The question of Bolt vs. Semi action?

[Forgetful Coyote]

When a gas gun sets a record/wins in 100/200/300 yard group or score BR.. lemme know. When a gas gun sets a record/wins in 600 or 1000yd BR... lemme know. When a gas gun sets a record/wins in 300, 600, or 1000yd F-TR/F-Open.. lemme know!!!!!!

That said, practical accuracy.... yeah sure a gas gun with the right driver will keep up with the bolt rifles, and may even offer some advantages in some COF's in tactical precision matches like mover stages, etc. Also, the Woody's Desigated Marksman Match looks fun as hell! And one that I really want to eventually shoot in! Anybody here shot that match? If so, how'd you like it? Could you give a breakdown of the match along with rifles you and others were using?

Thanks gentlemen.

 

[TonyTheTiger]

You guys are ruining this thread with meaningful discussion. Let's get the BS going again.

 

[houndog]

I love it when some troll/mall ninja comes on here with their tales of marksmanship. That stuff may fly when they're posting on a call of duty or airsoft forum, but here we have guys who actually shoot real guns. I know what kind of groups I can get benching an accurate bolt action rifle with a 18x scope and match ammo from 300+ yards. And I have friends who shoot, including a guy who's a pretty serious bench rest shooter and someone who shoots service rifle and is a multiple times state champ. I know what kind of groups they can shoot. Apparently this guy can shoot rings around them from a foxhole.

3" groups at 800m with iron sights? Well maybe if he shot 20 2 shot groups and picked the best one.

 

[tt123]

Carlos Hathcock looked up to you? DID YOU REALLY JUST FUCKING SAY THAT?! Hahahahaha.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Maybe Walt is really tall?

 

[ballisticdaddy]

You mean like F-class?!.. every local matches I've ever been to is all steel targets..

I think you and I talked about this earlier.. is you're JP a 308?? Because there are a few guys on here lately that have the new JP LRP-07 in 6.5CM and they have been doing so really impressive shooting at 1000 yards..

Yep I mean like an F class target, at 1,000 yards the x-ring is 5" which is 1/2 MOA....every local match i've been to we score on paper....not just hit or miss on steel targets. I have both 6.5CM and .308 barrels for my AR but honestly they are not nearly as accurate at distance. The link you posted earlier clearly states that the AR-F class rifle must use .223/5.56 ammo and magazine fed which means legally you would not be allowed to shoot 6.5CM in this type of match.

 

[bigjake83]

Yep I mean like an F class target, at 1,000 yards the x-ring is 5" which is 1/2 MOA....every local match i've been to we score on paper....not just hit or miss on steel targets. I have both 6.5CM and .308 barrels for my AR but honestly they are not nearly as accurate at distance. The link you posted earlier clearly states that the AR-F class rifle must use .223/5.56 ammo and magazine fed which means legally you would not be allowed to shoot 6.5CM in this type of match.

I understand what that particular link States. What I am trying to say is there also large caliber AR-F classes being conducted as well..

I'm sure that Bolt Rifles are still the best tool for the job, but I wouldn't be surprised if the playing field between AR's and Bolts evens out in the next few years with all the advancements that are being made in the semi auto community..

Due to the fact no one really builds F-Class style ARs, because frankly that would defeat the whole purpose of a semi-automatic, it would be interesting to do a build with the heavy 26" barrel and see what kind of results I could get..Hmmmmmmm

Les Baer now makes a 6.5 CM in his Custom Match AR's, but unfortunately he's only offering a max barrel length of 20".

 

[elfster1234]

ok, so i did not read all 4 pages, but this is all i got to say...

when i first started the 6x5 challenge on the hide years ago for semi auto and bolt action with real world targets uploaded from people across the globe and now on facebook, i first started the 6x5 challenge with BOTH semi auto and bolt action combined as I was new to the entire thing of "online challenge" and sick of people saying they produce a .5 or less group each time they pull the trigger.... that quickly ended in terms of walking the walk.

anyway, to make a long story short, i quickly had to make a bolt action section, and semi auto section, as the bolt actions would considerably BLOW the semi auto out of the water... after seeing hundreds of 6x5's over the years there is no question that IT IS MUCH EASIER to produce small groups with a bolt action.... AND to my amazement at 300 YARDS OR LESS due to lack of wind past 300yards ( which is not completely true and is more obvious at 100yards ),,, the .223 round consistently destroyed the .308 round (( FOR SEMI AUTO THAT IS )) in terms of accuracy believe it or not = much less recoil impulse = much easier to shoot by far after seeing hundreds of targets from people across the globe and my own shooting experience between the two.... it's past 300yards does .223 really start to battle wind depending on the bullet GRN weight.

in my own experience, and viewing a crazy amount of 6x5 targets, IT IS MUCH MORE DIFFICULT to shoot a semi auto in comparison to a bolt action, without question.... a semi auto, especially large caliber semi auto's such as .308 and above, will bring someone that shoots nothing but bolt action rifles down to their knees and quickly blame the rifle and NOT them self as the problem.. i can not express in words how many times I've seen this when someone that shoots nothing but bolt actions buys a semi auto, and because they are not producing the same size groups with the same ammo = not them.... i'm telling you right now, this is NOT the case... recoil impulse, recoil impulse, recoil impulse, and management of that recoil... and simply the difference of a closed chamber (bolt action) in comparison to a complicated DI or gas operated machine ( the consistency of how your semi auto rifle shoots being that it it is operated with gas with many moving parts which effects velocities of the bullet and the impact of that bullet )... quality of the rifle, does it have a free float handguard blah blah blah.. enough said..

it really is all about intended purpose of the rifle and what you want to do with the rifle.... and don't expect to get behind a semi auto and shoot it like you do your bolt action. it is just not realistic.

 

[Steel head]

I find bolt actions easier to shoot well.
I've shot some great groups and tough shots with AR's but not with the same consistency as bolt action rifles.
When I started shooters longer distances I quickly found out an AR wasn't going to cut it.

 

[bigjake83]

ok, so i did not read all 4 pages, but this is all i got to say...

don't expect to get behind a semi auto and shoot it like you do your bolt action. it is just not realistic.

Now look here pilgrim...... that is the only expectation I have of myself and my builds, soon I will be starting up a 6.5 CM build which I will be doing a full write-up and Range Report on. My Objective to lubricate my BCG with the salty tears of bolt action shooters by pounding the 10 Ring at a 1000yrds like I pound Mama June...

 

[IanHusaberg]

Walt is enjoying a little vacation! Nobodies home.

 

[Bar99]

In my limited experience, the bolt gun is more accurate than the gas gun...

 

[elfster1234]

Now look here pilgrim...... that is the only expectation I have of myself and my builds, soon I will be starting up a 6.5 CM build which I will be doing a full write-up and Range Report on. My Objective to lubricate my BCG with the salty tears of bolt action shooters by pounding the 10 Ring at a 1000yrds like I pound Mama June...

are you single feeding the rifle? hehehe jk

 

[Erud]

I understand what that particular link States. What I am trying to say is there also large caliber AR-F classes being conducted as well..

I'm sure that Bolt Rifles are still the best tool for the job, but I wouldn't be surprised if the playing field between AR's and Bolts evens out in the next few years with all the advancements that are being made in the semi auto community..

Due to the fact no one really builds F-Class style ARs, because frankly that would defeat the whole purpose of a semi-automatic, it would be interesting to do a build with the heavy 26" barrel and see what kind of results I could get..Hmmmmmmm

How will you quantify the results of this experiment?

 

[SRPowah]

I am sure there are ARs and gas shooters out there that can go toe to toe with a bolt gun shooter. No one is denying semi's have made great advancements in recent years and have great potential in the future. While some ARs can definitely get the job done in a precision world of sub MOA, bolt guns will still be the go to for shooting the wings off a fly. I wouldn't be surprised if .5 moa ARs do become closer to the standard, but you simply can't beat the fewer moving parts of a bolt gun unless you turn your semi's gas off.

 

[bigjake83]

How will you quantify the results of this experiment?

Ummmm... Im gonna build a Large Frame AR in 6.5CM that is designed for ELR, then go to a 1000yrd F-Class Range and shoot the fucking thing..??

 

[Erud]

Ummmm... Im gonna build a Large Frame AR in 6.5CM that is designed for ELR, then go to a 1000yrd F-Class Range and shoot the fucking thing..??

Ummmm... Yeah, and then what? Are you going to do any actual comparisons to F-Class rifles, or just say; "Hey, this thing shoots pretty good, I guess AR's really are just as accurate as bolt guns!" It would be interesting to have yourself and a couple of accomplished F-Class shooters shoot both your rifle and theirs and compare the real-world results. You know, like science.

 

[bigjake83]

Ummmm... Yeah, and then what? Are you going to do any actual comparisons to F-Class rifles, or just say; "Hey, this thing shoots pretty good, I guess AR's really are just as accurate as bolt guns!" It would be interesting to have yourself and a couple of accomplished F-Class shooters shoot both your rifle and theirs and compare the real-world results. You know, like science.

"Science" does not work in this equation..

I've already thought of that, and yes I would obviously be shooting with/against accomplished F class shooters, but you can't just have a F-Class Shooter thats been shooting bolt-action rifles his whole life and expect him to even remotely come close to know how to properly drive and AR and at long range..

that's the sole reason why this thread is even going at the pace that it is, because people who can't shoot semi-autos, shoot Bolt Guns! it's that simple...


You are truly over thinking this my good Sir..

 

[Erud]

Yeah, you're probably right. There's no way someone could ever use actual data to reach a conclusion on a topic like this. Best to just trust your own assumptions. Heck, I'm sure you'll outshoot those fancy f-class boys anyways!

 

[IanHusaberg]

Hey Erud and Jake,

One shooter to the next is the problem. Maybe you both don't understand the scientific process to begin with? You have have eliminate all variables possible for a accurate result to occur, including human error.

IanHusabergout

 

[Erud]

Hey Erud and Jake,

One shooter to the next is the problem. Maybe you both don't understand the scientific process to begin with? You have have eliminate all variables possible for a accurate result to occur, including human error.

IanHusabergout

Ian,
Of course there are variables, there are in every experiment. Even so, if you have enough people shoot the same 2 rifles and record the results, you will start to see a trend develop. Most here (Jake and Walt Willis notwithstanding) have a pretty good idea of what that trend will likely be, because we have seen similar trends develop in our own experience. Elfster's mention of the 6x5 thread makes some interesting points, as there is a lot of data there to sort through if someone wanted to. Anyways, I guess I don't really care that much, as I've shot enough of both types to have a good grasp on the limitations of each. I just like arguing.

 

[bigjake83]

Ian,
Of course there are variables, there are in every experiment. Even so, if you have enough people shoot the same 2 rifles and record the results, you will start to see a trend develop. Most here (Jake and Walt Willis notwithstanding) have a pretty good idea of what that trend will likely be, because we have seen similar trends develop in our own experience. Elfster's mention of the 6x5 thread makes some interesting points, as there is a lot of data there to sort through if someone wanted to. Anyways, I guess I don't really care that much, as I've shot enough of both types to have a good grasp on the limitations of each. I just like arguing.

For the sake of argument I will oblige you. First of all let's get back to reality and on TRUE topic of this thread and just throw this term F-class out of the equation.. there is no way in hell that a semi auto could compete with an F-class Rifle using an F-class setup, it's just not going to happen. A top end Tactical style is not going to keep up with a F-Class rig, it's ridiculous the amount of shit that F-class Shooters use to shoot a rifle, $800 Front Rest, 30" Bull Barrels, Anti Barrel Mirage, eye patch.. so on, and so on...

For the bolt rifles the required configuration would reflect a GAP Hospitaller style Rifle, or any tactical precision rifle with a barrel length no greater than 24".

For the AR's there is really no extreme different classifications that you can put a limitation on. I would only say that it would have to stay within the traditional style AR10 like the Gap10, and with a 26" barrel limitation. The reason for the difference in barrel lengths between the two different platforms is because AR Can't push chamber pressures like Bolt gun can, so we have to achieve AR muzzle velocity gains via longer barrels.

The way that I will conduct my test is to get 6 shooter, 3 Bolt rifle shooters and 3 Semi auto shooters. Caliber choice for both platforms will be restricted to what can be possibly shot out of a STANDARD magazine fed AR, .260, 6.5CM, 308... you get a Normal Bipod a Rear Bag that's it! We will shoot to 450, 600, 800, and 1000yrds.

We could also Implement a small bore challenge as well using .223 Bolt Action rifles and .233/.556 AR shooting at a distance of 100,250,450,600.. utilizing the same guidelines as stated above.

what I have stated above is in MY opinion the only way to conduct a fair and impartial test... if anybody has any constructive advice to add into this please feel free to give your feedback..

 

[sandwarrior]

An interesting point made here about closed system (bolt gun) and open system (AR) guns. That while if it were possible to get a multitude of top notch drivers shooting both, we could find accuracy at close range to be roughtly the same. But, when extended, the closed system is not hampered in velocity like the open system. You get the full length of the barrel vs. the length of the gas path in an open system. Consequently, a loss in potential velocity. The relates to time of flight. A bullet in the air longer, will be more susceptible to environmental changes.

That said, the comparison could be handicapped so that equal velocities are achieved. If time of flight equality was attained it could give a more acccurate comparison.

In my previous post, I described a discrepancy between two rifles of relatively close velocity, but different bullet weights and diameters...and very different BC's.

 

[Erud]

For the sake of argument I will oblige you. First of all let's get back to reality and on TRUE topic of this thread and just throw this term F-class out of the equation.. there is no way in hell that a semi auto could compete with an F-class Rifle using an F-class setup, it's just not going to happen. A top end Tactical style is not going to keep up with a F-Class rig, it's ridiculous the amount of shit that F-class Shooters use to shoot a rifle, $800 Front Rest, 30" Bull Barrels, Anti Barrel Mirage, eye patch.. so on, and so on...

For the bolt rifles the required configuration would reflect a GAP Hospitaller style Rifle, or any tactical precision rifle with a barrel length no greater than 24".

For the AR's there is really no extreme different classifications that you can put a limitation on. I would only say that it would have to stay within the traditional style AR10 like the Gap10, and with a 26" barrel limitation. The reason for the difference in barrel lengths between the two different platforms is because AR Can't push chamber pressures like Bolt gun can, so we have to achieve AR muzzle velocity gains via longer barrels.

The way that I will conduct my test is to get 6 shooter, 3 Bolt rifle shooters and 3 Semi auto shooters. Caliber choice for both platforms will be restricted to what can be possibly shot out of a STANDARD magazine fed AR, .260, 6.5CM, 308... you get a Normal Bipod a Rear Bag that's it! We will shoot to 450, 600, 800, and 1000yrds.

We could also Implement a small bore challenge as well using .223 Bolt Action rifles and .233/.556 AR shooting at a distance of 100,250,450,600.. utilizing the same guidelines as stated above.

what I have stated above is in MY opinion the only way to conduct a fair and impartial test... if anybody has any constructive advice to add into this please feel free to give your feedback..

You don't have to oblige me anything. You stated earlier that gas guns can hang with bolt guns at distance from a pure accuracy standpoint, and I tried to tell you that they can't. If you want to find out the truth, build or buy the best AR platform rifle(s) that you can get for 1k accuracy, and compare them to the best bolt guns made for the same purpose. Shoot them the same way. The fact that you feel the need to impose false limitations on the bolts to make the contest more fair to the AR's should give you an idea of where you are headed. If we were to compare rate of fire capabilities of AR's vs bolt guns, would it make sense to require that the AR's could only load one round at a time and not use a magazine, to make it more fair to the bolts?

As for the TRUE topic of this thread, I'm pretty sure that was just an excuse for Walt to tell everyone about the time he killed 18 guys with an M1A and provide another link to his Alien abduction story. We have now elevated the thread into something at least mildly interesting.

 

[bigjake83]

You don't have to oblige me anything. You stated earlier that gas guns can hang with bolt guns at distance from a pure accuracy standpoint, and I tried to tell you that they can't. If you want to find out the truth, build or buy the best AR platform rifle(s) that you can get for 1k accuracy, and compare them to the best bolt guns made for the same purpose.

And that's exactly what I said... I'm just removing the BenchRest Belly Shooting because it not even considered shooting with all that bullshit F-class Shooters use...I'm all for shooting at F-CLass distance, but Put a long range precision Bolt rifle against a long range precision AR.. with bipods and rear bags, and let the results speak for themselves..

And yes the OP is NutFuck Wacko, but the foundation of this thread still stands..

I'm out.. it's obvious Erud is trying to justify the use of a 30lb Rifle and a 26lb $800 front rest to be able to achieve credible accuracy. And like 90% of us on here I come from a military back ground and style of shooting.... It's Snipers Hide not Belly BenchRest central.

 

[Erud]

I'm not trying to justify anything. I don't even shoot F-class, I thought I made that clear earlier. I never have, and I don't expect to start. That particular type of shooting doesn't interest me, but whatever people want to spend their time and money on is not my business.

 

[Bradu]

I think semi autos can be very accurate but how many groups have you seen out of them are comparable to a Tac ops or comparable bolt guns.

 

[bigjake83]

I think semi autos can be very accurate but how many groups have you seen out of them are comparable to a Tac ops or comparable bolt guns.

I've got several Cherry picked groups I can post the will rival Mike's Proof Target that he supplies..And mine are 5rd groups, Mike's are only 3..

 

[Bradu]

I've got several Cherry picked groups I can post the will rival Mike's Proof Target that he supplies..And mine are 5rd groups, Mike's are only 3..

Lol I guess you got me there, it's a good thing you are here to keep Mike honest. It's pretty obvious you aren't going to agree that bolt guns are going to beat the AR's in accuracy every time. As others have said, let us know when they start setting records or dominate the PRS series. We will even let you use a $700 front rest if that's the only thing you think is holding you back.

 

[bigjake83]

Lol I guess you got me there, it's a good thing you are here to keep Mike honest. It's pretty obvious you aren't going to agree that bolt guns are going to beat the AR's in accuracy every time. As others have said, let us know when they start setting records or dominate the PRS series. We will even let you use a $700 front rest if that's the only thing you think is holding you back.

Your childish remarks aren't going to prove anything here and I never laid claim that I'm going to beat or dominate any type of class of Shooting, I'm merely just trying to make my point that accuracy between both guns are a lot closer than people think..

I've come up with some pretty reasonable ways to test this Theory and yet all I get is non constructive criticism.

 

[shane45]

For me this was somewhat settled. Yes a gas gun can be accurate. But there was a high level competitor with a skill level I could only dream of that ran a semi for a season. From what I recall he still did very well. But his commentary on how much harder it was to achieve these results was reported as extreme from what I recall and that he would never do it again. So in my view it really may not matter how close the mechanical accuracy is. If its that much harder to drive a gas gun for a season of tactical rifle competition it wont matter if the rifle is just as accurate if the shooter is not likely to be just as accurate. Sort of like driving a new Corvette around the track with the computer off. The car is technically capable of the same speed, the driver is not.

 

[ttown]

Hi everyone I'm new to this forum and I'm just starting to get my feet wet in the long range shooting sport. That being said I was wondering the accuracy potential of say a M1A or an M1 Garand that has been gone through for accuracy ? I realize that a bolt gun will more than likely be easier to get to the 1000 yd level but I fell in love with the M1A years ago and would really like to try it out.

 

[Erud]

You can have a lot of fun at 1000 with either one of those rifles as long as you keep your expectations realistic.

 

[pmclaine]

Hi everyone I'm new to this forum and I'm just starting to get my feet wet in the long range shooting sport. That being said I was wondering the accuracy potential of say a M1A or an M1 Garand that has been gone through for accuracy ? I realize that a bolt gun will more than likely be easier to get to the 1000 yd level but I fell in love with the M1A years ago and would really like to try it out.

When accepted for service it was expected those rifles be a 4 MOA gun. More often than not they were better than 3 MOA. With no work if you have a 2 MOA M14 or Garand that would be a great gun. You will work to create a 1.5 or better gun and you will need great skills to access the potential.

Im sure there is an official 1000 yard target but pulling numbers out of my ass, Id think if you were shooting at something with a 10 inch Xring, 20-25 inch 10 ring, 30-36 inch 9 ring and a 40 inch 8 ring you will have an appropriately sized target to judge your skills and the capabilities of the rifle. Google will tell you what the exact specs are. I wouldn't be surprised if it is the 5-600 yard target with another ring added to the black.

Its not F Class unless "F" stands for FUN.

The M1A will typically shoot better than the Garand but each rifle is different. Both are great rifles.... [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i1005.photobucket.com\/albums\/af178\/pmclaine\/P9126499_zps27de05rv.jpg"}[/IMG2]

 

[ballisticdaddy]

When accepted for service it was expected those rifles be a 4 MOA gun. More often than not they were better than 3 MOA. With no work if you have a 2 MOA M14 or Garand that would be a great gun. You will work to create a 1.5 or better gun and you will need great skills to access the potential.

Im sure there is an official 1000 yard target but pulling numbers out of my ass, Id think if you were shooting at something with a 10 inch Xring, 20-25 inch 10 ring, 30-36 inch 9 ring and a 40 inch 8 ring you will have an appropriately sized target to judge your skills and the capabilities of the rifle. Google will tell you what the exact specs are. I wouldn't be surprised if it is the 5-600 yard target with another ring added to the black.

Its not F Class unless "F" stands for FUN.

The M1A will typically shoot better than the Garand but each rifle is different. Both are great rifles.... [IMG2=JSON]{"data-align":"none","data-size":"full","src":"http:\/\/i1005.photobucket.com\/albums\/af178\/pmclaine\/P9126499_zps27de05rv.jpg"}[/IMG2]

But on an f-class 1,000 yards target the x-ring is 5" which is closer to 1/2 MOA

 

[pmclaine]

But on an f-class 1,000 yards target the x-ring is 5" which is closer to 1/2 MOA

But that's F class. Service rifle is a different animal.

Ill stop being lazy and break out the Googlefu and than come back.

 

[pmclaine]

Im back....

4.7 800, 900, and 1000 Yard Target

(a) NRA No. LR -

Aiming Black (inches) Rings in White (inches)

X ring . . . . . . . 10.00

10 ring . . . . . . . 20.00

9 ring . . . . . . . . 30.00

8 ring . . . . . . . . 44.00

7 ring . . . . . . . . . . 60.00

6 area . . . 72x72 square

 

[ballisticdaddy]

Im back....

4.7 800, 900, and 1000 Yard Target

(a) NRA No. LR -

Aiming Black (inches) Rings in White (inches)

X ring . . . . . . . 10.00

10 ring . . . . . . . 20.00

9 ring . . . . . . . . 30.00

8 ring . . . . . . . . 44.00

7 ring . . . . . . . . . . 60.00

6 area . . . 72x72 square

You are correct and the Palma shooters also use the same target....but thats not an f-class target sir! And I didn't need to utilize the Googlefu as we have the same targets in our club matches.

 

[pmclaine]

You are correct and the Palma shooters also use the same target....but thats not an f-class target sir! And I didn't need to utilize the Googlefu as we have the same targets in our club matches.

Im not tracking you. Right in my post I say that it is not F class "Unless F stands for Fun". Are we misunderstanding each other?

Service rifle means a rifle that has been used in the armed services. I don't care if you add a scope to it still will not be an F class rifle. F class rifles are a totally different animal with much tighter capabilities which can be held to a much smaller target standard.

I think we agree but you wont let me agree.

 

[bigjake83]

Im not tracking you. Right in my post I say that it is not F class "Unless F stands for Fun". Are we misunderstanding each other?

Service rifle means a rifle that has been used in the armed services. I don't care if you add a scope to it still will not be an F class rifle. F class rifles are a totally different animal with much tighter capabilities which can be held to a much smaller target standard.

I think we agree but you wont let me agree.

I don't think BallisticDaddy's reading comprehension is up to Snuff this week.. He's under the impression you told him to use his Googlefu..... I disliked his comment hoping the lightbulb would turn on, and he would actually properly read what you wrote, but still nothing but Darkness...lol

 

[pmclaine]

I don't think BallisticDaddy's reading comprehension is up to Snuff this week.. He's under the impression you told him to use his Googlefu..... I disliked his comment hoping the lightbulb would turn on, and he would actually properly read what you wrote, but still nothing but Darkness...lol

Thank you for affirming my belief there was a comprehension issue.

I had hoped I didn't offend in someway and I have no hard feelings about a misunderstanding.

I don't use the Googlefu point as a "go chase your ass" comment like is often done. If I know something Ill post it.

I only mentioned Googlefu because I was too lazy to look up the dimensions on my own.

 

[Reaper130]

IF you are willing to spend the money, the gap in functionality and accuracy is basically non-existent these days when it comes to this argument IMHO. 10+ years ago you'd have gotten a lot different responses but in that time frame there are some very serious builders who can put sub half MOA down the tube, every time, with the right person behind the trigger.

 

[jevan126]

I have 2 JP Rifles that are as accurate as a gas gun gets but after shooting my new Barrett MRAD I now am convinced that while today's AR's are super accurate they still don't measure up to a Bolt Gun @ long distances.

 

[walt willis]

First remove the crap from your ears fella, then you may better understand how stupid you sound! I was stationed in a combat ready unit in Germany and they were looking for replacements for the army's long range shooting team. Just because you can not shoot that well you don't need to give grief to the folks that can?

It was in Germany 1969 when they were looking for the best shooters to replace the ones going home.