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The Everyday Sniper Podcast 122 Caylen talks Safety
- Thread starter Lowlight
- Start date
ND comment here ...
So I think there needs to be a wider definition of round accountability. Consider guys who get a match DQ for a ND from a but of wobble and miss by 8 feet right. Or a even worse ND that is 60 yards down range in the dirt, while in a safe direction but not intentional. Next, consider the "forgot to dial/zero turret" OOPS! So you just shot a Long range stage and didn't dial down. At the next stage you launch it 10 mils high for one or more rounds.until you figure it out. I have done it, everyone has, don't even try to say you haven't ...
So how is the guy that "ND" 10 feet right or 100m down range different? How many DQs have you seen for forgetting to zero your turret? I haven't seen one? In the grand scheme of round accountability down range I see the forget to dial mistake being way higher in the WTF scale than a bad wobble shot that is 10 ft off.
Now, where does that take us in the comp setting? The 120 rule has to become a standard. Break the 120 or designated range fan and you're done. This area needs to be seriously tightened up.
From the Shooter position I have seen it and been muzzled by the stage to the left or right a ton. In the RO chair on a dynamicovemt stage I have looked down a lot of barrels....
Breaking the 120 rule should be way more of a focus than a ND down range due to a wobble.
ND, trigger control, round accountability is huge. I am not trying to downplay those factors, not at all. I think the 120 should be first so if the other happens it's safe. A ND down range can be a warming offense ONCE. Breaking the 120 with a mag in on the clock is Match DQ no question!
Edit for clarification ...
I'm saying 120 for the square ranges. When you have another stage 25 yards to your left and right. We have been to the field matches with epic 180 or more fileds of fire out on a rock outcropping. (Man I wish Granite Creek was still a thing!) Situation dictates of course.
So I think there needs to be a wider definition of round accountability. Consider guys who get a match DQ for a ND from a but of wobble and miss by 8 feet right. Or a even worse ND that is 60 yards down range in the dirt, while in a safe direction but not intentional. Next, consider the "forgot to dial/zero turret" OOPS! So you just shot a Long range stage and didn't dial down. At the next stage you launch it 10 mils high for one or more rounds.until you figure it out. I have done it, everyone has, don't even try to say you haven't ...
So how is the guy that "ND" 10 feet right or 100m down range different? How many DQs have you seen for forgetting to zero your turret? I haven't seen one? In the grand scheme of round accountability down range I see the forget to dial mistake being way higher in the WTF scale than a bad wobble shot that is 10 ft off.
Now, where does that take us in the comp setting? The 120 rule has to become a standard. Break the 120 or designated range fan and you're done. This area needs to be seriously tightened up.
From the Shooter position I have seen it and been muzzled by the stage to the left or right a ton. In the RO chair on a dynamicovemt stage I have looked down a lot of barrels....
Breaking the 120 rule should be way more of a focus than a ND down range due to a wobble.
ND, trigger control, round accountability is huge. I am not trying to downplay those factors, not at all. I think the 120 should be first so if the other happens it's safe. A ND down range can be a warming offense ONCE. Breaking the 120 with a mag in on the clock is Match DQ no question!
Edit for clarification ...
I'm saying 120 for the square ranges. When you have another stage 25 yards to your left and right. We have been to the field matches with epic 180 or more fileds of fire out on a rock outcropping. (Man I wish Granite Creek was still a thing!) Situation dictates of course.
It's range dependent @Sapper524
Some ranges have bigger safety fans than others, if a guy launches one over the berm at a square range because they left their dope on the rifle, that is a DQ.
Field matches with miles of safety are a different story, but if you are on one of these places with less than 100 acres of land, it can very well be an important issue.
it's up that particular MD to decide what is safe vs what is not.
We have a huge variety in locations, one size may not fit all
Some ranges have bigger safety fans than others, if a guy launches one over the berm at a square range because they left their dope on the rifle, that is a DQ.
Field matches with miles of safety are a different story, but if you are on one of these places with less than 100 acres of land, it can very well be an important issue.
it's up that particular MD to decide what is safe vs what is not.
We have a huge variety in locations, one size may not fit all
@Lowlight , I get that. Every range is different. How can you match DQ a guy that misses by 10 feet and not a forget to dial? So not one person forgot to dial at the PRS Finale? I'm not looking to start drama with this. I just think a standard need s to be establiahed. In the realm of round accountability what is acceptable in the current competition setting?
easy, you look at the results vs the reasoning,
You are trying to weigh the reason for the miss... IE: I slipped Off a Prop and sent a shot 10ft off, vs I did not dial my dope and sent the round 10ft off.
The main difference is the Range Officer, can he see the see the difference or understand what the results were.
Round accountability can end your day in a heartbeat, compromising on it should not be an option. Why do you think a ton of ranges, especially in Europe but here too have catches above the range to make sure no rounds go out of the facility. They have dams in place so if you shoot HIGH they catch the round.
In a lot of ways a skip or shot sent high over a berm is worse than a shot sent to the left or right into the berm.
You are trying to weigh the reason for the miss... IE: I slipped Off a Prop and sent a shot 10ft off, vs I did not dial my dope and sent the round 10ft off.
The main difference is the Range Officer, can he see the see the difference or understand what the results were.
Round accountability can end your day in a heartbeat, compromising on it should not be an option. Why do you think a ton of ranges, especially in Europe but here too have catches above the range to make sure no rounds go out of the facility. They have dams in place so if you shoot HIGH they catch the round.
In a lot of ways a skip or shot sent high over a berm is worse than a shot sent to the left or right into the berm.
It's an enforcement tool, it has to be a deterrent.
If you feel the given ND is acceptable or minor, it needs to be a Stage DQ at least. Then we come back to the Insurance question.
We sign waivers, but no waiver is gonna cover a match or series if someone is hurt. If Shooter A has an issue, and you let it go with a warning, and then Shooter A hurts someone, the insurance is gonna say it's YOUR Fault. Shooter A demonstrated a problem and you allowed it to progress. The waivers you signed are out the window, see you in court.
education is key, you have to train everyone to be safe, the more matches, the more shooters, the more stages shot, the more important safety becomes.
If you feel the given ND is acceptable or minor, it needs to be a Stage DQ at least. Then we come back to the Insurance question.
We sign waivers, but no waiver is gonna cover a match or series if someone is hurt. If Shooter A has an issue, and you let it go with a warning, and then Shooter A hurts someone, the insurance is gonna say it's YOUR Fault. Shooter A demonstrated a problem and you allowed it to progress. The waivers you signed are out the window, see you in court.
education is key, you have to train everyone to be safe, the more matches, the more shooters, the more stages shot, the more important safety becomes.
I agree with both of those post. So what rule can be put in place to define round accountability for the NRL, RTC, PRS, XYZ to provide a standard? All of your terrain, range, MD reference I agree with. All of that taken into consideration, where do you draw the line? Just putting it as MD discretion, from the League standpoint,. Leaves it to open.
It's not hard,
Other sports have these rules, even ones that work inside square ranges with berms in 3 directions. The only difficulty I see is shooting over a target, because of the perception of that from an inexperienced observers point of view might appear farther over the top than it actually is.
As it stands most decisions are left to the MD as the Series does not really get involved in the running of a match only in the management of the scores. I personally think it is a mistake, the series should also manage the shooters too as competitors in their given series.
But if you really wanted to tackle safety on a broad scale you can do it with very little effort.
How about a 10-yard rule, any round impacting +/- 10 yards away from the plate is a stoppage and Stage DQ. Too much, too little, look at the practical application of the rule on a few different ranges, pick a big square range, a small square range and a field course and see what it looks like visually.
Seems like your point is to leave everything alone and just let guys do whatever until something happens that gives the entire industry a black eye.
I mean a quick look 3GUN Nation has rules laid out pretty detailed I am sure they evolved over time, but still look at few that might apply
The capitalized "MUST" was theirs, not mine.
The Abandon rules have a bunch of DQ situations
There is no wiggle room, which is something the PR Crowd tries to avoid, they want their cake and eat it too
We have a ton of other sports in this space to look at and learn from,
More 3GUN Rules
Here is their ND Policy
I personally don't think a guy who misses by 3ft committed an ND but a guy who slips and misses by 3ft committed an ND. Which is really the only gray area and why you need a experienced RO.
Last set of quotes
Why safety is even a discussion is a bit beyond me when you look at how others break down the rules of a shooting game.
Other sports have these rules, even ones that work inside square ranges with berms in 3 directions. The only difficulty I see is shooting over a target, because of the perception of that from an inexperienced observers point of view might appear farther over the top than it actually is.
As it stands most decisions are left to the MD as the Series does not really get involved in the running of a match only in the management of the scores. I personally think it is a mistake, the series should also manage the shooters too as competitors in their given series.
But if you really wanted to tackle safety on a broad scale you can do it with very little effort.
How about a 10-yard rule, any round impacting +/- 10 yards away from the plate is a stoppage and Stage DQ. Too much, too little, look at the practical application of the rule on a few different ranges, pick a big square range, a small square range and a field course and see what it looks like visually.
Seems like your point is to leave everything alone and just let guys do whatever until something happens that gives the entire industry a black eye.
I mean a quick look 3GUN Nation has rules laid out pretty detailed I am sure they evolved over time, but still look at few that might apply
The capitalized "MUST" was theirs, not mine.
The Abandon rules have a bunch of DQ situations
There is no wiggle room, which is something the PR Crowd tries to avoid, they want their cake and eat it too
We have a ton of other sports in this space to look at and learn from,
More 3GUN Rules
Here is their ND Policy
I personally don't think a guy who misses by 3ft committed an ND but a guy who slips and misses by 3ft committed an ND. Which is really the only gray area and why you need a experienced RO.
Last set of quotes
Why safety is even a discussion is a bit beyond me when you look at how others break down the rules of a shooting game.
They also have a 9ft Rule in 3GUN.
I propose you can have a 5-yard rule, just work it backward,
Any round striking more than 5 yards from a target, not wind related is a stage DQ which covers not having a proper command of your sights.
I propose you can have a 5-yard rule, just work it backward,
Any round striking more than 5 yards from a target, not wind related is a stage DQ which covers not having a proper command of your sights.
Full disclosure I have yet to shoot a PRS style competition. Long range shooting is currently my relaxing shooting hobby. I’ve been competing in USPSA and 3gun for the last few years.
Consistent application of rules is critical for any shooting sport. I think USPSA sets a good example for both safety and clearly defining a course of fire with a written stage brief.
They have the competitive equity thing down. (After years of learning how shooters will game the system to win)
They also have a great range officer training program with different levels of RO certification. I would love to see that be the model for PRS style shooting moving forward.
Consistent application of rules is critical for any shooting sport. I think USPSA sets a good example for both safety and clearly defining a course of fire with a written stage brief.
They have the competitive equity thing down. (After years of learning how shooters will game the system to win)
They also have a great range officer training program with different levels of RO certification. I would love to see that be the model for PRS style shooting moving forward.
