The Big 3

[THEIS]

Hi,

Well I am sure we have some very healthy and fit people here on the form.

So my question is in regards to the "Big 3" Lifts.
How often do you perform those lifts and how often do you perform accessory lifts that help with those Big 3 lifts?
Also--what are some of the accessory lifts you like/prefer that have helped you up your Big 3?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Rstrick0352]

Deadlift and clean on Monday, bench Wednesday, back/front squat Friday, and runs on Tuesday and Thursday; long intervals/distance on tuesday and agility/sprints on Thursday. The days with the benchmark lifts have lots of accessory work to support them on those days as well as a circuit for conditioning. All based off of maxes for those lifts. Saturday’s are a recovery day that consists of whatever dumb partner CrossFit workout my wife’s gym prescribes. I do that programming in 6 week intervals where at the end I retest my maxes to build the programming for the next 6 weeks. I’m stuck repeating my third interval because this deployment workup has not been conducive to me working out 2+ hours every day.

 

[Rerun7]

Depends on how many times I lift a week. I always build my routines around the big compound movements.

If I’m doing an upper lower split then I’ll do the big compound lift first then follow up with either a similar lift (ie bench to incline) or an accessory at higher reps (ie bench to flys) for every major muscle group.

Right now I’m doing some event specific training that requires more cardio/endurance so my lifting is 2x a week where I do a full body routine made of primarily the big 5 (bench, squat, deadlift, overhead press, barbell rows). Basically a 5x5 routine but I like doing a 4x6 rep scheme personally.

Then another 4 days of running or obstacle training.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

@Rerun7
So if you were in the size/strength building program where you wanted to focus on the Big 5 with a 4x6 scheme....
You pick 1 of the Big 5 as your primary lift for that day and accessory lifts rest of the workout?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[Rerun7]

Hi,

@Rerun7
So if you were in the size/strength building program where you wanted to focus on the Big 5 with a 4x6 scheme....
You pick 1 of the Big 5 as your primary lift for that day and accessory lifts rest of the workout?

Sincerely,
Theis

I usually do more than one on that day. I change up my routine on a regular basis but let’s use the example of push/pull/legs. My routine would look like this.

Push:
Bench 4x6
Overhead press 4x6
Flys 4x15
Dumbbell shoulder raise 4x15
Tricep rope or bar 4x15
Dips to failure 3x

Pull:
Barbell rows 4x6
Pull ups to failure 4x
Incline rows 4x6
Lat pull down 4x15
Curls 4x12-15
Core - random, always weighted

Legs:
Squat 4x6
Calf raise 4x6
Leg extensions 4x15
Hamstring curls 4x15
Seated calf raise 4x15
(I’ll also throw in a straight leg deadlift or lower back exercise if I have time)


I like to hit the big compound stuff with low rep, heavy weight and then follow it up with an accessory lift at a higher rep range. Notice I really don’t do many isolation excercises either. I try to keep movements compound whenever possible. I also keep all workouts to an hour max so the intensity is high. Rest for approx 90 seconds and back on it again. A little longer rest on leg day.

I’ll do a routine like this for a couple months then then swap up excercises, rep ranges, starting order, etc. my philosophy is lift as heavy as you can, mix it up regularly and incorporate as many compound movements as possible.

 

[akg102]

In the end, the frequency/volume/intensity of squats and deadlifts depend 100% on your goals. Do you want to just get strong? Do you want to get big and then strong? Do you just want to get big?

I know it may not seem intuitive, but each goal has its own program design. For me, I'm in the twilight of my peak testosterone production and want to eek out every last bit of muscle I can add to my frame. Strength is largely a result of neural adaptation and lifting at high intensities. Muscle mass is primarily progressive overload, in relation to volume or the amount of work you do.

 

[THEIS]

Hi,

So do the strong vs big comparisons fall inline with the bulk first then loose or loose first then bulk type conversations?

Is there a scientific approach that puts which should be done first in regards to strong vs big or is there truly a medium ground in which both are directly affected and improved simultaneously?

Sincerely,
Theis

 

[akg102]

Good question --

The Massing/Cutting dilemma isn't really part of the strength vs size debate. With 99% certainty, I can tell you that you want to use a hypertrophy (get big) based program when you do either cutting or massing. The program that produces the highest anabolic effects and leads to the most muscle gain WILL also preserve the most muscle mass while cutting.

Generally, hypertrophy programs (get big) are preferable early and often in your training career. You can induce hypertrophy with higher volumes of work with MUCH lighter loads. You're weaker if you've just started training and can therefore provide the required overload without stressing your joints/ligaments with the high intensity (weight) loads that are required if you're already very strong.

There is definitely a link between strength and size. You will get stronger as you get bigger, but you'll never be as strong as you could be without focusing, consistently, on a strength-based program.

This is a very crude, oversimplified example, but I think the point is made clearer. Think of your muscle mass as a tank that holds a proportionate amount of liquid -- the liquid is analogous to your strength. If your tank gets larger and contains 10% liquid, you are holding more liquid over time, but not near as much as if you just focused on filling the tank. Larger tanks have the ability to hold more liquid, but may not contain more liquid than a smaller tank. More muscular individuals MAY be stronger than smaller individuals, but there's no guarantee that this is the case. What is certain, is that a person has the ability to be stronger when they are bigger than when they were smaller. This is why strongmen, who go for raw totals, are giants. (Think 6'9 400lbs)

 

[akg102]

In regards to the massing/cutting debate, I think that the answer is rather nuanced. As a beginner, if you cut you're going to look like a twig AND waste a portion of your 'newbie gains' training in a calorie-restricted state. If you bulk at an already high BF%, you will add muscle maximally, but will be much fatter and the proportion of muscle to fat gain will not be optimal. The leaner you are at the start of a massing phase, the higher the amount of muscle per lb of bodyfat you'll gain.

The ONLY time I'd ever suggest a 'Recomp' is when you're a complete beginner. And if that's the case, you can simultaneously lose fat and build muscle. This is also the ONLY time in your entire training career that you'll be able to do both simultaneously, unless anabolics are used.

A Recomp would look something like this:

M - Full Body + 200kcal surplus
T - Rest + 500kcal deficit
W - Full Body + 200kcal surplus
Th - Rest + 500kcal deficit
F - Full Body + 200kcal surplus
Sa - Rest + 500kcal deficit
Su - Rest + 500kcal deficit

A Recomp, by definition, is a slower process and it comes down to your level of motivation. Over a 6mo period, as a beginner, you can lose up to 12lbs of fat and probably gain 5-15lbs of muscle. IF you don't think you can do this for 3-6mo without losing motivation, I would always advise a cut first. You're missing out on easy muscle gains, but that won't limit your overall potential. Losing fat and getting lean is its own source of motivation and would be much better if you'd like to reveal your lean base.

As a note, massing becomes easier when you're leaner. You can more accurately gauge the amount of fat gain and set landmarks for when it's time to cut again. Typically, I won't bulk over 15% bodyfat, or at least when I can't see my abs anymore.

If you just want to get strong, ignore all of my advice above.

 

[Rerun7]

There are entire books written on cutting/bulking/recomping.

What goal are you trying to achieve?

Personally, I started off with just wanting to look better. I was at around 23% BF so I had to start with cutting. I also started lifting properly and cleaned up my eating. In the first year I had dropped almost 30lbs of fat and gained muscle at the same time (recomp). I was down to about 10% BF at that point so I went to bulking. Bulked until about 15% BF and then cut. Rinse and repeat. That’s the typical cycle. Right now I’m focused purely on BEING in great shape vs just looking in great shape. That means not going on the bulking/cutting cycle and really focusing on strength, work capacity and endurance.

It all comes down to what you want to achieve and tailor a plan around that.

 

[BGE541]

I do the Big 3, 3 times a week, 5x5.

Start low, use good form, buy a good (Inzer) weight belt and enjoy.

 

[MarinePMI]

Hi,

So do the strong vs big comparisons fall inline with the bulk first then loose or loose first then bulk type conversations?

Is there a scientific approach that puts which should be done first in regards to strong vs big or is there truly a medium ground in which both are directly affected and improved simultaneously?

Sincerely,
Theis

Theis,

Might I recommend a book? "The Barbell Prescription"

https://aasgaardco.com/store/books

A ton of information, and the companion book (for older people) to the Starting Strength Basic Barbell Training book. Has a lot of the scientific data to support effective programming, especially once we're over 40.

As to the "big three", I subscribe to the "big four" (BP, DL, OHP and SQT). I think volume/frequency will depend on where you are training wise. Typically, 3 times a week is hard enough when on a novice linear progression. But, once your body adapts to the point of diminishing returns, intermediate programming is generally what most people transition to, which is usually a four day split. This is done to allow more volume, but lower intensity (heavy sets). Some will do a push/pull routine, others a H/L, H/L. some a one focused lift per day. It really depends on the individual.

The reason for this variety is because we all respond differently in the "intermediate" phase, especially as we age. Each person's individual genetics drive how they respond to stimulus/stress of lifting (coupled with the amount of production of testosterone, ability to sleep, protein synthesis efficiency, and effectiveness of the alpha receptors in the muscles). Some are more responsive to heavy sets and less volume, some are more responsive to more volume with minimal heavy sets. This can also be driven (to a lesser degree) by lifestyle, body type (ecto, meso, endo), sleep regimen and eating habits. IIRC, after around 36yrs-42yrs up through 70yrs of age, the responsiveness of men to the stimulus of lifting weights (stress) is all over the map. Hence why you get the "My program is better because xxxx", and the (literally) thousands of variations of programs bring hawked by everyone from the very knowledgeable to the outright hacks. Bottom line, you're going to have to dip your toe in the water and find out. Make sure you keep a lifting logbook. This becomes crucial in understanding if you're making progress over the long term. Starting out, it is easy to see progress. But the longer you do it, the more complicated the programming can get, and a logbook will help you see trends.

Anyways, sorry for the long prose. Currently I'm on intermediate programming (been at this for 2 1/2 years now) doing a H/L, L/H program curretly with two compound lifts a day (and recovering from a 2.75cm pec tear near the sternum). Looks like this:

Monday: Heavy Squats, Light Bench Press (Volume)
Tuesday: Heavy Over Head Press, Light Deadlifts (or some Snatch Grip Rack Pulls at DL back off set weight for volume)
Wednesday: Recovery day
Thursday: Light squats, Heavy Bench Press
Friday: Light OHP, Heavy Dead Lifts
Saturday: Recovery day
Sunday: Recovery day


I tend to stick with 3x5's for heavy sets (except Dead Lift, that stays a single heavy set of 5 reps), and 5x5 for volume and have seen some good results (for me). Once I hit intermediate level, it has become all about recovery (eating and sleeping enough). Not an easy thing when travelling a lot, but progress is possible, it just takes a little longer and a I have to be more patient knowing that interruptions to programming tend to create small (irritating) set backs. But, the over all trend still shows my numbers growing (albeit) slowly. Not bad for someone in their late 40's IMHO.

HTH some,

 

[winniedonkey]

I use the 5/3/1 programs. I've got a good amount of body damage and I've been crushing my training with a better understanding of programming and being smart in my accessory work. I do the big 3 plus OHP every week. I use trap deads in place of normal deads.

 

[benchmstr]

Hi,

Well I am sure we have some very healthy and fit people here on the form.

So my question is in regards to the "Big 3" Lifts.
How often do you perform those lifts and how often do you perform accessory lifts that help with those Big 3 lifts?
Also--what are some of the accessory lifts you like/prefer that have helped you up your Big 3?

Sincerely,
Theis

I am a competitive powerlifter, and have done skeiko for years.

I am a big believer in bench 3x a week, squat 2x a week, and deadlift 1x week....the deadlift has so much of a strain on the CNS that anything over 1x per week and you really start losing the positive progress of the movement.

bench

 

[jsel10]

Stronglifts 5x5 3 days a week. Light cardio 2 days a week for active recovery. Keep it simple. Nothing beats the basics.

 

[BOISCOID]

If you’re new to strength programming or lifting in general, with the goal of being as strong as possible I would recommend the following.

Buy and read Rippletoe’s “Starting Strength” for 1-1.5 years. Yes, there other beginner programs out there like 5x5 and greyskull L.P. However, I believe rippletoe’s book sets you up the best for success. Builds a strong foundation, gives a plethora of cues, and assits in perfecting your form.

After you lose out on your linear progression (aka noobie gains). Move to Wendler’s 5/3/1. Stay with his program until you truthfully enter the realm of advance lifting. Duration will be anywhere from 3-5 years depending on work ethic, diet and most importantly injuries.

For reference I’m an intermidate lifter on the cusp of breaking into advance level and programming after 4 years of actually programming. Mainly due to sports, and work related injuries along with a brief period of burn out and lack of work ethic.

Personal stats for more reference - BW 200-210lbs; DL 435 ; Squat 360 ; BP 280 ; OHP 165.

My biggest piece of advice is lift like a technician not a strongman. Strength is a marathon not a sprint, the technician will out last the strongman and spend less down time from injuries.

 

[benchmstr]

If you’re new to strength programming or lifting in general, with the goal of being as strong as possible I would recommend the following.

Buy and read Rippletoe’s “Starting Strength” for 1-1.5 years. Yes, there other beginner programs out there like 5x5 and greyskull L.P. However, I believe rippletoe’s book sets you up the best for success. Builds a strong foundation, gives a plethora of cues, and assits in perfecting your form.

After you lose out on your linear progression (aka noobie gains). Move to Wendler’s 5/3/1. Stay with his program until you truthfully enter the realm of advance lifting. Duration will be anywhere from 3-5 years depending on work ethic, diet and most importantly injuries.

For reference I’m an intermidate lifter on the cusp of breaking into advance level and programming after 4 years of actually programming. Mainly due to sports, and work related injuries along with a brief period of burn out and lack of work ethic.

Personal stats for more reference - BW 200-210lbs; DL 435 ; Squat 360 ; BP 280 ; OHP 165.

My biggest piece of advice is lift like a technician not a strongman. Strength is a marathon not a sprint, the technician will out last the strongman and spend less down time from injuries.

I have totaled elite in 3 different weight classes over the years and I will agree that this is one of the most important statements ever!

the biggest problem I see with lifters is that they are too clinical. while its great to have perfect form, sometimes you just have to grit your teeth and rip that shit. I just don't see enough torture and kill it on the bar these days.

bench

 

[MarinePMI]

I think that there is an extremely fine line between "grip it and rip it" and striving for "perfect form". Neither mind set is necessarily bad (or good), but the sweet spot is somewhere in the middle. Strive to be too perfect in form, and you miss the metal toughness by over analyzing form, when you should be just gritting your teeth and getting after it (facing the fear and pain). OTOH, if you just go "grip it and rip it" you will definitely hurt yourself (coming from a guy that out a 3cm tear his pectoral at the sterum, trying to push too hard).

Patience, intelligent programming, persistence and metal toughness are where it's at IME (coming from a narrow assed, middle age guy staring at 50 that isn't huge, but a damned sight stronger than most people my weight/size).