The Everyday Sniper Episode 91 Caylen Wojcik

[Lowlight]

Caylen Episode

The Everyday Sniper Episode 91 Caylen Wojcik

Very special edition of the Everyday Sniper with Gunwerks Instructor Caylen Wojcik. He is a USMC Scout Sniper, well known for his time at Magpul and just all around great guy.

Caylen and I talk about our philosophy of precision rife training, as well as competition shooting, having come off the Gunwerks Match in Cody WY.

Topics

• Caylen Wojcik
• Gunwerks Match
• Competition Shooting
• Training
• USMC Corps Principles

Thanks for Caylen for taking the time to talk. And thanks to all the listeners and guys sharing the Everyday Sniper around the world.

 

[trob_205]

Episode was fire!

 

[Luvman]

Damnit! I’m not really into podcasts and now I have to check out the Long Range pursuit podcast too.

Really good stuff!

 

[htowncoog]

Thanks for making my drive suck less during traffic rush in Houston.

 

[TKCastle]

A question about the show. CW talked about NPA and shooters learning the fundamentals, but it got me thinking. Do you practice finding NPA on say a barricade or other improvised positions?

Just got me thinking.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Lowlight]

Finding your NPA on alternative positions is a two-part process.

In competition, you only do one of them, and that is lining up straight and square and settling in that way, most are not checking NPA the same as one would be given time and opportunity.

How you address the barricade is part of it

 

[JC0352]

A great episode! @Lowlight, you nailed the audio w/ the phone call.

The dialogue about how crazy it’s getting with bags was good to hear.

 

[ShortShooter1908]

@Lowlight I know you're sick and tried of rehasing the competition gaming and I haven't read all the threads about it, but I did have a question about why there aren't classes in the match. Limited and open kind of thing. Limited could be one bag, a tripod, and a bipod while running only specific chamberings or something like that. Let the open guys carry 2 dozen bags and a 6 Dasher that they free recoil. I'm sure this has been thought of before. I'm curious as to why we don't see it.

 

[Lowlight]

They are so dysfunctional in terms of classes,

The NRL is all open I believe there may be classes like Junior and Women, but I don't think there is a division for equipment there.

The PRS could suffer classes like that but then it's a thing for matches to manage all the Open, Tactical, Production, and once you start getting into the underserved classes, support drops off pretty fast.

A Tactical Division with limited equipment could certainly work if they were willing to try.

They seem to suffer from, "we don't think it's broke so we are not fixing it" mentality but really I just look at it as them being lazy. They know it's not what they thought once they started looking under the hood. The new owner was initially ready to make sweeping changes, after all it was said he bought to fix it, but once the reality set in, nothing changed.

 

[Diver160651]

@ShortShooter1908

If the goal is to get more shooters into shooting matches, I think we have to figure out what keeps the new shooters from attending. I do not think it is just the gear, but the perception that they'll completely fail. But it very well can also be the costs.

I actually think splitting matches by caliber might not be doing what we really want, the same for equipment. I think the answer to equipment use, is in clearer COFs.

At some of the matches there is a secondary match with in the match for something like a 308 while the PRS has a Production class. Our local match also tried similar, it wasn't addressing the gaming or really encouraging less experienced shooters. What we ended up with was, the better shooters bringing their 308s out, new shooters still felt intimidated. They ended up dropping the class and tightening the COF with a few simple words - like "only" and "no". Of course, this is a smaller local match and it is easier to make changes.

The match director is trying to figure out the answers to a format that will encourage new shooters. They are considering using experience or past performance to give new and less accomplished, a time handicap. Other ideas floated are to create a special new shooter type of match with people helping at each stage or even a person who might coach within a squad as a regular match moves forward. We had a train up day, but it didn't really get the shooters on the course. The shooters would come to the spin up day, but often way overwhelmed during the match. Anyway, they don't know the best path forward.

We're actually asking for feedback like yours in a 10 question match format survey I just posted to try to figure out what might work best.

Please check it out an maybe leave comments - hopefully we come up with an idea that people shooting the matches currently like as well as one new shooters would enjoy.

 

[M113A3]

I am way behind in the threads but what I have picked up from the podcasts and some posts did not gel for me until I saw this in a match video. I am not trying to call out anyone or complain about a specific match or group. Being a noob when I saw this my thought was what's the point?

I have only been in two local matches and hope to get into my third (each has a progressively harder COF) which limits extra gear i.e. 200-600 no rear bags or artificial support.

I like the thought of focusing on fundamentals and the challenge of making do with what you have and apply this in a more practical\tactical real world situation.

@Diver160651 - I will have to check out your post since I am in the SF Bay Area

 

[Diver160651]

I am in the SF Bay Area

Send me a PM and I'll send you my number. I live on the Peninsula, if you can get a weekday free, we could go out and shoot. It is a private club so usually midweek, nobody is there

 

[Deleted member 113831]

They are so dysfunctional in terms of classes,

The NRL is all open I believe there may be classes like Junior and Women, but I don't think there is a division for equipment there.

The PRS could suffer classes like that but then it's a thing for matches to manage all the Open, Tactical, Production, and once you start getting into the underserved classes, support drops off pretty fast.

A Tactical Division with limited equipment could certainly work if they were willing to try.

They seem to suffer from, "we don't think it's broke so we are not fixing it" mentality but really I just look at it as them being lazy. They know it's not what they thought once they started looking under the hood. The new owner was initially ready to make sweeping changes, after all it was said he bought to fix it, but once the reality set in, nothing changed.

Other types of shooting competitions have classes for different skill levels of shooters, while the equipment limitations are equal across the board.

There are specific qualifying skill stages to classify new shooters, so the noobs don't shoot against high masters. If a noob shoots a score that ranks him with the masters in either the qualifier or the match, then they are classified at the level appropriate to thier score going forward. So a noob could sandbag, but only once.

Scores are tabulated and recorded anyway, segregating them according to one class or another surely wouldn't require much more effort. Right?

 

[Diver160651]

^ I get that, pistol is like that.

But in positional, it really is the time that is the killer. It f’s with your head, especially new comers. What’s worse is that there is not enough new comers to for enough of a pool to really see how you did. If more time, decreases the pressure and thus mistakes, their score will rise, hopefully their desire to get better.

I am just guessing, but I’ve been exposed to lots of new shooters over the years and that’s just my takeaway.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

^ I get that, pistol is like that.

But in positional, it really is the time that is the killer. It f’s with your head, especially new comers. What’s worse is that there is not enough new comers to for enough of a pool to really see how you did. If more time, decreases the pressure and thus mistakes, their score will rise, hopefully their desire to get better.

I am just guessing, but I’ve been exposed to lots of new shooters over the years and that’s just my takeaway.

Not sure about USPSA, but in some matches, isn't time used as a scoring factor? In other words, the raw score is divided by the time, so faster time equals larger score.

Failing that, keeping all equal but the classes wouldn't do additional harm. The new shooters would still struggle with the time, but at least they would know they were on more equal footing within thier class.

 

[Diver160651]

Not sure about USPSA, but in some matches, isn't time used as a scoring factor? In other words, the raw score is divided by the time, so faster time equals larger score.

Failing that, keeping all equal but the classes wouldn't do additional harm. The new shooters would still struggle with the time, but at least they would know they were on more equal footing within thier class.

I like your logic, but would that make you shoot a match next weekend? I appreciate your input and that is a serious question, not at all disrespectful.

FWIW, I have never shot a match where the scoring is so complex. Usually, they is an RO or two that are volunteers. Their entire focus is on determining if a hit was scored, often way harder than it sounds. And then they need to brace themselves for the “dude that hit” moment. I don’t see pistol type score scheme working well for positional where the match could be strung way out (sometimes for miles) and the ROs solo satellites.

There really is not enough new blood to make a system where new shooters only shoot against themselves, or for a production class to thrive. Anyway, really the main issue I see is, that there are lots of really good shooters who are not joining matches. Why is that?

Something is keeping supper capable shooters like you, from shooting these matches. Something is keeping far less capable shooters who post and read about matches, from joining.

I do not have the answers, but I bet if we all ask enough questions, some smart person is going to provide a great answer. I bet if you had a cup of coffee, you come up with another very good idea.

Btw, I very much appreciate your input.

Edited to add: there is a standard stage that is timed as a tie breaker in some serries matches, but not for all shooters across all stages.

 

[SLG]

Not everyone who shoots well, wants to shoot matches. I do shoot matches, with every weapon, from time to time, but frankly, I get much more return for my time out of my own practice.

 

[Tree]

If there was a way to "classify" people based on standard courses and then used High in those classes/division at matches to walk the prize table then I do believe it would help get less experienced individuals to get out and shoot as they are competing against like skilled shooters and have a chance to get better gear. The stage would be part of the match so you minimze the possibility of people trying to sandbag their classification. Also if the come in first and beat x number of people in their class or above they automatically get put into the next class higher. This is similar to how pistol matches do it and seems to work pretty well. The time factor would come into play as like skilled shooters would presumably have the same issues. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

deleted

 

[Deleted member 113831]

I like your logic, but would that make you shoot a match next weekend? I appreciate your input and that is a serious question, not at all disrespectful.

FWIW, I have never shot a match where the scoring is so complex. Usually, they is an RO or two that are volunteers. Their entire focus is on determining if a hit was scored, often way harder than it sounds. And then they need to brace themselves for the “dude that hit” moment. I don’t see pistol type score scheme working well for positional where the match could be strung way out (sometimes for miles) and the ROs solo satellites.

There really is not enough new blood to make a system where new shooters only shoot against themselves, or for a production class to thrive. Anyway, really the main issue I see is, that there are lots of really good shooters who are not joining matches. Why is that?

Something is keeping supper capable shooters like you, from shooting these matches. Something is keeping far less capable shooters who post and read about matches, from joining.

I do not have the answers, but I bet if we all ask enough questions, some smart person is going to provide a great answer. I bet if you had a cup of coffee, you come up with another very good idea.

Btw, I very much appreciate your input.

Edited to add: there is a standard stage that is timed as a tie breaker in some serries matches, but not for all shooters across all stages.

Truthfully, the only thing keeping me from matches is time and distance. There is exactly one club match within 4 hours of me. There are a bunch in the opposite corner of the state (Washington), but I would have to use precious leave days in conjunction with days off, and spend a considerable amount of cash just to get there and stay, much less compete.

It is my goal however, to take that plunge and get to at least one and maybe two matches next year. I ain't afraid of getting my ass kicked. In fact, if I know I'm gonna lose anyway, I am likely to just go all caveman and see just how well I can do with minimal equipment.

As far as the scoring, I see your point. The gun games that use time as a scoring factor are also recording hits on paper, so the RSO just holds the timer and watches for safety and procedural violations. I'm just brainstorming for an equitable solution.

 

[Diver160651]

Truthfully, the only thing keeping me from matches is time and distance. There is exactly one club match within 4 hours of me. There are a bunch in the opposite corner of the state (Washington), but I would have to use precious leave days in conjunction with days off, and spend a considerable amount of cash just to get there and stay, much less compete.

It is my goal however, to take that plunge and get to at least one and maybe two matches next year. I ain't afraid of getting my ass kicked. In fact, if I know I'm gonna lose anyway, I am likely to just go all caveman and see just how well I can do with minimal equipment.

As far as the scoring, I see your point. The gun games that use time as a scoring factor are also recording hits on paper, so the RSO just holds the timer and watches for safety and procedural violations. I'm just brainstorming for an equitable solution.

i appreciate that, smart guys that care are where the solutions will come from!

edited to add - there are a lot of great shooters not shooting matches.. I do not think nor meant to imply, that you or anyone like you would struggle.

I'd rather see you being a better shooter than me anyway, get a handicap that might offset my tribal knowledge of a format, then go on to kick my ass as a first timer. But now, you're in the same boat, you might still win the next match etc, but soon a new comer might just give you a run for the money.. I'm thinking more local type matches anyway.. who knows - I am just hopping I can spark better ideas... The MD likes the idea, but so far a lot of the guys in my club don't want to give new comers an edge.. I just don't get it, it is just a club match.

 

[M113A3]

@ShortShooter1908

If the goal is to get more shooters into shooting matches, I think we have to figure out what keeps the new shooters from attending. I do not think it is just the gear, but the perception that they'll completely fail. But it very well can also be the costs.

Being a new to LR I want o give you some feedback from my recent experience and observations. My intro was provided by NCPPRC who hosted an LR clinic that was very well run and designed to familiarize those new to long range and or interested in competition to get some exposure.

For me this worked out very well in that I met a few folks like me and the ROs and couches were helpful and very welcoming. It was this environment that promoted me to try out one of the NCPPRC LR matches. They have three COF's that are progressively harder that can be a little tough but a very fun learning experience. I think the key is the core folks from the club who are interested in helping new folks get into the sport.

I was fortunate to become friends with another new shooter who i teamed up with in the last two matches and had a great time.

What I have found is that some of the other new shooters I have met at practice but have not signed up for a match all say the same thing one way or another... I am not ready yet.

When pressed it is apparent they are intimidated and likely don't want to fail. Each person will have a variety of reasons but in my mind the simple way to mitigate this would be for clubs to develop a mentor program which I think will greatly reduce the mental\emotional hurdle to participate.

Sure there are cost issues as well for all the gear but hell how many of you experienced shooters have a ton of bags and other gear you can bring to bridge the gear gap and also make the new shooter more welcome?

Ok I have rambled enough...

Cheers!

 

[Diver160651]

When pressed it is apparent they are intimidated and likely don't want to fail. Each person will have a variety of reasons but in my mind the simple way to mitigate this would be for clubs to develop a mentor program which I think will greatly reduce the mental\emotional hurdle to participate.
Cheers!

Thank you, I am guessing this is the core.

We also had a spin up, but exactly like your example, the conversion rate to a match is too low. Maybe it is because the spin up was not on the actual match course, or maybe because the spin up (training day) didn't have a mentor that would continue to be their squad leader in the following days match? IDK

I believe that if people felt they would perform ok and not be completely blown up, more might have joined you in the quest to try a match.. Norcal, SoCal, us, we are all kinda dong the same.. It is good, I just think we can all learn more from listening to feedback like you provided.

Please take our survey, nobody will know or ask for your email etc.. 10 question match format survey we'd liketo make sure whatever we try has some guidance

PS.. again, let me know and will go shoot.. It is a bit of a drive but worth it.. no further than Folsom.

 

[kriller134]

Thank you, I am guessing this is the core.

We also had a spin up, but exactly like your example, the conversion rate to a match is too low. Maybe it is because the spin up was not on the actual match course, or maybe because the spin up (training day) didn't have a mentor that would continue to be their squad leader in the following days match? IDK

I believe that if people felt they would perform ok and not be completely blown up, more might have joined you in the quest to try a match.. Norcal, SoCal, us, we are all kinda dong the same.. It is good, I just think we can all learn more from listening to feedback like you provided.

Please take our survey, nobody will know or ask for your email etc.. 10 question match format survey we'd liketo make sure whatever we try has some guidance

PS.. again, let me know and will go shoot.. It is a bit of a drive but worth it.. no further than Folsom.

I think it comes down to cost and perceived costs that keeps newbs from coming out. How much is a match fee? 40-50 bucks? Factor in match ammo at over a dollar a round and you’re in it at least 100 bucks just to shoot. Then there’s the perceived costs. People think they’ll need all sorts of bags and what not to be able to shoot competitively. It’s not like any pistol discipline where the majority of people have mags and a holster and that’s really all you need to just get started in production class uspsa. I think that if you promote a more run what ya brung vibe you can get more shooters to come out. That’s the way uspsa club matches promote. Then if you catch the bug you can go off the deep end. Just my 2 cents.

 

[M113A3]

Thank you, I am guessing this is the core.

We also had a spin up, but exactly like your example, the conversion rate to a match is too low. Maybe it is because the spin up was not on the actual match course, or maybe because the spin up (training day) didn't have a mentor that would continue to be their squad leader in the following days match? IDK

I believe that if people felt they would perform ok and not be completely blown up, more might have joined you in the quest to try a match.. Norcal, SoCal, us, we are all kinda dong the same.. It is good, I just think we can all learn more from listening to feedback like you provided.

Please take our survey, nobody will know or ask for your email etc.. 10 question match format survey we'd liketo make sure whatever we try has some guidance

PS.. again, let me know and will go shoot.. It is a bit of a drive but worth it.. no further than Folsom.

I took the survey! I am interested and have a few friends that might be as well. I thin it would be tough to get time off during the week at least for me but I am still willing to see what I can do.

 

[JC0352]

The following is a post by Bryan Buechler in the LPRC (Louisiana Precision Rifle Club) Facebook group. It seemed so welcoming and it pushed me to start shooting local matches. I was in a squad with Bryan at an LPRC match in June, and he’s a great mentor for new shooters and a genuinely nice dude. I think putting out this type of message will go far in getting new shooters involved at the local level.

“Brian Allen asked me to make a quick post here to answer the most common questions submitted to the LPRC page: "What can I expect shooting my first PRS match" , What do I need to shoot a match at LPRC" and "When am I ready to shoot my first PRS match"

What can you expect shooting a LPRC Club Match? The LPRC club matches are some of the most welcoming for first time shooter matches I've had the pleasure of shooting over this my first year shooting PRS style matches. LPRC is a no ego zone where new shooters can expect to shoot along side, and get lots of tips and guidance from some of the nations best shooters. The courses of fire 8-10 stages with each stage typically timed at 1 min 30 secs for 8-12 shots. Targets range from 200-750 yards - 1 MOA to 3 MOA in size (example: 1 MOA target = 6 inches at 600 yards) Shooting positions are divided to around 50% prone-50% supported with small movements required on some stages. New shooters can expect help from other shooters in stage planning and execution. Matches normally start at 7:30 am with a safety brief and first shots are fired at 8:00 and match completed before 4:00pm. LPRC prides itself on sportsmanship, safety, and fellowship; some events even include an after event BBQ.

What equipment do I need to compete? Although PRS style shooting can be an expensive venture at the highest level of performance, you CAN shoot PRS on a budget. Minimal equipment needed includes: A rifle (bolt or AR-10 like platforms) capable of shooting 1 inch at 100 yards consistently, with a 10 round magazine capacity. Calibers include everything from 223, 30 cal, 6.5 CM, 6mm etc.
A scope capable of elevation and windage adjustment Mil or MOA (BDCs not recommended) 80-100 rounds of ammunition and elevation data that correlates to your ammo and rifle for distances from 100-800 yards. A rear bag/bipod for prone and other bags and slings if desired for supported stages. Tripods are permitted but rarely used.

How do I know if I'm ready to shoot a match? If you have the equipment, (even if it is shared between shooters) and the desire to shoot... you are ready!
Training is great and will improve you greatly but you will learn immensely from match shooting regardless if your goal is big match PRS or just becoming a better hunter/shooter, and it's some of the most fun you can have shooting a rifle! Just bring an approach to safety, a willingness to learn and I promise you will walk away with a big smile and ALOT of new friends.

Please feel free to message me or anyone from the LPRC if you have any questions, we'd be happy to help in anyway. Look forward to seeing everyone in January!”

 

[GTRH8R]

A great episode! @Lowlight, you nailed the audio w/ the phone call.

The dialogue about how crazy it’s getting with bags was good to hear.

Tactical Beanbags...good stuff.

 

[Lowlight]

While I agree, shooting a Match is the best way to learn to shoot a match, ignoring the fundamentals is a shortcut to bad shooting.

You have to have a foundation in any sport, nobody fast tracks to the NFL, or NASCAR, or Insert sport here. Only in precision rifle competition do guys bypass the fundamental elements to let the equipment to all the work.

When you have guys shooting a 20LBS 6mm Dasher using free recoil, you are not shooting as much as successfully pointing the rifle. No shoulder in the stock, thumb on the back of the trigger guard only so the finger can "tap" a trigger adjusted down to 8oz is not something I advocate.

I believe what we are saying is have a foundation in good fundamentals first vs buying your way in. The lead filled stocks, the weight kits for the chassis and the super light recoiling bullets are not doing you any favors in the long run.

People adapt to bad technique all the time, the world is full of Good Bad Shooters, why create more? Repetition can be a great trainer, however getting better because you are just repeating the same bad habits over and over is not the goal. Using the scope or your zero to fix to your problem is not actually fixing the problem. At least that is my opinion and that of others.

Even in the military where they have so many other things to worry about, shooting is maybe 10% of the game. They still try to give you a foundation in what good shooting means.

 

[JC0352]

While I agree, shooting a Match is the best way to learn to shoot a match, ignoring the fundamentals is a shortcut to bad shooting.

You have to have a foundation in any sport, nobody fast tracks to the NFL, or NASCAR, or Insert sport here. Only in precision rifle competition do guys bypass the fundamental elements to let the equipment to all the work.

When you have guys shooting a 20LBS 6mm Dasher using free recoil, you are not shooting as much as successfully pointing the rifle. No shoulder in the stock, thumb on the back of the trigger guard only so the finger can "tap" a trigger adjusted down to 8oz is not something I advocate.

I believe what we are saying is have a foundation in good fundamentals first vs buying your way in. The lead filled stocks, the weight kits for the chassis and the super light recoiling bullets are not doing you any favors in the long run.

People adapt to bad technique all the time, the world is full of Good Bad Shooters, why create more? Repetition can be a great trainer, however getting better because you are just repeating the same bad habits over and over is not the goal. Using the scope or your zero to fix to your problem is not actually fixing the problem. At least that is my opinion and that of others.

Even in the military where they have so many other things to worry about, shooting is maybe 10% of the game. They still try to give you a foundation in what good shooting means.

Not sure who you’re replying to, Frank, but I agree with what you are saying right here. Wish I still lived in Denver; it’d be easier to get to one of the Mile High classes. Need to save up and get out there.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

While I agree, shooting a Match is the best way to learn to shoot a match, ignoring the fundamentals is a shortcut to bad shooting.

You have to have a foundation in any sport, nobody fast tracks to the NFL, or NASCAR, or Insert sport here. Only in precision rifle competition do guys bypass the fundamental elements to let the equipment to all the work.

When you have guys shooting a 20LBS 6mm Dasher using free recoil, you are not shooting as much as successfully pointing the rifle. No shoulder in the stock, thumb on the back of the trigger guard only so the finger can "tap" a trigger adjusted down to 8oz is not something I advocate.

I believe what we are saying is have a foundation in good fundamentals first vs buying your way in. The lead filled stocks, the weight kits for the chassis and the super light recoiling bullets are not doing you any favors in the long run.

People adapt to bad technique all the time, the world is full of Good Bad Shooters, why create more? Repetition can be a great trainer, however getting better because you are just repeating the same bad habits over and over is not the goal. Using the scope or your zero to fix to your problem is not actually fixing the problem. At least that is my opinion and that of others.

Even in the military where they have so many other things to worry about, shooting is maybe 10% of the game. They still try to give you a foundation in what good shooting means.

I agree with everything you said in this post. But what I have learned from some of the responses to me and others here on this topic, is that these values are antithetical a large portion of the people playing this game. Many of these guys... even on this forum... have no intention of being real marksmen. They want to be good gamers. Any talk of good marksmanship is completely irrelevant to them and worse, a hinderance.

Just my observations.

 

[CaylenW]

A question about the show. CW talked about NPA and shooters learning the fundamentals, but it got me thinking. Do you practice finding NPA on say a barricade or other improvised positions?

Just got me thinking.

Thanks in advance.

Absolutely yes, you can apply the same method of checking an NPA in the prone as you would in the prone. As a matter of fact, in those unconventional positions it's ABSOLUTELY necessary to have an NPA to have a reasonable hit percentage.

 

[CaylenW]

I agree with everything you said in this post. But what I have learned from some of the responses to me and others here on this topic, is that these values are antithetical a large portion of the people playing this game. Many of these guys... even on this forum... have no intention of being real marksmen. They want to be good gamers. Any talk of good marksmanship is completely irrelevant to them and worse, a hinderance.

Just my observations.

This is 100% true. You know why? Because it's way more difficult to apply the fundamentals than it is to free-recoil a 30lb .22 BR Ackely, or whatever the newest whizbang turbo-gamer rig is these days. What's more funny is that even with that tool, shooters are still missing targets... At that point, a guy might as well head over to the benchrest crowd and test his mettle there. But alas, the benchrest crowd would most likely eat them alive as well.

The sport has competely lost sight of what it was intended to be, and now it's not about a test of marksmanship, it's about what's on the prize table.

 

[M113A3]

After listening to most of the podcasts with Frank an Mike and this recent one with Caylen it really drives home the point on building a strong foundation. The idea of practical\tactical is very appealing to me. I am lucky in that I am just starting out and the core concepts expressed ring a bell. Even at my level shooting with folks at a local club I can see and sense the "gamer" mentality.

I really feel that stressing the fundamentals and promoting match directors and clubs to create the environment that stresses these concepts not only will help folks like me but help bring in more folks to enjoy the hobby\sport and create solid riflemen.

I am looking forward to when Caylen can get his NPA video out when he has the time.

Cheers.

 

[Diver160651]

After listening to most of the podcasts with Frank an Mike and this recent one with Caylen it really drives home the point on building a strong foundation. The idea of practical\tactical is very appealing to me. I am lucky in that I am just starting out and the core concepts expressed ring a bell. Even at my level shooting with folks at a local club I can see and sense the "gamer" mentality.

I really feel that stressing the fundamentals and promoting match directors and clubs to create the environment that stresses these concepts not only will help folks like me but help bring in more folks to enjoy the hobby\sport and create solid riflemen.

I am looking forward to when Caylen can get his NPA video out when he has the time.

Cheers.

I have to say, that most newer shooters in PR I see today, are squared away faster and shoot better than most people would ever expect. Maybe even them...

 

[Diver160651]

shooters are still missing targets...

I'm deleting my post - maybe I am reading your post wrong..

 

[morganlamprecht]

I agree with everything you said in this post. But what I have learned from some of the responses to me and others here on this topic, is that these values are antithetical a large portion of the people playing this game. Many of these guys... even on this forum... have no intention of being real marksmen. They want to be good gamers. Any talk of good marksmanship is completely irrelevant to them and worse, a hinderance.

Just my observations.

MDs can force better marksmanship if they want

instead of making it 12 shots on a 66% ipsc at 400 yds from a wobbly barricade and 6 positions in 90 seconds...

they could make it 8 shots on a 1.5moa circle from a solid wall with 2 positions...just an example

ive shot some stages where you had no time to adjust or apply much of anything (if you wanted to finish and score enough pts to stay in the top), and the target size/distance didnt force you too...if you want to shoot well against your peers, you have to go fast enough to get the hits...after the match if you say "i hit 6 out of 6 with perfect fundamentals...", but it was a 12 round stage and everyone else is hitting 10+, its not the way to take home the top spot

i MUCH prefer matches that give you ample time, with smaller/longer range target engagements than fast run/gun matches...especially since im one of the guys who doesnt free recoil anything, and runs an AI with the factory trigger as my go to rifle....but the run/gun are the majority of matches being put on so it is what it is

 

[Lowlight]

He is commenting on a trend,

They are going super heavy, even lead filling the stocks to increase the weight on a 6mm Dasher with very little recoil, to begin with so they can reduce the shooter influence.

It's this stuff he Caylen is talking about,

Morgan is right, speed is the key in many cases based on the COF and it's easier for them to just drop a super heavy rifle on a bag and leave the rifle to the all the work. You just have to point it.

This is the trick before the trade he mentions, get the hit at all costs vs employing any sort of fundamentals. As Morgan follow up, it's a necessary evil among the top shooters, but it does no one any favors. In fact, this is taught by competition train ups, by-passing the fundamentals going straight to the tricks.

 

[M113A3]

I think this was mentioned in several other replies and likely other posts as well but maybe the solution is to have different tracts i.e. one designed around the fundamentals and another that allows for what is in the photo above.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

@morganlamprecht When you say that, you will get "likes". Someone else says that shit and it's weeping and gnashing of teeth!

 

[Diver160651]

@morganlamprecht When you say that, you will get "likes". Someone else says that shit and it's weeping and gnashing of teeth!

Morgan's was balanced, Frank's was in context. I just miss read CaylenW in a way I am certain he didn't mean. Mine hardly ever read exactly how I mean them to sound. Often I'll read them and wonder how anybody could.

Maybe some seem one way to you, but sound a bit different to others.. It is hard on a forum, because we all ad in a different tone to what we read.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

It was balanced.

You've been fair, as far as I remember. It was a general statement and not aimed at you.

Good shooting.

 

[Deleted member 113831]

Ve

Morgan's was balanced, Frank's was in context. I just miss read CaylenW in a way I am certain he didn't mean. Mine hardly ever read exactly how I mean them to sound. Often I'll read them and wonder how anybody could.

Maybe some seem one way to you, but sound a bit different to others.. It is hard on a forum, because we all ad in a different tone to what we read.

Very true. In my case, I am an asshole by nature and profession and tend to be blunt. So, I tend to sound harsh even when not meaning to.

 

[Diver160651]

Ve
So, I tend to sound harsh even when not meaning to.

No worries on my end.

Next time you help with a class, let’s shoot. I’ll get you in to the club match if your schedule lines up. I think you’ll like it, it is more like Rotan field course than anything else. Best part, super low key no pressure, just a chance to shoot at a lot of different pieces of steel.

I usually stay at Harris Ranch, that’s just 15 min south of the road you take out to the BLM.

Now back to our regular podcast

 

[Killswitch Engage]

i try for a strong mix of fundamentals still being applied but lets not bullshit whats going on and morgan hit the nail on the head. you can have all the fundos in the world and come away from a stage with 6/10 perfect centered hits with bad ass fundamentals applied like a boss...or you can do what myself and many do which is a hybrid form of all of it to get the speed, target acquisition and engagement for 10 targets in 90 sec. fucking around building it all perfect wont cut it. i dont free recoil at all and my rifles dont have weights they just weigh what they weigh but if you come to play that game with any interest in doing well you better adapt.

fundamentals are still absolutely necessary to the building block of marksmanship but one has to learn the best way to apply what portion of those fundamentals they can under duress and time.

 

[Lowlight]

I mentioned in a Podcast today,

One of the real issues, and it does fall back to Match Directors in this case, is:

You can have the same solution for a host of stages. If the most common solution is Game Changer and Tripod, you want to change the COF and start mixing it up.

I would look at a COF and if the solution is, Game changer, tripod, tripod, game changer, tripod with a game changer, you might want to start adjusting.

That is why works, the solution is the same for too many stages

 

[Skullboy]

Frank, Episode #91 is my favorite so far. You and Caylen hit the nail on the head in regards to gear in the Pillow Rifle Series.
Keep on doing what you are doing!!!!!!