Thoughts on a .338-06?

[dareposte]

I have an old Savage 110 30-06 that I don't really use, prefering my more accurate .308's over it.

I got to looking around today and figured out I could rebarrel it to a .338-06 for basically the price of a barrel.

Any thoughts on it? My impressions are that its maybe a bit slow but the ballistics tables seem to indicate it could be a decent 1200yd gun with the right loads.

From what I've seen it could potentially shoot a 250gr SMK at about 2400 fps, and get to 1000 yds with 1350fps left in it, going subsonic somewhere around 1200-1250.

 

[GCMxVeGeTa]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

Should shoot good (it is a Savage), but I wonder if the heavier bullets will cause pressure issues? And does the barrel have the right twist for those rounds?

 

[BobinNC]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

drepost,

You can do better than 2400 fps with a 250 grain bullet, in a 338-06. 2550 fps is do able at sane pressures like 60-62k psi. You can safely run this one up to 270 win pressures which is 65k psi, since you are using a modern and well constructed rifle.

However, a 1200 yd gun, for what purpose? You ditched the 06 Savage for more accurate 308's. A 338-06 barrel won't magically give you accuracy, and 1200 yds is a pretty fair poke.

 

[dareposte]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

Good point on the barrel twist issue, I checked just now and it would be a 1/10 twist which should be suitable for 250gr.

Here's the barrel I'm looking at:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=631476

 

[asbestosglove]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

Where the .338-06 really shines is on the hunt. It is the modern version of the .333 OKH that Elmer Keith used to take all manner of game. Hits really hard and easier on the shoulder than the .338 Win. I have often thought of trying one on my M70 and plan to when its 30-06 tube quits shooting. That may never happen, though, as all my rounds are out of target .308's. I have, in effect, gone down the same road as the op. AG in NC

 

[dareposte]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

Bob,

The 2400 ft/s was from looking at Hodgdon's reloading charts.

The story is the 30-06 was my first good rifle, and I hunted with it for years. Its a standard sporter barreled Savage, pretty accurate. Then I got into precision shooting and built up a pair of 700's that are tack drivers out to about 800 yds. I'm so familiar with them now that I hunt with them anyway just because I know I could make a shot easily.

I haven't gotten to shoot beyond 800 much, but am planning on it this summer. I'm worried the .308 might not do so well out a bit further, but I've really got an itch to try out 1000+.

I don't think the Savage is suitable as-is for longer range shooting since its a shorter and lightweight barrel. I think it's a 22''.

Now 2550 is very respectable for a 250gr .338, if thats really attainable I'll definitely rebarrel and try it.

 

[18Echo]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

Excellent caliber for hunting, and will anchor anything on the continent with the right bullet selection. I'm building one now on a Win 70 Classic receiver and a Brux #5 fluted barrel to finish at 24 inches. Waiting on my williams bottom metal.....AGAIN!!!

 

[dareposte]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
..
However, a 1200 yd gun, for what purpose?
</div></div>

The purpose is target shooting. It would be very nice to take advantage of the .338 cal 300gr's 0.768 ballistic coefficient

But I haven't seen any load data for a 300gr in .338-06, so it may not be suitable or advisable. The .338 250gr still has a 0.608, which is great compared to 0.465 of my 308 loads.

 

[dntfxr]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

The .338-06 has a similar bore/case ratio to the .308win, and we all know how hard it is to make a .308 shoot decent.

I think it would make a great and versatile round, I've been kicking the idea around as well.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dareposte</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BobinNC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
..
However, a 1200 yd gun, for what purpose?
</div></div>

The purpose is target shooting. It would be very nice to take advantage of the .338 cal 300gr's 0.768 ballistic coefficient

But I haven't seen any load data for a 300gr in .338-06, so it may not be suitable or advisable. The .338 250gr still has a 0.608, which is great compared to 0.465 of my 308 loads. </div></div>

dareposte,

No it's a great cartridge, and you are on the right track. It's hard when you first see a post, and yardages get thrown about like confetti, and you wonder is this guy serious, and does he know what he's about.

However, it appears that you do, and have a solid plan to get there. I have a bunch of load and chrony data, back when I had a 338-06, and I know I have some data for the 338-06 A-Square, from A-Square, that I think has 300 grain data in it.

Let me look and I'll PM you.



Thanks,

Bob

 

[dareposte]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

Thanks Bob, both for the vote of confidence and the data.

Based on muzzle energy, a 250gr at 2550 ft/s would be about 3600 ft-lbs. To match that energy with a 300 gr. would be down around 2325 ft/s. Realistically maybe closer to 2300 would be safely achievable.

At those numbers, it looks like basically a wash for downrange performance at 1200 yds, with wind favoring the 300gr and bullet drop favoring the 250gr.

Here's the data from my ballistics calculator:

.338-06, 300gr SMK, 2300fps at the muzzle
1200yds: 53.6 MOA elev, 1250ft/s, 103" of wind drift

.338-06: 250gr SMK, 2550fps at the muzzle
1200 yds: 48.7 MOA elev, 1200ft/s, 121" of wind drift

And for comparison, the .300 Win-Mag
.300 Win Mag: 220gr SMK, 2800fps at the muzzle
1200 yds: 38.8 MOA elev, 1350ft/s, 102" of wind drift

I know the 338-06 isn't a magnum cartridge, just threw in the Win-Mag for comparison. Kind of a gold standard a lot of ppl are familiar with.

I'd be real curious to see some real world .338-06 300gr velocities from anybody who has them, Google didn't turn any up for me.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

darepost,

Sent you my data via PM. No 300 grain dope in my archives, sorry, but I did have real dope on the 275 gr Speer.

Bob

 

[dareposte]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

Thanks for the data, Bob, and sharing your experience.

I went ahead and ordered the barrel and dies, we'll see how it works out here in a couple weeks.

 

[biodegraded]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

I've been tempted for several years to "do something" in 338-06. But my ideas were about a "guide gun" type concept. It never occurred to me to think about a target gun with it. But after you put out the numbers - why, it seems quite reasonable. Please keep us updated as you work this project. There appear to be at least a few of us interested in it.

 

[patriotoutlaw]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

That is the exact future for my old Savage 110 in .30-06. The fact that theres a little bit of both Elmer and Art Alpin in- vovled in that cartridge design was enogh nostalgia to throw me over the top on it. Shilen will be my barrel of choice though..Congratulations.

 

[dareposte]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

My 308 has a Shilen on it right now, they make great barrels.

I've never tried an A&B barrel before, but one's in the mail right now with my name on it. Hope it doesn't disappoint..

 

[dareposte]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

So here's the build, for anybody interested.

Donor action: Savage 110, old style staggered feed detachable magazine.
338-06 barrel: A&B 338-06, 24" ($145 from Midway)
Stock: Bell & Carlson DuraMaxx
Scope: TBD, probably something in the 6-24x50mm range
Brass: Winchester 30-06 upsized to 338-06
Initial Loading: 225gr Hornady SST over IMR4064, worked up to ~2700 fps

I was really wanting to use some of the 300gr SMKs, and may still try them out if the rifle seems capable of really pushing some distance. The SST's are fairly inexpensive, and will achieve my goal of 1200 yards if the rifle is up to the task. They also should shoot a bit flatter than the 300gr SMKs out to 1200 yards, and stay supersonic at that range.

The stock and action don't really match up.. the donor action is an old style detachable magazine, but the stock is for old style blind magazines. I'll either have to find a way to adapt it, or just run it single-shot for a while.

Ballistics ---
Using the 225gr SST's, and assuming I can get 2700 fps out of them, the expected ballistics are shown here.

400 yds | 2048fps, 7.3 MOA, 2094 ft-lbf
800 yds | 1505fps, 23.5 MOA, 1130 ft-lbf
1000 yds| 1289fps, 34.75 MOA, 831 ft-lbf
1200 yds| 1130fps, 49 MOA, 635 ft-lbf

The load will be borderline supersonic at 1200 yds, Mach 1 is about 1125fps for reference.

 

[biodegraded]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

How tough do you think it will be to get 2700 fps out of a 24" tube? Do you have a powder or two picked out yet?

 

[dareposte]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

I think it's feasible, but not a definite. My Speer #13 manual has load data for the .338-06, and with IMR4350 it claims a max load of 2655 fps. Their test rifle was a 23" barrel. With the rule of thumb of 50fps per inch of barrel, that would put it close.

Also the loads in #13 are for a max pressure of 53,000 cup. From reading, my understanding is that this cartridge can be pushed harder than that in a modern action if it's worked up carefully. The limiting factor for a lot of the powders seems to be case capacity and not pressure.

I plan to start out with some IMR-4350 and IMR-4064, since I have a lot of both of those on hand already. If they don't get me there I'll try to find some RL-19 or N160.

Getting to 2700fps will probably wind up depending on the barrel and how "fast" it shoots.

Bob was kind enough to share his load experiences with me, and he was able to get about 2650 out of a 250gr bullet using RL-19.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

I think it's a good direction, but for practical reasons, I'd venture just a tad further down that lane and settle on the .35 Whelen.

Better established, more decisive, and easier to provide with fodder. If more than the .30-'06 is needed, then go for the whole hog.

Greg

 

[dontstrokeme]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

If you want to run a L/A 338 I would run the 338 Scovill. There is not very much data around online as I have googled it regurlarly and not much ever pops up. BUt the Barnes book lists data for it and note that if you have a 338-06 you can ream the chamber and gain up to 150FPS. I belive that it is basicly an Ackleyed version of the 338-06.

Barnes listed 24" barrel getting around 2600FPS with non coated 225gr solids, and to me that would be worth playing with some 300gr SMK's to see how they fell way out long. They list IMR4064, Varget, RL15 and other quicker powders but I could only dream what RL17 would be doing in the 338 Scovill.

That is what I would do if I was going to build a 338 L/A.

 

[dareposte]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think it's a good direction, but for practical reasons, I'd venture just a tad further down that lane and settle on the .35 Whelen.

Better established, more decisive, and easier to provide with fodder. If more than the .30-'06 is needed, then go for the whole hog.

Greg </div></div>

I was initially drawn to .338 because of the good ballistics coefficients of the available projectiles (the 300gr SMK has a BC of 0.768). I don't plan to use this rifle for hunting, so the issue isn't really the downrange energy for me so much as trying something a little different.

A cursory search of the .358 projectiles didn't reveal much available over .450 BC, and the cost seems about the same as the .338 projectiles.

For me, I think the 338-06 is a good starting point for what I want to do. I already had a rifle in 30-06 to donate, a boatload of brass that can be necked up, and the gauges required to headspace the new barrel. It's a fun project for now and I'm hoping to get some practice at 1200 yards with it.

I'm watching the local pawn shops for a .338 Win Mag, as I'm also developing an interest in the .338 Edge or RUM. The WinMag can be rebarreled to either of those (or shot as is) to get a little more out of the 300gr's than the 338-06 can offer.

 

[dareposte]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dontstrokeme</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you want to run a L/A 338 I would run the 338 Scovill. There is not very much data around online as I have googled it regurlarly and not much ever pops up. BUt the Barnes book lists data for it and note that if you have a 338-06 you can ream the chamber and gain up to 150FPS. I belive that it is basicly an Ackleyed version of the 338-06.

Barnes listed 24" barrel getting around 2600FPS with non coated 225gr solids, and to me that would be worth playing with some 300gr SMK's to see how they fell way out long. They list IMR4064, Varget, RL15 and other quicker powders but I could only dream what RL17 would be doing in the 338 Scovill.

That is what I would do if I was going to build a 338 L/A. </div></div>

I'm familiar with the 338-06 Ackley, hadn't heard about the Scoville though. I'll look into it. If I get bored or feel limited by the 338-06 my plan is to pick up a used 338 Win mag and start tinkering with it, the magnum cases really have a lot to offer for 338 velocity. I shoot quite a bit though, so its appealing to get more than a few thousand rounds of barrel life, and the 338-06 should be similar to the 308 in that regard.

Is the Barnes info (2600fps, 225gr) for the Scoville cartridge or the regular 338-06? I've come across quite a bit of data for the 338-06 that shows velocities higher near 2650-2700 for 225gr projectiles. I don't have a Barnes manual to check it though.

 

[dareposte]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

Got the barrel and barrel nut wrench in the mail today.

Any suggestions or tips for getting a savage barrel loose? This will be my first Savage barrel swap.

I'll post some pics when it's done.

 

[lanwickum]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

Had a 338-06 weatherby, I believe it was an A-Square. It seemed to be a 300 yard gun with facroty loads. Starts to drop off pretty bad after that. I didn't shoot mine much, not even 20rnds. This one shoot horribly. I didn't even try to load for it. 4-6" groups at 100yards. Traded it. I decided then the 338-06 isn't worth it for me, would be better to go magnum if doing it again.

Hope yours shoots much better. Seemed like a fun gun to have before that one spoiled it for me.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

darepost,

I have the Barnes manual #4. The 338 Scovill is just an improved 338-06.

However, the velocities listed for the 338-06, in the Barnes manual are mostly higher than for the Scovill.

Per Barnes, MAX Loads, for 225 grain bullets:

338-06 RL 15 51.5 grains 2592 FPS
338 Scovill RL-15 55.5 2615 FPS

338-06 H414 61.5 Grains 2699 FPS
338-06 Scovill H414 not tested

The problem with Barnes, and most manuals, where the 338-06 is concerned, is that they use the same powders best suited to the 35 Whelen, in the 338-06.

But the 338-06 has a higher expansion ratio than the 35 Whelen, so slower powders, like those used for the 30-06, will also work for the 338-06.

The highest velocities I have ever recorded, and also seen printed for the 30-06, were delivered with N-204 and Norma MRP. Like wise, the highest velocities I got with my 338-06 were with RL-19 and RL-22.

I used load data developed with N-204 and MRP, for the 338-06, using RL-19 and RL-22, and working up from below, I came up with near identical loads, at near identical charges (+or- 1 grain), with near identical velocities.

What most folks don't know is, Alliant RL-19, and RL-22, are mostly the same formulations as N-204 and MRP, just a different name.

As a guide, if you have older load data that lists N-203 (RL-15), N-204 (RL-19) or Norma MRP (RL-22), you can safely use the newer powders, as long as you work up to MAX charges from well below.

Bob

 

[biodegraded]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

Bob, I was wondering about slower powders. How long was the barrel of your 338-06? I'm more familiar with Hodgdon powders and was thinking H4831sc or even H1000 might be viable, but I keep thinking a longer barrel (than 24") would be needed to get the most out of them.

 

[dareposte]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

Got the barrel on the gun, it was my first time rebarreling a Savage action. It was surprisingly easy and I managed to not tear anything up. The only difficult part was deciding on how tight to make the headspacing. I opted for somewhere between "really hard to close the bolt on a new cartridge" and "sort of hard to close the bolt on a new cartridge".

It surprisingly all fit back into the OEM Savage tupperware, though it's not free floated as well as the old thin barrel was. The detachable mag does look like it will hold the 338-06 rounds.

I should be able to get some initial range results on Wednesday, until then here's a picture of the progress.

 

[BobinNC]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: biodegraded</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bob, I was wondering about slower powders. How long was the barrel of your 338-06? I'm more familiar with Hodgdon powders and was thinking H4831sc or even H1000 might be viable, but I keep thinking a longer barrel (than 24") would be needed to get the most out of them. </div></div>

biograded,

Mine was 26" built on a Ruger #1A Action. H1000 was way too slow, and I never tried H4831. But H414 seems to produce some excellent velocities, however. I got my highest, 210 and 250 gr velocities with RL-19.

Best accuracy with 250 gr bullets was with RL-22, but it was 80 FPS slower than RL-19.

With a 275 gr bullet, my highest velocity was with RL-22.

Bob

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Thoughts on a .338-06?

I agree, the .358 bullets tend not to have stratospheric BC values. My thinking is more about downrange energy than about drop. I honestly haven't done the numbers, and my thinking suggests that the .35 Whelen might have an edge in that, but then, I was thinking in terms of hunting, too.

IMHO, my most preferred .30-'06 rechamberings would be .280 Rem and .35 Whelen. Were I building a 1Kyd and beyond target gun, the .280 would be my definite choice. Coupling the 7mm projos with the '06 chamber cpabacity seems to me to be the most efficient approach. Going to 6.5 would be, for me, going a tad too much toward an overbore condition.

Greg

 

[dareposte]

New stock on.

I put the new stock on today. I was pretty worried about getting the detachable magazine model to fit into the blind magazine stock, but it was a non-issue. I just popped the floorplate off and threw it away, clipped the magazine into the action, and it dropped right in.

I also dug out my old Nikon scope and put it on. Nothing fancy, but it holds zero and should be good for testing it with. I didn't have any Savage long action 30mm rings.

The only thing I'm lacking is the bullets, I've got 100 pieces of brass just waiting for them to arrive.

 

[dareposte]

Re: 338-06 project

I got some bullets in the mail today, and loaded up several for the range after work tomorrow.

I'm trying what I have on hand for powder, IMR-4350, over 225gr Hornady SST's for the initial testing.

I have some 300gr SMK's that I loaded too, but I'm not sure if they'll work that well for this small of a case. The 300gr's are L-O-N-G bullets... I don't mind a little compression on my loads but with the 300gr's I think any load over minimum values might be very compressed just to fit it in the chamber.

As it is now, with IMR4350, the "max" loads listed in the manuals are akin to filling the case with powder and cramming a bullet on top. The sierra manual says 62gr of 4350 should be a max, but 59gr was already compressed slightly. I stopped at 59.5 and may not even shoot those depending on how the work-up goes with pressure signs.

When the 4350 is gone I'll try out some RL-19, it seems like that is perhaps the powder of choice for the 338-06. Bob - how was the case capacity using RL-19?

Chrono data tomorrow.

 

[dareposte]

Re: 338-06 project

Here's a picture of just how long the 300gr SMK's are.

On top is a fairly typical 225gr .338 cal bullet, a Hornady SST.

Below is the 300gr SMK. The smallest overall length I could get with the SMK is 3.500", even with starting powder charges.

 

[biodegraded]

Re: 338-06 project

I would expect some people have already tried what you're doing. Perhaps there's a chamber reamer around that puts in an appropriately long throat for the 300SMKs. Since you have a Savage it'd be trivial to remove the barrel to send off for reaming.

 

[dareposte]

Re: 338-06 project

I went to the 100yd range today and got some pretty good results with the 338-06.

I worked up to 2600 ft/s with the 225gr Hornadys, and got to 2300 ft/s with the 300gr SMK's.

Neither load showed any pressure signs, but I think that's all I can get out of the IMR-4350 that I'm using. The cases are borderline compressed charges. With a less bulky powder I think it would be possible to get more velocity, especially out of the 225gr. It looks like 2700 ft/s would be very possible.

The rifle shot pretty well, logging a couple of 1" groups but most around 1.25". I expect it to settle down a bit once the barrel breaks in and the load is tuned.

Overall I was pleased with the 300 gr SMK's performance, 2300 ft/s with this bullet will stay supersonic out to 1400 yards. My goal of getting to 1200 yds with it could be done with about 54MOA of elevation. 1000 yds with 40.5 MOA, similar to 308 Win.

 

[Red Mule]

Re: 338-06 project

I have been shooting a .338-06 since 1987. I rebarreled a Rem 700 Classic to .338-06 AI to use elk hunting. I have not really used it for long range, but I have taken a couple of elk and mule deer at over 300 yards. No issues with accuracy or knock down power.

My rifle has a Shilen barrel that was finished at 24".

I have had very good success with the following loads:

New unfired Winchester 30-06 brass fire formed with 47 gr IMR 3031 with a 200 gr Speer or Hornady bullet, Rem 9 1/2 or CCI 200 primers.

Nosler 210 grain Partition
Win 30-06 brass fire formed, trim to 2.485
Rem 9 1/2 primer
57.0 grains IMR 4320
MV of 2804 fps @ 12'
SD 11.7
Accuracy is generally about 1-1.25" for 5 shots @ 100 yds

Sierra 215 grain GameKing
Win 30-06 brass fire formed, trim to 2.485
Rem 9/12 primer
55.5 grains IMR 4320
MV of 2743 fps @ 12'
SD 12.4
Have shot many 5 shot groups of less than 1" @ 100 yeds

Sierra 250 grain GameKing
Win 30-06 brass fire formed, trim to 2.485
Rem 9 1/2 primer
56.0 grains IMR 4350
MV of 2452 fps @ 12'
SD 9.0
Very accurate load in my rifle but recoil is heavy

These loads are all safe in my rifle and I have not been tempted to push them any faster. I built this rifle to hunt with and these the job. I have used the Nosler and 250 Sierra on elk and both did just fine. I have used the 215 Sierra on mule deer and feral hogs with great results.

I may have to go get a box of 250 SMK and see what I can do at distance.

 

[dareposte]

Re: 338-06 project

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Red Mule</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I may have to go get a box of 250 SMK and see what I can do at distance. </div></div>

Hornady makes a 250gr match bullet that has a substantially better ballistic coefficient than the 250gr SMKs. You might check that out, I know I'm going to be.

 

[dontstrokeme]

Re: 338-06 project

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: dareposte</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Overall I was pleased with the 300 gr SMK's performance, 2300 ft/s with this bullet will stay supersonic out to 1400 yards. My goal of getting to 1200 yds with it could be done with about 54MOA of elevation. 1000 yds with 40.5 MOA, similar to 308 Win.





</div></div>


Not sure I read that all right....bit bugeyed now....spend a few hours on the Hide looking at all myh old favorites they might be blending now!!!


But I have been long pondering a 338 Scovill ever since I got the Barnes book....but did other projects instead...about the last 5 years and I haven't looked at the 300SMK data because it was never out there...but did all that fooling around and extra cost involved shooting the 300SMK duplicate 308Win in all aspects? Or does your chart list the energy delivered as distance increases? Like drops the same amount but delivers twice the energy?

Did you just build a reverse trainer for the 308Win?

 

[bignada]

Re: 338-06 project

Anyone shoot the 250gr Hornady BTHP from their .338-06 yet?

 

[Big_Daddy]

Re: 338-06 project

I have always been interested in the .338-06 myself. I read an article a few years ago and they were shooting some type of ballistic glass with assorted rifles, may have been some type of cockpit glass. At any rate, the other rifles they were using didn't do nearly as well at busting through the glass to the media behind it. The .338-06 punched through the glass and had plenty of left over energy. Not scientific but it sure piqued my curiosity

 

[Alaska]

I have used the 338-06 for many years

For elk and deer the 210gr Nosler Part is excellent
For bears and moose I use the 225 gr Barnes XLC

I have used IMR 4320 for many years but switched to Reloader 17.
I get a tad more Vel and accuracy with this load

225gr Barnes XLC
Reloader 17 @ 61.0
WW cases with WLRM mag primers
Rifle Weatherby UL 24"
2700 FPS

I do not recommend 250gr bullets in the 338-06 it just takes up to much of the case. with a good bonded or all copper bullets like Barnes or Noslers AB its enough