The Tank is dead...Long Live the Tank!

DocRDS

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Nice piece on the evolution of the tank and the tit for tat of shoulder launched missles/drones along with tactics.



Trying to decouple this from that OTHER thread in which <GENERIC BOOGYMAN #1> is using <GENERIC BAD GUY GROUP #2> to eliminate <GENERIC BOOGYMAN #3> who is is secretly supporting <GENERIC BAD GUY GROUP #4>
 
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Russian tanks with 1970's armor technology made by slave labor and manned by untrained conscripts confused as to why they are being given live ammo for a training exercise is dead.

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Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the US MBTs have active protection missile systems that scan the surrounding sky without even needing the crew to pay attention to it, and they will take out anything like a Javelin long before it reaches the tank?

I don't think tanks are remotely near "dead". It is HOW they are deployed that matters. The future of warfare will all be SMART. That means if you are still riding around in a dumb metal box, you are gonna get murked very quickly. If you make your formerly dumb metal box into a smart metal box, with C-RAM capabilities against anything that might be thrown at it, the other heavy weapons on your metal box will crush the opposition's assets.

Military sci-fi has already explained to us that instead of becoming "dead", tanks in future warfare will evolve to take on even more expanded roles. When fuel and energy sources advance to a certain point, there WILL be attempts to make tanks into quadpedal or centipede walkers, possibly with hover, underwater, and even space capabilities, functioning as drop and launch shuttles that can unfold right upon reentry and deploy into battle...
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the US MBTs have active protection missile systems that scan the surrounding sky without even needing the crew to pay attention to it, and they will take out anything like a Javelin long before it reaches the tank
I don’t believe they have any self aware system that prevents middle strikes. The have reactive armor which is passive and “dumb”. I’ve been in/on an M1ASEP in a combat environment and never seen a system like that
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the US MBTs have active protection missile systems that scan the surrounding sky without even needing the crew to pay attention to it, and they will take out anything like a Javelin long before it reaches the tank?

I'm not sure if the tanks have it yet but there are other systems that do. JLTVs are getting a version of it now. Israeli tanks have had it for a while. I would guess the tanks either have it or are getting it soon.

EDIT: rooster above answered while I was typing.
 
What Ukraine shows so far is the solidification that you need to own the air, and you need high altitude precision weapons.

Russia has neither and it’s costing.

Also we need to think slightly differently. For the entire WOT we were confronting a poorly trained poorly armed force (not disrespecting anyone so do t take it that way).

If Iraq was Moscow/near-peer weapons there would be scores more dead on the ground. And armor littered everywhere.

If the Iraqi had javelins…it would have been a totally different story when the first armor column went into Baghdad. And even then our armor was taking a beating compared to gulf war 1.

We /the west havnt seen real war in 60 years. Not owning the air and same generation ground weapons is Korean War. Lots of guys had to die.

I was just talking with someone guessing what lessons we are learning.
 
There is no one king of battle, there is only victory to the one who can fully implement combined arms and logistics. No facet of the battlefield is dead while all together, but one facet by itself will always fail.
Couldn’t agree more. Plenty of in-service shit talking, but all the little pieces make it work. Can it be done without some, sure, is it more effective and lethal all together, hell yes.
 
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@Blue Sky Country

So apparently it is in the works, but not standardized yet. Supposed to be next year
https://breakingdefense.com/2021/02...e-protection-for-abrams-bradley-ampv-stryker/


Yep, MAPS was exactly what I was thinking of. I remembered a commenter on YouTube going into extensive detail about it on a video tour of a tank museum. Extremely futuristic and downright hardcore stuff right there. Successful deployment of this system will basically turn each MBT into a mobile operations base.

@Redmanss : The modern battlefield is perhaps 90% logistics and support operations now. A pallet being delayed on the road between a warehouse and an airstrip because of a single error on the destination manifest in a base country will affect the outcome of an operation in a country hundreds of miles away.
 
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We aren’t allowed to do that anymore until we are losing…that’s the fucking problem
Reminds me of a funny story on how we’re not allowed to do that. First time I ever seen a 2 star general get told to “fuck off, and to get your idling birds off my airstrip we’re busy” hahhahahahha
 
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There is no one king of battle, there is only victory to the one who can fully implement combined arms and logistics. No facet of the battlefield is dead while all together, but one facet by itself will always fail.
This ^^^^

It's the real reason the Russians are getting their asses kicked. Hell, half the conscripts don't even speak Russian. Makes command and control (crucial to combined arms) damned near impossible....

Never mind violence of action and decentralized control for an agile, lethal shock force, capable of crushing the enemy's will to fight.
 
Nah, you guys are still thinking of conventional weapons. Just imagine aiming an ultra high intensity energy weapon and heating up the inside of a tank (Or any other vehicle) to 1000 degrees. You dont need to blow up things anymore.
We aren’t there yet…still trying though.

They finally have a ship with a laser that’s good for drones etc.

To cook armor fast enough that it can’t scoot behind so cover…that’s a looooong way away.
 
Nah, you guys are still thinking of conventional weapons. Just imagine aiming an ultra high intensity energy weapon and heating up the inside of a tank (Or any other vehicle) to 1000 degrees. You dont need to blow up things anymore.
In that case the tank just activates its shields and engages its cloaking device.
 
We aren’t there yet…still trying though.

They finally have a ship with a laser that’s good for drones etc.

To cook armor fast enough that it can’t scoot behind so cover…that’s a looooong way away.
That stuff has been our for quite some time. But it doesnt have to be a traditional laser. Id be willing to bet we have technology already that will make the traditional laser look like a flint lock
 
Nah, you guys are still thinking of conventional weapons. Just imagine aiming an ultra high intensity energy weapon and heating up the inside of a tank (Or any other vehicle) to 1000 degrees. You dont need to blow up things anymore.
I am pretty sure, if you heat a tank up to 1000 degrees "something" inside the tank is going to blow up.
 
The only Commandant that wasn’t planning, training and equipping to fight the previous war was Al Gray.
Again...This^^^

Gray was probably the most forward looking Commandant the Corps has had in years. And he pissed off a lot of folks doing it (I give you MEU "SOC" quals as an example).
 
Tanks do not exist in a vacuum, there are active protection systems being used like Trophy and Iron Fist as well as all the electronic wizardry a first world nation can bring to the battlefield. There is also ongoing development of armour suites, like everything else it's a constant battle between new offensive systems and new defensive counter systems.

The only thing the Russians are proving is that you really don't want to fight like them, pretty much every facet of their armed forces are failing.
 
Actually nice to see some decent commentary, discussion as there is a lot of "tanks are useless" going around. I did like that the article weighed the cat and mouse game between ATGM and Defense. Combined arms is still a thing. Marines getting rid of MBT does have me concerned and drones are a new twist.

As far as energy weapons--I still think we have a ways to go, but its definitely on the horizon--not so much for penetration but secondary effects a la microwaves (heat).
 
There is no one king of battle, there is only victory to the one who can fully implement combined arms and logistics. No facet of the battlefield is dead while all together, but one facet by itself will always fail.
If not already , that should be a quote . That is some straight up modern day Sun Tzu .
 
In the end, we have to separate the skewed picture the propaganda machine is presenting vs reality and also any illusions that the western military would fare much better when faced with an opponent that is supplied at least with stuff Ukraine got .

Hard kill APS systems are only being introduced in western tanks now and very few are actually fielded on tanks and almost none on other armor, second thing is most fielded systems do not provide much protection against Javelin as they were designed to deal old fashioned RPGs and beam riders like TOW, Kornet. Most of the up armoring is geared towards RPGs and not much protection is given for top attack threats.

Had a western military faced such a flood of Javelins,NLAWs, Stingers,Switchblades, drones etc, and adversaries that are trained and supplied with all the intel western military and civilian assets can generate we would be looking at much the same picture burned up wrecks all over the place.

Looking all the massive shift toward wheeled armor in past two decades, you would have fields of Ukraine littered with stuck armor, you see Russian gear particularly wheeled vehicles stuck in the mud and all of their gear is far more tailored to those conditions with much lower ground pressure, western 8x8 that are edging towards 30tons would be confined to roads 99,98% of the time.

But in spite of all the threats it faces tank is still king of the battle field, for all the armor losses tanks still suffer least of all the armored vehicles, and when you need them they are absolutely indispensable and will remain so in the future i just looks like it will become a 20-30mio$ a pop item. considering Boxer 8x8 that are now seeing adoption in much of Europe are already 8-10mio$ a pop without all bells and whistles.
 
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Actually nice to see some decent commentary, discussion as there is a lot of "tanks are useless" going around. I did like that the article weighed the cat and mouse game between ATGM and Defense. Combined arms is still a thing. Marines getting rid of MBT does have me concerned and drones are a new twist.

As far as energy weapons--I still think we have a ways to go, but its definitely on the horizon--not so much for penetration but secondary effects a la microwaves (heat).
A little personal history about tanks...

In late 1990 my MEU(SOC) was deploying to the Med. We were feeling a bit left out, with Desert Shield gearing up (and about to become Desert Storm). Back then, a MEU(SOC) normally deployed with a 5 ship MARG. One LKA, a couple LST's, and LPH and an LPD. But with Desert Shield building up, the Navy found itself short of ships capable of delivering men and material...and so we found ourselves deploying with just 3 ships. Guess what got left behind? All our armor, and all but 6 (IIRC) Arty batteries (of which only 2 tubes worked).

We knew this well in advance of our deployment. My Battalion commander was an older LtCol. Old enough that his first deployment as a 2nd Lt was to Vietnam in Nov of '67 (Merry Christmas <sarcasm>), and to a place called Khe Sanh. Experience two months later, was a painful teacher...and it showed. He obviously survived that engagement, but after his tour he transferred out of the infantry.

All of this is to say, when we found out we'd have no armor, Col. Kohl immediately reorganized our group (Service & Support) and stripped about 1/3-1/2 of the Marines from their Plts and formed a "provisional" Rifle Company (that was heavily armed in comparison to a normal rifle company's TO&E). Comms, MotorT, Combat Engineers, LSB/Shore Party, Supply...we all became grunts, because we knew if something happened, the BLT (Bn Landing Team) wouldn't be able to cover everything, and sans Armor, it was going to get bad if we had to mix it up in a furball.

After the airwar kicked off (we were in Toulon, France actually), we continued our cop-on-a-beat deployment, heading to Sardinia for Operation Dragon Hammer. Halfway through the beach landing, we get a flash message. War was over, but Iraqi Republican Guard were wiping out the ethnic Kurds, using helicopters, sarin nerve agent, and pushing them into the mountains, and then gunning them down in groups. So, we get orders to "proceed with best speed" to stop the shitstorm that was developing (even though most of the free world was still high on the stunning speed and success of Desert Storm). 12hrs after the message was received, we had re-embarked all gear (which is fucking mind boggling to understand or appreciate) an we were underway at a pretty good speed. As troops they told us nothing, other than it was real world, and they tell us when we got there, what exactly was going on. Three days later we arrived off the coast of somewhere, soon to be told we were in Iskenderun, Turkey.

Anyways, we roll in to Turkey; dis-embark all gear, distribute live ammunition, and take a 12+hr ride from Iskenderun, Turkey, transiting the Carpathian mountains, and down into the pocket of Turkey that interjects into Northern Iraq; Silopi, Turkey. We then rolled across the border (after removing the PE-4 demolition charges they had placed under the bridge for us; me and an Intel guy found them, but that's another story altogether).

The Iraqis were not happy to see us, and threatened to restart the war, since we were technically in a cease fire.

Now the Iraqis had moved many of their modern tanks up North to avoid some of the shit storm that happened down south. So as we rolled across the border into the town of Zakhu, Iraq, intent to set up an initial security perimeter in mountain pass (which ironically was very similar to the Delta T in 29 Palms), low and behold, we roll up on a T-72. Initially we thought it was a dummy, like the dummy inflatable BMP's we had seen spread out in the various minefields along the main roads leading in from the border. ...Until the turret started turning to track on us. Everyone bailed the vehicles and started forming a perimeter with AT-4's being brought to bear. Suddenly that tank hatch pops, and an IRG commander starts waving a handkerchief. Long story short, he wanted nothing to do with us, or our anti-tank rockets (we may have had a few TOW vehicles, but I don't recall them being around at the time). We find out he was ordered to hold the main city circle, and we explain we can't let him, and so he leaves down the mountain pass.

That night, the IRG were out probing lines, and getting into fire fights with the Kurds, since the word had spread, and every Kurd north of the 34th parallel was making a beeline for the 36th (line of demarcation for the DMZ, just north of Dihok, Iraq). We had no armor, and knew there were at least 3 Bn's of IRG in the area. HUssein was threatening to attack with his troops, and the State Department was in the process of negotiating a resolution. The BLT and the provisional rifle company filled the lines. Even so, there was about 75-100yds between each hole. We had aircraft from the USS Roosevelt flying CAP and providing illumination on-call drops the whole night. Surreal doesn't begin to explain the feeling of being up on a ridgeline, no armor, no significant Arty (only two guns working), and too steep for 81's to realistically support, with no back up beyond the remaining 100 people or so, back in Silopi (25-35mins away). Suffice it to say, the next few days were...stressful, but we prepared as best we could, laid out mines (as if there weren't enough already spread out in that shithole), and waited.

That's what Marines do. Is armor wanted? Hell yes. Is it really needed? No, not always (and it comes with a very long logistical tail/cost). You adapt, you improvise, and you fall back on your training. All those sand table exercises that the Col required, all paid off. Terrain was used to our advantage, and appropriate weapons were distributed to deal with the threat. Choke points were used (and manned) very effectively, much like they're doing in Ukraine today.

So all of this is to say, no I don't think you need to be concerned about tanks for the Marines. In the coming peer adversary conflict, it'll be more important that the Corps go back to it's mantra of being shock troops, capable of breaking opposing forces through maneuver and violence of action. Marine Tanks will just bog that down. Better to spend those dollars that were spent on tanks, to better arm and train Marines in how to quickly, and violently neutralize armor threats, and then close in and crush the supporting infantry. Back when I deployed we had waaaayyyy more training than what I see in today's Corps. Hopefully that changes as well, now that the armor has been removed from the equation.

Anyways, sorry for the long post, but just wanted to give a different (and personal) perspective. Tanks are nice, but they're not required most times, especially in high relief terrain.
 
What Ukraine shows so far is the solidification that you need to own the air, and you need high altitude precision weapons.

Russia has neither and it’s costing.

Also we need to think slightly differently. For the entire WOT we were confronting a poorly trained poorly armed force (not disrespecting anyone so do t take it that way).

If Iraq was Moscow/near-peer weapons there would be scores more dead on the ground. And armor littered everywhere.

If the Iraqi had javelins…it would have been a totally different story when the first armor column went into Baghdad. And even then our armor was taking a beating compared to gulf war 1.

We /the west havnt seen real war in 60 years. Not owning the air and same generation ground weapons is Korean War. Lots of guys had to die.

I was just talking with someone guessing what lessons we are learning.
I'm not getting what you're laying down. What I'm seeing, after some initial horrible missteps, is that the Russians are keeping their tanks and infantry well back, and using their massive artillery supremacy to obliterate Ukrain's soldiers, citizens, and cities with a relentless rain of shells. This looks a lot like the tactics of WWII, and it looks like it's still working pretty good. It's it the opposite of "smart" warfare, but it's effective nonetheless.
Those piles of Ukrainian bodies they're putting on the internet (to show how they are winning) aren't shot. They're pulverized by concussive force (artillery shells). By the time Russian soldiers/tanks get to where the Ukrainian people and buildings are there is nothing left and they're just mopping up the ashes and executing anyone who somehow escaped the bombardment.
 
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I'm not getting what you're laying down. What I'm seeing, after some initial horrible missteps, is that the Russians are keeping their tanks and infantry well back, and using their massive artillery supremacy to obliterate Ukrain's soldiers, citizens, and cities with a relentless rain of shells. This looks a lot like the tactics of WWII, and it looks like it's still working pretty good. It's it the opposite of "smart" warfare, but it's effective nonetheless.
Those piles of Ukrainian bodies they're putting on the internet (to show how they are winning) aren't shot. They're pulverized by concussive force (artillery shells). By the time Russian soldiers/tanks get to where the Ukrainian people and buildings are there is nothing left and they're just mopping up the ashes and executing anyone who somehow escaped the bombardment.
100% true but we don’t wage war like that/Russians.

The american stomach for shelling a residential neighborhood is close to “0”.

If the media didn’t show a dead “innocent” baby and want the general up on charges we could have carpet bombed all of Iraq …twice. With zero casualties except for accidents.

Where as WWII style was the exact opposite as you state.

So, since we have to physically identify the enemy because of idiotic ROI, it limits our stand off ability. Now our tanks and armor are inside the city with a RPG in every window.
 
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Correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the US MBTs have active protection missile systems that scan the surrounding sky without even needing the crew to pay attention to it, and they will take out anything like a Javelin long before it reaches the tank?

Yes they do.

No, I wouldn't want to be inside the tank to prove that it works.
 
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In the end, we have to separate the skewed picture the propaganda machine is presenting vs reality and also any illusions that the western military would fare much better when faced with an opponent that is supplied at least with stuff Ukraine got .

Hard kill APS systems are only being introduced in western tanks now and very few are actually fielded on tanks and almost none on other armor, second thing is most fielded systems do not provide much protection against Javelin as they were designed to deal old fashioned RPGs and beam riders like TOW, Kornet. Most of the up armoring is geared towards RPGs and not much protection is given for top attack threats.

Had a western military faced such a flood of Javelins,NLAWs, Stingers,Switchblades, drones etc, and adversaries that are trained and supplied with all the intel western military and civilian assets can generate we would be looking at much the same picture burned up wrecks all over the place.

Looking all the massive shift toward wheeled armor in past two decades, you would have fields of Ukraine littered with stuck armor, you see Russian gear particularly wheeled vehicles stuck in the mud and all of their gear is far more tailored to those conditions with much lower ground pressure, western 8x8 that are edging towards 30tons would be confined to roads 99,98% of the time.

But in spite of all the threats it faces tank is still king of the battle field, for all the armor losses tanks still suffer least of all the armored vehicles, and when you need them they are absolutely indispensable and will remain so in the future i just looks like it will become a 20-30mio$ a pop item. considering Boxer 8x8 that are now seeing adoption in much of Europe are already 8-10mio$ a pop without all bells and whistles.
along those lines is why they are really pushing the f-35 to the finish line (not here to discuss it)

the future of warfare is swarm drones

the f-35 has data link systems on board to allow it to lead the way from BVR.

there has been several simulated war games that the rules had to be changed because the games never got past day one.

one in particular was a retired admiral was in charge of the red force, he consistently launched more missiles than the carrier group could defend.

i forget the numbers but if the carrier has a 100 anti missile defense he would use 150...some had to get through.

they actually had to stop him from doing that so the simulation could move forward.

china's stealth fighter is really only stealth from 12:00. so they fly in close launch all their ord and try and bug out. now the navy has to resupply across the pacific etc...area denial

another chinese doctrine is send up 500 1970 mig 21's again not caring about the pilot or plane, each american fighter carries X number of missiles....some mig 21's have to get through.

thats why the new upgrade of the f-15 carries some insane amount of AA missiles 20 if i remember.

f-22/35 gets in close and the 15's fire from the back out of range.

AA missiles data link to the 22/35 and get guided to target.

there was actually a plan put forth for change out the B-1's engines and make it a missile truck carrying upwards of 80

they would keep the swarm attack at bay while having the speed and flight range to disengage if needed

sorry for the side track but as you say the big stuff will get more expensive so naturally there will be less, but i fully expect there to a "clusters of drones" over the battle field.
 
100% true but we don’t wage war like that/Russians.

The american stomach for shelling a residential neighborhood is close to “0”.

If the media didn’t show a dead “innocent” baby and want the general up on charges we could have carpet bombed all of Iraq …twice. With zero casualties except for accidents.

Where as WWII style was the exact opposite as you state.

So, since we have to physically identify the enemy because of idiotic ROI, it limits our stand off ability. Now our tanks and armor are inside the city with a RPG in every window.
Are you serious ,so Raqqa ,Falluja,Mosul were not leveled? Smart or not they were still leveled fighting a small insurgent force. Ukrainian cities with exception of those that are being fought in are practically untouched.



So at one point folks have to decide have Russian logistics broken down or are they indiscriminately shelling cities and last hospitals that takes a lot of ordinances that has to be transported to the front to achieve a goal of killing the Ukrainian military personnel?Also its not like operating a howitzer in Iraq or Afghanistan here opposing force has at least some counter battery radars and shit load of ISR so firing 'indiscriminately at worthless targets' is literally playing Russian roulette to when counter battery fires might get you.

MSM shows what is in the interest of the state department, anyone who thinks US MSM is much different than North Koren state TV is a fool , when it comes to war they are always all in , they couldn't ever show bodies and caskets of US troops for past 20 years all info strictly controlled and sanitized, fucking North Korea level self-censorship on every news outlet is practically a norm these days.

Like it or not the moral high ground is practically non existent , but there sure is lots of projection going on.PRecision doing and killing 20k civilians on bad intel is in the end effect 'indiscriminate shelling'

WP to protect the civilians from ISIS snipers was the PR line , come on give me abreak. The difference is only in the MSM reporting
white-phosphorus.jpg
mosul-kT6F--621x414@LiveMint.jpg





 
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Are you serious ,so Raqqa ,Falluja,Mosul were not leveled? Smart or not they were still leveled fighting a small insurgent force. Ukrainian cities with exception of those that are being fought in are practically untouched.

So at one point folks have to decide are Russian logistics have broken down or are they indiscriminately shelling cities and last hospitals that takes a lot of ordinances that has to be transported to the front to achieve a goal of killing the Ukrainian military personel?

MSM shows what is in the interest of the state department , anyone who thinks US MSM is much different than North Koren state TV is a fool , when it comes to war they are always all in , they couldn't ever show bodies and caskets of US troops for past 20 years all info strictly controlled and sanitized, fucking North Korea level self-censorship on every news outlet is practically a norm these days.

WP to protect the civilians from ISIS snipers was the PR line , come on give me abreak. The difference is only in the MSM reporting
white-phosphorus.jpg
mosul-kT6F--621x414@LiveMint.jpg








all joking aside, you think what happened to ISIS is the same as a flight of b-52's dropping unguided ord from 35,000 for weeks on end or firebombing of Tokyo in WWII...not even close

the russians arent dropping pamphlets like we did saying that if your in the city after MM/DD/YYYY your considered a combatant

the russians chose this style because:

1. they dont care about civilian casualties
2. they dont have the volume of precision ord needed

the russians supposedly had quality gear (which we found out to be false over the last 20 years), and what they do have they only have a few of in comparison
 
It’s funny how the media was able to make the smooth brains think broke ass Russia was a boogie man for so long.

I’ve always said if a land where the average person makes less than the average Mexican, is a real threat to the US, I want a refund on every cent I paid in taxes.
That is the truth right there
 
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It’s funny how the media was able to make the smooth brains think broke ass Russia was a boogie man for so long.

I’ve always said if a land where the average person makes less than the average Mexican, is a real threat to the US, I want a refund on every cent I paid in taxes.
We should take it back.
 
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@MarinePMI pretty much nailed it and I am going to pile on.

The Tank is in no way dead, it is one of the best support by fire platforms available and it is also great for demoralizing the enemy by crushing their sewer yarns:D with roughly 72 tons of love, more if they have the reactive armor on it.
Soviets demonstrated their inability to operate decentralized. Their system is very centralized which compounds the problem. Their soldiers only take commands and do not understand the intent, reason behind why they are doing what they are doing. This lends to mission failure in a dynamic, rapidly changing environment when soldiers only know to go to point "a" and not what to do next so they only go to point "a" and stop to wait for more guidance.
Next their inability to synchronize efforts across the warfighting spectrum is absolutely astounding aka inability to execute combined arms maneuver. Movement and maneuver, shaping of the battle field, it is all lacking. It is absolutely crazy how bad they suck!
Tanks are incredible systems. Great systems, but without infantry to secure and/or clear ahead of them they will get hemmed up really quickly as we can see. You don't lead with tanks unless you want to loose said tanks.

Armor brings forth a really robust and much more survivable support by fire platform.

Just my .02
 
@MarinePMI pretty much nailed it and I am going to pile on.

The Tank is in no way dead, it is one of the best support by fire platforms available and it is also great for demoralizing the enemy by crushing their sewer yarns:D with roughly 72 tons of love, more if they have the reactive armor on it.
Soviets demonstrated their inability to operate decentralized. Their system is very centralized which compounds the problem. Their soldiers only take commands and do not understand the intent, reason behind why they are doing what they are doing. This lends to mission failure in a dynamic, rapidly changing environment when soldiers only know to go to point "a" and not what to do next so they only go to point "a" and stop to wait for more guidance.
Next their inability to synchronize efforts across the warfighting spectrum is absolutely astounding aka inability to execute combined arms maneuver. Movement and maneuver, shaping of the battle field, it is all lacking. It is absolutely crazy how bad they suck!
Tanks are incredible systems. Great systems, but without infantry to secure and/or clear ahead of them they will get hemmed up really quickly as we can see. You don't lead with tanks unless you want to loose said tanks.

Armor brings forth a really robust and much more survivable support by fire platform.

Just my .02

That’s common in the communist mind.

Shit when’s the last time a chinaman had a original thought?

It’s genetics, and it takes more than a vote to drive that out of a population, same with the puritanical BS we still have (to a smaller extent) in the US, combloc russia and ukraine were commie MUCH more recently.
 
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That’s common in the communist mind.

Shit when’s the last time a chinaman had a original thought?

It’s genetics, and it takes more than a vote to drive that out of a population, same with the puritanical BS we still have (to a smaller extent) in the US, combloc russia and ukraine were commie MUCH more recently.
Actually, it's not really anything to do with communism per se, it's not common thought, but more often common language that is the problem.

I think people forget how large Russia is; it spans 14 time zones. Think about that a moment. Add to that, the old communist practice of taking conscripts from the east (which are for all extents and purposes, Asian) and station them in the west (and vice versa). It's a lot easier for government troops to suppress civil dissent, when those civilians have different cultures and languages. But I digress....

Most conscripts (unless things have changed drastically) don't speak Russian. Or in many cases only a few words. Again, communication (i.e. language) matters in combined arms maneuver warfare. There's a reason most Russian military manuals are heavily populated with pictograms; it helps bridge the language barrier within the Russian military.

Look at the Tank Companies. Specifically, look at the tank turrets themselves. How many have radio antennas? Many of the older tanks don't have them except for the Tank commander, and he conveys orders via hand signals to the others tanks. No lead tank, no comms.

The Chinese are much different. They have embraced mechanized, combined arms warfare, which you can see demonstrated by their force mix. Back when the Soviets were experimenting with "Div 87" (mechanized modernization effort in 1987), the Chinese were already fielding new combined arms Regiments and Brigades. They also have ruthlessly enforced that all Chinese speak Mandarin (the National language). They're not stupid; they know how critical a common language is, both militarily as well as industrially.

I won't even get started on the difference between Ukrainians and Russians. But just like the Welsh, don't ever refer to a Ukrainian as a Russian; you'll get an ear full.
 
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Actually, it's not really anything to do with communism per se, it's not common thought, but more often common language that is the problem.

I think people forget how large Russia is; it spans 14 time zones. Think about that a moment. Add to that, the old communist practice of taking conscripts from the east (which are for all extents and purposes, Asian) and station them in the west (and vice versa). It's a lot easier for government troops to suppress civil dissent, when those civilians have different cultures and languages. But I digress....

Most conscripts (unless things have changed drastically) don't speak Russian. Or in many cases only a few words. Again, communication (i.e. language) matters in combined arms maneuver warfare.

Look at the Tank Companies. Specifically, look at the tank turrets themselves. How many have radio antennas? Many of the older tanks don't have them except for the Tank commander, and he conveys orders via hand signals to the others tanks. No lead tank, no comms.

The Chinese are much different. They have embraced mechanized, combined arms warfare, which you can see demonstrated by their force mix. Back when the Soviets were experimenting with "Div 87" (mechanized modernization effort), the Chinese were already fielding new combined arms Regiments and Brigades. They also have ruthlessly enforced that all Chinese speak Mandarin (the National language). They're not stupid; they know how critical a common language is, both militarily as well as industrially.

I won't even get started on the difference between Ukrainians and Russians. But just like the Welsh, don't ever refer to a Ukrainian as a Russian; you'll get an ear full.

Still a large population which embraces the government like a god / heavy group think.

Same same.

Like a commie vs a fascist, different branding, same end product.

I hope both russia and ukraine wins