You know what makes Remington actions rough? Not shooting them! LOL.
I handled a Kimber bolt action the other day, very slick.
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The fate of the Remington 700 in 2017
- Thread starter tylerw02
- Start date
You know what makes Remington actions rough? Not shooting them! LOL.
I handled a Kimber bolt action the other day, very slick.
I've owned one Remington 700, and possessed and shot several others (family heirlooms). They have all performed exactly as I'd want them to. My rifle is a 700 VLS .223, and I've fired it enough to be thinking it's worn to the point where it was probably going to need a replacement barrel in another year or two. Rather than do that, I retired it from club match competitive shooting and handed it down to my Son-in-Law for duty as a Chuck rifle, for which it is clearly still adequate to the task. The other 700's provided introduction to some interesting chamberings, (7mm Mag, .25-06), and were passed on to the younger generation before we made our trek out here to the Southwest.
Looking more closely at the Remington 783, it appears to have adopted most of the innovations which Savage introduced to the popular rifle market, and customer reviews strongly suggest that the product is a good match for its market segment's needs. I own a Savage Axis II .30-'06 which may be the lesser of the two by comparison.
The Axis II has been upgraded with a (Blem, I still can't figure out what the blemish actually is...) Boyd's Classic laminated stock, and that has completely transformed the rifle into both a looker and a shooter.
Greg
Looking more closely at the Remington 783, it appears to have adopted most of the innovations which Savage introduced to the popular rifle market, and customer reviews strongly suggest that the product is a good match for its market segment's needs. I own a Savage Axis II .30-'06 which may be the lesser of the two by comparison.
The Axis II has been upgraded with a (Blem, I still can't figure out what the blemish actually is...) Boyd's Classic laminated stock, and that has completely transformed the rifle into both a looker and a shooter.
Greg
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Yeah, for the first thousand cycles or so. It is the rough the finish. It smooths out.
I bought a bottom-of-the-barrel Rem700 223 on Gander out-of-business sale for 30% off as a donor for a 6X45 build. I almost feel bad pulling the barrel, the gun shoots .5 MOA. I have no complaints. I own custom actions too, and yes they are better, for 3-4X the price for relatively minor improvements. For a non-competition build I'm happy buying cheap 700 donors and doing a Remage job on them.
Lol. This thread is the equivalent of Ferrari drivers saying that a Toyota Camry has no place in the market. As was said above, precision shooters exist as a very minor niche within the firearms market. It may not seem that way when observing from SnipersHide, but hunters and casual shooters are the civilian market.
I bought a 700 Varmint last year, it's a bit rough round the edges compared to my Tikka CTR, but it does shoot quite well (better than I can, anyway), and the factory trigger isn't too bad. As mentioned before, there are plenty of other options nowadays though, many of which come from the factory with decent stocks, detachable magazines etc.
Okay, I don't disagree, but using your analogy, the OP was asking if it was worth bothering to buy a Camry as a base car to build a car that will hang with Ferraris.
Well, not exactly, but he started out by asking if it was worth buying a 700 to build on for a precision rifle. True enough, he finished by asking if the 700 had any market at all, but the initial question was asking if it was relavent in the low end precision rifle market anymore.
You can take a factory 700 action, true the action face and bolt face. Lap the lugs. Screw a precision cut rifles bbl and precision recoil lug. And the rifles will shoot 1/2moa. Thats good enough for me. I have and have had custom actions. After all, from a strictly firing point of view, the action just jams and holds the cartridge in place in the bbl. I discard the factory triggers and replace with Rifle Basix triggers. JMO. krw
I think comparing a Chevrolet Impala to BMW 5 series is much more appropriate. There is a quality gap, but it isn't Toyota to hand built ferrari.
Are you sure it was my post that you meant to quote?
I'm strictly at the 10 year old Ford end of the budget.
I'll stick with my 700's, plenty of smiths work them over and they are very smooth when they are done. Don't give me the bullshit that it costs $350 to true it because there are plenty of good smiths that don't charge anywhere near that and I can guarantee that you wouldn't know the difference if you covered up the logo on the barrel. As for the RPR, you can find a used custom built on a 700 action on here for about the same money as what people were paying to buy one when they came out and you know you will have a good barrel. I'm not spending $1200-1500 on a rifle that might have accuracy problems and need to rebarrel. There are plenty of instances out the to prove that not all are 1/4 moa rifles like a lot of the fan boys rifles shoot. I seen how my buddy's shot before he rebarreled it and wasn't impressed at all for that kind of money. He went with that since he bought it at wholesale price when they first came and it was worth taking a chance.
Howa does. And better yet, they sell the heavy barreled 300 win mag barrelled action only so that you don't have to compromise on the stock. You can get exactly what you want.
D
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Got bored so I ordered a Savage LA, recoil log, nut, target spring, Criterion 6.5x284, Stockade stock, single shot follower. It was about $1300 all together. I suppose one can do the same with a 700. The only thing I don't like about the 700 is I can't change the barrel myself unless I want to invest in the tools. Also, most people don't know to bed a stock rifle recoil lug. That alone can make a big difference. The Bubba out there know how to make a cheap rifle shoot and they out number the SH fanboys 1199 to 1, lol.
Culpeper, that sounds like a fun rifle. The 142 SMKs, and probably the new 147 ELDs and the 155s are probably ideal for this. One of the guys down here has burned up a couple 6.5x284 barrels sending the 142s at pretty substantial speeds. Makes for a real wind-bucking laser at 1200 and under and a fun rifle for even longer shots.
A buddy and I both bedded our Savage .338 LMs and quite often outshoot the guys with $4000-5000 rigs out at extra long distances. So, I appreciate those that know how to make a budget rifle sing.
But those that are going to spend a bunch making a basic 700 perform well enough as a match rifle would likely be better served choosing another entry level rifle requiring less polishing to get there. Especially those that don't have the ability nor knowledge to do it themselves.
A buddy and I both bedded our Savage .338 LMs and quite often outshoot the guys with $4000-5000 rigs out at extra long distances. So, I appreciate those that know how to make a budget rifle sing.
But those that are going to spend a bunch making a basic 700 perform well enough as a match rifle would likely be better served choosing another entry level rifle requiring less polishing to get there. Especially those that don't have the ability nor knowledge to do it themselves.
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Here's a Howa being measured for run out prior to trueing it looks pretty bad to me. This is the rifle that you're telling me shows higher QC I get with a 5r? I'm not convinced that Howa is the answer. All 5r's I've seen shoot better than the Howa's and have better feeling actions. I notice a difference between standard 700 actions and 5r actions. Standard 700 actions on the lower priced rifles have bolt slop and they feel gritty and the Howa's and Vanguards feel about the same wheres the 5r's are tight and smooth. I didn't compromise on the stock I wanted a classic style of rifle to my eye my 5r looks sexy as hell I get wood everytime I look at it. Chassis systems are for PRS competitions but 300wm is an ELR caliber not a PRS caliber I don't need a chassis or even detachable mags for the type of shooting that the rifle was intended for in fact I'd rather not have either to save weight.
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Me, the skeptic, purchased a 700 ADL in .30-06 earlier this week for very, very cheap figuring I could loan it out for deer hunting or rebarrel some day. I have always had a soft-spot for the 700 and at the price it was a no-brained. I mounted a cheapie scope to it and loaded a few rounds with 10 year old powder I don’t use for any other rifles. While nothing to write home about, it managed MOA groups for three rounds 4/5 times. It would open to about 1 1/2-1 3/4 on round five like clock work. So it’s a four round gun. It also is the first 700 I’ve handled in a few years that appears to be well-timed out of the box. It extracts and ejects better than the last three I’ve owned.
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One of the big attractions for the 700 is all the aftermarket parts. It allows someone to build it one piece at a time, that's how I've done several rifles. Buy a rifle, replace the trigger or a trigger job is a given for most rifles then you can buy a chassis or stock as one of the final pieces. By that time you have shot it enough to figure out exactly what you want. Lets face it, the popular calibers arent available from several manufacturers or if they are, they don't have a fast twist rate for the heavies. That my two cents but I know there are a lot of different opinions on which route to go. Some simply boil down to a bad experience or two which makes a guy say fuck that brand.
And yet they shoot like this out of the box: https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/forum/...n-6-5cm-review
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Not from what I've seen. Howa has if anything worse QC by way of machining tolerances that they consider "in spec" for a rifle they'll send out the door and I demonstrated proof of that above. I recall the gunsmith saying "it was one of the worst actions we've ever seen" in the video description. Yet you're telling us that one will shoot better than a 700 trued and rebarreled to a cut rifled barrel. Some guys just have a vendetta against Remington because they're owned by Freedom Group and that's probably what we're seening here but at the end of the day when I need to buy a rifle I could care less about that I'm buying what I like and what will serve my needs.
I don't give a shit about what a gunsmith on a video says. The proof is in the shooting and Frank Galli gave a pretty good demonstration of that. Plus my own experience with three consecutive Howas tracks right along with his.
Howa, by the way, is a good enough riflemaker to be chosen by Weatherby to make the Mark V barrelled actions after Sauer got too expensive.
IV8888 charges $4,000 to do positive YouTube reviews. I learned to further question the things I watch especially on YouTube and also read most of it is a paid advertisement especially when it show cases a product and even more so when that product is just being released as what I'm watching is likely part of the manufactures product launch advertising campaign. It's called influencer marketing when a manufacture pays other outside sources such as YouTube channels or magazines to hype up their product. When you look at things from gun manufactures point of veiw because so many forums of media are anti gun like TV, Google, and Facebook that they can't advertise using traditional forms of media so they have to advertise some where. Not making accusations against Frank but because I feel that influencer marketing is rampant in YouTube I feel forced to disregard most of everything I see in YouTube especially when the conditions I mentioned above are meet, it showcases a product, the channel focuses mostly on showcasing products, and the product has been newly released.
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If you aren't trying to cast doubt on Frank Galli's review, why would you bring up others' dishonesty?
The Howa HCR has been around almost an entire year by now.
My own ownership experience mirror's what Lowlight reported.
You probably should take another approach.
Take another approach huh, yeah or what? My comments aren't intended to cast doubt on anyone they're meant to protect the fellow gun owners. Franks probably a great guy for all I know but for me YouTube reviews are no longer proof of a products performance as that system has been compromised. Seems to make perfect sense to me.
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Seems to make perfect sense to you? Well then you have no sense.
There is no fucking "system". Each individual on youtube is just that, an indivudual. Just because others may be on the take doesn't mean shit when discussing one particular individual's reviews (Frank Galli's review in this case).
Think what you will, it's obvious you can't discriminate between good and bad information. Not that I give a fuck, really.
And yet you find no problem using a You Tube video by some unknown gunsmith to support your view, also an unknown know-it-all. Funny how that works.
Unlike you, Frank is a very known quantity on here and I've found that his information rings true much more often than not. You on the other hand...
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Meh, there is a fanboy company dogma on any forum. I don't care what kind of rifle my brother is shooting. What is laughable is today's Howa is yesterday's Tikka and so forth and so on on this particular site. And yet the 700 and 10/110 are out selling them out the wazoo. Which means they put more meat on the table. Blah blah blah.
Did you bother clicking on the links? Most of what there is out publicly about the Howa Bravo is in them.
You're welcome.
To be fair, that video was by short action customs, not exactly some unknown.
I bought a deer rifle for a friend a couple weeks ago. I was trying to decide between a Tikka based off of what I have read and a ruger American predator. The ruger felt better to me even with the rough machine finishing and it out rounds 9-11 in 3/4 inch and that was the cheapest soft points I could find. Handed the rifle and the rest of the box of ammo over to him. I worked the action a few hundred times one night on the couch and it now feels pretty damn good. Better than the Tikka did instore. The Remington was 50 bucks cheaper than the American but the American had a mag so that swayed me there. These are the decisions that most of the purchasing power makes. Pulling a barrel and anything found after that are the last consideration.
I bought a deer rifle for a friend a couple weeks ago. I was trying to decide between a Tikka based off of what I have read and a ruger American predator. The ruger felt better to me even with the rough machine finishing and it out rounds 9-11 in 3/4 inch and that was the cheapest soft points I could find. Handed the rifle and the rest of the box of ammo over to him. I worked the action a few hundred times one night on the couch and it now feels pretty damn good. Better than the Tikka did instore. The Remington was 50 bucks cheaper than the American but the American had a mag so that swayed me there. These are the decisions that most of the purchasing power makes. Pulling a barrel and anything found after that are the last consideration.
Typical gun board troll behavior you show up and insult others firearm choices then when someone disagrees with you begin insulting them hence the cursing. Some ppl just think that their way is the only way and can't handle it when others have their own opinions.
Look I'm glad both of you have found rifles which work for you. My 5r works for me and I love the gun. I wish you and your family a Happy Thanksgiving. Can we just leave it at that and end this exchange or no?
I don't think so. You obviously didn't read any of the number of posts I wrote in this thread except the single one wherein I quoted you. Not once did I insult anyone's choice, unlike your most recent comments on the Howa. I took exception to your insults to Frank's review, is all, and your holier than thou approach.
Then, when you finished trolling, you called everyone else names that might have called you on your statements and tried to say that they were the problem. Look in the mirror, my friend, look in the mirror. Typical forum behavior indeed.
Happy Thanksgiving.
D
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I'm glad you like your 5r and happy thanksgiving. But the only mistake you made was motherfucking somebody else's hard work. And that person has been professionally running bolts since the 80s and this site for 18 years. He bends over backwards to make things happen for people. Is he mentally stable? Maybe. But he is no shameful opportunist. You're lucky it's slow due to the holiday season. I've seen it get pretty funny when a peep shows up with no clue of the pecking order, which is basically a company of one person. If you got here via your own bridge you better make sure it is fire resistant, lol
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So when I see evidence that a very popular YouTube channel has been bought the answer is that I should
draw more conclusions about future firearms purchases from YouTube reviews. Interesting.
I didn't insult Frank at all. I questioned YouTube as a means of receiving trustworthy firearms related content because some YouTube channels have been bought and I presented proof of as much. Because of which I completely disregard what I see in YouTube especially when certain conditions are met, the video showcases a product, the channel focuses mostly on showcasing products, and the product is relatively newly released. Frank could be a great guy but I don't know him and I would know him from a stranger on the street.
This is a troll thread the only point of it's existence is to insult other's choices that much is clear reading back though the thread at some of the language choosen to make points by some of you. Howa rifles aren't any better than any other budget rifle. When the receiver face run out is 5.5 thousandths out and the smith is saying it's one of the worst actions he's ever seen how true do you think the rest of the receiver, and the barrel is? Yet here's a forum member who swears up and down that they shoot as well as a trued action with an aftermarket cut rifled barrel such as a Bartlien or Krieger and nothing says credibility like his cursing at others who don't share his opinions or his choices of wording meant to belittle others earlier in the thread. The minute I post some info which shows his rifle doesn't seem to be everything he's claiming it to be he wants to shift the focus from a rifle he was previously so eager to discuss onto me.
draw more conclusions about future firearms purchases from YouTube reviews. Interesting.
I didn't insult Frank at all. I questioned YouTube as a means of receiving trustworthy firearms related content because some YouTube channels have been bought and I presented proof of as much. Because of which I completely disregard what I see in YouTube especially when certain conditions are met, the video showcases a product, the channel focuses mostly on showcasing products, and the product is relatively newly released. Frank could be a great guy but I don't know him and I would know him from a stranger on the street.
This is a troll thread the only point of it's existence is to insult other's choices that much is clear reading back though the thread at some of the language choosen to make points by some of you. Howa rifles aren't any better than any other budget rifle. When the receiver face run out is 5.5 thousandths out and the smith is saying it's one of the worst actions he's ever seen how true do you think the rest of the receiver, and the barrel is? Yet here's a forum member who swears up and down that they shoot as well as a trued action with an aftermarket cut rifled barrel such as a Bartlien or Krieger and nothing says credibility like his cursing at others who don't share his opinions or his choices of wording meant to belittle others earlier in the thread. The minute I post some info which shows his rifle doesn't seem to be everything he's claiming it to be he wants to shift the focus from a rifle he was previously so eager to discuss onto me.
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Re: Howas
I've had four of their barreled actions/rifles over the years, all of them under MOA, and one that was a no shit .2-.3 gun, consistently. About pooped my pants when I shot it the first time.
Is it better than a 700? Kind of hard to say, since Howa's accuracy seems to be on par for most factory guns, maybe a shade better than most IME.
Ultimately, it comes down to personal preference. I like the Howa's flat bottom action (easy to bed) and integral action lug. It just "feels" solid, whereas the Remington's can have a clunky Savage like feel when cycling. Usually its just the primary extraction being slightly out of time, but still, something that would have to be addressed.
Shrug...I think folks get a little too hung up by loyalty to a brand; every company goes through production pains. I think the question here is more "Will Remington be able to correct their recent production pains, before they get overtaken by the competition?" and less about which is "better".
I've had four of their barreled actions/rifles over the years, all of them under MOA, and one that was a no shit .2-.3 gun, consistently. About pooped my pants when I shot it the first time.
Is it better than a 700? Kind of hard to say, since Howa's accuracy seems to be on par for most factory guns, maybe a shade better than most IME.
Ultimately, it comes down to personal preference. I like the Howa's flat bottom action (easy to bed) and integral action lug. It just "feels" solid, whereas the Remington's can have a clunky Savage like feel when cycling. Usually its just the primary extraction being slightly out of time, but still, something that would have to be addressed.
Shrug...I think folks get a little too hung up by loyalty to a brand; every company goes through production pains. I think the question here is more "Will Remington be able to correct their recent production pains, before they get overtaken by the competition?" and less about which is "better".
So the same review that is on YouTube is in written form on this site. Is is still bullshit?
Why do you believe the YouTube gunsmith? What are his credentials? I used to build on Howa actions over ten years ago and my Smith often commented how little reusing the actions needed. Weird. Maybe you’re just here to troll.
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I've already answered your first question. I've stated my points of view more than once if you want to seek out that information then go back and re-read though the thread. The smith's credentials can be found in the video. Video's measuring actions for run out are boring content that few want to watch who would pay a gunsmith for such a video anyway? The smiths video doesn't showcase a firearm either I've shown proof of channels charging manufactures to endorse firearms but I've never seen proof of manufacturers paying gunsmiths to produce action run out ads. I would have thought you could have answered this for yourself.
Do you care to show proof of the 700's QC issues which you're claiming to have seen, and are basing the context of your OP off of or are you just shit posting?
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I’ll just drop this off here lol.
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/...ns-buy-fewer-firearms-20171117.html?mobi=true
for those not inerested in link clicking, Remington is in deep financial trouble.
i sort of understand it - they butchered the ACR, developed nothing new action wise while outsourcing critical safety parts like the trigger (xmark), reduced quality across the board, and now in the lull in buying caused by trump don’t seem to have a chair at the table.
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/...ns-buy-fewer-firearms-20171117.html?mobi=true
for those not inerested in link clicking, Remington is in deep financial trouble.
i sort of understand it - they butchered the ACR, developed nothing new action wise while outsourcing critical safety parts like the trigger (xmark), reduced quality across the board, and now in the lull in buying caused by trump don’t seem to have a chair at the table.
D
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Good post. I love the statement about a backlog of unsold and unwanted firearms. I would note that Remington can give up cash to fix their current debt problem and the problem or forecast only goes out to early 2018. But there is no denying that is a fucked up company.
It sounds like maybe some great opportunities could be coming for those who want a bargain Remington.
Another way to say it could be "Obama kept their shitty company in business and now they have to deal with a realistic market."
Remington blaming Trump reminds me of the old saying, "if you're looking for an excuse, anyone will do."
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