Has anyone received the new SAC sizing die? If so what are your impressions?
I should be receiving mine the middle of next week.
I should be receiving mine the middle of next week.
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The new SAC sizing die
- Thread starter ljmontano
- Start date
My impressions based on limited use are very good. I’m getting consistent results with very little runout. I haven’t use their mandrels as I’m honestly still wrapping my head around doing that in a single step. Still using gauge pins in a Porter Precision die right after the SAC sizing die.
I have the modular creed and use it with their mandrel. Runout and NT with a single sizing stage are comparable with my previous two stage Forster full length plus 21CS mandrels routine. 6 and 6.5 creed, Lapua brass, annealed every firing.
I have the gt and creedmoor dies, the decapping mandrel really saves time in how I only have to pull the press twice, once for sizing/decapping/mandreling, and once for seating. It's fast
Once I'm out of hybrids, I'll be doing the same thing. Be sure to post what you think about them or pm me, if u would.
I've been happy with them so far. Very consistent bump and being able to change with the shims is a nice touch. Being able to size, decap, and mandrel all in 1 stroke of the press is a huge time saver.
Received the Vapor Trails today but the damn wind was terrible, hopefully it will calm down tomorrow evening. I don’t think it has stop blowing for the last two years!
Is a brand new product? I thought you could only decap or mandrel with their dies and not both?
It's a new add on. Carbide decapper with a ground portion that expands on the upstroke. I haven't seen them on the website in a while, but if you give them a call I'm sure you'll get squared away
I have the BR. Saves time, results are good. Make sure the top cap is wrench-tight. Hand tight isn’t enough to take all the slack out of the collet/shoulder stack.
A caution: Mine has just enough ridge at the ground mandrel section that I have to be careful if I try to put a piece of brass through the die twice (like you might do while adjusting during setup). The mouth will sometimes catch on the ground section positively enough to crush the shoulder as the mandrel tries to insert back into the neck. Yes my mouth are chamfered and I AMP ever time. It’s a spring back thing, I think. Mark says they are working on quality control of the mandrel from the supplier…it’s a custom job…and use imperial die wax and not sum bullshit (my words) like One Shot.
A caution: Mine has just enough ridge at the ground mandrel section that I have to be careful if I try to put a piece of brass through the die twice (like you might do while adjusting during setup). The mouth will sometimes catch on the ground section positively enough to crush the shoulder as the mandrel tries to insert back into the neck. Yes my mouth are chamfered and I AMP ever time. It’s a spring back thing, I think. Mark says they are working on quality control of the mandrel from the supplier…it’s a custom job…and use imperial die wax and not sum bullshit (my words) like One Shot.
Several of us around here have them, and have switched to them from Redding and Forster dies. They seem to produce very consistent brass - as or more consistent with less runout than our previous dies. Personally, I haven't had a chance to use mine much, yet, but so far, it's matching what the other guys in my circle are seeing that way.
The integrated mandrel is slick - it's ground in such a way that the expanding portion sits just below the neck while the neck is in the bushing. As you start to raise the press handle, the top of the mandrel enters the bottom of the neck while the top of the neck is still supported in the bushing, so everything stays nice and centered. I can't take advantage of it, yet, cause they don't yet make .25 cal mandrels, so I'm still using a Sinclair mandrel die.
The mandrel/decapper is relatively new and hasn't been on their site much - but that's sort of the ultimate size die at that point. What's traditionally been 3 steps can be done in one, which saves oodles of time at the press, and - due to their implementation and design - doesn't compromise on consistency. That said, no one in my circle has the decapper/mandrel combo, so no experience with that guy, yet...
The integrated mandrel is slick - it's ground in such a way that the expanding portion sits just below the neck while the neck is in the bushing. As you start to raise the press handle, the top of the mandrel enters the bottom of the neck while the top of the neck is still supported in the bushing, so everything stays nice and centered. I can't take advantage of it, yet, cause they don't yet make .25 cal mandrels, so I'm still using a Sinclair mandrel die.
The mandrel/decapper is relatively new and hasn't been on their site much - but that's sort of the ultimate size die at that point. What's traditionally been 3 steps can be done in one, which saves oodles of time at the press, and - due to their implementation and design - doesn't compromise on consistency. That said, no one in my circle has the decapper/mandrel combo, so no experience with that guy, yet...
Well the stopped blowing now it’s screaming with 50/60 mph gusts. Received the die today damn slick how the bushing sizes the neck and bumps the shoulder all in one. This is their new sizing die they were taking pre orders a couple months back, you can adjust the shoulder bump with shims which are included. SAC designs some sick shit!
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Sized 10 cases after setting the shoulder bump 2k. Checked run out on all 10 and they were all 1k or less and more the half were less. It appeared that the SAC die sized down a little further down on the case, then my original die and the interior was polished to a mirror finish. The orange locking ring was cool but was substituted for a Area 419 locking ring. Going to do a little load development tomorrow if the wind is not blowing 10,000 mph. Then load for a match on Saturday.
I turn necks and I’ve gotten IMHO good results by using SAC neck bushing in a Reding and Whidden neck bushing die. I’m waiting for these SAC dies to be in stock to order a Creedmoor modular die to load all the Creedmoor calibers.
I’m no opposed to using a mandrel with these new dies, however are any of you that turn necks and use these modular dies see any significant improvement with going with a mandrel?
I currently use a Whidden FL bushing resizer with SAC neck bushing and it does well, but I like that the SAC modular die the neck and should are all in one. Opposed to all the other dies that you’re able to adjust neck tension with which resize the neck and should with two separate parts (dies body & neck bushing).
I’m no opposed to using a mandrel with these new dies, however are any of you that turn necks and use these modular dies see any significant improvement with going with a mandrel?
I currently use a Whidden FL bushing resizer with SAC neck bushing and it does well, but I like that the SAC modular die the neck and should are all in one. Opposed to all the other dies that you’re able to adjust neck tension with which resize the neck and should with two separate parts (dies body & neck bushing).
Has anybody tried the SAC decapping mandrel? Currently I am decapping, sizing, and expanded. It would be nice to make that one operation..
Yes. So far, so good. Not enough use to give a complete review. Only 200 rounds sized/decapped/mandreled thus far. I'm working on actually shooting once fired then decapped/sized/mandrel now. IOW, I've loaded 200 rounds of virgin brass and have sized/decapped,mandrel 100 for a match this weekend.
Hoping someone can tell me what I’m doing wrong- can’t seem to bump the shoulder at all even with using all the shims.
I did just like their YouTube video said- ram all the way up, screw in die to touch, lower ram, screw in a little more (did about 1/4 turn).
Now with brass in the die the ram doesn’t touch the shell holder despite having cam-over I can feel.
I put all of the shims in (on top of the bushing) and I’m not getting any bump.
.268 bushing, alpha brass.
Thanks guys
I did just like their YouTube video said- ram all the way up, screw in die to touch, lower ram, screw in a little more (did about 1/4 turn).
Now with brass in the die the ram doesn’t touch the shell holder despite having cam-over I can feel.
I put all of the shims in (on top of the bushing) and I’m not getting any bump.
.268 bushing, alpha brass.
Thanks guys
What's weird is, myself and another guy locally (me shooting 25CM, him 6CM) have to back the die off from the shell holder in order to get proper bump with no shims installed. I was getting a .012" bump with the die set up with cam-over. That said, we're both using the MEC press, not a Zero - but really, that shouldn't make a difference between our issues?
I am using the BRA SAC die on the Zero press, and I have to use quite a bit of camover to get it to bump. Im not sure if this is correct or not.
Are you shimming the bushing, too? If not, you can likely do a bit less camover, and add appropriate bushings to get your bump.
I'm still learning how to use this die as well--6.5x47. On Mec press, all 4 shims in, my first run had inconsistent shoulder bump between 0 and .003". Thinking maybe I didn't let the lube dry long enough or didn't use enough. I've got some brass to process and try again soon.
The Redding Competition shell holder set will set the shoulder bump longer NOT shorter in .002" increments. If you're not getting enough shoulder bump, your two options are to either skim off the bottom of the sizing die or sand down a regular shell holder.
Just out of pure curiosity, what do the folks at SAC have to say about these problems?
I do notice that a bunch of "gunsmiths" short chamber. Often when rebarreling, before pulling a barrel i check headspace and if the customer wants it matched, i try my best.
Its weird when i get BOTH gauges fail because the chamber is too short, and when I ask why, i 99% get "oh, its a match chamber, dont you know match chambers are 4 thou short to make it more match gradey ?".
No idea who started this BS, however I often have shaved dies or shell holders for customers who have these magics "match chambers" and nothing fits.
We have go / no go gauges for a reason.
Perhaps this is where it stems from ?
Its weird when i get BOTH gauges fail because the chamber is too short, and when I ask why, i 99% get "oh, its a match chamber, dont you know match chambers are 4 thou short to make it more match gradey ?".
No idea who started this BS, however I often have shaved dies or shell holders for customers who have these magics "match chambers" and nothing fits.
We have go / no go gauges for a reason.
Perhaps this is where it stems from ?
I may be talking out my backside here, because I don’t have one of these dies, but just a guess - do you have the decapper adjusted down too far? You might be camming over against the decapper on the inner face of the flash hole.
@Yondering – Will double-check that although I don't think it's happening. Always worth it to see if it's just me being stupid.
I've reached out to them and they're in contact with Area419. I guess it's a systemic problem, although they were helpful in trying to troubleshoot it Their recommendations included (1) using a Area419 shellholder system to get the bump going (which are very hard to get ahold of nowadays), and/or (2) continue playing around with the die setup until you notice "a small amount of bump happening" when not using shims and then adjust using shims from there. Sounds like it's kind of a "need to keep fine tuning the setup until it works" sorta thing. So far, haven't been able to get it working yet. Any bump I notice is is within the range of measurement error for my calipers. Fingers crossed I can get this thing up and running without having to shave off some of the die or shellholder. If anyone has any other recommendations, I'm all ears!
SAC "The seating die" horrible runout
Recently loaded up ammo for last weekends match. 22gt 90 atips 35.8gr H4350. I have a zero press, tossed the new SAC seating die in. Seated 20 bullets and had a range of 007 to 003 total indicated runout, avg around 004. Removed the die, installed my Hornady 6gt seater with 88eldm stem in place...
www.snipershide.com
I just used my new SAC .223 modular sizing die for the first time today. A couple of things were not quite what I expected, but it is working very well now. I also ordered a .221 mandrel to use with it. I should also mention I am using Lapua brass.
Issues:
1. I ordered a .246 neck / shoulder bushing, but it actually measured .247 which left the neck ID too large to actually make use of the mandrel.
2. I didn't realize I needed an new ER11 6mm collet to use with the mandrel so I had to order it after the fact. This particular sizing die comes with a 5.5 mm collet for the decapping pin which has a smaller diameter than the mandrel by necessity. Just an oversight on my part.
It would be nice if this collet requirement was spelled out a little more clearly on the sizing die page. On the sizing die product page it does not mention needing a new ER11 6mm collet if you want to use a mandrel - it also doesn't mention the collet size it ships with. On the mandrel page it mentions needing a 6mm collet if you don't already have one, but the collet size that ships standard with the sizing die is not mentioned.
I contacted SAC about issue #1 and they sent me a .245 neck / shoulder bushing free of charge which worked perfectly.
While speaking about this issue they also mentioned I would need a smaller C clip for the mandrel so it could be placed further down to have the proper clearance. The C clip actually needs to go down inside the small ID of the top cap which makes it a bit fiddly to get the proper depth. The mandrel shaft really should be longer to avoid this issue. That said once in place it works very well.
Actual performance is what I had hoped for. The Lapua brass sizes like butter and the final dimensions are very consistent. Oddly enough I had to use the +8 spacer on my Area 419 shell holder to get the proper shoulder setback - seems like others here are experiencing the opposite and not getting enough setback. Runout on the case neck is .0004 or less. I still need to seat bullets so I'll see what the actual runout is later.
Issues:
1. I ordered a .246 neck / shoulder bushing, but it actually measured .247 which left the neck ID too large to actually make use of the mandrel.
2. I didn't realize I needed an new ER11 6mm collet to use with the mandrel so I had to order it after the fact. This particular sizing die comes with a 5.5 mm collet for the decapping pin which has a smaller diameter than the mandrel by necessity. Just an oversight on my part.
It would be nice if this collet requirement was spelled out a little more clearly on the sizing die page. On the sizing die product page it does not mention needing a new ER11 6mm collet if you want to use a mandrel - it also doesn't mention the collet size it ships with. On the mandrel page it mentions needing a 6mm collet if you don't already have one, but the collet size that ships standard with the sizing die is not mentioned.
I contacted SAC about issue #1 and they sent me a .245 neck / shoulder bushing free of charge which worked perfectly.
While speaking about this issue they also mentioned I would need a smaller C clip for the mandrel so it could be placed further down to have the proper clearance. The C clip actually needs to go down inside the small ID of the top cap which makes it a bit fiddly to get the proper depth. The mandrel shaft really should be longer to avoid this issue. That said once in place it works very well.
Actual performance is what I had hoped for. The Lapua brass sizes like butter and the final dimensions are very consistent. Oddly enough I had to use the +8 spacer on my Area 419 shell holder to get the proper shoulder setback - seems like others here are experiencing the opposite and not getting enough setback. Runout on the case neck is .0004 or less. I still need to seat bullets so I'll see what the actual runout is later.
update: seeing ucsfl05’s picture of the shell holder not contacting the die got me to thinking… i spray alcohol/lanolin lube on the cases in a loading block that comes up and prevents lube from the bottom 1/2” of the case. now, since i’m not using a mandrel or expander, i lubed only the outside of the cases by spraying them in a ziplock bag, then tossing. also let the alcohol completely evaporate using a fan. first two cases bumped .007”! so i took out all 4 shims, turned the die out so it just holds a thin piece of paper at top of stroke. i don’t think the decapping rod was hitting the inside of the case, but i moved it out one notch just to be sure, too. perfect .002” bump on 87 out of 87 cases! could the previous cases have been sticking on the last bit due to insufficient lube? or maybe it was the decapping rod. anyway, it’s now perfect.
If the bottom of the die isn’t making contact with the top of the shell plate holder with brass inside than shaving any amount off the bottom of the die won’t do anything. There has to be something that is bottoming out and preventing contact and it can’t be the shoulder because that would be getting bumped back if it was. I have seen this first hand in the zero press with the sac die and with a bullet central micron precision die. I have no idea what the cause is and sac couldn’t really give an answer. I have the area 419 shell plate kit and with that I’ve been able to get my desired bump on all my brass.
Agree. I haven't seen that issue on mine. I have the die set so the A419 shell holder contacts the the die at full stroke. As a test, anyone having this issue should try removing the decapping pin or mandrel and then size the brass just to take them out of the equation.
@Danrobberg & @HemiPowrd – Can't thank you enough for the response here. Good to know I'm not going crazy in dealing with this issue! Just to confirm, the Area419 shellholder system fills the gap between the top of the ram and the bottom of die, correct? That way (1) you're getting contact between the shellholder and the die to ensure consistent sizing, and most importantly (2) solves the issue of not being able to get enough shoulder bump?
I haven’t sized any cases with the sac die on mine yet but helped a buddy set his up and he has a zero press as well. We had to give it more of a cam over than normal. I chambered two dasher barrrels for him and his son. Both shoot Peterson brass but different lots. One chamber is about 1.5 thousandths longer than the other. We could get it set up to size the slightly longer brass perfectly but no matter what we did (add shims and change all the Redding shell plate holders) we could not get any bump on the slightly shorter brass. So when he switches back and forth he has to screw the die in further to get more cam over and the problem is solved. There is still a slight gap between the shell holder and the base of the die. We haven’t tried the zero shell holders on his set up yet. I’m waiting for my bushing for a 22gt sac die before I size it in mine. But my micron die does the same thing, with no brass the shell holder touches base of die. When brass is inserted there is a small gap. Not sure how to explain that. There is no decapping pin or expander in the micron die I have set up. Maybe it’s something with the zero press? Also just to eliminate another possibility make sure the turret is tightened down with the torque wrench provided.
@Danrobberg – Thanks for the info. Same here. Getting shoulder bump when I do a bit more cam over I can get the bump I want, but it feels like it defeats some of the point of a Zero when you aren't hitting that hard stop. Getting pretty consistent sizing (about 0.001" extreme spread in sizing differences between cases). Or is that kind of sizing difference "great" and I'm just being extra picky here?
