The Grid

[straightshooter1]

Paul Harrels review of the "Punch" ammo:

Guess I shouldn't have stopped reading at the MV on the package as it then states that that velocity is out of a 2" barrel.

That's a very nice and informative video. For self defense, I'd like to see what it does in ballistic gel. I think the video does provide a good idea how that would likely turn out and likely to have good penetration. But for or 22lr handguns, I just feel the CCI Mini Mag HP's still offers best overall performance. Maybe time will tell??? In the meantime, I'll see how the do out of my rifles.

 

[AZ Dan]

Save yourself some time drawing a grid....just cut out a piece of wrapping paper. Most wrapping paper will have a 1" grid pattern printed on the back...grab a sharpie to make dots on the intersections, tape it to a backer ( a pizza box lid or other cardboard), and you've got yourself a nice little target.

Bonus; christmas wrapping paper is on clearance right now...it's super cheap.

 

[justin amateur]

Couple more boxes of 22wmr sent this morning.
Had the two Grid targets on the bench for measurements,
and a youngster walked over to check out the results.

"That's not very good, is it?"

"Nope, not really."

"Why are you taking pictures of them?"

"I post 'em to show what happens with this ammo."

"I wouldn't, look how many missed."

"That's the point, most folks only show their best results, I show them all."

"I wouldn't."

"Why not?"

"Don't need to, everybody already knows how bad their shooting is."


There's some truth, eh?

 

[justin amateur]

CCI has the box of 22wmr that had the case rupture.
My 455 receiver has been cleaned, inspected, reassembled using components from the parts bin,
then installed in the original Fuglie to send two more boxes of 22wmr.
The Fuglie does make it extremely easy to maintain point of aim.
18 plus pounds of inertia and 3 points of support keep it very stable.
The barrel block method of attachment minimizes barrel harmonics.
Results are all on wind and cartridge quality.

CCI VMAX 30 grain ballistic tip 22wmr

Even with the Fuglie removing me from the results
the CCI 22wmr is still a 2 moa cartridge at 50 yards.
Yeah, you do get random acts of accuracy
but for 50 shots there's still an inch plus of spread.

Also sent another box of CCI A22 at 50 yards with the Fuglie
to compare to the results produced from the Varmint stock.

The 22wmr is a hunting cartridge, never meant for precision shooting.

 

[dano225]

Justin,
Thanks for taking the time to share all this information.

My question is: how can you know that your rifle is zeroed?
Looking at your grids you could add or subtract a few clicks to change the outcomes.
Could you average the impact offset from your aiming points to get a true centre and calculate a more accurate group size from that?

Thanks,
Dan

 

[justin amateur]

I carry two boxes of each cartridge attempted.
Warm up with a group or two of 5 shots, adjust to match conditions.
I am attempting to punch center every squeeze of the trigger.
Suppose I was missing every shot 0.14 high and 0.17 right,
the pattern would be evident over the course of 5 or 6 shots.
I would readjust to fit the pattern.
Problem, the cartridge quality isn't good enough to do so.
Look at the odd strays and vertical fliers, that's not me or wind.
I'm not that clueless with my 455's....been working with them for over 8 years.
If I was consistently off the same amount and direction,
then yeah, my scope isn't set correctly. But when results are high, low, left, right at random,
that's going to be wind or cartridge caused strays. It's rimfire, mass produced ammo.
Production line variations in assembly and components causes trajectory variations.

Aggregate group size is measured relative to grid intersect for each shot.
Spread is furthest left of grid plus furthest right of grid for total horizontal,
vertical is furthest above grid plus furthest below grid.
Even if my scope wasn't zeroed correctly, the total spread is still the same.
All measurements are referenced to where I am trying to hit.

Meeting the requirement of Rule #1, isn't easy.

The only reason I have to shoot groups, is to adjust my scope to fit the current conditions
and to match the performance of the current batch of ammunition. Once that is done
my preference is shooting for score or a one dot one shot type target. The Grid is a cheap
method of doing so, without eating up printer paper or ink. As a plus, the Grid allows easy
measurements for calculating aggregate group size for however many shots desired.
Measure for 5 or 50, entirely up to you.

 

[dano225]

Thanks for the reply.
Along with your 50 at 200 shooting it has changed the way I think about rim-fire accuracy.

Dan

 

[justin amateur]

Glad it was useful Dan.

So, when are you going to post a grid?

When you do, include pics of the setup, view downrange and results.
I need my rifle pron.

 

[justin amateur]

Here's an example of why I don't care for groups as a method of checking accuracy...

200 yards off the bench with the 17 hmr. Trying to hit that 3/4 inch diameter dot
and look at where the center of group drifts for each 5 shot run. Never the same location.
Yes there are a couple of sub-moa groups, but they mean nothing compared to overall aggregate group size.
Each sub-moa group is a random act of accuracy that doesn't meet the requirement of Rule #1, hit what you aim at.

 

[grauhanen]

look at where the center of group drifts for each 5 shot run. Never the same location

Is it a matter of groups "drifting"? I know you are aware of what I'm saying below, but it's more a matter of perspective.

The results are due to the relatively random POI of individual rounds. That's why some groups are good and some less so.

If an overlap was done of all shots, the result would be very much like the 50 @ 200 results that you've posted on RFC. The groups shown could easily be any five holes from a 50 @ 200 target.

In any case, it's worth noting that the goal itself can be viewed as somewhat arbitrary and too elusive.

Trying to hit that 3/4 inch diameter dot

It can be seen as arbitrary because the only times it is hit is when a random shot happens to go there. It's too elusive because the shooter and rifle, no matter how good, can't put 17hmr rounds on the 3/4" dot on demand because the nature of the ammo (not to mention the distance) conspires to prevent it.

In other words, since it can't be done predictably even with top notch .22LR match ammo, it's very much like a sisyphean task. When the dot is hit, it's by accident as much as by good shooting.

 

[Emerson0311]

Here's an example of why I don't care for groups as a method of checking accuracy...

200 yards off the bench with the 17 hmr. Trying to hit that 3/4 inch diameter dot
and look at where the center of group drifts for each 5 shot run. Never the same location.
Yes there are a couple of sub-moa groups, but they mean nothing compared to overall aggregate group size.
Each sub-moa group is a random act of accuracy that doesn't meet the requirement of Rule #1, hit what you aim at.

Groups are a solid way to find the average accuracy. The problem is, must people do not want to see or show the reality, especially of Rimfire. This is exacerbated when they are trying to sell something based on the accuracy shown. That is why 5 round Rimfire groups are a thing. They are not the real truth that a group with 10 or 20 or 50 shots is. Shooting a grid, or an ARA target, is just tracking each shot more carefully, and then doing the math to produce a measure of what a 25 or 50 round group would look like. As humans we have a hard time focusing intensely for 50 shots at one target, so it’s easier to break it down to 1 at a time. Whatever works for the shooter, but it is important to remember that tracking a process every 30 seconds, vs measuring the end result in 10 minutes is often just obsessing which makes us feel better.

 

[1588]

I like the way you guys think. If I shoot 3 groups under 1" at 100 yards with a .22LR, then shoot a 1-1/2" group, I am going to report my rifle/ammunition combination shoots 1-1/2" groups.

 

[Emerson0311]

I like the way you guys think. If I shoot 3 groups under 1" at 100 yards with a .22LR, then shoot a 1-1/2" group, I am going to report my rifle/ammunition combination shoots 1-1/2" groups.

Just average them. If you really want to break it down, ignore the horizontal spread if you are shooting outside. We all want to make us and our gear look good. It’s human, but reality is why one day we kick ass, and another day we look like shit.

 

[justin amateur]

Average? Nope, not gonna happen.
What you see is what you get.
In my world there is no "all day long" or "like a laser".
Between wind and factory caused ammunition problems,
I expect strays and mv caused vertical spread.
It all goes back to Rule #1...Hit what you aim at.
Can you, or can't you?
I can't.

 

[justin amateur]

I'm a glutton for punishment, Winchester 36 grain CPHP.
Last of a box purchased for the 50 at 100 and 200 yards.

Some great looking cartridges there...

Stovepipes, uneven seating, irregular drive bands, dents and dings along with audible mv differences.

The CZ 455 Varmint is reassembled after the 22wmr case rupture blew the bottom out.
New heavy bag replaced the one punctured by the rupture driven magazine punching a hole through it.

The barrel is the factory 22lr heavy that I've been tracking rifling wear in.
Almost 2000 rounds through it now, after it hits 2000, me and the borescope
will document the rifling to compare to what it looked like when new.

1.2 inches of vertical, 1.3 inches horizontal...typical for bulk 22lr.
The Winchester White Box wouldn't fit in the chambers of the Lilja or Shilen match barrels.
They did fit in the CZ factory barrel with the sporter cut chamber.

 

[justin amateur]

Pulled the 455 SOF out of storage.
Installed a Lilja 17hmr barrel and a CZ Fly trigger which is currently being tested for function.
Previous owner didn't like how it felt. I like tinkering so it'll be fun.

CCI Green 16 grain 17hmr hollow points - no lead for varminting.
Critters these pills hit turn into meat spray. Great for rodent control in the fields.

It ain't precision target ammo.
Roll the cartridges on a flat surface they show tip wobble.
Varying seating depths and differing crimp tensions.
A couple the bullets were moving in the brass.
Audible mv differences showing up as vertical spread.
Odd strays due to cartridge differences.
Typical CCI rimfire hunting ammo.

CCI 17 hmr 20 grain FMJ Gamepoints
These are from a purchase back in 2016, used only for meat hunting.
Supersonic icepicks is how they're best described.
Go right through a small critter and carry a long ways afterwards.

These are useful solely for hunting.
Center of critter out to 125 yards.
Lots of mv spread and tilted bullet seating.

They do throw some strays both vertical and horizontal.

 

[justin amateur]

Saturday morning, pre-front conditions were gorgeous.
Wind from the SSW at 4 to 6 mph. Behind the tree line on the 50 yard range
winds were minimal and temps were in the mid 60's F.

455 SOF on the Sinclair bipod with the Lilja 17 hmr barrel

CCI TNT 17 grain jhp 17 grain 17 hmr

Some nice runs of hits on center...

Which is why this batch of 17 hmr is my go to for small game open field ammo.
0.7 inches of vertical, 1 inch of horizontal, hunting ammo, not for precision shooting.

 

[justin amateur]

Eley Semi-Auto Benchrest Precision 40 grain 22lr

CZ 455 Varmint with factory heavy barrel

0.9 inches of vertical, 1.2 inches horizontal
2 moa plus at 50 yards.


Shooting for group size is misleading.
Makes my results look better than they are.
When I do my best to hit where I'm aiming,
it's obvious that the ammunition, setup and rifle can't get it done.

 

[Bean]

In order to maintain sub-moa at 50 yards, all bullet holes must show up less than 0.26 inch
from grid intersect to center of impact.

I'm sure I'm being dense here so please help me out. If 1 moa at 50 yards is 0.52" why are you using the 0.26" requirement? I get that measuring 0.26 to either side of the grid intersect is 1 moa, but that doesn't change the fact that if you hit 0.26" from your POA, that's 1/2 moa. So if the object is to be sub-moa, why isn't the requirement to hit less than 0.52" from the POA? Thanks.

 

[justin amateur]

In order to claim a sub moa group at 50 yards, all 5 shots must impact less than 0.52 inches center to center
at it's widest point. Now add the requirement that you have to center that group on point of aim.
I adjust to the current conditions by shooting 5 at a bullseye, then dialing the crosshairs
to the center of the just shot group. Then send another 5 to verify the new group is impacting on center.
So in order to obtain sub moa the group must not only meet the dimensional requirements,.
it must also be centered on point of aim, hit what you aim at. With moa being 0.52 inches,
centered on the aimpoint means in order to claim sub moa, no bullet can impact more than
0.26 inches from point of aim. What good is bragging about a sub moa group, when it's
3 inches from the point of aim. A sub moa group that hits on center,
indicates you can fulfill the requirement of Rule #1...hit what you aim at.

Look, sub moa at 200 yards with rimfire. Too bad those groups wander up down left right.
Too bad each group didn't hit centered where I was aiming. 30 shots fired, 2 hit where I intended.

 

[Bean]

I totally get your point about groups, above. But... you eloquently made the point that groups don't tell you much about the ability to successfully achieve Rule #1. I agree. So then you moved on to single shots at individual targets, and at that point you're not talking about groups anymore. One target, one shot. If you're under 0.52" from your POA at 50 yards, you are sub moa for that shot on that target. The POI IS less than 1 moa from the POA. Main point here is "Good shooting, Justin!"

I tried my first grid yesterday and really enjoyed it. My home range is only 25 meters though, and I shoot from a section of scaffolding which adds its own issue. I'm happy with the first attempt with plenty of room for improvement. Circled ones don't meet your requirements, they are 0.25" or less. One issue I found is that the grid and crosshairs started swimming after awhile with my old eyes. I'll need to slow down and rest them, but it was friggin' cold!

CZ 457 with factory 24" barrel
CCI Quiet-22
Bipod and rear bags

(Edit Seems my full size JPEG exceeds the sites resolution capability as it's cutting off the bottom. I'll try a smaller one next time)

 

[justin amateur]

Morning Turbo...2 out of 30 is funny as heck.
I was trying but hitting a 3/4 inch bull ain't easy.
Not at 200 yards.

Bean, so if you were to build the group size from 5 shots,
relative to the grid intersects, would those 5 shots be a sub moa group?
It's still 5 shots, still at an aimpoint, what would the group measure?
The aggregate from 10 shots? 25? 50 shots?
The grid lets me build aggregates to determine just how bad I'm doing.
Tracking results over time to check for improvement and cartridge quality.

 

[Bean]

It really depends on how you want to look at the aggregates. The data can also be used to figure what percentage of a group of single shots were within 1 moa of the POA. That speaks directly to the question of Rule #1 you pointed out. When I take a shot, how likely am I to hit within a certain distance from my aim point? Either method can be used to track results over time or cartridge quality as long as the data is used consistently. Nuff said. This is your thread and your methodology and I'm not trying to criticize it at all.

 

[justin amateur]

No worries bean.
Discussion is a good thing.
Post some more grids, include pics of setup and range.
I need the rifle pron.

 

[justin amateur]

Spring has sprung here in Florida.
Warm, almost no wind, good day to try something different.

Comment was made that shooting the Grid results in more spread
due to the constant shifting from aimpoint to aimpoint.
Can't say I know the answer without trying it, right?

Couple boxes of Prime Semi-Auto from the same brick.
CZ 455 Varmint with factory barrel, heavy bags.

Find out what happens with 50 shots at a single aimpoint at 50 yards...

CBF was the first shot of the morning, typical, high and left.
Not included in the group measurements.
The next shot hit 1/4 inch high on center.
Next hit 1/4 left of center. Next 3/8 left and 1/4 low.
Audible differences in muzzle report matched vertical spread.
Loud went high, weak hit low.

Total spread maintaining a single point of aim,
1.1 inch vertical, 1.2 inch horizontal.

Then the Grid with 50 shifts in point of aim.
Results should be worse according to previous comments.
All that body movement and realignment of the rifle both vertically and horizontally on the bags.

Hunh....look at that, 0.9 inches of horizontal, 1 inch of vertical.
Tighter results even with all the moving around and rifle shifts.

I dont' think the Grid causes increased spread.
Aiming is aiming, maintaining body position during follow through is muscle memory.
Results are dependent on ammunition quality and wind reading.
With the almost zero wind movement this morning, it appears to be ammo differences to blame.

 

[grauhanen]

Two different boxes of the same lot of ammo were used. This can produce somewhat different results.

 

[justin amateur]

Yep, that's my thinking G.
Difference in spread is ammunition related, not method.
Doesn't matter group or grid, aggregate spread will be similar.
Single aimpoint for 50 shots or 50 different aimpoints,
looks to me that cartridge quality and wind skills have more effect on results.

Shooting 3 or 5 shot groups allows for cherry picking.
The 25 or 50 shot grid isn't so convenient for the shooter's ego.

 

[Fuckmikebush]

Yep, that's my thinking G.
Difference in spread is ammunition related, not method.
Doesn't matter group or grid, aggregate spread will be similar.
Single aimpoint for 50 shots or 50 different aimpoints,
looks to me that cartridge quality and wind skills have more effect on results.

Shooting 3 or 5 shot groups allows for cherry picking.
The 25 or 50 shot grid isn't so convenient for the shooter's ego.

Instead of these hand drawn grids shoot at a scoreable target, such as ara, psl, ir50 ,
bp150 ,abra . Most benchrest matches are shot for score .22 rimfire no groups. Do you use flags when shooting? You bring in a lot variables that can't be answered with your method. Doesn't matter if it seems there is no wind there is always some conditions while shooting outdoors. Then your setup , we'll it is less than ideal for such test and coming to conclusions about ammo quality. Was it poor setup of rest, was it a condition? Was it the lot didn't like your gun was it you that didn't pull the trigger at the right time. These are all questions you can not answer.

 

[justin amateur]

All points applicable Turbo.
I'm working with what I have.
No access to an indoor range or testing tunnel.
Shooting off heavy bags so I have to control the rifle.
I could drop the barrel and action into the barrel block Fuglie,
but this is about results produced with the involvement of the shooter.
I hunt, varmint control open fields, wind flags rarely convenient on the farmland.
So I practice how I hunt, watching the environmentals and the feel of breeze on face, neck, ears.
Anyone wishing to show how it should be done, in an approved scientific manner, please do so.
The information derived would be greatly appreciated.

All my posts are related to questions asked, or advice offered, during discussions regarding rimfire.
Try things out for myself to determine what works, what doesn't.
Sometimes the results contradict accepted beliefs.

I don't compete.
No need of proprietary targets.
No need to waste printer paper or ink.
I'm interested only in one thing...can I hit where I aim.
If I can't, what is the cause? Me? The rifle? The ammunition?
If I missed, by how much?
The Grid allows me to measure directly from the horizontal and vertical lines to center of hole.
I can measure aggregate group size without any software or computer time.
Free cardboard, a straightedge, a marker and I have a target that doesn't allow cherry picking.
No selective editing, no way to claim "all day long".

Interestingly enough, very few are willing to show their results with the grid.
For some reason when you have to show all the shots fired,
consistent sub-moa results don't seem to happen.

 

[justin amateur]

Another meeting of the minds, over breakfast, before heading to the range.
The old coots discussion of groups and grid resulted in the idea of groups on grid.

"But y'er gonna shoot out y'er point of aim!"

"No y'er not...line up cross hairs with the horizontal and vertical grid lines."

"It's only 5 shots, on center, the visual alignment overlay will result in a single point of aim."

"I don't know, sounds iffy to me, it's y'er grid, go do it."


Okay, sounds like something I can attempt.
5 shot groups and try to hit what I'm aiming at.


Wind from the East, 4 to 6 mph, off the heavy bags at 50 yards.
The CZ 455 Varmint needs to have the front rest just forward of the mag well.
Otherwise stock flex causes a springboard effect and lots of spread on target.

First 5 shot group is to adjust the scope to center of cluster.
Next 9 groups are after adjusting the scope.
Those 9 groups are used to measure the aggregate spread of 45 shots.

SK Semi-Auto 40 grain 22lr
Factory barrel still being tracked for bore wear...

Best group 0.5 inches, worst 0.8 inches

aggregate size 1.1 inch vertical, 1.0 inch horizontal

SK High Velocity Match 40 grain 22lr

Best group 0.4 inches, worst 1 inch
Aggregate 1.2 inches of vertical, 1.2 inches horizontal

Eley Semi-Auto Benchrest Outlaw 40 grain 22lr

Best group 0.3 inches, worst 1.0 inch
Aggregates 0.9 inch vertical, 1.2 inch horizontal

Doesn't seem to matter which method used, groups or grid,
overall spread still works out to 2 moa, plus or minus, at 50 yards.
That's the expected accuracy of the CZ 455 at 50 yards.
Random acts of accuracy do occur, but 2 moa "all day long" is what happens.

 

[Williwaw]

Random acts of accuracy do occur, but 2 moa "all day long" is what happens.

ONLY if you do your part. Isn't that also part of the 'all day long mantra'.

 

[Fuckmikebush]

Another meeting of the minds, over breakfast, before heading to the range.
The old coots discussion of groups and grid resulted in the idea of groups on grid.

"But y'er gonna shoot out y'er point of aim!"

"No y'er not...line up cross hairs with the horizontal and vertical grid lines."

"It's only 5 shots, on center, the visual alignment overlay will result in a single point of aim."

"I don't know, sounds iffy to me, it's y'er grid, go do it."


Okay, sounds like something I can attempt.
5 shot groups and try to hit what I'm aiming at.


Wind from the East, 4 to 6 mph, off the heavy bags at 50 yards.
The CZ 455 Varmint needs to have the front rest just forward of the mag well.
Otherwise stock flex causes a springboard effect and lots of spread on target.

First 5 shot group is to adjust the scope to center of cluster.
Next 9 groups are after adjusting the scope.
Those 9 groups are used to measure the aggregate spread of 45 shots.

SK Semi-Auto 40 grain 22lr
Factory barrel still being tracked for bore wear...

Best group 0.5 inches, worst 0.8 inches

aggregate size 1.1 inch vertical, 1.0 inch horizontal

SK High Velocity Match 40 grain 22lr

Best group 0.4 inches, worst 1 inch
Aggregate 1.2 inches of vertical, 1.2 inches horizontal

Eley Semi-Auto Benchrest Outlaw 40 grain 22lr

Best group 0.3 inches, worst 1.0 inch
Aggregates 0.9 inch vertical, 1.2 inch horizontal

Doesn't seem to matter which method used, groups or grid,
overall spread still works out to 2 moa, plus or minus, at 50 yards.
That's the expected accuracy of the CZ 455 at 50 yards.
Random acts of accuracy do occur, but 2 moa "all day long" is what happens.

Once again your setup is less than ideal for such test and determinations of your ammo. The ammo chosen is junk don't expect br quality or results. No flags lmao well you're just guessing. So these test are completely invalid and useless. Get a proper set up and maybe some better ammo and some flags then start your test. You have to many variables coming into play with your "test" in the grid.

 

[justin amateur]

Good morning Turbo...nope, sticking with what I have and the method being used.
Factory CZ 455 Varmint, pillared and bedded, single set trigger that breaks at 10 ounces.
Practical accuracy at an easy to duplicate distance with all the results shown.
No pretending I can do better than what is posted. This is a factory Sporter in 22lr
using inexpensive ammunition and heavy bags...not a Turbo actioned chassis with
a custom fit Bartlien barrel on a high end mechanical rest using lot tested Tenex or X-Act,
indoors off a massive poured concrete bench.

Realistic results, not cherry picked or biased in any way.
What you see is what you get. There is no sub moa "all day long".
If you would like to show how it should be done, do so.
The information would be greatly appreciated.
What kind of set up does it require to truly keep results sub-moa at 50 yards, consistently.
It sure isn't a 450 dollar rifle with a 300 dollar scope on 30 bucks worth of heavy bags
using inexpensive 22lr ammunition, is it? Although there are those who claim otherwise.

When someone claims sub-moa "all day long", I ask them to try a Grid at 50 yards.
As y'all have seen, not too many takers willing to post their results.

Kinda makes you wonder why, eh?


Side note...I receive comments, messages, emails, thanking me
for posting all of my results, not just my random acts of accuracy.
Allows folks to compare their results to mine, when using similar equipment and ammo.
They appreciate the transparency.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Good morning Turbo...nope, sticking with what I have and the method being used.
Factory CZ 455 Varmint, pillared and bedded, single set trigger that breaks at 10 ounces.
Practical accuracy at an easy to duplicate distance with all the results shown.
No pretending I can do better than what is posted. This is a factory Sporter in 22lr
using inexpensive ammunition and heavy bags...not a Turbo actioned chassis with
a custom fit Bartlien barrel on a high end mechanical rest using lot tested Tenex or X-Act,
indoors off a massive poured concrete bench.

Realistic results, not cherry picked or biased in any way.
What you see is what you get. There is no sub moa "all day long".
If you would like to show how it should be done, do so.
The information would be greatly appreciated.
What kind of set up does it require to truly keep results sub-moa at 50 yards, consistently.
It sure isn't a 450 dollar rifle with a 300 dollar scope on 30 bucks worth of heavy bags
using inexpensive 22lr ammunition, is it? Although there are those who claim otherwise.

When someone claims sub-moa "all day long", I ask them to try a Grid at 50 yards.
As y'all have seen, not too many takers willing to post their results.

Kinda makes you wonder why, eh?


Side note...I receive comments, messages, emails, thanking me
for posting all of my results, not just my random acts of accuracy.
Allows folks to compare their results to mine, when using similar equipment and ammo.
They appreciate the transparency.

Keep doing what you are doing, I find it refreshing. If I could retain interest long enough to shoot 50 on paper, I would shoot the grid.
I have bragged up my 10-22, shooting SV, Leupold 1-6, well, we finally shot a kyl at 100 with it, with 5/8" being the smallest. It didn't happen, heck I could not even pick my misses up, lol

 

[rick137]

@justin amateur

Hi Justin. Long time, no see. I agree with your thinking 110%. Accuracy group size, not precision group size is what counts but more, perhaps much more, difficult to achieve. I like your idea of a grid but easier for me to create a target using drafting software. At 200yd no issue with bullet holes in the same place, unfortunately.

This summer I am going to see how many of 50 shots hit within a 0.30 mrad disk, equal to 1.03MOA with no expense spared and a retired Marine Corps sniper doing the shooting. It will be a single shot rifle so no damage loading the bullets and a competition mechanical rest on a bench. Then, may even see what improvement can be had with a tuner. Fortunately there is no wind at my range in the spring and summer. I have high hopes the percentage of shots within the disk, best edge scoring, will be 100%.

Rick

 

[AirGunShawn]

Milo 2.5,

I feel your pain...

Once my interest goes, so does my accuracy. Even if the interest only slips a a little bit my focus goes to hell.
Years ago, I was invited to Florida for some shooting and they super glued aspirin to thin music wires about 4inches long.
Something like .025" diameter. They were fun because they were dynamic and would powder like miniature skeet.

When I compete, we shoot knock over targets and hitting the kill zone is all that matters. The last photo is the targets we shoot.
If you miss or even hit the edge of the hole, the target locks in the upright position and you get a big fat ZERO.

I happen to catch an article from one of the top woman air rifle shooters and she said two things that caught my eye.
Make sure that every shot that you take is done in the same way. Same stance, speed, trigger pull, everything.
"She shoots fairly quickly and gives it her full concentration, fighting for every point. A nine makes her mad even in training."

The other was trigger related and it seemed to fly in the face of most of the stuff that I read on forums.
She said to be... see the image below. Her trigger is set to about 30 grams and that is virtually an ounce.
28.35 grams is an ounce.

I know she is just an air rifle shooter but I have to agree with her. Especially the "Decisive" trigger work.

I used to have UPS make me targets on thick card stock and shoot groups. Recently I was introduced to the Bullet Pro 150 target.
I had it copied on to card stock and I really like it. The card stock makes for very clean holes and the one shot per bull gives me
instant feedback.

I recently bought a Gehman E-Z scoring plug for $12.00 on evil bay. #372097272349. It makes scoring super fast and eliminates
any guess work. I only want points that I deserve and this makes it clear if I do or don't. This is .22 Magnified model and I feel it is the
way to go. You can see in photo number 6 how clear the magnifier makes it.

I get some nice AR500 targets and hangers on evil-bay. They are meant to be oriented like photo number seven but that makes them
way to big for 65 yards and that is all I have when shooting from the garage. If I mount them sideways like photo number eight I get all
of the benefit's of banging steel. Shooting becomes FUN again !!
The rubber tube keeps the target from swinging off when shot in this orientation.

Photo four is my first time with my B14R and the new Bullet Pro 150 targets.

I have only shot dot drills at 500 yards with CF rifles, and not 50 shots, maybe 10 over the course of a range session. I am going to try this, and have been wanting to for yrs. One bad thing about repetitive shooting for me is boredom, and things can go south rather quickly once the interest has waned.
I'll try stay in the game.

 

[sparkyv]

I too, find your testing interesting, justin amateur. Are your testing conditions perfect? No, but no system is. Having the means or the access to a near perfect test system is beyond the reach of many of us. I'm not new to shooting, but I am a noob to pecision shooting, and I find your body of work entertaining and educational. Keep it up!

 

[Fuckmikebush]

I too, find your testing interesting, justin amateur. Are your testing conditions perfect? No, but no system is. Having the means or the access to a near perfect test system is beyond the reach of many of us. I'm not new to shooting, but I am a noob to pecision shooting, and I find your body of work entertaining and educational. Keep it up!

It's not about a perfect system. It's about a repeatable system and knowing your conditions. In his test how can he determine a miss, was it his setup, was it ammo, was it wind, was it his gun, or was it just him with poor shooting habits? With no flags he can never ever determine if it was wind or otherwise. I always test outdoors but with a proper setup and wind flags. When a miss occurs I know it was me or a bad round. He has to many variables to make anything he's done valid. You can always like something even if it is done incorrectly

 

[justin amateur]

Turbo ain't wrong.

If ya' wanted to test ammunition and eliminate all the other variables
it needs to be done with much better equipment and in a controlled environment.
If you want prove that the shooter, rifle and ammunition are capable of consistent sub-moa,
the most reliable method is still organized competitions, with a standardized target, shot for score,
and witnesses to verify the results....not a single 5 shot group 2 inches off from point of aim.


If seeing what a mass produced rifle can do at 50 yards with a variety of cartridges,
outdoors, by a less than expert shooter, that'd be my results. No sub-moa "all day long".

I figure if I keep posting long enough, I'll push a few of ya' into showing just what y'er rifles are capable of.
Be nice to see what some 17hm2, 17hmr, 22wmr and serious match 22lr can do, for all 50 shots, not a few cherry picked clusters.

Don't forget to include pics of the rifle, setup, view downrange along with y'er results.
I like my rifle pron.

 

[sparkyv]

I get it. I understand variance reduction. My point is that one can still learn from such activities...and it's also entertaining.

It's not about a perfect system. It's about a repeatable system and knowing your conditions. In his test how can he determine a miss, was it his setup, was it ammo, was it wind, was it his gun, or was it just him with poor shooting habits? With no flags he can never ever determine if it was wind or otherwise. I always test outdoors but with a proper setup and wind flags. When a miss occurs I know it was me or a bad round. He has to many variables to make anything he's done valid. You can always like something even if it is done incorrectly

Turbo ain't wrong.

If ya' wanted to test ammunition and eliminate all the other variables
it needs to be done with much better equipment and in a controlled environment.
If you want prove that the shooter, rifle and ammunition are capable of consistent sub-moa,
the most reliable method is still organized competitions, with a standardized target, shot for score,
and witnesses to verify the results....not a single 5 shot group 2 inches off from point of aim.

 

[Milo 2.5]

Milo 2.5,

I feel your pain...

Once my interest goes, so does my accuracy. Even if the interest only slips a a little bit my focus goes to hell.
Years ago, I was invited to Florida for some shooting and they super glued aspirin to thin music wires about 4inches long.
Something like .025" diameter. They were fun because they were dynamic and would powder like miniature skeet.

When I compete, we shoot knock over targets and hitting the kill zone is all that matters. The last photo is the targets we shoot.
If you miss or even hit the edge of the hole, the target locks in the upright position and you get a big fat ZERO.

I happen to catch an article from one of the top woman air rifle shooters and she said two things that caught my eye.
Make sure that every shot that you take is done in the same way. Same stance, speed, trigger pull, everything.
"She shoots fairly quickly and gives it her full concentration, fighting for every point. A nine makes her mad even in training."

The other was trigger related and it seemed to fly in the face of most of the stuff that I read on forums.
She said to be... see the image below. Her trigger is set to about 30 grams and that is virtually an ounce.
28.35 grams is an ounce.

I know she is just an air rifle shooter but I have to agree with her. Especially the "Decisive" trigger work.

I used to have UPS make me targets on thick card stock and shoot groups. Recently I was introduced to the Bullet Pro 150 target.
I had it copied on to card stock and I really like it. The card stock makes for very clean holes and the one shot per bull gives me
instant feedback.

I recently bought a Gehman E-Z scoring plug for $12.00 on evil bay. #372097272349. It makes scoring super fast and eliminates
any guess work. I only want points that I deserve and this makes it clear if I do or don't. This is .22 Magnified model and I feel it is the
way to go. You can see in photo number 6 how clear the magnifier makes it.

I get some nice AR500 targets and hangers on evil-bay. They are meant to be oriented like photo number seven but that makes them
way to big for 65 yards and that is all I have when shooting from the garage. If I mount them sideways like photo number eight I get all
of the benefit's of banging steel. Shooting becomes FUN again !!
The rubber tube keeps the target from swinging off when shot in this orientation.

Photo four is my first time with my B14R and the new Bullet Pro 150 targets.

I really don't have the discipline for paper shooting, we are all different. I see the validity of it though. I read in this post about cherry picking groups, or results, being I do not shoot indoors, cherry picking shooting conditions is real.
Repeatability from one day to the next gets tough, one day 10" steel is needed at 300 yards and may be too small, the next, a 5 or 6" works fine. I like most want the most out of my rifles, and understand at times I am the weakest link.
I think in rimfire, even more so than centerfire, if you want pinpoint accuracy, you will be shopping with your bankcard at some point, either with ammo or a new platform, new barrel, or shipping your rifle off for ammo testing.
I have a new Vudoo coming, can't wait to test against my Rim X, because the bar was set high.

 

[AirGunShawn]

AZ Dan,
Your wrapping paper idea is fabulous!! I love it.

I have about 15 guns at this time and they are basically factory guns. The one thing I will do is some trigger work and that is generally
lapping with Aluminum Oxide lapping film. I start with 9 micron and finish with 3 micron. Currently lubrication
is done with Dupont Krytox grease. It's basic description is: Extreme Pressure Grease, Synthetic, PTFE, Molybdenum.

And I may change the spring arrangement as required. In my B14R, I added a long nose spring plunger to counter act the internal factory
torsion spring. There is an existing hole, indicated by the pin punch that needs to be opened up for a #6-32 thread. It's a $5.00 / 20 minute job
and brings the trigger down to 11 ounces and also incorporates an adjustable sear feature.

I do have one POS.... It's a Zastava MP22. It's worst feature is a wretched trigger. Last year I put a Leupold 6.5 x 20EFR scope on her
for testing. I started with Center X like I always do and it didn't care for it. As you can see, the SK red box did pretty well.
The circles are .50" and 1" diameter.

My over all point is, It's my belief that the biggest variable by far is the human element and it's the cause of most misses.
I think the second biggest variable is the powder charge energy output.
The rest of the gun is a pretty stable arrangement that doesn't change much from shot to shot.

Justin,
post #80,
I will have to test your bi-pod location observation.
Post #70
IIs that an app on your phone for ctc. measure?
Post #54
It looks like your Fuglie locks the gun in place via the barrel.
Have you ever considered mounting the action to a bearing block that would allow rearward movement only.
We all know newtons third law.... as soon as you detonate the cartridge your rifle has no choice but to recoil.
If you allow it to move rearward in a controlled fasion for about .50", your bullet will be out of the barrel before
you experience any.... muzzle raise motion.
Feinwerkbau did this in their Olympic air rifles and pistols. FWB 65 and FWB 300.
They took more gold metals than any other guns by far.

My Vudoo was just over 18 pounds and it still moved around a little. The muzzle energy of our match bullets (40x 1070) is just over
100 pounds and that is pushing your gun rearward. It only has muzzle raise because the center line of the butt plate is
below the bore axis by about four inches.

If you look at the FWB stock just below the rear sight you will notice a black metal tongue and a slot in the wood. When fired, the entire action moves rearward about 1/4" while the pellet is moving forward. The gun does have muzzle raise when it runs out of travel but it only occurs after the pellet has left the barrel. The action is guide by three pins, two in the front and one in the rear. Three pins create a stable plane.
I'm just tossing it out for you guy's to consider.
If I understand the BR guy's, the reason that they use Teflon covered rear bags is to allow rearward motion.

 

[justin amateur]

Shawn, that's OnTarget, the freeware version.
Still have a copy of the install package on my backup hard drive.
I keep adding it to my lastest version of Windows, still works.

Free recoil is how I use the Sinclair bipod and Fuglie.
Minimal contact with the stock, finger only on the trigger.
Same with my F-Class 223...

The less I interact with the rifle, the better the results.

 

[AirGunShawn]

Justin,

Have you tried putting some UHWM or PTFE under your Fuglie or Sinclair bi-pod to allow them to slide.
They are about the slickest polymers on the planet.

As I see your Fuglie, I wish I had not given away my router and router table last year. I'm always looking for new ways to have fun
and experiment.

I have a couple of Atlas bi-pods that I really like but I may need to look into a Sinclair. She looks sexy !!

It looks like I see a tint of RED.... Is that a Calvin Elite? How do you like it? Can you compare it to a Jewell HVR or Trigger Tech Diamond?
I wanted to get a Bix with a trigger rail but they are out of stock and they are about $485.00 That seems a bit steep for my Bergara B14R.

Thanks for the freeware info....

Shawn, that's OnTarget, the freeware version.
Still have a copy of the install package on my backup hard drive.
I keep adding it to my lastest version of Windows, still works.

Free recoil is how I use the Sinclair bipod and Fuglie.
Minimal contact with the stock, finger only on the trigger.
Same with my F-Class 223...

The less I interact with the rifle, the better the results.

 

[justin amateur]

Shawn...Trigger is the Accutrigger that came with the single shot receiver.
Breaks at 6 ounces, better than my limited skills need.
It's the target action for those of us that like assembling our rifles.
Shilen Match Select 26 inch heavy barrel on a heavy flat bottomed laminated stock.

PM sent

 

[rick137]

My goal is to see if it is possible to consistently shoot 50 rounds of 22LR into an 0.3mrad diameter disk at 200yd. 0.3mrad=1.03MOA. Acccuracy groups!

There are several advantages to shooting at one target. One is simply accounting, just have to count the hits inside the target area or outside the target area depending on your marksmanship. Second is judging what is a hit by looking at the target rather than measuring. Whether by measurement or eyeball there will be holes, that if you are honest, you just do not know. There have been extensive posts on SH concerning what constitutes the edge of a bullet hole and in my opinion they are mostly fruitless. So I plan on three categories, hits, misses and don't knows. The real advantage may be that with different aim points you have to continually adjust the POA. I presume even with a single POA shooting using a mechanical benchrest in returning the rifle to battery some adjustments are necessary but perhaps less than with both returning to battery and changing the POA. Perhaps not.

The target is shown below.

 

[AirGunShawn]

I used to shoot groups on thick card stock because the bullet holes printed so cleanly. They were my own design based on
trial and error. All they told me was if I was inside of the base line outer diameter of .56". That is what the Vudoo shot at Lapua
so it seemed a good place to start. I could pick up any of my guns and see how it compared.

Then I was introduced to the Bullet Pro 150 target and I found it to be full of advantages. I also have it printed on thick card stock.
One being that I could hear someone's score and and get a feel for how they are shooting. It gives you feedback for the variables.
It forces me to focus more to keep my scores high. I can watch how the shots are trending and make corrections. Moving POA from
spot to spot is a reasonable and necessary part of shooting for me to develop. There is no competition where I wont have to change
my POA or my entire body when I change lanes. For me, getting as close to match conditions is the best approach.

Many people say that their gun shoots lights out.... WTH does that mean? Like many people, I want to see a bunch of individual
shots on a standardized target.

I would never go back to any type of single POA target. If it became to costly I would duplicate the dot and two inner rings of
the target and make it like photo #5. that has 35 spots and I can get 50 easily. I don't need all of that wasted space for 50 yards.

I recently spent $12.00 on a Gehman scoring plug. If you zoom up on it you will see how beneficial it would be.

..............................

 

[justin amateur]

Lights out?

I was told it was from shooting the flame off a lit candle,
without disturbing the wax in any way, back in the old West.

Nowadays it indicates the locals are using street lights for target practice.

 

[AirGunShawn]

​

Shoot the lights out......

""To perform exceptionally well; to completely dominate one's opponent.""

I just looked it up and most of it's references were related to basket ball. LoL

If someone were to show me a video of 25 candles being extinguished at 50 yards I would even feel that was an expectable
demonstration of the guns accuracy. But just using the expression is to broad a description for my taste.

If I said I had a lights out flight in my hang glider, what would a person expect it to be? I lived in flat lower Michigan
and the glider has no motor. I get towed up to 2500 feet AGL and then Lisa waves me off. It has a glide ratio of 8:1 or less
in calm air with no headwinds.
Doesn't that sound like I could expect to travel 3.78 miles from release to landing?

We all understand it to means great shooting but it tells me nothing because everyone has different idea of what
good performance is. My idea of accurate starts at about .31" ctc. at 50 yards for .22LR.
Anything bigger than that they are just OK guns that need some attention.

I have a $275.00 Zastava MP22 and it shoots ok and would be a nice beater gun for the woods or to leave in my truck.
It's biggest problem is it's rudimentary trigger. The rest of it is pretty nice. Which reminds me... I need to fix a FTE issue.
The mags are 9 shot and could use some lov'n and the mag release is privative and stiff..... but fixable.

Shot #6 was all me, the aim point was the dot and the circles are .50" and 1" My biggest reason to take it to the LGC is to make
people feel bad about the performance of their 3K guns. ;-)

I once told a guy at work that I thought Kathy Ireland was pretty, he said she looked like she was hit in the face with a frying pan.
My idea of pretty is my pal Britt shown below.


///////////////

 

[rick137]

I used to shoot groups on thick card stock because the bullet holes printed so cleanly. They were my own design based on
trial and error. All they told me was if I was inside of the base line outer diameter of .56". That is what the Vudoo shot at Lapua
so it seemed a good place to start. I could pick up any of my guns and see how it compared.

Then I was introduced to the Bullet Pro 150 target and I found it to be full of advantages. I also have it printed on thick card stock.
One being that I could hear someone's score and and get a feel for how they are shooting. It gives you feedback for the variables.
It forces me to focus more to keep my scores high. I can watch how the shots are trending and make corrections. Moving POA from
spot to spot is a reasonable and necessary part of shooting for me to develop. There is no competition where I wont have to change
my POA or my entire body when I change lanes. For me, getting as close to match conditions is the best approach.

Many people say that their gun shoots lights out.... WTH does that mean? Like many people, I want to see a bunch of individual
shots on a standardized target.

I would never go back to any type of single POA target. If it became to costly I would duplicate the dot and two inner rings of
the target and make it like photo #5. that has 35 spots and I can get 50 easily. I don't need all of that wasted space for 50 yards.

I recently spent $12.00 on a Gehman scoring plug. If you zoom up on it you will see how beneficial it would be.

..............................

@AirGunShawn

No arguments with your methodology if you want the ultimate measurements. I used to shoot a single targets and use On-Target to compute all the stats. For two hours at the range I found it took one hour to analyze the target. Fair enough but I realized that that time could be spent dry firing if I used a target like I showed. And I was shooting standing offhand, my true love. The reason for the analysis was to determine if I needed to adjust my scope from the settings I determined from supported shooting on a bench.

Its all about the game you want to play. I am still faithful to my true love. However, I am not a stranger to experimentation, having done experiments for my thesis. This is the deal, what is the maximum effective range of 22LR ammunition? On one hand, anyway you define it. No absolute definition exist. I define it as being able to keep 50 shots within a 0.30 milrad disk, = 1.03MOA, with ideal environmental conditions, particularly no wind. And with the most stable support possible, the finest equipment, finest always being subjective, and no time limit. Posts on SH have demonstrated it is possible for 50 yd but I know of no such results for longer distances. I have tried to cajole/goad benchrest shooters to do the experiment for longer distances, obviously starting at 100 yd. No takers. It may be that 50 shots at a single target is heresy and gets you excommunicated. Again, fair enough, play the game you want.

So I will undertake the experiment myself although I do not think I will ever truly love benchrest shooting. I would gladly supply the equipment and ammunition and have somebody else do the shooting. And gain the glory. What really interests me are the results. In fact while he/she is conducting the experiment I could be happily shooting standing offhand. If the experiment were a success, the person could try for even more glory at 200 yd. My hypothesis is a distance between 100 yd and less than 300 yd, perhaps less than 200 yd, is the maximum effective range of 22LR ammunition with conventional lead bullets and by definition. With wind, less stable support and less than accomplished marksmanship the maximum effective distance is less, considerably so my case.

So @AirGunShawn we have no disagreement, just different ways of having fun.