32’s compared to a similar 10x42 like the 3200’s or Swaro EL’s.
3-kestrel connection/use
Initial Leica Pro 10x32 LRF bino thoughts

The first impression I had when handling the new Leica Pro 32 binos is that the really feel like a nice set of bird watching binos. They are smaller and lighter than other laser rangefinding binos I have used and the open bridge form factor favored by most high end mid size binos. This is a long way from the size and shape of the Bushnell Fusion 1 Mile ARC binos I reviewed back in 2013. Incidentally, I have just resurrected that review as it was apparently lost in the Scout.com exile period and, unlike most other reviews of that period, I did not seem to have uploaded it to either OpticsThoughts or AR15.com so it was truly not available. The only things that did not strike me as high grade birdwatching bino in either quality or design on these Leica Pro's are the lense caps and the diopters. The lens caps retain nicely when they are closed but when open they are held to the bino body only with what amounts to a stretchy rubber band. This band does not ride in any groove on the binocular barrels and so slips off easily. If you walk around with your lens caps open and dangling, you will loose them rather quickly. As for the diopters, the Leica Pro 32's feature one on each eye right in front of the eye cups instead of a single. These are not locking and move quite easily. At the very least they should be stiffer and, ideally for an optic of this cost, would be locking.

I have not had time to fully evaluate the Leica Pro 32's optically yet, but I have had them on a few nature walks and have also put them side by side with both Swarovski's EL Range 10x42's and also their NL Pure 10x42's. Thank you to the manager at my local Cabela's for providing some time and flexibility in these observations.

2022 4 8 Leica Pro Malard comp 1080.jpg

Through the lens photos are typically a poor measurement of optical performance and often come out poorly but this one through the Leica Pro 10x32 LRF bios sure came out well

In general I am quite pleased with the optical performance of the Pro 32's. On their own they look great. Bright, clear, sharp, they again leave you thinking your using a nice set of birdwatching binos and not a laser rangefinder. When compared optically to the Swarovski EL rangefinders, the Leica Pro's strike me as roughly equivalent though not the same. Outside, in overcast ideal conditions, both binos do seem very close to the same. However, in brighter conditions of direct sunlight, the Leica's show less chromatic aberration than the Swarovski's and were therefore preferable in those conditions. Inside, in lower light conditions, the Swarovski's were brighter and had better contrast making them preferable in those conditions. The color rendition is likewise a little different between the two sets of binos. Swarovski has a reputation for providing even, true to life, color rendition and that is what I saw in them. The Leicas in contrast really made the greens and reds pop.

2022 4 8 Leica swaro outside testing 1080.jpg

Spending a little time with the Leica Pro 10x32 LRF binoculars side by side with the Swarovski EL Range 10x42 rangefinding binoculars

When either set of rangefinding binos was compared to the NL Pures I was reminded that no matter how good the top rangefinding binos get you are always going to give up a bit when comparing them to top binos without rangefinders. The NL's were plainly better than either rangefinding set. Remember that even if you take the laser out of the lens assembly, as Leica wisely has, allowing you to use the better optimized lens coatings and arrangements for optical performance, you still have a display in there. That display requires a degree of reflectivity and this inescapably lowers your optical performance.

Speaking of that display, it has evidently been brightened since the early pre-production samples as I had no difficulty making out readings in bright sunlight.

As for the laser and software performance. I really haven't had a chance to stretch the laser much yet. Ohio is flat and tree covered so testing a laser requires going somewhere special to do so. A high building, a lake, train tracks, somewhere you can actually sight a significant number of different targets at varying large distances. I just haven't done this yet. Part of the reason for this is that I just received the ballistic software a couple days ago. I think this may also still be beta software as well. The link I received seems to indicate this and my test binos included no information on that aspect of function so I expect it probably has a separate manual of it's own not yet finalized. It will be probably be a couple weeks before I can really dig into the software and evaluate it's ease of use and customizability. My work schedule the next few weeks is particularly slammed.

With respect specifically to Kestrel pairing as Ed asked, I do not actually have a Kestrel to test it with. Here in Ohio average wind velocity is not particularly high but the trees and other near ground structures cause it to eddy quite ferociously and unpredictably. As such, I don't see much of an edge in having a wind meter at my location. The other functions Kestrel does I have done with either an app on my smart phone or old fashion printed dope sheet.
 
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Initial Leica Pro 10x32 LRF bino thoughts

The first impression I had when handling the new Leica Pro 32 binos is that the really feel like a nice set of bird watching binos. They are smaller and lighter than other laser rangefinding binos I have used and the open bridge form factor favored by most high end mid size binos. This is a long way from the size and shape of the Bushnell Fusion 1 Mile ARC binos I reviewed back in 2013. Incidentally, I have just resurrected that review as it was apparently lost in the Scout.com exile period and, unlike most other reviews of that period, I did not seem to have uploaded it to either OpticsThoughts or AR15.com so it was truly not available. The only things that did not strike me as high grade birdwatching bino in either quality or design on these Leica Pro's are the lense caps and the diopters. The lens caps retain nicely when they are closed but when open they are held to the bino body only with what amounts to a stretchy rubber band. This band does not ride in any groove on the binocular barrels and so slips off easily. If you walk around with your lens caps open and dangling, you will loose them rather quickly. As for the diopters, the Leica Pro 32's feature one on each eye right in front of the eye cups instead of a single. These are not locking and move quite easily. At the very least they should be stiffer and, ideally for an optic of this cost, would be locking.

I have not had time to fully evaluate the Leica Pro 32's optically yet, but I have had them on a few nature walks and have also put them side by side with both Swarovski's EL Range 10x42's and also their NL Pure 10x42's. Thank you to the manager at my local Cabela's for providing some time and flexibility in these observations.

View attachment 7847502
Through the lens photos are typically a poor measurement of optical performance and often come out poorly but this one through the Leica Pro 10x32 LRF bios sure came out well

In general I am quite pleased with the optical performance of the Pro 32's. On their own they look great. Bright, clear, sharp, they again leave you thinking your using a nice set of birdwatching binos and not a laser rangefinder. When compared optically to the Swarovski EL rangefinders, the Leica Pro's strike me as roughly equivalent though not the same. Outside, in overcast ideal conditions, both binos do seem very close to the same. However, in brighter conditions of direct sunlight, the Leica's show less chromatic aberration than the Swarovski's and were therefore preferable in those conditions. Inside, in lower light conditions, the Swarovski's were brighter and had better contrast making them preferable in those conditions. The color rendition is likewise a little different between the two sets of binos. Swarovski has a reputation for providing even, true to life, color rendition and that is what I saw in them. The Leicas in contrast really made the greens and reds pop.

View attachment 7847503
Spending a little time with the Leica Pro 10x32 LRF binoculars side by side with the Swarovski EL Range 10x42 rangefinding binoculars

When either set of rangefinding binos was compared to the NL Pures I was reminded that no matter how good the top rangefinding binos get you are always going to give up a bit when comparing them to top binos without rangefinders. The NL's were plainly better than either rangefinding set. Remember that even if you take the laser and receiver out of the lens assembly, as Leica wisely has, allowing you to use the best optimized lens coatings and arrangements for optical performance, you still have a display in there. That display requires a degree of reflectivity and this inescapably lowers your optical performance.

Speaking of that display, it has evidently been brightened since the early pre-production samples as I had no difficulty making out readings in bright sunlight.

As for the laser and software performance. I really haven't had a chance to stretch the laser much yet. Ohio is flat and tree covered so testing a laser requires going somewhere special to do so. A high building, a lake, train tracks, somewhere you can actually sight a significant number of different targets at varying large distances. I just haven't done this yet. Part of the reason for this is that I just received the ballistic software a couple days ago. I think this may also still be beta software as well. The link I received seems to indicate this and my test binos included no information on that aspect of function so I expect it probably has a separate manual of it's own not yet finalized. It will be probably be a couple weeks before I can really dig into the software and evaluate it's ease of use and customizability. My work schedule the next few weeks is particularly slammed.

With respect specifically to Kestrel pairing as Ed asked, I do not actually have a Kestrel to test it with. Here in Ohio average wind velocity is not particularly high but the trees and other near ground structures cause it to eddy quite ferociously and unpredictably. As such, I don't see much of an edge in having a wind meter at my location. The other functions Kestrel does I have done with either an app on my smart phone or old fashion printed dope sheet.
Much appreciated.

Very, very interesting on the diopters. I’ve ripped Sig for this in the past, and I’ll be quick to rip Leica for it if mine move easily.

Will be curious to test in and out and in and out of a chest harness to see if they move.

If they do, shame on Leica and I’ll go back to waiting for the right pair of RF Bins
 
Initial Leica Pro 10x32 LRF bino thoughts

The first impression I had when handling the new Leica Pro 32 binos is that the really feel like a nice set of bird watching binos. They are smaller and lighter than other laser rangefinding binos I have used and the open bridge form factor favored by most high end mid size binos. This is a long way from the size and shape of the Bushnell Fusion 1 Mile ARC binos I reviewed back in 2013. Incidentally, I have just resurrected that review as it was apparently lost in the Scout.com exile period and, unlike most other reviews of that period, I did not seem to have uploaded it to either OpticsThoughts or AR15.com so it was truly not available. The only things that did not strike me as high grade birdwatching bino in either quality or design on these Leica Pro's are the lense caps and the diopters. The lens caps retain nicely when they are closed but when open they are held to the bino body only with what amounts to a stretchy rubber band. This band does not ride in any groove on the binocular barrels and so slips off easily. If you walk around with your lens caps open and dangling, you will loose them rather quickly. As for the diopters, the Leica Pro 32's feature one on each eye right in front of the eye cups instead of a single. These are not locking and move quite easily. At the very least they should be stiffer and, ideally for an optic of this cost, would be locking.

I have not had time to fully evaluate the Leica Pro 32's optically yet, but I have had them on a few nature walks and have also put them side by side with both Swarovski's EL Range 10x42's and also their NL Pure 10x42's. Thank you to the manager at my local Cabela's for providing some time and flexibility in these observations.

View attachment 7847502
Through the lens photos are typically a poor measurement of optical performance and often come out poorly but this one through the Leica Pro 10x32 LRF bios sure came out well

In general I am quite pleased with the optical performance of the Pro 32's. On their own they look great. Bright, clear, sharp, they again leave you thinking your using a nice set of birdwatching binos and not a laser rangefinder. When compared optically to the Swarovski EL rangefinders, the Leica Pro's strike me as roughly equivalent though not the same. Outside, in overcast ideal conditions, both binos do seem very close to the same. However, in brighter conditions of direct sunlight, the Leica's show less chromatic aberration than the Swarovski's and were therefore preferable in those conditions. Inside, in lower light conditions, the Swarovski's were brighter and had better contrast making them preferable in those conditions. The color rendition is likewise a little different between the two sets of binos. Swarovski has a reputation for providing even, true to life, color rendition and that is what I saw in them. The Leicas in contrast really made the greens and reds pop.

View attachment 7847503
Spending a little time with the Leica Pro 10x32 LRF binoculars side by side with the Swarovski EL Range 10x42 rangefinding binoculars

When either set of rangefinding binos was compared to the NL Pures I was reminded that no matter how good the top rangefinding binos get you are always going to give up a bit when comparing them to top binos without rangefinders. The NL's were plainly better than either rangefinding set. Remember that even if you take the laser and receiver out of the lens assembly, as Leica wisely has, allowing you to use the best optimized lens coatings and arrangements for optical performance, you still have a display in there. That display requires a degree of reflectivity and this inescapably lowers your optical performance.

Speaking of that display, it has evidently been brightened since the early pre-production samples as I had no difficulty making out readings in bright sunlight.

As for the laser and software performance. I really haven't had a chance to stretch the laser much yet. Ohio is flat and tree covered so testing a laser requires going somewhere special to do so. A high building, a lake, train tracks, somewhere you can actually sight a significant number of different targets at varying large distances. I just haven't done this yet. Part of the reason for this is that I just received the ballistic software a couple days ago. I think this may also still be beta software as well. The link I received seems to indicate this and my test binos included no information on that aspect of function so I expect it probably has a separate manual of it's own not yet finalized. It will be probably be a couple weeks before I can really dig into the software and evaluate it's ease of use and customizability. My work schedule the next few weeks is particularly slammed.

With respect specifically to Kestrel pairing as Ed asked, I do not actually have a Kestrel to test it with. Here in Ohio average wind velocity is not particularly high but the trees and other near ground structures cause it to eddy quite ferociously and unpredictably. As such, I don't see much of an edge in having a wind meter at my location. The other functions Kestrel does I have done with either an app on my smart phone or old fashion printed dope sheet.
Awesome, thanks for your initial thoughts Sir! Glad to hear the brightness issue has been resolved. Sounds like optically we’re going to be in good shape too as far as a RF bino. My understanding is that the NL pures make the EL’s (non RF) look not-so-good just because they’re so nice.
 
For anyone interested in the Leica Pro's, supposedly they will start shipping production units to retailers for sale real soon. My impression was that they have the units but are finalizing the new app for the PRO's.

At Scheels yesterday I played with the Leica 3200.com's and put them up against some Swaro NL Pures (non rangefinding obviously). Just like @BigJimFish and others have mentioned, the Leica glass is very good, especially for a rangefinder bino. The NL Pures are just silly. Not only do they feel great in the hand with the divot in the center of the bino barrels but optically I don't think I've seen a better image through glass, EVER.

Hoping to get my Leica 10x32 PRO's before the NRL Hunter match in Laramie Wyoming next weekend. REALLY hoping that the on-board AB Elite will be functioning for elevation dope without a hitch. Gonna run an armboard and take the SIG 3K's and the Kestrel too just in case. Also really hoping my fat-ass doesn't core out on the 12-15 stages we're shooting on Saturday, lol.
 
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How are y’all picking between the 8 and 10x? My gut tells me 10x but I’ve read
that, when it comes to binos, 8x32 has bigger fov, better low light performance, more stability , bigger exit pupil, and is easier to use with glasses, while 10x32 can show more detail, but with more shakiness, and worse light performance.
Also, would it be easier to laze a target with 8x because it’s more stable or harder because I don’t see as much detail?
 
How are y’all picking between the 8 and 10x? My gut tells me 10x but I’ve read
that, when it comes to binos, 8x32 has bigger fov, better low light performance, more stability , bigger exit pupil, and is easier to use with glasses, while 10x32 can show more detail, but with more shakiness, and worse light performance.
Also, would it be easier to laze a target with 8x because it’s more stable or harder because I don’t see as much detail?
Others that have played with more may versions may chime in but for me I want the magnification of the 10X. Don't overthink the ranging, the difference between 8x-10x won't matter as far as "ranging shakiness". Image stability in general will be slightly different.

As for image stability, most people in general say that 10 or 12x is the max you can pull off handheld without an image stabilizing software or throwing them on a tripod. No matter what the magnification you're going to see more detail on a stable platform like a tripod, pack, etc.

Early reports in low light seem to be showing that going to the 32mm's objective vs 40mm is not effecting low-light use much. FOV is still good on the 10x, I think it's 345 feet at 1000 yards, 8x FOV is 405 feet at the same distance. So for my use the extra magnification will be worth it because I will be using it to spot hits/misses on steel in comps, look for targets in field matches like CD, NRL Hunter, etc. I like them on a tripod as often as possible and may not use a spotting scope while hunting.

Eventually I'd like to have a pair of 15X56 ones for spotting at matches, RO'ing etc. But the 10's are a good compromise that many people seem to go with as a "do-all". I have NOT ever heard of people that go from an 8X to a 10X, all things being equal, that say they wish they hadn't. I HAVE heard of people that go to an 8X from a 10X and miss it.
 
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That makes a lot of sense. Thanks so much! Now I just need to make sure that the image displays all required info immediately after lazing as and that I don’t have to wait or manually cycle through pages to see what I need.
 
That makes a lot of sense. Thanks so much! Now I just need to make sure that the image displays all required info immediately after lazing as and that I don’t have to wait or manually cycle through pages to see what I need.
I don’t think the Leica’s do. Try the Sig 10k’s if that’s more important than alpha glass for you.
 
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Zeiss, period. If you can afford them get them. I have owned most of them and played with all of them. Laser is not as important as finding targets on the clock and you don't need a 4k yard laser for field matches.

And the button on the Zeiss is fine. If you can't find the button, you probably couldn't find you ass with both hands.
 
Zeiss, period. If you can afford them get them. I have owned most of them and played with all of them. Laser is not as important as finding targets on the clock and you don't need a 4k yard laser for field matches.

And the button on the Zeiss is fine. If you can't find the button, you probably couldn't find you ass with both hands.
How are the onboard ballistics for the Zeiss? Do they connect to a Kestrel with AB?
 
No Kestrel. Dope lines up ok, but I don't usually use that feature. Zeiss mobile app is not good. Glass and laser are excellent. I use analog dope for field matches. Find targets, range, look at your dope and shoot em.
 
Update 7-1-2022

The Leica Geovid Pro 32 review is now live. Laser rangefinding binoculars have quite a number of aspects on which they must be evaluated. Optics, laser performance, atmospheric sensors, and software to name a few. As a result, it's a long review and includes a good deal of background on a number of different technologies. A bit of something for everyone. You have been warned though. It's a chapter book.

2022 5 16 leica pro unboxing 1080.jpg

Leica Geovid Pro 32 Unboxing
 
Great job as usual on the full Leica review @BigJimFish.

I’m running the 10x32’s and like them pretty well. Have had no bugs with the app which is very easy to use and connect, a huge improvement over the 3200’s in that department. I’ll likely replace the 10x32’s with 10x42’s PRO’s next year.

I agree, the glass on the Leicas is very good. I’m enjoying them for spotting at local matches for sure. I need to do a field of view comparison with the 3200 full size ones, a Zeiss 10x42 RF model and maybe the 8x32 PRO’s. I struggle a bit getting my eyes close enough to the lenses to get a full sight picture. I think it’s how my face is structured because I rarely run the eye-cups out on any binos. It seemed like the Zeiss were just super easy to get behind.
D9E06EB1-6A1B-451A-8FC4-1B2E4C92C1D5.jpeg
 
I read the review...looks like the 32's do struggle just a little as light begins to fade. I like the idea of the 42's though. Might wait until those come out.
 
Just go read the Sig thread on here.

Sig 10k’s have a better display and laser. But the blue tint is pretty bad. So much so that people were not able to see targets in shadows at the Blue Steel CD match with them.

I wasn’t there but that’s the word. Sig basically prioritized a bright display over glass quality. They’re having other bugs too. Sad because the laser and display configuration is well liked.
 
I understand that the Steiner M1050 is the 905nm laser and lacks any specific ballistic programming. I typically use hard data since I don't compete. I'd like to get feedback on the performance of the glass. I've owned a couple of the non-alpha glass LRF binos, Vortex Fury and Nikon Laserforce, and looked through the 3k and 10ks, and I really don't like the glass.

At this point, I'm thinking of separating the LRF, and buy a Leica 2800.com, and buy better glass.

Editing to caveat: I found a pair of M1050's for a touch over 1k.

Edit #2: I just watched @koshkin review these, and he thinks the glass holds its own, but obviously didn't like the lack of additional functionality of the laser.
FYI it's the Steiner M830rfs that can be had with a 1535nm laser (and they have an add-on BT module that communicates with a Kestrel). The M1050s have a 905nm laser.
 
Just go read the Sig thread on here.

Sig 10k’s have a better display and laser. But the blue tint is pretty bad. So much so that people were not able to see targets in shadows at the Blue Steel CD match with them.

I wasn’t there but that’s the word. Sig basically prioritized a bright display over glass quality. They’re having other bugs too. Sad because the laser and display configuration is well liked.
I shot that match with the Sigs. Personally I had no problem finding targets in the shade. At least no more than any other year with hidden targets in the shadows. Yes they are tinted blue and yes they aren’t Leicas. My buddy bitched about the tint but finished top 5 using them. I have shot the match 5 times times with leicas (3200 and 3000) and I’ll take the sigs again based on the much smaller laser, speed, ability to enter temperature, ability to center reticle, and instant dope.

That being said if I was roing a match or glassing I’d use the Leicas all day. If their glass is a 10 the Sigs are a 7. But at 2/3 the price and better features (for competition) they are far from unusable. Hoping the next Leica model will improve the features and shrink/align the laser as they would be a home run for all things. I feel for now they are almost like having two different tools depending on the job.
 
I shot that match with the Sigs. Personally I had no problem finding targets in the shade. At least no more than any other year with hidden targets in the shadows. Yes they are tinted blue and yes they aren’t Leicas. My buddy bitched about the tint but finished top 5 using them. I have shot the match 5 times times with leicas (3200 and 3000) and I’ll take the sigs again based on the much smaller laser, speed, ability to enter temperature, ability to center reticle, and instant dope.

That being said if I was roing a match or glassing I’d use the Leicas all day. If their glass is a 10 the Sigs are a 7. But at 2/3 the price and better features (for competition) they are far from unusable. Hoping the next Leica model will improve the features and shrink/align the laser as they would be a home run for all things. I feel for now they are almost like having two different tools depending on the job.
Good to know. I’m hoping to shoot a CD match later this or next year, I’ve been doing NRL Hunter and local PRS mostly. My Sig 3K’s were not bad as far as tint and I don’t have any time behind the 10k’s. The Leica’s would be much improved with a laser and display like the Sigs where all info came up at same time.

I think it was Chris Way’s podcast that he mentioned people not finding targets because of the tint on the SIGs and borrowing Vortex Fury’s or whatever else to use on day 2-3 of the match. Again, I wasn’t there and I also know different people have different eyes so it may matter more to some than others.

I went with Leica’s for now, might change that down the road but I do really like the image quality.

Ideally someone would make one with everything we want, as you said if they do they’ll likely dominate the market.
 
As I finished up the Leica Geovid 32 Pro review, I got to thinking it might be interesting to take a look at the Sig Kilo 10K-ABS HD this year as well. It seems like this is a big year for LRF binos. The timing is right for one thing. Field style matches seem to be gaining popularity for one thing. But perhaps even bigger is the number of makers partnering with Applied Ballistics for their software development and ballistics solver. Both the Leica Geovid Pro's and the Sig Kilo 10k's can of course run AB elite from the device. Despite running the same software though, I think these two binos will prove quite different when it comes to the areas of performance in which they most excel. I have already seen the exceptional optical performance and superbly comfortable ergonomics of the Leicas and I expect the Sig to show some unique strengths when it comes to it's laser as well as it's display and menu system. I think the compare and contrast will make for some excellent analysis of these two products each of which I expect to sell well have many happy customers.

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Sig Kilo 10K- ABS HD binos and a Sierra 6BDS 3-18x44mm rifle scope to pair with it.

While taking a look at the Kilo 10K binos I also thought it would be really interesting to examine Sig's BDX 2.0 system. This is their system wherein you pair ballistic calculator equipped LRF binos with a scope capable of illuminating the reticle at the point calculated to be the correct aiming solution for a target ranged by the binos. There have been a number of products over the years that provided this sort of automatic, reticle shows you where to shoot, functionality. Most have been scopes with a rangefinder and calculator built in such as the Burris Eliminator series, Swarovski dS, and the much hyped TrackingPoint system. Sig's BDX concept is an ecosystem instead of a single all in one unit. With BDX, the user can pair any in a range of rangefinding products with any in a range of rifle scopes. I think the system will be interesting to examine. I want to see both what an experienced precision rifle shooter can get out of it and also what performance a novice going down the instruction sheet might expect.

Given the length the Geovid review got to, and the fact I expect the 10K review to be essentially the same length, the 10k review will be a separate article from the BDX 2.0 analysis. Oh, and the products arrived yesterday, as you probably guessed from the pic.
 
The Sig reps were at the Leupold NRL Hunter match in Cheney Washington and I shot their BDX system on the range on sight-in day. They had a whole team of about 6 guys there, including the engineer that worked on the 10K's. (I told him that the display was great but they needed better glass with less tint, lol).

The BDX was cool, not really applicable for serious long range work but I was getting hits with it mounted on a SIG Cross 308 at 500 yards on 2moa or smaller steel. The rep would range it, I would hold the red dot and then hold wind as an estimate and send it.

If I remember right the reticle was not set up well for wind, I don't think there was any kind of moa or mil hashmarks. So you're just holding off in space and guessing but elevation seemed pretty dead-on. For Joe-Fudd hunter it is an interesting system that actually seemed to work.
 
So did you get any response from the Sig guy about the blue tint?
He said it was necessary with current lense-coating technology to enable a bright screen display.

I’m not sure they realize how much people don’t seem to like the tint. Engineers rarely think the same as people using the equipment, tale as old as time.

To be clear: I’m not saying the 10ks are unusable, I don’t use them and haven’t played with them much. Seems like there are lots who don’t like them and lots who do for the awesome laser and great display.