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The word "Budget"...
- Thread starter Enough Said
- Start date
Re: The word "Budget"...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hennig</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was being born. Winner. </div></div>I promised never to tell about that hot, steamy night thousands of miles from home.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hennig</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was being born. Winner. </div></div>I promised never to tell about that hot, steamy night thousands of miles from home.
Re: The word "Budget"...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Enough Said</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When I became a sniper, they handed me the best rifle available. Not a budget rifle.
</div></div>
I spent 20+ years in the military. And, I can guarantee on thing. You DID NOT get issued the best rifle there was. You got issued the best rifle that the LOWEST BIDDER could provide. Which in fact was a "budget" rifle. The budget the military set for that particular peice of equipment.
Everyone needs to work within thier own budget.
A budget rifle (in most other peoples mind) is a rifle that suits thier needs for a reasonable price. What is really the difference between sub MOA rifle that cost 3000 dollars and a sub MOA rifle that cost 1000 dollars ...... they both shoot sub MOA. More expensive doesn't always neccessarily mean better. Most of the time, you end up paying more for a name than you do for a "better" product. If I can afford to build a 3000 dollar rifle, but decide to build a 1200 dollar rifle instead it is a budget rifle ..... regardless of what "everyone on the hide" is using. It may not be the best name in the industry. But, if it shoots sub MOA reliably and suits the needs of the user, then the word "budget" doesn't neccessarily mean it's inferior. I've seen people with 5000 dollar rifles that couldn't hit a god damn thing. The quality of shooter means much more than the name and price of the rifle.
Don't get me wrong. What you are saying about learn and educate yourself are great advise. But, you can learn using your grand daddies Remington just as well as you can learn using the latest from GAP. I'd rather see a person learn with a budget rifle and really truely get a feel for what thier situation needs or demands of thier equipment. Rather than spend a ton of money on something that "the guys on the hide" are using ...... just to find out he wasted a bunch of money on something that doesn't even work well for him.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Enough Said</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When I became a sniper, they handed me the best rifle available. Not a budget rifle.
</div></div>
I spent 20+ years in the military. And, I can guarantee on thing. You DID NOT get issued the best rifle there was. You got issued the best rifle that the LOWEST BIDDER could provide. Which in fact was a "budget" rifle. The budget the military set for that particular peice of equipment.
Everyone needs to work within thier own budget.
A budget rifle (in most other peoples mind) is a rifle that suits thier needs for a reasonable price. What is really the difference between sub MOA rifle that cost 3000 dollars and a sub MOA rifle that cost 1000 dollars ...... they both shoot sub MOA. More expensive doesn't always neccessarily mean better. Most of the time, you end up paying more for a name than you do for a "better" product. If I can afford to build a 3000 dollar rifle, but decide to build a 1200 dollar rifle instead it is a budget rifle ..... regardless of what "everyone on the hide" is using. It may not be the best name in the industry. But, if it shoots sub MOA reliably and suits the needs of the user, then the word "budget" doesn't neccessarily mean it's inferior. I've seen people with 5000 dollar rifles that couldn't hit a god damn thing. The quality of shooter means much more than the name and price of the rifle.
Don't get me wrong. What you are saying about learn and educate yourself are great advise. But, you can learn using your grand daddies Remington just as well as you can learn using the latest from GAP. I'd rather see a person learn with a budget rifle and really truely get a feel for what thier situation needs or demands of thier equipment. Rather than spend a ton of money on something that "the guys on the hide" are using ...... just to find out he wasted a bunch of money on something that doesn't even work well for him.
Re: The word "Budget"...
Idiocy at it's best. Are you an asshole? Nope, just ignorant plain and simple. And yes I do have a couple VERY expensive sticks. But then again I guess we should all be saving for a bugatti veyron to be in our driveways too cuz our "budget" jeeps and fords and ...... etc. were just short term and short minded purchases. Personally I think it was said best by the relation to Hathcock and Haya. But hey if they would have saved more...... And let me inform you, the shit the military issues is NOT the best out there! Hathcock killed a viet-cong at over 1900yds with a single shot from an M2, best??? holy shit, that thing is as far from precision as it gets, but guess what, it works. And if you use the tools you have and/or can afford and do it with great authority and success....... then kiss my budget ass. Gents, I apologize, I don't put out negatively opinionated posts on the net but this type of shit is outlandish very abrasive, especially for new shooters. It's time that us red blooded americans who make a living by the sweat of our brow and have a half a brain quit putting up with all the beurocratic bullshit. Stepping on toes....? How the hell was America formed as a nation. And common sense isn't common at all any more. They don't teach that anymore, which is a damn shame!
So to the OP, you bring all the money you got and your super high end best of the best rig to my neck of the woods and you'll leave broke and ashamed that my cheap ass savage actioned small bore put together a group (consistently!) of under 2" at over 800 yds. Guess if I would have thrown out the "budget" I could've gotten better groups. Then again, when I shoot my super fandango high end surgeon next to it, which shoots phenominally btw, I should blame someone else when the "lil cheapy" still walks it. Grow up.
Idiocy at it's best. Are you an asshole? Nope, just ignorant plain and simple. And yes I do have a couple VERY expensive sticks. But then again I guess we should all be saving for a bugatti veyron to be in our driveways too cuz our "budget" jeeps and fords and ...... etc. were just short term and short minded purchases. Personally I think it was said best by the relation to Hathcock and Haya. But hey if they would have saved more...... And let me inform you, the shit the military issues is NOT the best out there! Hathcock killed a viet-cong at over 1900yds with a single shot from an M2, best??? holy shit, that thing is as far from precision as it gets, but guess what, it works. And if you use the tools you have and/or can afford and do it with great authority and success....... then kiss my budget ass. Gents, I apologize, I don't put out negatively opinionated posts on the net but this type of shit is outlandish very abrasive, especially for new shooters. It's time that us red blooded americans who make a living by the sweat of our brow and have a half a brain quit putting up with all the beurocratic bullshit. Stepping on toes....? How the hell was America formed as a nation. And common sense isn't common at all any more. They don't teach that anymore, which is a damn shame!
So to the OP, you bring all the money you got and your super high end best of the best rig to my neck of the woods and you'll leave broke and ashamed that my cheap ass savage actioned small bore put together a group (consistently!) of under 2" at over 800 yds. Guess if I would have thrown out the "budget" I could've gotten better groups. Then again, when I shoot my super fandango high end surgeon next to it, which shoots phenominally btw, I should blame someone else when the "lil cheapy" still walks it. Grow up.
Re: The word "Budget"...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowstryder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Idiocy at it's best. Are you an asshole? Nope, just ignorant plain and simple. And yes I do have a couple VERY expensive sticks. But then again I guess we should all be saving for a bugatti veyron to be in our driveways too cuz our "budget" jeeps and fords and ...... etc. were just short term and short minded purchases. Personally I think it was said best by the relation to Hathcock and Haya. But hey if they would have saved more...... And let me inform you, the shit the military issues is NOT the best out there! Hathcock killed a viet-cong at over 1900yds with a single shot from an M2, best??? holy shit, that thing is as far from precision as it gets, but guess what, it works. And if you use the tools you have and/or can afford and do it with great authority and success....... then kiss my budget ass. Gents, I apologize, I don't put out negatively opinionated posts on the net but this type of shit is outlandish very abrasive, especially for new shooters. It's time that us red blooded americans who make a living by the sweat of our brow and have a half a brain quit putting up with all the beurocratic bullshit. Stepping on toes....? How the hell was America formed as a nation. And common sense isn't common at all any more. They don't teach that anymore, which is a damn shame!
So to the OP, you bring all the money you got and your super high end best of the best rig to my neck of the woods and you'll leave broke and ashamed that my cheap ass savage actioned small bore put together a group (consistently!) of under 2" at over 800 yds. Guess if I would have thrown out the "budget" I could've gotten better groups. Then again, when I shoot my super fandango high end surgeon next to it, which shoots phenominally btw, I should blame someone else when the "lil cheapy" still walks it. Grow up. </div></div>
Wow, I thought I was an illiterate SOB with little education!!!! I got and understood what Enough Said was trying to convey but guess it was wayyyy too deep for some of you who have posted on this thread. Cannot believe how vile and obnoxious some of you can be to a complete stranger(and a fellow Military Brother at that) and all because you can't or don't want to understand the point he was trying to make. Damn, I thought I was a stupid fuck!!!!
....and I wonder why I still log in here?? Guess it is to realize that no matter my health and life situation it still doesn't suck as bad as some of your guys lives must?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowstryder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Idiocy at it's best. Are you an asshole? Nope, just ignorant plain and simple. And yes I do have a couple VERY expensive sticks. But then again I guess we should all be saving for a bugatti veyron to be in our driveways too cuz our "budget" jeeps and fords and ...... etc. were just short term and short minded purchases. Personally I think it was said best by the relation to Hathcock and Haya. But hey if they would have saved more...... And let me inform you, the shit the military issues is NOT the best out there! Hathcock killed a viet-cong at over 1900yds with a single shot from an M2, best??? holy shit, that thing is as far from precision as it gets, but guess what, it works. And if you use the tools you have and/or can afford and do it with great authority and success....... then kiss my budget ass. Gents, I apologize, I don't put out negatively opinionated posts on the net but this type of shit is outlandish very abrasive, especially for new shooters. It's time that us red blooded americans who make a living by the sweat of our brow and have a half a brain quit putting up with all the beurocratic bullshit. Stepping on toes....? How the hell was America formed as a nation. And common sense isn't common at all any more. They don't teach that anymore, which is a damn shame!
So to the OP, you bring all the money you got and your super high end best of the best rig to my neck of the woods and you'll leave broke and ashamed that my cheap ass savage actioned small bore put together a group (consistently!) of under 2" at over 800 yds. Guess if I would have thrown out the "budget" I could've gotten better groups. Then again, when I shoot my super fandango high end surgeon next to it, which shoots phenominally btw, I should blame someone else when the "lil cheapy" still walks it. Grow up. </div></div>
Wow, I thought I was an illiterate SOB with little education!!!! I got and understood what Enough Said was trying to convey but guess it was wayyyy too deep for some of you who have posted on this thread. Cannot believe how vile and obnoxious some of you can be to a complete stranger(and a fellow Military Brother at that) and all because you can't or don't want to understand the point he was trying to make. Damn, I thought I was a stupid fuck!!!!
....and I wonder why I still log in here?? Guess it is to realize that no matter my health and life situation it still doesn't suck as bad as some of your guys lives must?
Re: The word "Budget"...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowstryder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So to the OP, you bring all the money you got and your super high end best of the best rig to my neck of the woods and you'll leave broke and ashamed that my cheap ass savage actioned small bore put together a group (consistently!) of under 2" at over 800 yds.</div></div>
That would require a greater degree of accuracy than consistently hitting playing cards at 1000 yards.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowstryder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So to the OP, you bring all the money you got and your super high end best of the best rig to my neck of the woods and you'll leave broke and ashamed that my cheap ass savage actioned small bore put together a group (consistently!) of under 2" at over 800 yds.</div></div>
That would require a greater degree of accuracy than consistently hitting playing cards at 1000 yards.
Re: The word "Budget"...
Dammit at this thread...
I've never seen as much useless dick measuring on this site as I have in the last two pages. You guys need to get your head out of your asses & do something constructive.
Jimeny-fukn-cricket...
And YES, we know everyone has a different standard as to what a budget is.
If you are a cheep SOB (like me) or don't have the cash, set a limit.
If you have all of your daddy's money, spend it.
But get over your bad selves & get on with it already!
Dammit at this thread...
I've never seen as much useless dick measuring on this site as I have in the last two pages. You guys need to get your head out of your asses & do something constructive.
Jimeny-fukn-cricket...
And YES, we know everyone has a different standard as to what a budget is.
If you are a cheep SOB (like me) or don't have the cash, set a limit.
If you have all of your daddy's money, spend it.
But get over your bad selves & get on with it already!
Re: The word "Budget"...
Its the posts like this that turn me away from wanting to shoot long range. Im a 16 year old kid who wants to start shooting long range. Ive been saving money to get a rifle for about 6 months now. Then i see this shit and i go, wow, people who shoot long range are just a bunch of assholes. They dont want me to shoot with them if i dont have a $6000 rifle and 10k worth of optics. They'll laugh at me if i show up with a basic 700, which i worked my ass off to get.
Oh, and guess what, i compete with a $300 rifle.
And ive shot on the U.S. Junior olympic team.
Twice.
Its the posts like this that turn me away from wanting to shoot long range. Im a 16 year old kid who wants to start shooting long range. Ive been saving money to get a rifle for about 6 months now. Then i see this shit and i go, wow, people who shoot long range are just a bunch of assholes. They dont want me to shoot with them if i dont have a $6000 rifle and 10k worth of optics. They'll laugh at me if i show up with a basic 700, which i worked my ass off to get.
Oh, and guess what, i compete with a $300 rifle.
And ive shot on the U.S. Junior olympic team.
Twice.
Re: The word "Budget"...
...and I was just about to hit the rack for a new duty day tomorrow and fell upon this little jewel...popcorn is made, please continue...wait, this isn't the pit???
...and I was just about to hit the rack for a new duty day tomorrow and fell upon this little jewel...popcorn is made, please continue...wait, this isn't the pit???
Re: The word "Budget"...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muttt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Enough Said</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When I became a sniper, they handed me the best rifle available. Not a budget rifle.
</div></div>
I spent 20+ years in the military. And, I can guarantee on thing. You DID NOT get issued the best rifle there was. You got issued the best rifle that the LOWEST BIDDER could provide. .</div></div>
Hate to break it to you guys,
The USMC did not contract a rifle from any bidder, not the lowest that is for sure, they built the rifle themselves as no one was making a " sniper rifle" at the time of the M40a1. The Army was using the M21 and there were no "tactical" rifles being made by anyone else. (US)
The USMC sniping program was the Gold standard and the M40A1 was the best out there. It had no compairable competition.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muttt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Enough Said</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When I became a sniper, they handed me the best rifle available. Not a budget rifle.
</div></div>
I spent 20+ years in the military. And, I can guarantee on thing. You DID NOT get issued the best rifle there was. You got issued the best rifle that the LOWEST BIDDER could provide. .</div></div>
Hate to break it to you guys,
The USMC did not contract a rifle from any bidder, not the lowest that is for sure, they built the rifle themselves as no one was making a " sniper rifle" at the time of the M40a1. The Army was using the M21 and there were no "tactical" rifles being made by anyone else. (US)
The USMC sniping program was the Gold standard and the M40A1 was the best out there. It had no compairable competition.
Re: The word "Budget"...
I'd sure rather be shooting with a cheaper rifle than setting at home without one.
I'd sure rather be shooting with a cheaper rifle than setting at home without one.
Re: The word "Budget"...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ldunnmobile</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd sure rather be shooting with a cheaper rifle than setting at home without one. </div></div>
+1. Couldn't say it any better.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ldunnmobile</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'd sure rather be shooting with a cheaper rifle than setting at home without one. </div></div>
+1. Couldn't say it any better.
Re: The word "Budget"...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Enough Said</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm starting to see the word "BUDGET" in here as often as the word "TACTICAL" is seen at the S.H.O.T. Show.
There is no such thing as a budget rifle. There's only the rifle you haven't saved long enough for.
I'm not being judgmental. Please understand that. However, when a person settles for a budget rifle you are compromising simply based upon the thought that you are settling on something you can afford NOW as opposed to something you can afford more of LATER.
It's simple; either you can afford to purchase now with funds available plus credit, or you can wait and afford the best, which may be the same equipment that your mentors on Snipers Hide are using. Now, this hobby, sport, or profession is either that, a hobby, sport, or profession. And there are numerous levels of entry, comfort, operation, and exit. Expensive equipment will not make you an expert in anything, however, compromising can afford you nothing but frustration with the process of becoming proficient.
When I became a sniper, they handed me the best rifle available. Not a budget rifle.
Take it from a fellow just getting back to my roots and take your time. Know your level of entry and level of proficiency. Goals are not necessarily important if you are having fun. But, purchasing inferior product just to show up will not make you a better shot.
Take the time to seek formal EDUCATION and you will get the most out of whatever equipment you utilize.
You don't like budget beer or a budget girlfriend.
Don't accept budget equipment.
Again, not offensive in nature. I've been around a while and have been through gear. I learned to watch and listen to what the guys at my level were using and GO FOR IT.
</div></div>
Here, some of you really need to reread this first post. Where in it does it say you have to buy an expensive rifle???? What the OP was saying basically is if you read for 20 minutes on 'Snipers Hide' and want to shoot 1000 yards and you have $200 in your pocket to spend today for a rig you are going to be disappointed!!!! Pretty complicated huh? From the posts it must really be a challenge for some!!!
Just maybe he was referring to some planning, saving a few dollars more if need be and buy something that can at least get you close vs a POS rifle that goes bang because you wanted it today and only had $200? In other words, NO IMPULSE BUYING!
But then again you all knew that right???
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Enough Said</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm starting to see the word "BUDGET" in here as often as the word "TACTICAL" is seen at the S.H.O.T. Show.
There is no such thing as a budget rifle. There's only the rifle you haven't saved long enough for.
I'm not being judgmental. Please understand that. However, when a person settles for a budget rifle you are compromising simply based upon the thought that you are settling on something you can afford NOW as opposed to something you can afford more of LATER.
It's simple; either you can afford to purchase now with funds available plus credit, or you can wait and afford the best, which may be the same equipment that your mentors on Snipers Hide are using. Now, this hobby, sport, or profession is either that, a hobby, sport, or profession. And there are numerous levels of entry, comfort, operation, and exit. Expensive equipment will not make you an expert in anything, however, compromising can afford you nothing but frustration with the process of becoming proficient.
When I became a sniper, they handed me the best rifle available. Not a budget rifle.
Take it from a fellow just getting back to my roots and take your time. Know your level of entry and level of proficiency. Goals are not necessarily important if you are having fun. But, purchasing inferior product just to show up will not make you a better shot.
Take the time to seek formal EDUCATION and you will get the most out of whatever equipment you utilize.
You don't like budget beer or a budget girlfriend.
Don't accept budget equipment.
Again, not offensive in nature. I've been around a while and have been through gear. I learned to watch and listen to what the guys at my level were using and GO FOR IT.
</div></div>
Here, some of you really need to reread this first post. Where in it does it say you have to buy an expensive rifle???? What the OP was saying basically is if you read for 20 minutes on 'Snipers Hide' and want to shoot 1000 yards and you have $200 in your pocket to spend today for a rig you are going to be disappointed!!!! Pretty complicated huh? From the posts it must really be a challenge for some!!!
Just maybe he was referring to some planning, saving a few dollars more if need be and buy something that can at least get you close vs a POS rifle that goes bang because you wanted it today and only had $200? In other words, NO IMPULSE BUYING!
But then again you all knew that right???
Re: The word "Budget"...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Enough Said</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm starting to see the word "BUDGET" in here as often as the word "TACTICAL" is seen at the S.H.O.T. Show.
There is no such thing as a budget rifle. There's only the rifle you haven't saved long enough for.
I'm not being judgmental. Please understand that. However, when a person settles for a budget rifle you are compromising simply based upon the thought that you are settling on something you can afford NOW as opposed to something you can afford more of LATER.
It's simple; either you can afford to purchase now with funds available plus credit, or you can wait and afford the best, which may be the same equipment that your mentors on Snipers Hide are using. Now, this hobby, sport, or profession is either that, a hobby, sport, or profession. And there are numerous levels of entry, comfort, operation, and exit. Expensive equipment will not make you an expert in anything, however, compromising can afford you nothing but frustration with the process of becoming proficient.
When I became a sniper, they handed me the best rifle available. Not a budget rifle.
Take it from a fellow just getting back to my roots and take your time. Know your level of entry and level of proficiency. Goals are not necessarily important if you are having fun. But, purchasing inferior product just to show up will not make you a better shot.
Take the time to seek formal EDUCATION and you will get the most out of whatever equipment you utilize.
You don't like budget beer or a budget girlfriend.
Don't accept budget equipment.
Again, not offensive in nature. I've been around a while and have been through gear. I learned to watch and listen to what the guys at my level were using and GO FOR IT.
</div></div>
Here is my two cents....
The cost of your rifle and scope is considered fixed cost...( which will be the cheapest part of the experience ).
I have encouraged many new shooters to the tactical world of shooting.
Most if not all Have the ability to buy a very good top end rifle and scope from the start. The money to get that rifle is usually sitting in their closet or gun safe.
I had one guys jump up and down about the money I was telling him to spend on a setup. He said I was completely out of my mind. I then went to his house into his man cave...
He had ( this is approximate ) 10-15 different rifles with scopes. All were factory remington's, ruger's, weatherby's etc... with good glass mostly leupold's vary-x III. Many different calibers.
I suggested he sell as many as he needed to to buy a custom made rifle with S&B glass. and choose one caliber. Then go shoot and learn how to shoot it. Pay for training etc... then when you run low on funds for shooting and training sell another rifle in your collection and continue...
Here is a good article about the cost of Longrange shooting
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-optics/
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-shooting/
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Enough Said</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'm starting to see the word "BUDGET" in here as often as the word "TACTICAL" is seen at the S.H.O.T. Show.
There is no such thing as a budget rifle. There's only the rifle you haven't saved long enough for.
I'm not being judgmental. Please understand that. However, when a person settles for a budget rifle you are compromising simply based upon the thought that you are settling on something you can afford NOW as opposed to something you can afford more of LATER.
It's simple; either you can afford to purchase now with funds available plus credit, or you can wait and afford the best, which may be the same equipment that your mentors on Snipers Hide are using. Now, this hobby, sport, or profession is either that, a hobby, sport, or profession. And there are numerous levels of entry, comfort, operation, and exit. Expensive equipment will not make you an expert in anything, however, compromising can afford you nothing but frustration with the process of becoming proficient.
When I became a sniper, they handed me the best rifle available. Not a budget rifle.
Take it from a fellow just getting back to my roots and take your time. Know your level of entry and level of proficiency. Goals are not necessarily important if you are having fun. But, purchasing inferior product just to show up will not make you a better shot.
Take the time to seek formal EDUCATION and you will get the most out of whatever equipment you utilize.
You don't like budget beer or a budget girlfriend.
Don't accept budget equipment.
Again, not offensive in nature. I've been around a while and have been through gear. I learned to watch and listen to what the guys at my level were using and GO FOR IT.
</div></div>
Here is my two cents....
The cost of your rifle and scope is considered fixed cost...( which will be the cheapest part of the experience ).
I have encouraged many new shooters to the tactical world of shooting.
Most if not all Have the ability to buy a very good top end rifle and scope from the start. The money to get that rifle is usually sitting in their closet or gun safe.
I had one guys jump up and down about the money I was telling him to spend on a setup. He said I was completely out of my mind. I then went to his house into his man cave...
He had ( this is approximate ) 10-15 different rifles with scopes. All were factory remington's, ruger's, weatherby's etc... with good glass mostly leupold's vary-x III. Many different calibers.
I suggested he sell as many as he needed to to buy a custom made rifle with S&B glass. and choose one caliber. Then go shoot and learn how to shoot it. Pay for training etc... then when you run low on funds for shooting and training sell another rifle in your collection and continue...
Here is a good article about the cost of Longrange shooting
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-equipment/
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-optics/
http://demigodllc.com/articles/practical-long-range-rifle-shooting-shooting/
Re: The word "Budget"...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muttt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Enough Said</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When I became a sniper, they handed me the best rifle available. Not a budget rifle.
</div></div>
I spent 20+ years in the military. And, I can guarantee on thing. You DID NOT get issued the best rifle there was. You got issued the best rifle that the LOWEST BIDDER could provide. .</div></div>
Hate to break it to you guys,
The USMC did not contract a rifle from any bidder, not the lowest that is for sure, they built the rifle themselves as no one was making a " sniper rifle" at the time of the M40a1. The Army was using the M21 and there were no "tactical" rifles being made by anyone else. (US)
The USMC sniping program was the Gold standard and the M40A1 was the best out there. It had no compairable competition. </div></div> Wholeheartedly agree there and not just because I'm biased. Even in '99/'00 when I would go to competitions with my M40A1 it was the envy of most shooters there.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Muttt</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Enough Said</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When I became a sniper, they handed me the best rifle available. Not a budget rifle.
</div></div>
I spent 20+ years in the military. And, I can guarantee on thing. You DID NOT get issued the best rifle there was. You got issued the best rifle that the LOWEST BIDDER could provide. .</div></div>
Hate to break it to you guys,
The USMC did not contract a rifle from any bidder, not the lowest that is for sure, they built the rifle themselves as no one was making a " sniper rifle" at the time of the M40a1. The Army was using the M21 and there were no "tactical" rifles being made by anyone else. (US)
The USMC sniping program was the Gold standard and the M40A1 was the best out there. It had no compairable competition. </div></div> Wholeheartedly agree there and not just because I'm biased. Even in '99/'00 when I would go to competitions with my M40A1 it was the envy of most shooters there.
Re: The word "Budget"...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Big_Rig_416</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, and guess what, i compete with a $300 rifle.
And ive shot on the U.S. Junior olympic team.
Twice.
</div></div>
Friend of the family sell you his Anschutz for 300 bucks?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Big_Rig_416</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, and guess what, i compete with a $300 rifle.
And ive shot on the U.S. Junior olympic team.
Twice.
</div></div>
Friend of the family sell you his Anschutz for 300 bucks?
Re: The word "Budget"...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbsinh20</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Big_Rig_416</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, and guess what, i compete with a $300 rifle.
And ive shot on the U.S. Junior olympic team.
Twice.
</div></div>
Friend of the family sell you his Anschutz for 300 bucks?
</div></div>
Nope, i got a used crossman challenger against guys who use the $2000+ stuff. Its the shooter, not the equipment.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbsinh20</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Big_Rig_416</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, and guess what, i compete with a $300 rifle.
And ive shot on the U.S. Junior olympic team.
Twice.
</div></div>
Friend of the family sell you his Anschutz for 300 bucks?
</div></div>
Nope, i got a used crossman challenger against guys who use the $2000+ stuff. Its the shooter, not the equipment.
Re: The word "Budget"...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Big_Rig_416</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbsinh20</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Big_Rig_416</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, and guess what, i compete with a $300 rifle.
And ive shot on the U.S. Junior olympic team.
Twice.
</div></div>
Friend of the family sell you his Anschutz for 300 bucks?
</div></div>
Nope, i got a used crossman challenger against guys who use the $2000+ stuff. Its the shooter, not the equipment. </div></div>
Just imagine you might have won it if you had better equipement.....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Big_Rig_416</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dbsinh20</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Big_Rig_416</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Oh, and guess what, i compete with a $300 rifle.
And ive shot on the U.S. Junior olympic team.
Twice.
</div></div>
Friend of the family sell you his Anschutz for 300 bucks?
</div></div>
Nope, i got a used crossman challenger against guys who use the $2000+ stuff. Its the shooter, not the equipment. </div></div>
Just imagine you might have won it if you had better equipement.....
Re: The word "Budget"...
Okay, so I am illiterate eh? Yes my former rant was a bit on the extreme side. And I apologized for that, however, I shall again. I had a long day at work and was goosed up on painkillers due to a broken foot. Still sound of mind, yet the fingers wouldn't follow thought.
That being said, this thread is a lot of dick measuring. It's also a poor way to post a thought (the op) unless trying to incite some degree of arguments from.... well honestly, everyone.
I will always consider the m40 a fine rifle. However, Lowlight and others, you are wrong about it being the best of the best that was available. Yes the m21 was outdated and something needed to be done about a more precise sniping firearm, and many, both in house military, and private contractors brought their A game.
The final choice came down to a lucky shot from brigadier gen (I cannot for the life of me remember his name) after trying only two weapons and shooting the m40 prototype ONCE. Again, I am not saying that it is sub par for it's intended purpose. History has proven the complete opposite. But was it the best.... no. Why do you think it was based on a long action? The original prototype was not. Though it was adapted after long arguments from high ranking and field soldiers alike, complained about the lack of power from the 7.62 round. Hoping that the somewhat lethargic round would languish in a few short years and give way to the win. mag or similar other. Took a few decades for the military to finally realize that the 'lil m40 only filled a mid range niche and started with haste to add to the lineup.
Well that is certainly enough of an overview about that. And again I apologize for the hardly decipherable rant about "everything" earlier. However, please pick and choose words when bringing up opinions like this for a topic. It seems as though us folks that own and shoot and build sub top echelon weapon systems are thought to be doing so because we are either, ignorant, lazy, or too poor to go higher.
So was that literate enough SDWhirlwind?
Okay, so I am illiterate eh? Yes my former rant was a bit on the extreme side. And I apologized for that, however, I shall again. I had a long day at work and was goosed up on painkillers due to a broken foot. Still sound of mind, yet the fingers wouldn't follow thought.
That being said, this thread is a lot of dick measuring. It's also a poor way to post a thought (the op) unless trying to incite some degree of arguments from.... well honestly, everyone.
I will always consider the m40 a fine rifle. However, Lowlight and others, you are wrong about it being the best of the best that was available. Yes the m21 was outdated and something needed to be done about a more precise sniping firearm, and many, both in house military, and private contractors brought their A game.
The final choice came down to a lucky shot from brigadier gen (I cannot for the life of me remember his name) after trying only two weapons and shooting the m40 prototype ONCE. Again, I am not saying that it is sub par for it's intended purpose. History has proven the complete opposite. But was it the best.... no. Why do you think it was based on a long action? The original prototype was not. Though it was adapted after long arguments from high ranking and field soldiers alike, complained about the lack of power from the 7.62 round. Hoping that the somewhat lethargic round would languish in a few short years and give way to the win. mag or similar other. Took a few decades for the military to finally realize that the 'lil m40 only filled a mid range niche and started with haste to add to the lineup.
Well that is certainly enough of an overview about that. And again I apologize for the hardly decipherable rant about "everything" earlier. However, please pick and choose words when bringing up opinions like this for a topic. It seems as though us folks that own and shoot and build sub top echelon weapon systems are thought to be doing so because we are either, ignorant, lazy, or too poor to go higher.
So was that literate enough SDWhirlwind?
Re: The word "Budget"...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowstryder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, so I am illiterate eh? Yes my former rant was a bit on the extreme side. And I apologized for that, however, I shall again. I had a long day at work and was goosed up on painkillers due to a broken foot. Still sound of mind, yet the fingers wouldn't follow thought.
That being said, this thread is a lot of dick measuring. It's also a poor way to post a thought (the op) unless trying to incite some degree of arguments from.... well honestly, everyone.
I will always consider the m40 a fine rifle. However, Lowlight and others, you are wrong about it being the best of the best that was available. Yes the m21 was outdated and something needed to be done about a more precise sniping firearm, and many, both in house military, and private contractors brought their A game.
The final choice came down to a lucky shot from brigadier gen (I cannot for the life of me remember his name) after trying only two weapons and shooting the m40 prototype ONCE. Again, I am not saying that it is sub par for it's intended purpose. History has proven the complete opposite. But was it the best.... no. Why do you think it was based on a long action? The original prototype was not. Though it was adapted after long arguments from high ranking and field soldiers alike, complained about the lack of power from the 7.62 round. Hoping that the somewhat lethargic round would languish in a few short years and give way to the win. mag or similar other. Took a few decades for the military to finally realize that the 'lil m40 only filled a mid range niche and started with haste to add to the lineup.
Well that is certainly enough of an overview about that. And again I apologize for the hardly decipherable rant about "everything" earlier. However, please pick and choose words when bringing up opinions like this for a topic. It seems as though us folks that own and shoot and build sub top echelon weapon systems are thought to be doing so because we are either, ignorant, lazy, or too poor to go higher.
So was that literate enough SDWhirlwind?</div></div>
Dumb ass you are talking the M24, the M40A1 is a short action made by the precision weapons shop of the USMC and predates the long action M24. It is assembled by the USMC Armorers from components that were chosen or the mission.
Go take another painkiller.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowstryder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, so I am illiterate eh? Yes my former rant was a bit on the extreme side. And I apologized for that, however, I shall again. I had a long day at work and was goosed up on painkillers due to a broken foot. Still sound of mind, yet the fingers wouldn't follow thought.
That being said, this thread is a lot of dick measuring. It's also a poor way to post a thought (the op) unless trying to incite some degree of arguments from.... well honestly, everyone.
I will always consider the m40 a fine rifle. However, Lowlight and others, you are wrong about it being the best of the best that was available. Yes the m21 was outdated and something needed to be done about a more precise sniping firearm, and many, both in house military, and private contractors brought their A game.
The final choice came down to a lucky shot from brigadier gen (I cannot for the life of me remember his name) after trying only two weapons and shooting the m40 prototype ONCE. Again, I am not saying that it is sub par for it's intended purpose. History has proven the complete opposite. But was it the best.... no. Why do you think it was based on a long action? The original prototype was not. Though it was adapted after long arguments from high ranking and field soldiers alike, complained about the lack of power from the 7.62 round. Hoping that the somewhat lethargic round would languish in a few short years and give way to the win. mag or similar other. Took a few decades for the military to finally realize that the 'lil m40 only filled a mid range niche and started with haste to add to the lineup.
Well that is certainly enough of an overview about that. And again I apologize for the hardly decipherable rant about "everything" earlier. However, please pick and choose words when bringing up opinions like this for a topic. It seems as though us folks that own and shoot and build sub top echelon weapon systems are thought to be doing so because we are either, ignorant, lazy, or too poor to go higher.
So was that literate enough SDWhirlwind?</div></div>
Dumb ass you are talking the M24, the M40A1 is a short action made by the precision weapons shop of the USMC and predates the long action M24. It is assembled by the USMC Armorers from components that were chosen or the mission.
Go take another painkiller.
Re: The word "Budget"...
People that need hand-holding are going to find a way to justify their bubba'ed sticks or their geewhiz sticks to others. You worked your ass off to earn that cash. Now go spend it and make yourself happy. Who cares if someone next to you has something ten times more expensive or ten times cheaper than what you're using? See that shit-eating grin on their face?
Have some goddamn fun.
People that need hand-holding are going to find a way to justify their bubba'ed sticks or their geewhiz sticks to others. You worked your ass off to earn that cash. Now go spend it and make yourself happy. Who cares if someone next to you has something ten times more expensive or ten times cheaper than what you're using? See that shit-eating grin on their face?
Have some goddamn fun.
Re: The word "Budget"...
This is the most worthless thread I've seen in a while. Way to make people feel bad who can't afford the best things things as if seeing pictures of $5k+ rigs on here everyday isn't bad enough. You don't need to own a Porsche to learn how to drive well.
I'd rather stick with something economically feasible for me now and get more time behind the trigger.
I think most in the shooting sports are friendly and helpful, but you sir are a d!ck.
This is the most worthless thread I've seen in a while. Way to make people feel bad who can't afford the best things things as if seeing pictures of $5k+ rigs on here everyday isn't bad enough. You don't need to own a Porsche to learn how to drive well.
I'd rather stick with something economically feasible for me now and get more time behind the trigger.
I think most in the shooting sports are friendly and helpful, but you sir are a d!ck.
Re: The word "Budget"...
This thread fucking sucks for new shooters. It's like hanging out with a bunch of dicks with $10k over-unders and all I have is my POS 870.
This thread fucking sucks for new shooters. It's like hanging out with a bunch of dicks with $10k over-unders and all I have is my POS 870.
Re: The word "Budget"...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowstryder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, so I am illiterate eh? Yes my former rant was a bit on the extreme side. And I apologized for that, however, I shall again. I had a long day at work and was goosed up on painkillers due to a broken foot. Still sound of mind, yet the fingers wouldn't follow thought.
That being said, this thread is a lot of dick measuring. It's also a poor way to post a thought (the op) unless trying to incite some degree of arguments from.... well honestly, everyone.
I will always consider the m40 a fine rifle. However, Lowlight and others, you are wrong about it being the best of the best that was available. Yes the m21 was outdated and something needed to be done about a more precise sniping firearm, and many, both in house military, and private contractors brought their A game.
The final choice came down to a lucky shot from brigadier gen (I cannot for the life of me remember his name) after trying only two weapons and shooting the m40 prototype ONCE. Again, I am not saying that it is sub par for it's intended purpose. History has proven the complete opposite. But was it the best.... no. Why do you think it was based on a long action? The original prototype was not. Though it was adapted after long arguments from high ranking and field soldiers alike, complained about the lack of power from the 7.62 round. Hoping that the somewhat lethargic round would languish in a few short years and give way to the win. mag or similar other. Took a few decades for the military to finally realize that the 'lil m40 only filled a mid range niche and started with haste to add to the lineup.
Well that is certainly enough of an overview about that. And again I apologize for the hardly decipherable rant about "everything" earlier. However, please pick and choose words when bringing up opinions like this for a topic. It seems as though us folks that own and shoot and build sub top echelon weapon systems are thought to be doing so because we are either, ignorant, lazy, or too poor to go higher.
So was that literate enough SDWhirlwind?</div></div>
Dumb ass you are talking the M24, the M40A1 is a short action made by the precision weapons shop of the USMC and predates the long action M24. It is assembled by the USMC Armorers from components that were chosen or the mission.
Go take another painkiller. </div></div>
^^^
This X's 10!!!! You sir are not talking about the M40, and I will promise that every marine on this site wishes to beat the shit out of you right now. Luckily I'm Army!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bowstryder</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Okay, so I am illiterate eh? Yes my former rant was a bit on the extreme side. And I apologized for that, however, I shall again. I had a long day at work and was goosed up on painkillers due to a broken foot. Still sound of mind, yet the fingers wouldn't follow thought.
That being said, this thread is a lot of dick measuring. It's also a poor way to post a thought (the op) unless trying to incite some degree of arguments from.... well honestly, everyone.
I will always consider the m40 a fine rifle. However, Lowlight and others, you are wrong about it being the best of the best that was available. Yes the m21 was outdated and something needed to be done about a more precise sniping firearm, and many, both in house military, and private contractors brought their A game.
The final choice came down to a lucky shot from brigadier gen (I cannot for the life of me remember his name) after trying only two weapons and shooting the m40 prototype ONCE. Again, I am not saying that it is sub par for it's intended purpose. History has proven the complete opposite. But was it the best.... no. Why do you think it was based on a long action? The original prototype was not. Though it was adapted after long arguments from high ranking and field soldiers alike, complained about the lack of power from the 7.62 round. Hoping that the somewhat lethargic round would languish in a few short years and give way to the win. mag or similar other. Took a few decades for the military to finally realize that the 'lil m40 only filled a mid range niche and started with haste to add to the lineup.
Well that is certainly enough of an overview about that. And again I apologize for the hardly decipherable rant about "everything" earlier. However, please pick and choose words when bringing up opinions like this for a topic. It seems as though us folks that own and shoot and build sub top echelon weapon systems are thought to be doing so because we are either, ignorant, lazy, or too poor to go higher.
So was that literate enough SDWhirlwind?</div></div>
Dumb ass you are talking the M24, the M40A1 is a short action made by the precision weapons shop of the USMC and predates the long action M24. It is assembled by the USMC Armorers from components that were chosen or the mission.
Go take another painkiller. </div></div>
^^^
This X's 10!!!! You sir are not talking about the M40, and I will promise that every marine on this site wishes to beat the shit out of you right now. Luckily I'm Army!
Re: The word "Budget"...
....and yet the intelligent and literate comments continue. Guess if you couldn't comprehend the original post then my trying to make it easier isn't working either. The newbies need another relevant post of 'education' for us old members? Starting to feel good about my IQ,...and I didn't think it nothing to brag about prior to these posts!
Must be a shit load of Vicoden suckers, glad I quit! I give up!!!
....and yet the intelligent and literate comments continue. Guess if you couldn't comprehend the original post then my trying to make it easier isn't working either. The newbies need another relevant post of 'education' for us old members? Starting to feel good about my IQ,...and I didn't think it nothing to brag about prior to these posts!
Must be a shit load of Vicoden suckers, glad I quit! I give up!!!
Re: The word "Budget"...
LOL
This thread was designed as encouragement, not discouragement. I'm shocked that anyone took it any other way than that.
Too bad some of you guys got yourselves all worked up over nothing and thanks to those who "GOT IT".
To the 16-year-old shooter. Very proud of and for you. Get your ass in the Marine Corps and discover what a rifle's true potential is.
And to all you wannabe's who had a name for me other than something respectful, go fuck yourselves.
You will be seeing a lot of me here so get used to it.
Enough Said
LOL
This thread was designed as encouragement, not discouragement. I'm shocked that anyone took it any other way than that.
Too bad some of you guys got yourselves all worked up over nothing and thanks to those who "GOT IT".
To the 16-year-old shooter. Very proud of and for you. Get your ass in the Marine Corps and discover what a rifle's true potential is.
And to all you wannabe's who had a name for me other than something respectful, go fuck yourselves.
You will be seeing a lot of me here so get used to it.
Enough Said
Re: The word "Budget"...
officially put in my place...... Though I think a slice of humble pie is more in order than another pill.
officially put in my place...... Though I think a slice of humble pie is more in order than another pill.
Re: The word "Budget"...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Enough Said</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You will be seeing a lot of me here so get used to it.
Enough Said</div></div> Looking forward to it. S/F.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Enough Said</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You will be seeing a lot of me here so get used to it.
Enough Said</div></div> Looking forward to it. S/F.
Re: The word "Budget"...
Wow, people are getting their feelings hurt over this?
I'm 17, I worked my butt off so I could get a Remmy 700 in 308. I had a Super Sniper scope laying around, so I had that on there for a while, but I budgeted with my Taco Bell budget so I could afford better.
I saved my money for about 2 months so I could get a better scope, a Vortex PST.
The point is, not buying useless crap that will not help you as a shooter, and putting your money, wisely, to the most important pieces of the rifle.
The point is, I bought the best I could afford. Is it the best setup out there? Heck no! Am I happy with it? You bet I am.
Wow, people are getting their feelings hurt over this?
I'm 17, I worked my butt off so I could get a Remmy 700 in 308. I had a Super Sniper scope laying around, so I had that on there for a while, but I budgeted with my Taco Bell budget so I could afford better.
I saved my money for about 2 months so I could get a better scope, a Vortex PST.
The point is, not buying useless crap that will not help you as a shooter, and putting your money, wisely, to the most important pieces of the rifle.
The point is, I bought the best I could afford. Is it the best setup out there? Heck no! Am I happy with it? You bet I am.
Re: The word "Budget"...
I can't agree with that at all.
My first 'LR' rig started out as a 243 ADL that was sitting in the safe. Older bro killed a few mulies, a few elk, and a bunch of speed goats with it. I got into shooting and handloading, and decided to mess with it. Got a new takeoff 243 tube, had it put on, action trued, and all that for a great price from a smith willing to help me out. I got one of those cheap ass Weaver 20 MOA bases, stuck on Burris Sig rings, and mounted up a Leupy 3.5-10 tactical. Shoots in the .3's with 87 VMAXes, and around 4-5" at 600 yards. I'm no expert by any means on any of this, but I'm into this little rig for well under 1k, and it shoots very well. It's been a blast to learn on and phuck around with.
I can't agree with that at all.
My first 'LR' rig started out as a 243 ADL that was sitting in the safe. Older bro killed a few mulies, a few elk, and a bunch of speed goats with it. I got into shooting and handloading, and decided to mess with it. Got a new takeoff 243 tube, had it put on, action trued, and all that for a great price from a smith willing to help me out. I got one of those cheap ass Weaver 20 MOA bases, stuck on Burris Sig rings, and mounted up a Leupy 3.5-10 tactical. Shoots in the .3's with 87 VMAXes, and around 4-5" at 600 yards. I'm no expert by any means on any of this, but I'm into this little rig for well under 1k, and it shoots very well. It's been a blast to learn on and phuck around with.
Re: The word "Budget"...
guys like this make it difficult to feel welcomed on this board at all. . . thanks for the encouragement, I'll go pretend with my budget gun. . . ENOUGH SAID
guys like this make it difficult to feel welcomed on this board at all. . . thanks for the encouragement, I'll go pretend with my budget gun. . . ENOUGH SAID
Re: The word "Budget"...
no no no, i'm pretty sure the marines had the best damn skin flutes available at the time, not cause they were from the lowest bidder, they made them inhouse and they worked and worked on those things, practicing and pracicing on them, day in and day out they played those skin flutes till they were the best, a title they hold till this very day
no no no, i'm pretty sure the marines had the best damn skin flutes available at the time, not cause they were from the lowest bidder, they made them inhouse and they worked and worked on those things, practicing and pracicing on them, day in and day out they played those skin flutes till they were the best, a title they hold till this very day
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