PRS Talk The Future at the Grassroots Level

[Lowlight]

Wiki describes “grassroots” in the following way: Grassroots movements and organizations utilize collective action from the local level to effect change at the local, regional, national, or international level. Grassroots movements are associated with bottom-up, rather than top-down decision-making, and are sometimes considered more natural or spontaneous than more traditional power structures

The precision rifle competition has two futures, the 3Gun Nation Precision Rifle Series, and the grassroots, club series. While the PRS has positioned itself as an adjective used to describe these competitions, they, in fact, demonstrate, “how not to do something”.


Understand this, the PRS started on Sniper’s Hide. I saw it from the first day. I watched the discussions grow into an actual series. Despite every misstep, every warning, they continue to make mistakes. It’s a clique even more so than a club. It takes two steps forward and one step back at each milestone. Rumor control has it, the series is once again changing hands. The funny part is, the new buyer is someone who was pissed about the finale and actually stormed off the range. His revenge, buy it.

I am not even gonna list the pros and cons, and just say, they helped bring attention to a lot of matches. All that is highly positive. The fact that people use the term “PRS” to describe precision rifle competition outside of the known distance stuff shows the hunger out there for organization around these events. The key is at the grassroots levels. Local events that develop the new shooters. Without the travel, the expense, the drama it’s at the local level where things will continue to grow.

There are a bunch of highly successful local events happening every month out there. The egos are missing, the big names, the jerseys (LOL) all absent from theses grassroots competitions. It’s working too. Ask the Missouri MoST guys how well their stuff is happening.


What we are missing is a playoff series vs a series trying to insist every match is of national importance. We just can’t have 40 national level events, at least not right now. We are bleeding the system dry. Today you have the Series competing with itself. Several PRS events scheduled on the same weekend, and no I am not talking club series events vs the larger events. More than one larger event not regionally separated by enough air between them.

The PRS Club Series is good to go in this respect. Line up the clubs, figure out the regions and then work towards a playoff series. Make qualification easier for the playoffs.

Score high enough at a club level, compete in a regional event, come in the top 10 and you have a seat at the finale. Your regional level commitment is finished. You can continue to shoot at the club level to practice, heck you can even do another regional event but your score is not used. Then have a finale that can handle a large enough group of shooters to actually matter.


Precision rifle is still growing, but we are fooling ourselves into thinking these Series are making the real difference. It’s fractured, we have 3 competing series who want to be the one known to have “The Best Shooters” …

Today the one with the best model to follow appears to be the 3Gun Nation Entry. The other two are making the same mistakes over and over. The difference is the spokesman for those series. Who has a better message? Still, the attitudes show this is far from working out as planned by either of them. If you shoot one you cannot play with the other. If you’re a match director you have to pick your poison because we don’t want you playing with the other guy. Why can’t I submit my scores to both? Does it really matter? A match director should not be forced to pick sides.

Go Nomad, Go Local, Heck be the grassroots start up in your area and do it your own way. Make an interesting course of fire, with a solid set of rules that apply to everyone, and don’t forget to include the little guys. You know the Juniors, the new shooter, the Ladies, all that matters. Competitions used to be a destination. You’d go to see old friends, challenge yourself individually and most of all to get away and have fun. It needs to be about having fun.

I enjoy the local events much more now than ever before. I get to sleep in my own bed. I get to help new shooters navigate the course of fire, I can flush out a new set of equipment without the added expense of traveling across the country. It doesn't matter, I am out shooting, having fun, not taking myself too seriously. When it's over I go home, I don't care if they have a prizer, heck I don't care where I place. I get to do my thing at their event.


Grassroots Series are the future, make no mistake.


For the companies reading this, consider the prize donation to a series with 100 sponsored shooters. That is an isolated pond. Do you really think a Shooter sponsored by Vortex wants to win or keep your Bushnell Scope? Of course not that get sold on Monday morning. Sooner if they can manage it. You can not cultivate new customers when the majority of the eyes on your contribution are sponsored by your competitor. You may get one or two them to jump ship if you are offering them products. But really you are preaching to the choir and unfortunately they probably already have a name on their jersey. This eliminates the need to "Pay For your Hobby". That is the problem, guys traveling across the country forced to use their placing as a way to pay for the trip.

The big success in all this is the GAP GRIND Pro-Am event. That is a great example of how to do to an event right. It’s a destination event, it's a learning opportunity, it’s a way to open the door to a host of new shooters. An equal number of new shooters in fact. Not something so skewed where the bottom 10% are routinely overlooked and dismissed. The Pro-AM opens the doors wide.


My solution, the series need to cultivate the smaller venues and worry about the National level stuff later. Help these guys grow in a way that can be sustained. Yes, it costs money to operate, but that is where the power of the series should come into play. The local events feed the regions, which then work towards a playoff ending in a finale.


This is even spreading overseas, which is a great thing.

As down as I appear on these series, I am more so disappointed. I see them as ruining a good thing by creating a group of cliques which completely miss the point. Sure the early matches we put on did not host nearly as many shooters as they do now. What we did to fix this was to add other events. We had the Sniper’s Hide Cup, when that got too big we added the Shooter’s, Bash. That was more of a launch pad towards the Cup. The disgruntled shooters trying to compete against their former series should step back and create a local series. Franchise that model to other local venues, and create these smaller events which can then build to a playoff, culminating in a finale. In my opinion, I would let people who participated try their luck at a playoff event. Hold 4 playoffs, you can then manage the top 25 of each to enter the finale.

I am not looking to piss in anyone's cornflakes, but honestly, if you cannot see the problems, you might be part of them. This stuff is pretty straight forward and easy to read.

 

[dodgefreak8]

Those of us that are starting out are lucky to have these grassroots events. I've really enjoyed our little match here in Colorado and we have some great shooters. We really appreciate you attending the last match Frank. Learned a lot and it was a blast!

 

[Mormegil87]

There are very few grass roots events in the upper Midwest, though they are beginning to pop up. The Border Wars Series seems to have it right. Hopefully it continues to grow in a positive way.

We'll see where this all goes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[missed]

The grassroots clubs are the only reason I can shoot these kind of matches. Only away from the family for a day, drive, shoot, go home. It sucks we lost one of our North Texas locations, hopefully something else will pop up. There was a good group of people there that were more than willing to help other shooters, even a couple Jersey guys.... I have enough drama to deal with in my daily life, if there is a bunch of drama at a match fuck it I don't want to go. I want to shoot, hangout with good people and have fun. Hopefully a dominate national group will stand out from the others that will lead with a strong model to grow and better the sport, limiting the effects of the negative people that only have themselves in mind. With any sport there will be some problems and people that want to ruin it, a strong organizational structure that can identify the challenges and are willing to place controls in the system to limit the effects of the shit heads is critical to the success of the game.

 

[RyanM]

It is good to read things like this some times.

Last year I ran the first "PRS" type event in Canada. It was quickly followed up by several others events run by other individuals (we were actually working individually at the start but found each other online). We worked with each other shot at each others events and it was great. The matches were small with 30 people or less and all 1 day affairs. There were no sponsors and it was mostly just a bunch of hacks out there slinging lead down range. I would like to think everyone had fun. Canada also had its first official PRS match last year in Ontario.

This year myself and others really ramped things up. We have nearly 50 shooters, a bigger COF, and a pretty healthy prize table (the match is this weekend). Due to the advice from friends and reading things here the prizes will be distributed by random draw and not position. I organize(d) matches because I want to shoot in them. I do not organize them to have a bunch of big swinging dicks making my life harder.

Our goal is to one day have a sanctioned match but maybe that may have to be re-evaluated in the future based on some of the posts on here.

I also echo the poster above. A one day match is often what most shooters can do. I know personally that between planning the events, time at the loading bench, and match day is about all my family can take.

Good post LL.

 

[CriterionBarrels]

I really do hope the grassroots precision rifle movement continues to flourish, as the expenses and time commitment required for many of the larger events prove to be fairly cost prohibitive for new shooters. We have been looking to expand our match sponsorship program pretty significantly for this type of competition over the next couple of years, so feedback like this is much appreciated when it comes to budgeting and resource allocation.

It's tough to coordinate the logistics behind distributing prizes and promotional materials through a large quantity of local and smaller regional matches versus working with a single larger organization, but normally those smaller venues are far less demanding in what they require manufacturers to provide them with in order to help support their events. The club events also tend to be more appreciative for contributions of any level, so I always do my best to put a package together whenever we get a request to sponsor one.

The only downside of focusing efforts on the club series events is that you tend to limit your exposure to the professional shooters and the associated media coverage that comes along with them (blog articles, product reviews, etc.). Having a share of that extremely small market has a very tangible effect in how your product is perceived by other shooters competing in events of all levels. As you had mentioned just about all of those shooters are already sponsored by other manufacturers, so it's a tough nut to crack from an organization that is just now entering that particular market.

 

[Frontlinedefenseusa]

Reason I started the Absolute Zero Sniper Matches in NC. No prize table, no bowling shirts, no attitudes.

 

[Lowlight]

I really do hope the grassroots precision rifle movement continues to flourish, as the expenses and time commitment required for many of the larger events prove to be fairly cost prohibitive for new shooters. We have been looking to expand our match sponsorship program pretty significantly for this type of competition over the next couple of years, so feedback like this is much appreciated when it comes to budgeting and resource allocation.

It's tough to coordinate the logistics behind distributing prizes and promotional materials through a large quantity of local and smaller regional matches versus working with a single larger organization, but normally those smaller venues are far less demanding in what they require manufacturers to provide them with in order to help support their events. The club events also tend to be more appreciative for contributions of any level, so I always do my best to put a package together whenever we get a request to sponsor one.

The only downside of focusing efforts on the club series events is that you tend to limit your exposure to the professional shooters and the associated media coverage that comes along with them (blog articles, product reviews, etc.). Having a share of that extremely small market has a very tangible effect in how your product is perceived by other shooters competing in events of all levels. As you had mentioned just about all of those shooters are already sponsored by other manufacturers, so it's a tough nut to crack from an organization that is just now entering that particular market.

Here is an interesting take on the exposure and return on investment of a local series.

I spent the day with Mike from Mile High Shooting. Both and Mike and Adam from Mile High have been supporting a brand new local series happening every month here in Colorado. In fact I attended the first match as a supporter and shot the match this month. So talking with Mike today about this very topic, he enlightened me to the return on investment of this local series. (Understand MHSA supports a lot of big PRS Style matches across the country too)

Within the first month, they had no less than 3 complete builds ordered. This month they sold five $800 tripod set ups. (amazing what a sponsored stage will do) That is huge. Compare that to the national event they recent participated in where the winner of a AI chassis asked for the money and told them to keep the chassis they donated. Real Champ there.

A company supporting new shooters will have customers for life, a company supporting guys who are already sponsored, and have no interest in their product, better bring cash.

It's about getting creative, it's about supporting the community at the foundation level. In short, its about giving back.

Everyone at the local match sleeps in their own bed, drives at the most 2 hours to get there, and is able to grow in a low stress environment. They can see what works and probably can use what you are selling. This is a gold mine for companies.

In my groups there was one new shooter who had all the gear and none of the experience. I took him to the side and gave him a class in-between stages. He was barely hitting any targets, so why not step up and help. When you're stuck in your own head, worrying about your own score it's easy to miss all the little things. Sure we see guys step up and help when people have a problem all the time. But in this case, I can actually help them score vs just saying how to fix it. I can invest more time because my score is secondary to just getting out and shooting. Helping a fellow competitor that is floundering is too easy.

Bigger matches, I recommend to thinking outside the box. Giving a complete prize is probably a waste of money, giving a certificate with a percentage off is a better return on investment. You can still develop a lot of social media and blog interest during a local event. But you have to do it. The organizer may not be the ones to do this work but who cares. Ask for pictures, send a guy and be part of the series or events. Interacting and educating the new shooters in the group will pay big time. Just because a guy is wearing your name on his jersey doesn't mean what it did 2 years ago. Guys are getting hip to the fact you can buy (or lease) that spot on his shirt. I understand there is low hanging, "What the Pros' Use" articles out there, but who is to say you cannot submit an articles, " How we support the shooting community" to a website. I would rather copy and paste than write it myself. You reach the guys early in their precision shooting life and you can influence the buying decision by offering them one on one support.

It's more than just about having your name on a shirt or a prize on the table. That is so 2010.

I did a class for a pro mountain biker, X Game type guy. He is amazed how people just give shooters stuff with very little expectation in return. I know some companies that give stuff up, have their names on people's shirts and never interact. The shooters throw a little bit up on social media when the mood strikes them, but mostly, they never talk. These X Game guys have actual contracts with a list of real responsibilities attached. Very few gun companies do this or even understand it.

It's a unique time, the companies that unlock the new door will rise, the ones that think they can find success on the backs of a pro shooter's jersey will be left asking, "What did that get me besides 3 free barrels out the door" will be playing catch up.

 

[Mormegil87]

It'll also be very interesting to see how this 3GN Precision variable changes how the sport grows. They already have the infrastructure and knowledge of how to group a sport from the grass roots level to the national level very effectively. However, 3GN isn't without it's issues...many of which, we are starting to see or become aware of within the PRS and practical precision rifle competitions in general.

 

[CriterionBarrels]

Here is an interesting take on the exposure and return on investment of a local series.

I spent the day with Mike from Mile High Shooting. Both and Mike and Adam from Mile High have been supporting a brand new local series happening every month here in Colorado. In fact I attended the first match as a supporter and shot the match this month. So talking with Mike today about this very topic, he enlightened me to the return on investment of this local series. (Understand MHSA supports a lot of big PRS Style matches across the country too)

Within the first month, they had no less than 3 complete builds ordered. This month they sold five $800 tripod set ups. (amazing what a sponsored stage will do) That is huge. Compare that to the national event they recent participated in where the winner of a AI chassis asked for the money and told them to keep the chassis they donated. Real Champ there.

A company supporting new shooters will have customers for life, a company supporting guys who are already sponsored, and have no interest in their product, better bring cash.

It's about getting creative, it's about supporting the community at the foundation level. In short, its about giving back.

Everyone at the local match sleeps in their own bed, drives at the most 2 hours to get there, and is able to grow in a low stress environment. They can see what works and probably can use what you are selling. This is a gold mine for companies.

In my groups there was one new shooter who had all the gear and none of the experience. I took him to the side and gave him a class in-between stages. He was barely hitting any targets, so why not step up and help. When you're stuck in your own head, worrying about your own score it's easy to miss all the little things. Sure we see guys step up and help when people have a problem all the time. But in this case, I can actually help them score vs just saying how to fix it. I can invest more time because my score is secondary to just getting out and shooting. Helping a fellow competitor that is floundering is too easy.

Bigger matches, I recommend to thinking outside the box. Giving a complete prize is probably a waste of money, giving a certificate with a percentage off is a better return on investment. You can still develop a lot of social media and blog interest during a local event. But you have to do it. The organizer may not be the ones to do this work but who cares. Ask for pictures, send a guy and be part of the series or events. Interacting and educating the new shooters in the group will pay big time. Just because a guy is wearing your name on his jersey doesn't mean what it did 2 years ago. Guys are getting hip to the fact you can buy (or lease) that spot on his shirt. I understand there is low hanging, "What the Pros' Use" articles out there, but who is to say you cannot submit an articles, " How we support the shooting community" to a website. I would rather copy and paste than write it myself. You reach the guys early in their precision shooting life and you can influence the buying decision by offering them one on one support.

It's more than just about having your name on a shirt or a prize on the table. That is so 2010.

I did a class for a pro mountain biker, X Game type guy. He is amazed how people just give shooters stuff with very little expectation in return. I know some companies that give stuff up, have their names on people's shirts and never interact. The shooters throw a little bit up on social media when the mood strikes them, but mostly, they never talk. These X Game guys have actual contracts with a list of real responsibilities attached. Very few gun companies do this or even understand it.

It's a unique time, the companies that unlock the new door will rise, the ones that think they can find success on the backs of a pro shooter's jersey will be left asking, "What did that get me besides 3 free barrels out the door" will be playing catch up.

I think you hit the nail on the head with this one. It doesn't pay to just throw a product on the prize table, toss a banner up on one of the stages and call it a day. Getting actively involved in the community definitely requires a bit more creativity than that. Part of our sponsorship program pertains to working with new shooter training programs like those held by the Civilian Marksmanship Program and Generation III Gun, so it may be worthwhile to seek out a non-profit partner that holds a similar mission with PRS type events. Are you aware of any widespread programs similar to Project Appleseed that offer training and education tailored to precision rifle shooters?

 

[demolitionman]

Lowlight, great thread here. Im a new guy, to the long range stage although ive dabbled in it for years on and off. Ive been hesistant to compete for fear of not fitting in with the "hardcores". I said f'it and i shot my first local long range match and am absolutely blown away how welcoming and helpful everyone was. I really cant wait for the next match. Finished like 30th out of 40 some but still got guys acting stoked on the few hits i did make. Apparently our local long range scene is really taking off and i cant wait to grow with it. Feeling rather blessed for the guys who run the LR comps and ranges around here.

 

[LawnMM]

I spent the day with Mike from Mile High Shooting. Both Mike and Adam from Mile High have been supporting a brand new local series happening every month here in Colorado. In fact I attended the first match as a supporter and shot the match this month. So talking with Mike today about this very topic, he enlightened me to the return on investment of this local series.

Where is that taking place? Sounds great for the local CO guys

 

[mkollman74]

The precision rifle competition has two futures, the 3Gun Nation Precision Rifle Series, and the grassroots, club series. While the PRS has positioned itself as an adjective used to describe these competitions, they, in fact, demonstrate, “how not to do something”.


It’s a clique even more so than a club.


The key is at the grassroots levels. Local events that develop the new shooters. Without the travel, the expense, the drama it’s at the local level where things will continue to grow.


The egos are missing, the big names, the jerseys (LOL) all absent from theses grassroots competitions. It’s working too. Ask the Missouri MoST guys how well their stuff is happening.


Precision rifle is still growing, but we are fooling ourselves into thinking these Series are making the real difference. It’s fractured, we have 3 competing series who want to be the one known to have “The Best Shooters” …


Go Nomad, Go Local, Heck be the grassroots start up in your area and do it your own way. Make an interesting course of fire, with a solid set of rules that apply to everyone, and don’t forget to include the little guys. You know the Juniors, the new shooter, the Ladies, all that matters. Competitions used to be a destination. lleYou’d go to see old friends, change yourself individually and most of all to get away and have fun. It needs to be about having fun.


Grassroots Series are the future, make no mistake.


As down as I appear on these series, I am more so disappointed. I see them as ruining a good thing by creating a group of cliques which completely miss the point.

I took the liberty of keeping my favorite portions of LL's post above.

Frank, this may be your single best post ever. It certainly does a good job of capturing my thoughts. As the sport "grew" into what it is today, my interest waned. I have only shot in two PRS "sanctioned" matches, and each experience was lacking. I much prefer the local scene without the hoopla, ego, and entitlement. I truly miss the days when it was about the shooting and camaraderie. The blatant cheating I witnessed from some team shooters was both laughable and sad. It's been a little while since I put much effort into competition. When I do again, you can bet it will be with club matches...

 

[nfoley]

Also interested in finding out where and when a new match is being held in CO!
The Colorado Springs monthly match is awesome, would love to have another fun match locally!

 

[c ward]

The match is at Pawnee Sportsman's Center , the 2nd Sat of the month .

https://www.snipershide.com/shootin.../6449442-noco-precision-rifle-match-at-pawnee

 

[M5B2CFF]

Also interested in finding out where and when a new match is being held in CO!
The Colorado Springs monthly match is awesome, would love to have another fun match locally!

Same day as Pikes. NoCo really needs to fix that.

 

[nfoley]

Same day as Pikes. NoCo really needs to fix that.

Yep! Would love to do both.

 

[M5B2CFF]

Yep! Would love to do both.

Me too. If they can swing it I'll see you there for sure