The question of Bolt vs. Semi action?

[walt willis]

Many times people ask or state that one is the better choice and I always answer that it depends! There are several reasons I would chose a Semi over a bolt action rifle. The cheek weld will allow you to reacquire faster and more accurately then a bolt action rifle during multiples or misses. Oh Lord forgive me for a missed shot. The other reason I prefer a Semi would be for the times all hell brakes loose and rush hour begins towards my hide. At 800 meters I was able to hit all shots inside a baseball group using a N/M M-14 rifle and match ammo from a foxhole. Remember that was without a scope. Could I have done better using a bolt action rifle? Who cares as the group was well within the need parameters of a kill shot! The other point may be overlooked that a scoped rifle is more likely to get damaged then your iron sighted rifle. It may also help to travel light and fast with less weight of hardware so you can carry more toilet paper? So sorry as I am still a joker after all these years!

 

[Greg Langelius *]

I think that the basic Stoner/AR action gives nothing away to the bolt action where accuracy is concerned, the only issue is that so few AR's are configured for the precision/varmint application. With proper barrels and ergonomics, it's not apples and oranges anymore.

I've been shooting a Stag Model 6 Super Varminter .223 for several years now, and I consider it my most accurate factory rifle. The only issue has been using it on bags with the original A2 stock. But I just installed the Luth MBA-1 stock, and I now have the adjustable LOP and Cheek Rest height. It perfects the package.

With (the same, mind you) handload, it shoots indistinguishably (at the target) from the Savage 11VT.

I have one AR, but that includes 3 Uppers.

Number two is a CMMG 16 Bull WASP. I consider this one to be the Ultimate Urban Sniper rifle. It carries a (Bushnell) AR Optics 3-12x40 BDC scope that pairs seamlessly with the Federal Fusion MSR Fusion 62gr Bonded load, angle BUIS added. I compare this to my Mossberg MVP Predator .223 which uses the same magazines, load, and scope. (approximate equivalent) Note, the linked BUIS is not high quality, but adequate for those "...and now we all go to Hell..." situations. Their overarching value is that they allow the gun to fit in a case without all sorts of Awhecks. Those fixed angled BUIS are BULKY!!!

Number three is a home brewed Upper using the Stag Crowned 16" 5.56 M4 barrel, and a Vortex SPARC II Optic, angle BUIS added. Also right on with the Fed MSR Fusion, or any of the 55gr FMJ to M-855 loads. This is a Run'in Gun, comparable to about any lightweight sporter .223; but accurate, yes it's accurate. I got lucky with my first build effort.

Greg

 

[Wyzrd]

I don't think ones better than the other. Different tools for different jobs. I have dedicated AR's for precision shooting, ones for defense/SHTF, hunting, etc. My bolt rifles are just range and accuracy shooting, and hunting. I've always enjoyed gas guns and feel that I can run them halfway decent. I've also gotten some amazing accuracy out of both bolts and gassers. Instead of choosing one over the other, I say just get both!

 

[just browsing]

Gassers are a little more difficult to shoot well. I wouldn't necessarily say that you 'give up' anything, but bolts are certainly a little more forgiving in my experience.

There's also the argument of losing velocity with the gas system on an AR-style platform, but I've never noticed a prominent difference in performance.

Shoot what you're comfortable with, that's ultimately what it comes down to.

 

[digitalshooter]

Get both and have fun I say.

 

[AMP!]

It was always ahard pick for me, as I just love the feel and working a good bolt action rifle. When it comes down to it though, I take the semi auto. So I finally picked up an AR-10 this year in .308 and I've absolutely loved it so far.

Sure it may not be as quiet with the action cycling and it's a little harder to find the brass, but man is it fun to shoot. I enjoy being behind an AR more, so that's what I go with. After all, that's why I shoot. It's just fun and I love it. Next to fitness, handguns and ARs are my passion.

I honestly have never shot a semi auto as accurately as I have several bolt actions. Had close to half MOA consistently with bolt actions, and haven't been able to do that with an AR platform yet, but I think that is all me. I need practice, and don't believe it's the rifle at all.

 

[pmclaine]

Is this VJJ or some similar LOKI like figure fucking with us as a way to reintroduce himself.......

 

[bogeybrown]

Is this VJJ or some similar LOKI like figure fucking with us as a way to reintroduce himself.......

No sir, VJJ has been summoned and has returned under his real identity. This is something else entirely, I was thinking maybe Gecko45 or Eddie from Tactical Rifles had a new user name.

 

[bogeybrown]

Many times people ask or state that one is the better choice and I always answer that it depends! There are several reasons I would chose a Semi over a bolt action rifle. The cheek weld will allow you to reacquire faster and more accurately then a bolt action rifle during multiples or misses. Oh Lord forgive me for a missed shot. The other reason I prefer a Semi would be for the times all hell brakes loose and rush hour begins towards my hide. At 800 meters I was able to hit all shots inside a baseball group using a N/M M-14 rifle and match ammo from a foxhole. Remember that was without a scope. Could I have done better using a bolt action rifle? Who cares as the group was well within the need parameters of a kill shot! The other point may be overlooked that a scoped rifle is more likely to get damaged then your iron sighted rifle. It may also help to travel light and fast with less weight of hardware so you can carry more toilet paper? So sorry as I am still a joker after all these years!

Are you saying that:
you shot a 3" group (a baseball is just under 3") from an M1A at 800m?
With open sights?
In a combat situation?
With multiple hostiles converging on your hide?

 

[pmclaine]

Had to have had a lot of TRW parts and an LMR barrel. Yeah, that would get you there.

 

[MunsonT45]

Gas guns are fun and can be dang near as accurate, but, as stated, I think it's harder to shoot accurately

 

[Forgetful Coyote]

Yall dont remember this dude? Hes the UFO abductee..

 

[bogeybrown]

Yall dont remember this dude? Hes the UFO abductee..

I didn't remember him initially because he was only around for a short while before the move, but once I saw one of his posts I looked at his other installments of bullshit mall ninja lecture series posts and remembered.

Im still waiting for answers to my above questions regarding his zombie apocolypse shootout with an M1A

 

[JSTARSZ]

I actually thought this was going to be a serious conversation - guess not.

 

[sandwarrior]

Are you saying that:
you shot a 3" group (a baseball is just under 3") from an M1A at 800m?
With open sights?
In a combat situation?
With multiple hostiles converging on your hide?

I think he means "in the strike zone". So, if it's National League pitcher or American league pitcher it could be different. Then again, it depends on who's up at the plate....sometimes it's just "different"

 

[bogeybrown]

Slightly more plausible, but I still want to hear the details of this shooting feat. Check out his other posts. They're all in the theme of a lecture series from someone purporting big BTDT creds, but he never answers questions other than to say he's too smart to answer questions and simply links the YouTube video of his "life's story" or whatever.
Some of his posts are borderline red flag type shit to me.

 

[pmclaine]

I liked the thread which amounted to basically tell me about the "sensitive tactics and gear you use".

I sense another poster had divined a China based IP address.

 

[Statusquo]

His grammar is similar to some of my coworkers from China.

 

[bogeybrown]

Yep, and much more delusional lunatic prepper than shooting enthusiast.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Oh fuck.....here we go.


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[bigjake83]

I'll weigh in on this to get us back on topic. Yes it is true semi-autos are just as accurate as a good Precision Bolt Action Rifle, but the problem with the semi-auto is that they are machines and have many variables that can cause Flyers and inconsistent accuracy while bolt guns are more consistently accurate and generally when you get a flyer from a bolt gun I would say with the utmost certainty it is 100% your fault.

The world of semi Autos in the past 10 years has absolutely exploded and if anybody buys a name brand complete AR it's probably because they're partial to that brand otherwise there is absolutely no reason to spend that much money when you can build a rifle as accurate as any manufacturer is producing today.

Once people get past the intimidation of actually building a firearm by themselves and discover with some basic research that you can build yourself a fine rifle at a fraction of the cost it's really going to play hell with the sales of some really good companies.

me personally I prefer semi-autos no matter what the caliber over bolt action rifles. One Trend that I have recently noticed is that there seems to be a lot of fanboys that prefer to have whatever the military is currently using, but a lot of them fail to realize that anything that is going to stand up to the usage that a standard issue military rifle is going to endure isn't going to be a absolute precision rifle you can't have it both ways. KAC really hit the nail on the head when it came to the call of a military grade rifle that is capable of shooting 1 MOA all day long no matter what the environment, why the military has switched over to the HK fuck if I know..

 

[bogeybrown]

Oh fuck.....here we go.


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You know you missed the old Hide

 

[walt willis]

Are you saying that:
you shot a 3" group (a baseball is just under 3") from an M1A at 800m?
With open sights?
In a combat situation?
With multiple hostiles converging on your hide?

First remove the crap from your ears fella, then you may better understand how stupid you sound! I was stationed in a combat ready unit in Germany and they were looking for replacements for the army's long range shooting team. Just because you can not shoot that well you don't need to give grief to the folks that can?

 

[walt willis]

Is this VJJ or some similar LOKI like figure fucking with us as a way to reintroduce himself.......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dbR2JZmlWo

 

[walt willis]

The problem with some of the old war dogs may be that there is no cure for stupid. For some reason they tend to make fun of things that they don't understand. Then they think that they are cool? Go figure! I also find it odd that when I was back east I had friends like Carlos Hathcock that look up to me and here on this forum I find so many stupid people that like to make fun of me? Go figure! That tells me much about the people on this forum. The only cure for stupid still seems to be anthrax? So... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dbR2JZmlWo

 

[MtnCreek]

LSD is a hell of a drug.

 

[bogeybrown]

First remove the crap from your ears fella, then you may better understand how stupid you sound! I was stationed in a combat ready unit in Germany and they were looking for replacements for the army's long range shooting team. Just because you can not shoot that well you don't need to give grief to the folks that can?

Well shit, I was going to apologize for assuming you were going to reply with the STFU song again, as I alluded to in the "high state of warfare" thread. You actually (kind of) responded but didn't answer my questions.
But before I could apologize you spout some ridiculous bullshit about being Gunny Hathcock's hero and drop the STFU song again.

so here's my follow up question/s, fella:
under what circumstances/course of fire were you shooting this group at 800m
was the group the size of a baseball or the size of a batter's strike zone as someone else interpreted?

I know im just a dumbass with crap in my ears, but here's my issue, ace:
The only time a "group" would be recorded on a KD course of fire is during rapid fire. Since the USMC KD course (which both CMP and NRA closely mirror) doesn't call for scored rapid fire beyond 300yds/m I'm curious on how this group was shot. Incidentally, if all rapid fire shots are max scoring hits, then a "possible" is awarded and marked with a single red spotter, vs individual white and black spotters as appropriate.

If if you were shooting slow fire at 800m, then each shot would be marked with a spotter disc, then pasted over after the subsequent shot. Assuming you didn't simply start banging away at 800, and fired some sort of course of record extending to 800m, then there should've been way too many holes in the target from closer ranges to say what your "group" was at 800. Not that ANY mil butts/pits even bother to document the size of a group or convey that info to a shooter on the line.

So pretty please, with sugar on top, enlighten me on what I'm missing, because your original post referred to "rush hour heading toward your hide" of some such, as well as making kill shots from your fox hole. I distantly remember the Army having some fighting hole shooting for their pop up targets or something, but what the hell course were you shooting at 800m, for a group, from a foxhole?

ETA: looking forward to the YouTube response

 

[ballisticdaddy]

This thread is kinda funny, if most current semi-auto rifles are just as good as bolt rifles why don't they use them for f-class, benchrest or ELR? When was the last time you saw a record being broken using any type of AR platform rifle? I have two JP built rifles, one small frame and one large frame and they are damn accurate but not as accurate as my bolt guns past 600 yards.

 

[bogeybrown]

This thread is kinda funny, if most current semi-auto rifles are just as good as bolt rifles why don't they use them for f-class, benchrest or ELR? When was the last time you saw a record being broken using any type of AR platform rifle? I have two JP built rifles, one small frame and one large frame and they are damn accurate but not as accurate as my bolt guns past 600 yards.

He wasn't actually asking a question, he was spreading his wisdom before us and allowing us to discuss his brilliance. Check his other posts and you'll see the pattern. The only true questions he's asked involve the evasion of thermal sensors on drones so he can evade the government on his way from home to his hide.

 

[Darkside-Six]

Carlos Hathcock looked up to you? DID YOU REALLY JUST FUCKING SAY THAT?! Hahahahaha.


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[bogeybrown]

Carlos Hathcock looked up to you? DID YOU REALLY JUST FUCKING SAY THAT?! Hahahahaha.

Apparently so much so, that "Carlos" offered to give him his Unertl :
http://www.snipershide.com/shooting...0-m1903a1-w-telescope-sighting-unertl-8x-usmc

 

[bigjake83]

This thread is kinda funny, if most current semi-auto rifles are just as good as bolt rifles why don't they use them for f-class, benchrest or ELR? When was the last time you saw a record being broken using any type of AR platform rifle? I have two JP built rifles, one small frame and one large frame and they are damn accurate but not as accurate as my bolt guns past 600 yards.

They do use them in ELR, and Bench Rest..... Oh and here is a link for the AR-F class Info..

http://www.chuckhawks.com/f-AR15_rifle.htm

 

[sandwarrior]

They do use them in ELR, and Bench Rest..... Oh and here is a link for the AR-F class Info..

http://www.chuckhawks.com/f-AR15_rifle.htm

Interesting. I do see they keep them in their own class. And it's limited to 600 yds. I've yet to find an AR that will keep up with a bolt gun at 1k though.

All in all, as I see it, it's a good thing. Something new that brings new shooters into the sport. And, in general, that gun world that they might not have joined in on otherwise.

 

[bigjake83]

Interesting. I do see they keep them in their own class. And it's limited to 600 yds. I've yet to find an AR that will keep up with a bolt gun at 1k though.

All in all, as I see it, it's a good thing. Something new that brings new shooters into the sport. And, in general, that gun world that they might not have joined in on otherwise.

I've competed in my local matches out to a G with no issue , using a Les Bear 24" 6.5 Grendel, and my Fat Rat. so I would think the 6.5CM would accomplish that with no issue..

 

[sandwarrior]

I've competed in my local matches out to a G with no issue , using a Les Bear 24" 6.5 Grendel, and my Fat Rat. so I would think the 6.5CM would accomplish that with no issue..

No question a 6.5 Creed will do it. How well are they holding up against really good shooters with bolt guns? I guess score shooting would be the way to compare. I've taken my 6.5G to 1400. I didn't have my 6.5 Creed yet, I could not hold the same accuracy with my 6.5G as I did with my 7mm-08 at 1200.

 

[Erud]

I've competed in my local matches out to a G with no issue , using a Les Bear 24" 6.5 Grendel, and my Fat Rat. so I would think the 6.5CM would accomplish that with no issue..

Sure, but did you win? What kind of matches?

 

[bigjake83]

Sure, but did you win? What kind of matches?

Open LRP rifle matches, and no I did not win, but not because of my of my equipment it was just because I was new..

 

[Erud]

What is open LRP? Long Range Prone? Like NRA matches?

 

[bigjake83]

What is open LRP? Long Range Prone? Like NRA matches?

I guess..They called it Long Range Precision and you could use and caliber you wanted, we would all lay prone, and the line coach will call out targets at unknown distances.. with a 200 yard zero the Grendel and the fat rat had no issue making hits out to 500-600, but since I didn't have any Dope past that I was just guessing... This was when I first started and figured out why just about everyone had these data cards taped to their rifles..lol

But anyway there is tons of this kind info online just do some basic searching and you will see more and more people are using Semi's right along side with bolt rifles..

 

[ballisticdaddy]

I've competed in my local matches out to a G with no issue , using a Les Bear 24" 6.5 Grendel, and my Fat Rat. so I would think the 6.5CM would accomplish that with no issue..

I have a JP built large frame AR that I have also shot out to 1k with success but would by no means keep up with my bolt guns as far as accuracy. There is a big difference between banging steel and scoring X's at 1k especially in competition.

 

[bigjake83]

I have a JP built large frame AR that I have also shot out to 1k with success but would by no means keep up with my bolt guns as far as accuracy. There is a big difference between banging steel and scoring X's at 1k especially in competition.

You mean like F-class?!.. every local matches I've ever been to is all steel targets..

I think you and I talked about this earlier.. is you're JP a 308?? Because there are a few guys on here lately that have the new JP LRP-07 in 6.5CM and they have been doing so really impressive shooting at 1000 yards..

 

[Erud]

I guess..They called it Long Range Precision and you could use and caliber you wanted, we would all lay prone, and the line coach will call out targets at unknown distances.. with a 200 yard zero the Grendel and the fat rat had no issue making hits out to 500-600, but since I didn't have any Dope past that I was just guessing... This was when I first started and figured out why just about everyone had these data cards taped to their rifles..lol

But anyway there is tons of this kind info online just do some basic searching and you will see more and more people are using Semi's right along side with bolt rifles..

Ok, I'll buy that. For hit/miss type steel matches a semi can work fine, but as mentioned above, they really can't hang with the bolts in matches shooting for score - f-class, conventional prone, etc.

 

[bigjake83]

Ok, I'll buy that. For hit/miss type steel matches a semi can work fine, but as mentioned above, they really can't hang with the bolts in matches shooting for score - f-class, conventional prone, etc.

That's actually not correct at all, take a look at the link I posted on Ballistics post on page 2, they have ARF-class events now in .223 and Large Caliber.... Like I said earlier do some research and you shall see...

Are you around southern Idaho?? I have friends here who have private 1000yrd Ranges when the weather clears bring your bolt rifles along and I'd be happy to show you how effective a Quality Large frame AR can be.

 

[Erud]

That's actually not correct at all, take a look at the link I posted on Ballistics post on page 2, they have ARF-class events now in .223 and Large Caliber.... Like I said earlier do some research and you shall see...

Are you around southern Idaho?? I have friends here who have private 1000yrd Ranges when the weather clears bring your bolt rifles along and I'd be happy to show you how effective a Quality Large frame AR can be.

You are sort of making my point for me. The reason that there are AR-specific F-Class events is because the gas guns just aren't competitive against bolt guns in an open class, so people really don't shoot them for that. Having an AR-specific class or event lets them compete against similar gas guns on a more level playing field. There's nothing wrong with gas guns, and they can be extremely accurate, it's just a different tool for a slightly different job. I have a bunch of them and I've enjoyed them immensely. I come from an NRA Highpower type of competitive background - with sling and iron sights. I made High Master in Highpower OTC (the traditional 3-position shooting) and also in Mid Range Prone shooting an AR chambered in 6mm AR Turbo 40. I won lots of matches, including several state and regional championships in HP with that setup, and shot over 10,000 rounds of that cartridge in competition. In contrast, while shooting Mid Range Prone with it, while it was good enough to make the High Master cut (>98.5%), it was only good enough to win exactly ZERO matches. A few attempts at LR prone with that setup quickly led me to a bolt gun for that game. There are people that shoot AR's (large and small) for this type of match, and while they can have a lot of fun doing so, they don't win. And this is on the sling target, which is double the size of the F-Class target. I don't shoot any f-class, but I shoot a lot of Mid-Range and Long Range prone matches, which are shot with sling and F-Class shooters shooting together. I can tell you that the only people that show up to shoot f-class with gas guns are the new guys. Typically, they either end up acquiring a bolt gun if they decide to stick with the sport, or they stop coming to matches after a few dissappointing tries. Of course there are of a few that just like shooting their gas guns and don't care if they win or not, and that is just great also.

It sounds like your experience is more with steel-type matches. That's cool, it's just not the same type of shooting contest. While I don't have any plans to get to Idaho anytime soon, I'd extend the same invitation to you if you happen to be in the MN/WI part of the country this summer. I have 23 days of Long Range prone matches and 13 days of Mid Range prone on my shooting schedule for 2017, along with another 9 days of smallbore prone if you find yourself in the neighborhood and want to try your hand with your AR. I'll be shooting a match here just about every weekend from April through the end of September.

Best,
Erik

 

[bigjake83]

Sounds good.....

 

[IanHusaberg]

Man Walt,

Your sniper as all fuck, where do i sign up to be your apprentice? Have you killed three people with a pencil? Did you escape from AR15.com?

Damn

 

[bigjake83]

Man Walt,

Your sniper as all fuck, where do i sign up to be your apprentice? Have you killed three people with a pencil? Did you escape from AR15.com?

Damn

Lol......

 

[IanHusaberg]

All joking aside. Check out his other threads? Vague. No real questions posed. Poser? Troll or Trolling????????? I personally think sharks with fricking' laser beams are the most accurate. Hands down, no questions asked.

 

[Veer_G]

Man Walt,

Your sniper as all fuck, where do i sign up to be your apprentice? Have you killed three people with a pencil? Did you escape from AR15.com?

Damn

Somebody find Marduk. We need to induct this guy into OAF like but NOW!

 

[IanHusaberg]

He's just making it to easy for me to rack up some posts and laughs at the same time. My face hurts!!