The Case of the PredatAR **please help**

[Thebelly]

I bought a LaRue PredatAR 7.62 with a 16" barrel.

Using BH match ammo, I was able to get some good groups out of it. Those groups are on page 6 of elfster's 100 yard shout out, round 2.

I felt good enough about it that I took the package to Rifles Only for a class there. When I got there, the rifle wouldn't group well. I thought it was me. Both the primary and alternate instructor shot groups out of it, and it was determined that its a 4" gun. The ammo used was M118LR.

I immediately got in touch with LaRue Tactical to get this fixed. They had it for a week, shot 14, 3-shot groups and they determined that the rifle meets the factory specs.

HERE'S WHERE I NEED YOUR HELP, HIDE MEMBERS!!!

Here are the targets they sent me:

Here are the two questions I have?

1) DOES THIS GUN HAVE A CONSISTENT POINT OF IMPACT BETWEEN THE GROUPS? (The assumption is that there was a consistent POA)

2) WHAT IS THE ACCURACY LEVEL OF THIS GUN, in MOA?

For any of the background on this, please see this thread, starting on page two: http://www.snipershide.com/shooting/snipers-hide-semi-auto-rifles/211285-larue-obr-7-62-a.html

Please help me interpret this data provided by LaRue....

Thanks so much in advance!!

 

[800mZero]

The rifle is a 1moa guaranteed rifle, looks like you got that and less. That said every rifle has its loads that it like better than others. I got a pss that cuts the same hole with fgm, however opens up to an inch with winchester match.

 

[Thebelly]

The rifle is a 1moa guaranteed rifle, looks like you got that and less. That said every rifle has its loads that it like better than others. I got a pss that cuts the same hole with fgm, however opens up to an inch with winchester match.

So, what about the POI?

 

[800mZero]

It looks pretty cosistenet to me that your hitting upper left consistently.

 

[Thebelly]

Thank you for your input.

 

[USMAGator]

The groups look good, but I can see what you're getting at with the somewhat wandering POI. Overall it seems to be consistently high and a hair left. Your assessment of 4MOA taking all shots together looks to be right, but a 4MOA gun shouldn't shoot a bunch of 1" groups. Do you know if those groups were all shot by the same guy, with the same optic, in the same setting? How hot was the barrel? A lightweight contour barrel like that on the Predatar might show vertical stringing like that as it heats up?

If you have the rifle and can get to the range, it might be telling to shoot a few groups of 10+ rounds. If the issue is the gun then shooting 10 round (or more) groups will almost certainly show it. Otherwise it looks to be an optic/mount/shooter issue. The rifle is just a dumb machine....if it's a 4" gun, it won't consistently shoot 1" groups like that and then change where it puts them between groups.

 

[elfster1234]

same ammo used during the shootout thread?

 

[lwrkeysfisher]

Larue's 1MOA guarantee is for 3 round groups. I've owned two 7.62 PredatARs and both would shoot sub-MOA for 3 round groups. I had one that would still shoot 1-1.5MOA for 5 or 10 round groups and another one that opened up to 6-7" after 3-4 rounds. I ended up selling them both---kinda regret selling the good one.

It has to do with the light barrel contour, heat, and stress relief, Frank Green (Bartlein) had a couple excellent posts about it in the bolt forum a while back.

If your not happy with the 3 round results I would sell it, or better yet, send it off to GAP and have it re-barreled.

 

[Thebelly]

same ammo used during the shootout thread?

Nope. The ammo for the shoot out was BH match. The ammo larue used was FGMM.

 

[elfster1234]

all I got to say is ammo ammo ammo, and a boat load can happen between a 3 to 5shot group... if im really testing a rifle and I can get 10shots sub-moa, then i'm happy, BUT i'm using some kick ass reloaded ammo... I would never do that with off the shelf ammo most likely.

 

[jevan126]

Looks pretty consistent to me and accuracy looks pretty damn good too, nice rifle have fun.

 

[MikeeBooshay]

Hmmmmm, looking at the shooter line on the target, looks like two different trigger monkeys. First target is definately the best of the lot.

I'd like to see groups with more shots. Three shot strings isn't enough data sample to get good info, IMHO. I'd also try a couple different ammunition types, I have seen rifles be 3 MOA with known good ammo, be sub MOA with an ammo change.

I am sure this was asked in the other thread, but did you swap scopes? Been bitten by that bug before too - " this scope is good, don't have to sweat that"...... turns out, I did. Had it happen with NF, Burris, Nikon and Leopuld, multiple times. I had heard of it with US Optics, but did not see it.

I'll say this - both of my OBR's shoot much better than this. The 7.62 is in the 500 S/N range, and I let it go over 2000 rounds without cleaning. Got best 308 at a match with it too, in that dirty condition. Mine appears to shoot anything, but...... I have a buddy with one - his is a bit more picky. FGMM is good in his, but cheaper stuff, and handloads, not so much. Really hot handloads - does not like those at all. His did get better with a spring change, after spending the afternoon in Leander, burning their ammo to troubleshoot. I'd check that too.

 

[Flyboy22]

Jeeze... I might be out of line here, but I'm pretty unimpressed with the groups people are posting from their Larue rifles. I am a novice shooter (ie <1000 rounds ever fired from a rifle in my life), shooting from a bench with a Daniel Defense M4. It has a non-match 16" chrome-lined barrel.

Look what it can do with match ammo:

100 Yards:



And at 300M!


This performance appears, from my testing so far, to be repeatable and consistent.

 

[George Mac]

Shooting the 556 vs the 308 is the difference between a garden hose and a fire hose. The 308 semi auto is a different animal completely.

 

[Flyboy22]

Shooting the 556 vs the 308 is the difference between a garden hose and a fire hose. The 308 semi auto is a different animal completely.

I feel like that's probably an exaggeration, but I'm sure you have more experience than I do. Still, a good shooter should be able to drive the rifle to its capability--and it just doesn't seem like most of the Larue results I've seen live up to the legend. I don't doubt the quality of the machining, I'm sure it's excellent. Their rifles certainly are more accurate than "average." But they just don't seem to deliver exceptional results like GAP-10's and JP's.

For what it's worth, I had an OBR on order for 9 months or so... but after enough reports like this and some more research on the alternatives, cancelled it to order a GAP-10 in 6.5 Creed. In the end I'll take a sub 1/2 minute gun over a really pretty 1 minute gun any day.

 

[BERTMAN77MK2]

I agree, the 308 gas guns are a different breed and need the best barrels avail to reach their potential. I have nevet had luck with any LW barrel on s gas gun unless I waited loooong period of time between shots. The only factory gun that shot well for me was an Armalite AR10T, notice the the barrel contour.

 

[jaycoux]

A suggestion...
Shoot 10 shot or 5 shot group, normal. Shoot them one after the next. Dont come off the rifle until you are done. Let the barrel cool off, then shoot another 5 or 10 shot group slowly, say one round a minute. Do not come off the gun until you are done.

After that you will have your answer.

You can either keep the rifle, sell it or have george rebarrel it as someone else suggested. That may be the best advice yet...

J

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

You know what? When I look at the Larue website here LaRue Tactical | The Dead Center of Precision I do not see anywhere regarding any accuracy guarantee. I found only one rifle with a target sheet, which is sort of impressive.

So I ask why anyone would buy one of their rifles for so much money ($3,370) without a guarantee?

Meanwhile, here is a link that does have a guarantee: Accuracy Guarantee AND their semi-auto rifle is $2,750!!!

Please decide for yourselves.

 

[jaycoux]

You know what? When I look at the Larue website here LaRue Tactical | The Dead Center of Precision I do not see anywhere regarding any accuracy guarantee. I found only one rifle with a target sheet, which is sort of impressive.

So I ask why anyone would buy one of their rifles for so much money ($3,370) without a guarantee?

Meanwhile, here is a link that does have a guarantee: Accuracy Guarantee AND their semi-auto rifle is $2,750!!!

Please decide for yourselves.

They must have taken it down for the predatars and predatobrs. I wonder why? Maybe because of the barrel situation? The obr still has the same guarantee listed on the site. Of note, no obrs are currently shipping from what i have been reading.

 

[poison123]

A suggestion...
Shoot 10 shot or 5 shot group, normal. Shoot them one after the next. Dont come off the rifle until you are done. Let the barrel cool off, then shoot another 5 or 10 shot group slowly, say one round a minute. Do not come off the gun until you are done.

After that you will have your answer.

You can either keep the rifle, sell it or have george rebarrel it as someone else suggested. That may be the best advice yet...

J

Best advice is bolded. You'd have what everyone wanted and ordered with the PredOBR.....a light weight chassis with the precision barrel.....and that would probably piss off ML.

 

[BS68280]

PredatARs are not supposed to be the precision rifle of the family. They came with a 1.5" guarantee and three shot groups, they are supposed to be a lightweight hunting rifle. If you bought it and had it confused with the OBR that is on you. Sell it or rebarrel it if you are not happy with it. IMO a predatAR with a heavy barrel from somewhere will be a dream rifle.

 

[BCP]

Those groups don't look as bad as I thought they would. A couple 5 shot groups would be more telling.

Personally I would never buy an expensive AR with a pencil barrel for reasons like this. I don't know what to tell you, you're obviously not happy. If it were a regular, normal company I'd say send it back and ask for it to be rebarreled with a medium profile 16-18" barrel. That should not be too much to ask. But it's Larue and they go from being cool to insane depending on how the wind blows. So good luck on that one.

 

[Thebelly]

Those groups don't look as bad as I thought they would. A couple 5 shot groups would be more telling.

I asked them to use 5-shot groups. They declined stating that they had already used up a bunch of high dollar ammo testing this rifle.

My main concern here is that the POI shifts from group to group. In one group, the rifle shoots two inches above the POA. In another group, it shoots almost dead on. I don't think that lends itself well to a gun that can be trusted.

I'm getting some lighter loads just to see if it will do better with that. I'll shoot it this weekend and report back with targets (and hopefully 3rd party verification) showing that this rifle either works or doesn't.

I kinda like the idea of having it re-barreled by GAP. Seeing as GAP is pretty much a direct competitor to LaRue, it would definitely be interesting to see. I agree that having a 'true' PredatOBR (skinny gun with a heavy barrel) would be an incredible combo....

 

[GUNNER10]

i would tend to agree with rifles only, not sure that i would go as so far as to say its a 4" gun but it is what it is.

1. i would say that when given the same shooter the POI apears to be within 1 MOA
2. accucracy, take any given shooters target, JW, MS, or ?, turn two 3 shot groups into an overlapping 6 shot group and that is your group.

theres alot of groups that would be over 2 MOA.

but i go back to my orginal comments in another thread. thats about what can be expected out of such a barrel profile. there is nothing magical about OBR's or predatads or what ever they are pimping this year.

nobody would expect an armalite ar10 with an infantry weight barrel to group SUBMOA, but for some reason, Mark has gotten people to buy into silly levels of accuracy from his rifles.

your looking for somthing that doesnt exist in the platform you purchased.

want accruacy, have krieger or bartline spin you a barrel with custom chamber, have Gap or a good smith screw it toghether and stop wasting your time with in the Dillo of the month club.

are there some that shoot well, sure, Wes has one, but i wouldnt expect those results to be typical

 

[Skeld1]

Barrel weight...I mean, isn't it possible to shoot a good group out of a pencil barreled bolt action rifle? It really should only suffer when the barrel heats up correct? Not to confuse this issue more...

 

[FALex]

One of my buddy's has purchased 3 (maybe 4) OBR's. He could not get them under 1", not one of them, and it is definitely not him. He has gutted them and re-barreled them. They are OBR's in receivers, only. The meat and tatoes are JP. Now they shoot more precision-like. Then again, they are named "Optimized Battle Rifles," which implies nothing of precision work. It smacks more of FAL than precision rifle/

 

[BCP]

I kinda like the idea of having it re-barreled by GAP.

You should not have to rebarrel a 3400$ rifle. What be into it 4000???? Fuck that.

My take is either sell it or call up Larue and kiss their asses/suck their dicks to see if they will rebarrel it into a defacto PredaOBR like in the other guy's thread. His seems to shoot well.

 

[bp7178]

Assuming all of those targets had the same point-of-aim, if you were to overlay them together that composite group would look like complete shit. The extreme spread just glancing at the targets would be 3 1/2".

How they test the accuracy of a gun with a 3-round group is beyond me, especially when it was returned having accuracy problems.

 

[buckjay]

Assuming all of those targets had the same point-of-aim, if you were to overlay them together that composite group would look like complete shit. The extreme spread just glancing at the targets would be 3 1/2".

How they test the accuracy of a gun with a 3-round group is beyond me, especially when it was returned having accuracy problems.

Yep. Its an absolute joke that they make accuracy claims based on 3 round groups. I've seen many sub half MOA 3 round groups with Federal XM193... and we all know the ammo is at best 2moa capable.

 

[Thebelly]

Assuming all of those targets had the same point-of-aim, if you were to overlay them together that composite group would look like complete shit. The extreme spread just glancing at the targets would be 3 1/2".

How they test the accuracy of a gun with a 3-round group is beyond me, especially when it was returned having accuracy problems.

Here's with every bullet hole on one target.. Remember the grid is a .5"x.5".

 

[Thebelly]

Yep. Its an absolute joke that they make accuracy claims based on 3 round groups. I've seen many sub half MOA 3 round groups with Federal XM193... and we all know the ammo is at best 2moa capable.

Here's the 'center' of each group. Each dot represents one of the 3-shot groups from the targets in the first post.

 

[Thebelly]

I purposely didn't include these two interpretations in this thread for two reasons:

1. I wanted someone besides me to think of this (make sure it's not just me over-thinking things).

2. I already posted these targets elsewhere, and I didn't want to shotgun the entire forum (so I referenced the other thread in my first post...no use in clogging the place up).

 

[NevadaZielmeister]

They must have taken it down for the predatars and predatobrs. I wonder why? Maybe because of the barrel situation? The obr still has the same guarantee listed on the site. Of note, no obrs are currently shipping from what i have been reading.

You are incorrect. No where on their website does it say anything regarding an "accuracy guarantee". You are confusing this with the features page where it states "Accuracy: Average size of a 5-shot group, expressed in Minutes of Angle (MOA) less than 1 MOA (approx)". This is NOT a guarantee, only a feature.

And with the groups above being over an inch, it appears to be a optional feature.

 

[JeffLebowski]

if it was a tac ops rifle it'd be 10 shot under .3

Great contribution to the thread.

 

[long range newbie]

was just kidding, sorry... I deleted the post.

 

[jaycoux]

You are incorrect. No where on their website does it say anything regarding an "accuracy guarantee". You are confusing this with the features page where it states "Accuracy: Average size of a 5-shot group, expressed in Minutes of Angle (MOA) less than 1 MOA (approx)". This is NOT a guarantee, only a feature.

And with the groups above being over an inch, it appears to be a optional feature.

I think the guarantee is implied by stating that your group (if you don't screw it up) should be less than 1 MOA. It is slightly vague, I will give you that. In the case of the PredatAr, the original wording on the website was "1 moa." It did not say less than 1 moa, it just said 1 moa.

j

 

[bp7178]

Its a .308 with a lightweight barrel...I wouldn't be happy with the accuracy, but I'm not totally surprised either.

There is a lot of vertical in the composite group. I'd love to know how they were shot and in what order.

I would re-barrel it with a heavier profile barrel. I think the best features of the Larue rifles are the handguard, upper and lower. In particular, the way they all fit together. I absolutely love how the handguard mounts to the upper.

There are many ways to save weight on a rifle. The barrel, IMO, is not one of them. Especially on anything that has a rifle scope as the primary optic. IE, not something with a RDS used to bang steel or play johnny plate carrier at the 7 yard line.

 

[Thebelly]

The LaRue rep stated to me in an email, "We found the FGMM 175 avg .94” and the 118LR avg 1.14” This rifle is within our specifications for a PredatAR rifle."

A reasonable assumption would be that 1 MOA is their standard....unless they shoot at 50yards....

Anyone have any idea how far their test range is?

 

[mavrick10_2000]

I feel like that's probably an exaggeration, but I'm sure you have more experience than I do. Still, a good shooter should be able to drive the rifle to its capability--and it just doesn't seem like most of the Larue results I've seen live up to the legend. I don't doubt the quality of the machining, I'm sure it's excellent. Their rifles certainly are more accurate than "average." But they just don't seem to deliver exceptional results like GAP-10's and JP's.

For what it's worth, I had an OBR on order for 9 months or so... but after enough reports like this and some more research on the alternatives, cancelled it to order a GAP-10 in 6.5 Creed. In the end I'll take a sub 1/2 minute gun over a really pretty 1 minute gun any day.

A good shooter with no experience driving a .308 gas gun vs a 5.56 is in for a humbling experience. I'd go as far as to say a good bolt gun shooter with no experience driving a .308 gasser is in for a humbling experience.

ETA: 12 posts???? Damn was there another upgrade that wiped out the post counts again?

 

[BCP]

I'm sure their test range is 100 yards.

Like I said earlier it's obvious you aren't happy so just sell the thing and buy one that does make you happy or see if Larue will rebarrel it with a pred-obr contour barrel. Hey they have tons and tons of them laying around...right?????

 

[jdr724]

Why don't you just send them the images showing the overlay of all the 3 shot groups and kindly ask them to explain this phenomenon?

It's too bad you posted all this here since nobody is going to want to purchase a 2nd hand rifle that can't shoot>>>>>>>>>>

 

[Thebelly]

Why don't you just send them the images showing the overlay of all the 3 shot groups and kindly ask them to explain this phenomenon?

It's too bad you posted all this here since nobody is going to want to purchase a 2nd hand rifle that can't shoot>>>>>>>>>>

I sent them everything and they are not responding.

I'm also at a cross roads. If the gun doesn't shoot, I won't sell it saying that it shoots. It's not what an honest and upright man would do.

 

[BS68280]

You should not have to rebarrel a 3400$ rifle. What be into it 4000???? Fuck that.

My take is either sell it or call up Larue and kiss their asses/suck their dicks to see if they will rebarrel it into a defacto PredaOBR like in the other guy's thread. His seems to shoot well.

Not sure what kind of rounding you do but a 7.62 PredatAR is $2800 assuming it was ordered after the price increase.

 

[jdr724]

My comment was to address the irony and not your integrity. I should have been more clear and I'm sorry If you felt I was trying to clip you.

Not to defend them in any way or to direct this at anyone participating here but.....you have to imagine that with a popular brand like that there are alot of people with enough money who get these rifles and cannot shoot them accordingly. They then contact the maker and over time the maker starts treating everyone(even those who have enough experience to see what you have demonstrated here) like googans.

If and when they do respond you may want to half jokingly ask them to confirm that the person who did the shooting was aiming at the center of the target for all the 3 shot groups???

 

[Thebelly]

My comment was to address the irony and not your integrity. I should have been more clear and I'm sorry If you felt I was trying to clip you.

I didn't take it that way. No worries!

 

[lte82]

A good shooter with no experience driving a .308 gas gun vs a 5.56 is in for a humbling experience. I'd go as far as to say a good bolt gun shooter with no experience driving a .308 gasser is in for a humbling experience.

In my experience, load development is much more critical in 308 gas guns than in 308 bolt guns. Where a bolt gun may group 1/2 moa with the best loads, and 1 1/2 moa with the worst, a gas gun may group 1/2 moa to 3 moa, and the accuracy node is smaller and harder to nail down. Of course that's just my opinion based on small amounts of my own emperical data, and is not statistically significant by any of the statisticians that post here.

If you want my opinion, give the gun to an experience hand loader, someone that knows how to work up a load for a rifle, and let them see what they can squeeze out of it before you ditch it. Chances are you just need to find the right load and it will be a hammer.

If not, sell it. =)

 

[Thebelly]

Another frustrating day at the range today with this rifle.

Using the same lot of M118LR that larue's shooter got an average 1.14" with, the gun shot over a 3" group today. When I took the same ammo and shot it through my MWS, it shot about 1-1.5".

To be honest, I REALLY WANT this LaRue to work.... However, I'm finding less and less reason to keep it.

Oh, and GA Precision isn't available to re-barrel this; they are too busy getting rifles out. I understand that completely. They did however, look at this thread and the other and help me try to figure it out. Now THAT is customer service: " Sure, I have no problem with helping you a gun that someone else built." Rock. Stars.

 

[BCP]

Not sure what kind of rounding you do but a 7.62 PredatAR is $2800 assuming it was ordered after the price increase.

Yeah my bad that ain't shit. I could dig the lint out of my belly button and turn it in at the recycling center for that much. Paying 2800 for a rifle that doesn't shoot is okay, just as long as it's not north of 3000...

 

[bp7178]

Another frustrating day at the range today with this rifle.

Using the same lot of M118LR that larue's shooter got an average 1.14" with, the gun shot over a 3" group today. When I took the same ammo and shot it through my MWS, it shot about 1-1.5".

To be honest, I REALLY WANT this LaRue to work.... However, I'm finding less and less reason to keep it.

Oh, and GA Precision isn't available to re-barrel this; they are too busy getting rifles out. I understand that completely. They did however, look at this thread and the other and help me try to figure it out. Now THAT is customer service: " Sure, I have no problem with helping you a gun that someone else built." Rock. Stars.

Its an AR platform. Buy a Bartlien, Kreiger or Rock Creek barrel...etc etc, with a matching bolt and stick that puppy in there yourself.

Out of curiosity, have you removed the muzzle device and given it a whirl?

 

[Thebelly]

Its an AR platform. Buy a Bartlien, Kreiger or Rock Creek barrel...etc etc, with a matching bolt and stick that puppy in there yourself.

Out of curiosity, have you removed the muzzle device and given it a whirl?

I haven't touched the muzzle device. How could this help/hurt, besides with muzzle control? I has the standard birdcage on it now.