Shooting some hand loads for the first time. I will do more testing soon but in the meantime... One group is really small but the other group has hardly any vertical spread. I'm assuming that the small vertical spread is better specifically for long range and the fact that the side to side is probably me. Which load would you focus on?
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Tightest group or shortest vertical spread?
- Thread starter LRDaniel-San
- Start date
I would want to see a lot more groups from both loads to see if that was consistent. My guess is you load up 10 of each and will not see the same pattern.
Focus on less vertical spread IMO or shoot a few more groups if you have to in order to see if it was you or not.
**edit**
Precision underground beat me, shoot more and I think we will understand better if those initial results are repeatable/consistent or not.
**edit**
Precision underground beat me, shoot more and I think we will understand better if those initial results are repeatable/consistent or not.
I go by a rule of thumb,
3 into .3, 5 into .5, 10 into 1MOA.
If you toss out the flyer in a 3 shot group then maybe - - - - -
3 into .3, 5 into .5, 10 into 1MOA.
If you toss out the flyer in a 3 shot group then maybe - - - - -
need to see more groups and need more info to offer any kind of help here.
Did you aim at the same place with the same scope settings? If not that is a fairly large offset for a 100 yard group.
You could shoot dozens of groups, or shoot both of them at distance, 4-600 yards. Noise surfaces immediately at 500 yards.
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There is a pretty significant POI shift from load to load, especially with different weight bullets. It's repeatable.
OK that’s good news. But you shouldn’t be carrying much about the group size. It is important to note when the point of impact shift are taking place.
I’d pick the load that is in the middle charge of two other charges that group in the same place
Look up OCW test; it works super well especially when paired with an optical or LabRadar.
In my opinion it takes the best attributes of a long range ladder, pressure flatting and poi node shifts and pairs them into one test, without the wind and optical distances of the LR ladder.
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The only problem with this is if you're not shooting from a lead sled than shooter error trumps the load error...
Nobody in their right mind should be shooting from a lead sled.
It really is one of the worst devices made and I think it’s very misunderstood. Trying to stop the recoil from a high-powered rifle is not the answer
A lot of world record groups are shot from lead sleds, wtf was I thinking?
Locking the gun down, beats the gun and creates a shooting platform you can’t possibly duplicate in the field.
A benchrest, sandbags or bipod will allow the gun to recoil and will be not only more accurate, but you can closely match the recoil resistance level.
There’s some pretty interesting slow Mo video of some guys shooting in a lead sled
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load development at 100 yards on the clearest calmest day possible with a crono. If the vertical shift is minimal and es is small, its a good load. I usually load up and down in .2gr increments to find the middle of the node and signs of pressure. you can see plenty at 100yards if you are steady. Way to many outside factors from the load to be doing LD 4-600 yards.
No - I wasn't meaning the question for you... I should have phased it better.. I was asking if anyone could
ive had some weird shifts and flyers from a load that was a solid load and wanted to see what the load was doing at 500yds. As sacrilegious as you think a lead sled is, it takes shooter error out of the equation.
I have this same question. I'm not loading my own. Just not logistically in the cards for me right now. But, I've used Copper Creek Ammo to get a "custom" load. By the Copper Creek instructions, they say the "smallest group wins," basically. With their load testing packs, you get five rounds each of five different loads. They also recommend doing it at 200 - 400 yards.
So... obviously, the longer the distance, the more the environment (wind) will be a variable. Do most of you guys do load development at 100 yards? Or longer?
So, for example... Which of these two wins the day? (I don't have the chrono data for them.) Green? Or, Blue? This was Load Development Pack #1... so, it's five different powder loads.
Green - smaller group, more vertical spread. (Is it me, the shooter? Or, is it the velocities - ES?)
Blue - Larger group, smaller vertical spread. (Again... is it me causing the horizontal spread? The wind?)
Taking the external variables - shooter and wind - out of the equation is the challenge!
Thanks for your input! Love this forum!
So... obviously, the longer the distance, the more the environment (wind) will be a variable. Do most of you guys do load development at 100 yards? Or longer?
So, for example... Which of these two wins the day? (I don't have the chrono data for them.) Green? Or, Blue?
This was Load Development Pack #1... so, it's five different powder loads. Green - smaller group, more vertical spread. (Is it me, the shooter? Or, is it the velocities - ES?)
Blue - Larger group, smaller vertical spread. (Again... is it me causing the horizontal spread? The wind?)
Taking the external variables - shooter and wind - out of the equation is the challenge!
Thanks for your input! Love this forum!
IMO, blue wins, but needs some seat depth tweaking. If you were shooting well.I have this same question. I'm not loading my own. Just not logistically in the cards for me right now. But, I've used Copper Creek Ammo to get a "custom" load. By the Copper Creek instructions, they say the "smallest group wins," basically. With their load testing packs, you get five rounds each of five different loads. They also recommend doing it at 200 - 400 yards.
So... obviously, the longer the distance, the more the environment (wind) will be a variable. Do most of you guys do load development at 100 yards? Or longer?
So, for example... Which of these two wins the day? (I don't have the chrono data for them.) Green? Or, Blue?
Green - smaller group, more vertical spread. (Is it me, the shooter? Or, is it the velocities - ES?)
View attachment 7012071
Blue - Larger group, smaller vertical spread. (Again... is it me causing the horizontal spread? The wind?)
View attachment 7012072
Taking the external variables - shooter and wind - out of the equation is the challenge!
Thanks for your input! Love this forum!
EDIT: that much vertical at 200 with green would be disastrous a 1K, I myself could not shoot that style target at 100, nevertheless farther out. I like small dots(dot reticle), or drawing crosshairs with magic marker
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Lead-sleds are super poor choice and maybe the biggest scam in american shooting devices. They attempt to "stop" the reward movement.. The energy goes somewhere and it is often in a jumping and rising barrel..gun/action stress and new POI
A bench rest or sandbags etc.. allow the gun to move in a natural direction.
OK... So, with Copper Creek... LDP #1 is five different powder loads. You pick the "best" one and tell Copper Creek. Then they send you LDP #2, which is the powder load that was deemed best from LDP #1, in five different seating depths.
But, you say "Blue" wins. I picked Green. Hmmmm. OK.
So, they sent me LDP #2. Here are the results from that. I went with the "Black" seating depth (excluded the "flyer"). I also got some chrono data this time.
So, the final combo was "green (powder) - black (seating depth). Honestly, I don't think I really accomplished much, as there seems to be no real consistency. And, I blame myself for that. This was 7 months ago, so I'm a better shooter now. I wonder if I should start over with a new LDP #1?
Black... I ran the group analysis with and without the "Flyer."
Whattaya think? Sorry for hijacking this thread. Should I have started a new thread? Thanks for your help!
Well, green still the worst or close from added pics, Black stands out as the best, then purple and blue 3rd. I'm looking for minimal vertical dispersion.
The 2nd group of target pics is from LDP #2. They all are using the "Green" powder load from LDP #1. So, the 2nd group of target pics is LDP #2 with different seating depths. So, the different colors in LDP #2 are for different seating depths.
My final "recipe" was "green-black" (powder - seating depth).
My point is that if I chose the wrong powder load (Green) from LDP #1, the LDP #2 test is kind of "moot," eh?
That all said... I sent Josh of Copper Creek an email asking him if I chose the wrong powder load. He said, "no." He stood by the recommendation to pick the smallest overall group size (rather than the smallest vertical dispersion).
Thanks again for indulging this sort-of-a-noob's questions.
I do all mine at 500 yards, have a 24"x36" pc of steel I paint aim points on with templates. I myself won't shoot a load with more than 3/4" vertical at 500. Verify at 1K.
I honestly suck at shooting groups at 100 yards. if the load is good at 500, trust me, it carries back toward you, past, most of the time it holds.
I do ALL mine at 100; blending the OCW, chrono (the proper type) looking for flat spots and ES and spread. You can do it all at 100, then walk out and win matches.
Understanding what you’re looking for is key. All distance does is add in uncertainty.
If you can see the stable nodes at 100, see the velocity flat spots and achieve good SDs and ES, it will work at ELR distances (once BC and trans performance is vetted).
Load development groups below all off a bipod.
Just my 2cents.
Understanding what you’re looking for is key. All distance does is add in uncertainty.
If you can see the stable nodes at 100, see the velocity flat spots and achieve good SDs and ES, it will work at ELR distances (once BC and trans performance is vetted).
Load development groups below all off a bipod.
Just my 2cents.
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Sorry... somewhat of a newb here.. what is "bending the OCW?" And, what is the "proper type" of chrono? I'm using a MagetoSpeed, which is mounted on the rail / handguard (rather than on the barrel).
Looking at your groups... they're all one ragged hole, which is impressive. I don't seem to have that "problem," quite yet. But, if I did, I wouldn't really be able to compare groups (if they were all one ragged hole). I suppose it's not likely that all the loads would have such a result, eh?
Thanks!
Yes, you can compare groups as they move the poi. Maybe 3-5 charge weights will impact in the same area then move. You do not want to be in a charge weight on either side of the poi shift. If you do and your temp or load densities change, you end up with really large groups at longer ranges, even worse if your velocities are also jacked.
Look up Dan Newberry. But note that I am talking about also using several other methods at the same time that are velocity based to help the load development be more robust and use less rounds.
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Reading now... seeing what I can learn and adapt to using LDPs from Copper Creek, since I don't load my own. One thing that I think makes sense is to do the "round robin" approach to firing each load once at each target, then rotating back.
Thanks again.
It really is harder with factory or boutique loaders. I really missed that part.
I’d take your smallest 100 yard groups, then i’d use the lowest average SDs to override that decision.
Basically, if you can’t manage the load or node windows and if it comes out of the barrel in tiny groups, all things being equal they will be the best. But you need to override the group size if the SD was much better in a slightly larger near range group—- if you’re a long range shooter..
Distance shows the effects of velocity variance, where OCW at 100 (without the chronograph that acts like distance) shows the roll of harmonics.
OK... So, if I'm just shooting for small groups and a good SD, then still do it at 100 yards? Would there still be some advantage in using the "round robin" approach?
Not really an advantage to round robin, just keep the barrel at the same low relative temp. Use a fouler
Hijack away, man... this is some good reading. I can tell I'm totally going to obsess over load development.
There is an old saying that vertical is the load and horizontal is the shooter.
Thanks in advance for indulging my need to make sure I understand.
What you're suggesting is that I shoot for groups at 100 yards (while using a chrono... a rail-mounted magnetospeed in my case). Best group wins, BUT... if two groups are close, the one with the best SD / ES wins (even if it's the slightly larger group of the two).
Is that correct?
That’s how you’ll have to do it with factory loads, You just don’t have enough choices in between to look for point of impact shifts..Thanks in advance for indulging my need to make sure I understand.
What you're suggesting is that I shoot for groups at 100 yards (while using a chrono... a rail-mounted magnetospeed in my case). Best group wins, BUT... if two groups are close, the one with the best SD / ES wins (even if it's the slightly larger group of the two).
Is that correct?
Thanks in advance for indulging my need to make sure I understand.
What you're suggesting is that I shoot for groups at 100 yards (while using a chrono... a rail-mounted magnetospeed in my case). Best group wins, BUT... if two groups are close, the one with the best SD / ES wins (even if it's the slightly larger group of the two).
Is that correct?
in this case id take the faster load.
No
Take the best group your gun will shoot.
Chronograph error doesn't make up for big groups as distance is increased.
A barrel whips up and down for our purposes so the horizontal you posted was the shooter,conditions or seating depth related if the gun is correctly put together.
Vertical stringing doesn't go away with distance.
Take the best group your gun will shoot.
Chronograph error doesn't make up for big groups as distance is increased.
A barrel whips up and down for our purposes so the horizontal you posted was the shooter,conditions or seating depth related if the gun is correctly put together.
Vertical stringing doesn't go away with distance.
I wrote “I’d take your smallest 100 yard groups, then i’d use the lowest average SDs to override that decision.”
So if the groups at 100 are almost the same... right? And in you need a tie beaker (as the op was asking earlier), you are now suggesting take the smallest group of factory rounds that might have jacketed up velocity spreads over one that’s really buttoned down?
If one factory round group has a 25/SD 70ES and shoots 3/8” at 100 it is completely nuts to choose that over another almost identical Sub -1/2” load, that has single digit SDs and low ES people in this group.
If you as a benchrest guy can help me understand why I should choose the smaller 100 yard group with higher SDs for long range please do.
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What you’re missing as we suggested that between the skill level and wind he brings his testing into 100 yards. He has not shot at 100 yards.
I don’t care what size the group is and how much “shooter” he has in the groups. If the groups are nearly the same and he has difficulty in choosing, is the point. I’ve seen rounds with 100 ft./s variance shoot nice enough groups at 100 yards.. You have to weed out a factory round that has jacked up velocities.
And I certainly am not talking about group sizes that different greatly. I’m talking about a tiebreaker.
Remember he’s not reloading.
Edited to add that we might all be talking past each other. If I wasn’t looking for a tiebreaker between two groups I certainly would pick the smallest group. I think he needs to perform the test up close to make sure that his shooting is not influencing the group.
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I got it, you were bringing the 200 yrd numbers back to 100. I still say the only thing he has shot that stands a chance at distance is his 2nd pic, blue.
If he has 1" of vertical spread at 200, it'll be 3-4" at 500, 10" or more at 1K
