Throwing a little shade at some high end ARs

[DairyDictator]

This thread is what I would think an AI vs Savage thread would look like on arfcom.

There's an ongoing thread on here trying to compare a ZCO to a Bushnell XRS3 so plenty of that shit to go around

 

[ut755ln]

A few things:

- Claims of sub MOA on a carbine are fine, but no one gives a shit. Why? Because its a fucking carbine, not an Barrett MRAD. The vast majority of shots in combat will be at distances <100 yards, and anything over 150ish is suppressive fire anyways. Very very rarely is someone sitting there trying to shoot at someone accurately at 500m with a fucking 11.5 carbine or any carbine in general. There's also a whole terminal ballistics argument to have here too, but we'll go around that today.

- The largest cause of failures and stoppages are magazines and ammo. If you remove these with non shit magazines that are marked and rotated as well as known ammo that your gun is made for, you basically negate this altogether.

- The largest cause of stoppages that are not able to be remedied quickly by an IAD are a firing pin failure, or failure of a wear part on the BCG.

.

In another thread, my son is saying that they are 1 to 1.5 MOA on their duty carbines and that when they are carrying them it is 100% because they are expecting CQB and that they don't anticipate engaging targets out past 200 which is why most of them use a holo or red dot.

When they do loadouts, all of the magazines are marked as having been used and that they functioned without feeding errors. He says the majority of their loadouts are 77 black hills and sometimes green tips.

Part of their kit is an extra BCG, not sure if they carry a firing pin (I doubt it).

 

[TheGerman]

In another thread, my son is saying that they are 1 to 1.5 MOA on their duty carbines and that when they are carrying them it is 100% because they are expecting CQB and that they don't anticipate engaging targets out past 200 which is why most of them use a holo or red dot.

When they do loadouts, all of the magazines are marked as having been used and that they functioned without feeding errors. He says the majority of their loadouts are 77 black hills and sometimes green tips.

Part of their kit is an extra BCG, not sure if they carry a firing pin (I doubt it).

The accuracy part of a carbine is also grossly misunderstood. Looking at it from a .mil standpoint, if I remember right, the spec for M855/M193 to be acceptable was something like a 3 inch group at 100 yards. So that's where people freak out about how inaccurate their carbine is or carbines in general are, or how X carbines' barrels suck, etc. Technically, it may not be the gun. Then there's the whole accuracy/velocity/terminal ballistics rotating argument.

If they have a BCG, it has a pin in it, so I guess they could pull it but just easier to put the new BCG in on that level of stoppage. I always (still do) carried a plastic bag with 2-3 firing pins in it, a tiny vial of oil, few patches, broken off toothbrush and a broken shell extractor in an admin pouch/pocket on my carrier.

 

[ArchibaldShoebuckle275]

@RUTGERS95 i did go that route, earlier today ordered my last parts and bought some tools

 

[dms416]

There was a claim some time ago by the late Jim Schatz that HK drilled EVERY 416 gas port in the grooves of the rifling...

Here's a lovely example that is in line with that claim...

And here's a nice pic of the beautiful chrome lining (not that it makes any difference, it's just quality work)

However, here's an older 416 that I was using pretty regularly (AF or AG date code). Whoops...looks like they don't always hit the groove.

And here's a stellar example of a different "high-end", highly praised, never-in-stock mfg where there were claims they also tried follow HK's model... Not only did they fail to hit the groove but they left some damn big burrs to get worn down there.

I like high-end stuff as much as the next guy, but sometimes you ain't getting what they tell you you're buying.

 

[MontanaMan]

There was a claim some time ago by the late Jim Schatz that HK drilled EVERY 416 gas port in the grooves of the rifling...

Here's a lovely example that is in line with that claim...

And here's a nice pic of the beautiful chrome lining (not that it makes any difference, it's just quality work)

However, here's an older 416 that I was using pretty regularly (AF or AG date code). Whoops...looks like they don't always hit the groove.

And here's a stellar example of a different "high-end", highly praised, never-in-stock mfg where there were claims they also tried follow HK's model... Not only did they fail to hit the groove but they left some damn big burrs to get worn down there.

I like high-end stuff as much as the next guy, but sometimes you ain't getting what they tell you you're buying.

That's the chrome plating on the bore that is badly chipped & flaked in the last photo.

I don't know what their drilling procedure is & I don't know if it's different for a CL barrel vs an SS barrel, but any kind of "machining" with a cutting tool or a drill on chrome almost always chips it to some degree, especially if the adhesion to the base material is less than great.

Grinding is a huge improvement, but I don't know that anyone is using a stone for that function on a barrel gas port.

MM

 

[Mike_Honcho]

There was a claim some time ago by the late Jim Schatz that HK drilled EVERY 416 gas port in the grooves of the rifling...

Here's a lovely example that is in line with that claim...

And here's a nice pic of the beautiful chrome lining (not that it makes any difference, it's just quality work)

However, here's an older 416 that I was using pretty regularly (AF or AG date code). Whoops...looks like they don't always hit the groove.

And here's a stellar example of a different "high-end", highly praised, never-in-stock mfg where there were claims they also tried follow HK's model... Not only did they fail to hit the groove but they left some damn big burrs to get worn down there.

I like high-end stuff as much as the next guy, but sometimes you ain't getting what they tell you you're buying.

Did they go bang?
Did they shoot roughly MOA w/ 77's?

If so, what does this matter?

 

[msgriff]

That's the chrome plating on the bore that is badly chipped & flaked in the last photo.

I don't know what their drilling procedure is & I don't know if it's different for a CL barrel vs an SS barrel, but any kind of "machining" with a cutting tool or a drill on chrome almost always chips it to some degree, especially if the adhesion to the base material is less than great.

Grinding is a huge improvement, but I don't know that anyone is using a stone for that function on a barrel gas port.

MM

Some (few) use a inside deburring tool like this:

 

[dms416]

Did they go bang?
Did they shoot roughly MOA w/ 77's?

If so, what does this matter?

Actually no but that’s not the point


Couldn’t tell ya on the last one. I had 2 to pick from and opted against that one.

No, the old 416 was maybe 1.25-1.5ish with mk262…
That pretty one pictured first was kind of a dog and only shot about 2 MOA at best. It was actually kind of a dog.

But hey, even that should be more than enough to justify expense, right? Never gonna shoot past 100y or need that accuracy anyways…per a few posts above.


I could really give a fuck about most of this stuff. Like the German I’ve made my line in the sand and carry on.

Just trying to make a point that some claim this “special voodoo”, extra TLC bullshit that sometimes just ain’t true or possibly doesn’t matter.