The good news is, I figured out the problem....

Armed Ferret

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jul 31, 2006
517
3
DPR Maryland
[rant]

I have been unable to get much better than 1.25" or so out of a custom-built heavy-barreled remington 700. The smith damn sure knows what he's doing, so I know it wasn't put together wrong. Past targets with several other guns over the years have illustrated I have progressed nicely as a shooter, so I know the problem was highly unlikely to be me. After much frustration, thinking it was maybe me, then the scope, then the thread protector, etc. etc., I was able to shoot some quite impressive groups at 100 with Hornady Superformance factory 178's. So I felt a lot better knowing the rifle (and I) can shoot, and the scope isn't wonky.

After some closer inspection of my handloads, I learned the seating depths have been varying as much as .020" at the ogive from one projectile to another (when seating, I use a Hornady CGND die, and will set it with the first round to the desired depth, and then churn them out--i have never had a problem in the past until this lot of SMK's, which is all i've shot out of this rifle so far). While SMK's tend to be fairly forgiving regarding jump to the lands, this is absolutely unacceptable from a consistency standpoint. I can understand .003" or so variation, maybe even .005". But .020" is WAY the hell too much when you claim uniformity and consistency of your product is top-notch.

Measured the lengths of some projectiles tonight (just the bullets, not loaded rounds) at the ogive. Here's what I got:

.657
.639
.645
.637
.655
.655
.653
.656
.658
.648
.656
.640
.656
.639
.643
.656
.644
.655
.637
.648

OAL from base to meplat varies just as much, and isn't even consistent--two projectiles that measure .656 at the ogive, for example, were over .010" apart on overall length.

I find this lack of consistency in manufacture absolutely ridiculous, and will be moving on to Hornady A-Max projectiles for load development.


[/rant]
 
Re: The good news is, I figured out the problem....

From base to point / meplat is controlled by the length of the jacket. And EVERYBODIES vary as much as .005" to .010". When I saw what you have just described I switched to Bergers. You WILL NOT find better quality.

One of the problems with SMKs is that they have 6 or 8 machines dumping into the same bin. Over the years they have worn. Sierra is also still using 1950s & 1960s technology. Bergers oldest machine is newer than Sierra's newest machine. If you don't do preventive maintenance on rubbing / stamping parts on die sets you run into these problems. And progressive dies just multiply the problems.
 
Re: The good news is, I figured out the problem....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Victor N TN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">EVERYBODIES vary as much as .005" to .010".</div></div>

Understandable, and that's acceptable.

What I didn't find acceptable was the nearly .040" variance in OAL for just 20 projectiles.

Gonna try some 155's next, and some 208's just for grins....but not from Sierra's lineup.
wink.gif


I truly do think I just got a "bad batch", but it shouldn't be *THAT* hard to get more consistency. Hell, the 168 Nosler Ballistic Tips I have sitting here all measure out within .001" on the ogive. And they're shitty.
grin.gif
 
Re: The good news is, I figured out the problem....

208s hold velocity better and drift less then any of the lighter bullets. sending them at 2600 takes you out about 1300 ss
 
Re: The good news is, I figured out the problem....

my last smk was all within 005 but the berger was crap but i think someone had put culls back in the box i got because it had been taped up
 
Re: The good news is, I figured out the problem....

You haven't figured out the problem unless either:

1. You have sorted the SMKs and the short, medium and long jacket ones shoot differently from the mixed batches; or

2. You have tested the competitor's stuff and it shoots better than the mixed SMKs.
 
Re: The good news is, I figured out the problem....

I just measured a 500ct box of 175 SMK's that I bought and they only varied .003 total from the base to the ogive. I also measured a box of 100 that I have and sorted them into 2 groups that were within .002 of each other, but the groups were .010 apart.
 
Re: The good news is, I figured out the problem....

I shoot Hornady's for a number of reasons, however, you might try calling Sierra and making a note to their customer service about this.

Sort a few by the ogive length, shoot 'em and have a test group to back up the story. You have the bullets already, you may as well use them and then let them know what's going on.

1 complaint may not make a difference to them, they might just say "sorry to hear that, here's a box of bullets" but enough of them will probably push the company to do some maintenance and improve the quality for everyone involved.

I shoot Hornady's because of cost and consistency and availability. I shoot Bergers when things start to get very far away.
 
Re: The good news is, I figured out the problem....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2. You have tested the competitor's stuff and it shoots better than the mixed SMKs.</div></div>


Did you miss the part where Hornady Superformance shot way better than anything SMK?

If so, it's located in the first paragraph of my initial post that started off the thread. It's the sentence with the word "Superformance" in it.
wink.gif
 
Re: The good news is, I figured out the problem....

Here's an update we can all enjoy.

Called Sierra today at the prodding of a chap whose opinion I highly respect (on another forum).

Spoke with "Duane" in their tech department.

I'm not sure if "Duane" was in the middle of his monthly visitor or what, but halfway through my explaining the issue to him (I was somewhere around the part about the lengths of these "precisely-manufactured bullets" varying by as much as .020") he started yelling my name over me talking. When I asked him why he was so rudely interrupting me, because I hadn't finished explaining the issue to him, he said he wanted to shut me up because I'm either lying or a complete idiot. His words, not mine.

I'm sending the shit back to them, and he <span style="font-weight: bold">CLAIMS</span> their QC department will look at them and if they aren't within specs, which he HIGHLY doubts due to the extremely tight tolerances their precision machines hold (i held my tongue, but really wanted to ask how old their machinery is), they'll "try to make it up to" me.

So I may actually get some SMK's back from them that I can turn around and trade or sell for some Bergers or Scenars--although I'm damn sure not holding my breath.
 
Re: The good news is, I figured out the problem....

I found variance in all the brands I have tried, Hornaday, Sierra, even scenars. Some had more, some had less. What interests me is why your seating depths are so inconsistent. Its real hard to make them that far apart. Even trying I cant get variance over .005 with my redding dies. If I set it at 2.200 (ogive) and use a slow repeatable seating motion they rarley vary by more than .001.

Measurng to the tip of the bullet will make you mad trying to get them the same. A comparator will help you keep your sanity.
 
Re: The good news is, I figured out the problem....

I <span style="font-weight: bold">AM</span> using a comparator.

Hornady Custom-Grade New Dimension seating die.

Just loaded some 168 Nosler Ballistic Tips this evening, and everything seated to the exact same depth every time.

So for shits 'n' grins I re-seated 15 of the 175's i'd loaded previously, and sure enough variance up to .020" in length at the ogive.

So i'm gonna go out on a limb and venture a guess that it's NOT the seating die. Or brass. Or anything else other than poor QC at Sierra.

I don't doubt it's a freak occurrence, as I'd had fantastic results from Sierras back when my 5R had its original barrel. I'd have to say that although I was planning on trying them again, "Duane" shifted that decision for me.

All good. I've got some A-maxes on the way.
smile.gif
 
Re: The good news is, I figured out the problem....

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Armed Ferret</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body">2. You have tested the competitor's stuff and it shoots better than the mixed SMKs.</div></div>


Did you miss the part where Hornady Superformance shot way better than anything SMK?

If so, it's located in the first paragraph of my initial post that started off the thread. It's the sentence with the word "Superformance" in it.
wink.gif
</div></div>
Sorry, I thought we were talking specifically about bullets in reloads--THAT'S where you reported the problem.

Until you tell me that you pulled bullets from those Superformance loads and found their meplats to be noticeably more consistent than the SMKs you complain about, you're dealing from a short deck as far as data is concerned.

Even if the OAL of the Superformance has *less* variance than the SMKs, you still don't *know* whether or how much difference there was in all that evidence that you just destroyed.

Different variable but the comparison is valid: I've seen too many loads with ordinary velocity spreads and unimpressive sd values outshoot the 12 fps ES/sd of 4.2 loads to believe that the discrepancies you report are the only cause of the poor results you are getting.

I'd laugh and you'd owe me a six-pack of Ginger Ale if that Superformance ammo has bullets as "bad" as your SMKs. I don't really expect it to be the case, but is could be. Not every accuracy variable can be measured with a set of calipers.
 
Re: The good news is, I figured out the problem....

BTW Armed Ferret, would those 175-gr loads happen to be compressed charges?

The last time I had OAL variations, it was with a batch of .223 brass that had thin necks and one out of 8 rounds would slowly "unseat" the bullets.

Two .656 base-to-ogive bullets being .010 different in overall length sure makes you wonder. In the past I have always just loaded so the ogive at "X" diameter was always the same and never worried about whether the jackets all closed up at the same place. Old Harry Pope's experiments 100+/- years ago showed that for pure group size, meplat and ogive damage had far less effect than even very minor heel damage.

Can't argue with the fact that your results with the SMKs are unacceptable for that rifle. Sure that batch of bullets didn't "fall off a truck" or come from a great e-Bay auction from some guy in China? If some crook is repackaging Sierra seconds/rejects and selling them as firsts, ohboy, there should be TROUBLE!!!

And have you also checked the weights?
 
Re: The good news is, I figured out the problem....

no compressed charges.

weights from 173.2 grains up to 177.6 grains on the 20 i measured lengths on.


i measured about 25 of my 168 NBT's (not the greatest, but they were handy so that's what i went with) and they were all within .002" of each other, and weights were within .3 grains. They all seated to exactly the same OAL (@ ogive) when I loaded them up too....as have the NBT's, TSX's, and Accubombs on my 7SAUM, as well as the NBT's, TSX's, Remington Core-lokts, Hornady BTSP's, and V-max's on my wife's .243.

I have no doubts that I got the batch that "slipped through" QC (i.e., I'm sure this isn't the norm from Sierra--I've had good results from their wares in the past). Duane's people skills reminiscent of "Tom" from Office Space are what's keeping me from wanting to funnel any more money to Sierra. I've got some Amaxes on order from Midway, and will be picking up some Bergers and Scenars next month. I'm good to go.
smile.gif