Range Report Time between cold bore shots??

[SuckitTrebek]

A good friend of mine is looking for some written literature in some sort of federal agencies manual or military snipers manual that has written rules regarding time to wait between cold bore shots.

The background is his cheap ass department has guys sharing long guns and they want to know if they (two different shooters) can do cold bore shots on the same day (within a reasonable amount of time) with the same rifle.

Yes we understand that the time will vary with different thickness barrels and such but I'm sure there is a general rule written in some agencies manuals. It would be great to have a link to where that is if online somewhere. If not online a specific place that I can refer him to.

 

[DP425]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

Cold bore is somewhat of a misnomer... it's not really the temp of the bore that is the question. It's a clean bore v. dirty bore. They can do cold bore shots pretty much all day long assuming they go through the full cleaning process.

 

[DP425]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

BTW, I am B4 qualified- I don't even recall reference to cold bore in the manual... but I can double check

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cold bore is somewhat of a misnomer... it's not really the temp of the bore that is the question. It's a clean bore v. dirty bore. They can do cold bore shots pretty much all day long assuming they go through the full cleaning process. </div></div>


Ummmmmm...........wrong.

A cold bore shot is just that. First shot for the rifle and shooter that day.

There's a difference between a cold bore shot and a clean bore shot and a clean cold bore shot, the last being the one with the most propensity for variation from point of aim from what the shooter is expecting.

 

[DP425]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Cold bore is somewhat of a misnomer... it's not really the temp of the bore that is the question. It's a clean bore v. dirty bore. They can do cold bore shots pretty much all day long assuming they go through the full cleaning process. </div></div>


Ummmmmm...........wrong.

A cold bore shot is just that. First shot for the rifle and shooter that day.

There's a difference between a cold bore shot and a clean bore shot and a clean cold bore shot, the last being the one with the most propensity for variation from point of aim from what the shooter is expecting. </div></div>

Yes, you are correct, however I've never seen a POI shift for a dirty bore cold shot between the first shot of the day and second, third or so on... Hence it being a bit of a misnomer. When people are talking cold bore, they are generally actually referring to a cold, clean shot.

That being said, the best way to practice for POI shift, and the most likely shift you'll see will be from a clean bore. My advise on this situation would be to run two shooters on one gun, one afternoon, stop for lunch, clean the bores and go again with your new shooter. Then you're getting a cold, clean bore.

If TRUE cold bore training is what's desired, You'd need to pick up some sort of thermometer to insert into the bore, from the chamber- don't go much beyond the throat since that's where the majority of the heat is held. Measure the temp prior to first shot and wait for it to drop back to close to the same (I doubt 10-20 degrees of bore temp, maybe even more will have any readable effect on POI)

I just checked my copy of FM 23-10 (the old manual, superseded about a year ago- the new manual is in my deployment box in a connex on a ship somewhere)... There is zero mention of training for POI shift for cold bore- I didn't think there was. Setting a standard time would be difficult if temp is your sole objective- you have so many things influencing how fast the bore will cool; bore diameter, caliber, wind speed, air temp, sun, barrel material, barrel thickness and profile... setting a definite number would be next to impossible without just imposing a blanket, LONG period of time that you can say for certain will cover all conditions. A situation like that does not seem to be practical for the situation at hand

 

[jrob300]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A cold bore shot is just that. First shot for the rifle <span style="font-weight: bold">and shooter</span> that day.</div></div>

Is this a definitive stipulation? Or does a shot where the bore has returned to ambient count as a cold bore shot also?

John

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

Most "agency" manuals do not adress them, because most agencies officially want all weapons to be deployed in a clean unfouled state (which most practical shooters would agree is not the wisest option).

If the bore is fouled, the cold bore POI shift usually has more to do with a "cold" trigger puller than a mechanical shift from barrel temp.

I think that the only difference I have ran into has come from inserting a room temp round into a hot chamber and letting it set for a longer period in the hot chamber than other rounds in a string of fire.


For YMT's specific question, I'd say letting the barrel cool to where it is at ambient temp would suffice, and that clean vs fouled would be a bigger variable between shooters.

 

[DP425]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I think that the only difference I have ran into has come from inserting a room temp round into a hot chamber and letting it set for a longer period in the hot chamber than other rounds in a string of fire. </div></div>

yup

 

[trilogymac]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

I did my variation of a cold bore shot test about 6 months ago on one of my rifles. Everyday for 5 days, I shot the same target, one shot per day. Turned a .625-.750 gun into a .980 gun.
Or... maybe it showed I am a .980 shooter

I think its a good confidence builder.

Something else that has been helpful is every time I go to the farm (usually once or twice a month) I shoot 3 rounds out of my hunting rifle and check for POI shift. Been doing that for a year. Similar concept.

Trilogymac

 

[jwoolf]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

There is a POI shift on a dirty bore gun from the first shot to the second.

My own rifle is very predictable in this.... always 1/2 min high, 1/2 minute to the left. Second round it out there too.... third round goes where the rest go.

Some may not believe it... it may not happen on tbeir rifle but, it does happen with most rifles if you're paying attention.

A cold clean bore, the first two shots are even further out.

 

[DP425]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: trilogymac</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I did my variation of a cold bore shot test about 6 months ago on one of my rifles. Everyday for 5 days, I shot the same target, one shot per day. Turned a .625-.750 gun into a .980 gun.
Or... maybe it showed I am a .980 shooter

I think its a good confidence builder.

Something else that has been helpful is every time I go to the farm (usually once or twice a month) I shoot 3 rounds out of my hunting rifle and check for POI shift. Been doing that for a year. Similar concept.

Trilogymac </div></div>

Don't take this the wrong way, but I would believe that is shooter error. Cold bore (again, which I've never actually seen a shift on) or clean bore should have a consistent and predictable shift. In other words, it will shoot to the same POI every time (assuming all conditions are the same). So if you do a test as you did, your grouping should be what you can consider the "norm" for your gun, but a certain amount off.

Does that make sense?

Anyway, by the simple fact that you're seeing a shift, and it's a group opening up- I'd be inclined to believe its just first shot "jitters" per-say.

 

[jwoolf]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

What would make you think that a cold bore would have no affect on a POI?

The term didn't come from nowhere. On my own rifle, if you're not capable of shooting better than moa groups, you won't notice it but, my own rifle consistantly shoots .25 to .3" groups and, the first two rounds, even out of a dirty bore fly outside the group... predictably and consistantly.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

Here on the we have explored this in great details and the primary wisdom is, the cold bore shift is shooter induced and here is why.

look at the reasoning for a cold bore shift, cold barrel versus a hot barrel...

Well okay, but the heat compounds and if this was the case the shots would walk. After the first round, the barrel is warm but you can still touch it, but after the 5th or so the barrel is much much warmer. So why does the first round shift and not the 5th. Because of our brain.

We are excited about shooting, we want to get that first round down range, as well we're not physically designed to have a controlled explosion, or at least the perception of one 6" from our face, the body reacts to recoil. However we do adjust.

Secondly, Muzzle velocity is not constantly increasing, looking the chronograph numbers, they don't go in a straight line, they fluctuate, if heat was the deciding factor they would rise on a curve, they don't.

We have test this, and 9 out of 10 times you can reduce or completely eliminate the cold bore shift or perceived shift on most rifles.

First the test,

Take a proven rifle with a shift, and when you got the range set it aside, then shoot something else first. After shoot the rifle and see if the shift it gone, do this for more than one rifle.

The cure: Dry Fire prior will train you to eliminate it.

Now, address the clean bore, that is a physical change, you are removing the good copper from the bore which needs to be replaced. So you have things like cleaning oils and solvent in the bore that can physically change the characteristics which is why you see a clean cold bore shift.

If a rifle has a fouled cold bore shift there is something wrong with it. Either a threads, torque or bedding issue, but mostly we see it is the shooter.

Just because someone put a name to their pain, doesn't mean it should be that way.

I don't have a cold bore shift and no longer even consider it... it's a non-issue, with plenty of examples on here to demonstrate the point.

 

[jwoolf]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

I don't think that the first predictable shots out of my rifle shift because I'm doing something wrong. Hell, Lowlight, I made the president's 100 in 1984. I cut my teeth from the age of 10yrs old shooting positional matches in smallbore then moved to the national match course.

Like I said, in my own rifle, the POI shift is about 1/2 moa high, 1/2 moa left.... very predictable. It's not a huge shift but, it's there and, it's consistent. Very consistent.

It may be that all rifles do not shift a POI on a cold, fouled bore but, I can assure you that there's nothing wrong with my rifle and, mine does. Not much but, I notice it.

I would agree, however, that unless you're printing groups, loading your own ammo and trying to get that last drop of accuracy out of your rifle, you may not be able to see the POI shift, if your rifle does it... also, unless you are capable of shooting well enough to see it, it won't matter either. LOL

I'm not trying to bust chops here but, I assure you that the POI does shift in some rifles.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

Nobody said it was something wrong...

Did you ever shoot a group and say, wow what a great job and then you blow the next shot ? The rifle didn't decide to screw you, your mind did, because we make subconscious changes.

proof in point from class, 2 shot group, cold bore, and second shot follow up.

We have many others.

Wanna bet I can shoot your rifle with no shift ? Wanna see numerous examples of of no cold bore shift... it's very easy to see.

 

[jwoolf]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

Hmmmmm, I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you, Lowlight. I respect your opinion and, I'm not trying to be combative.

I wish you could shoot my rifle so you could see the POI change for yourself.

When I'm working up loads, I load two extra rounds. I put the first two in a different target to warm up the rifle.

Hell, I'm not saying that many rifles will not shift POT but, I know my own does and, it's good because I know where that first round will go if I do my part.

The thing is that if I consistantly shoot .25" to .3" 5 shot groups when printing a good load, why would the first shot out of the rifle consistantly fly a whole 1/2" out of the group?

I can't believe that I do it every time calling a good shot because it's the first shot of the day for me.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

Dude,

We do this every single class, don't know what you have done since 1984, but this 2010, we;ve progressed a bit in our understanding of things.

There are examples of this everyday on here, that the Shift is a not a normal component of the build. It's why we buy expensive rifles, we don't want the rifle to shift, that is a detriment to the mission.

I see hundreds of shooter a year with all kinds of kit, and the cold bore shift is not normal. It has no logical explanation, other than a issue.

As I state, 9 out of 10 rifles, and shooters will not see this if properly trained to understand this concept. It's quantifiable and it works, we do each week.

When I see a rifle with a cold bore shift, it usually walks, shots almost all touch each other in a row. Are their exceptions, sure but it is not the norm.

I can produce target, after target from people, and rifles with no change in impact.

Like I said above, with the shot group, we named that the refrigerator hypnoses, where we say we're going to shoot a 5 shot group and 3 are perfect and in our head we say, "ya, this is going on the refrigator" and the 4th shot is out of the group and we say, "fuck !" then the 5th goes back in... that is not the rifle that is the shooter and happens everyday on every range in the world... can we claim that is the rifle or is it our mind.

We are creatures of habit, doing something over and over is not beyond our reason... it's called a habit.

 

[Hasgun Willtravel]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

I would like to call Grahams AE into consideration. That is a factual, documented, corrected for, and extremely consitent CB that shoots Low Right every time, then on the second shot, hits dead nuts.

Dispute it all you want, but it does happen. Not to say 95% of the cases are not shooters, but there are rifles that do it (expensive custom rifles also), and to rule that out is a bit ignorant.

 

[jwoolf]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

I HATE printing groups, BTW.... I only do it when I change components etc to make sure I stay on the rifle's accuracy node.... other than that, I'm out shooting the 1000yd line.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

True, I said 9 out of 10 and have said repeatedly there is an issue with his rifle.

When I shot it, his AE it walked for me...

Now look at this,

AE POI Shift

Look at his group, cold bore group in fact,

This is from an AE that developed an issue, was found and corrected.

This thread is very telling and could hold a hint to Grahams, AE... and honestly you are talking about 1 rifle here, mine doesn't have it, neither does my AW. I contend and have that Graham's might be a threading issue, now, a torque issue...

I put this discussion in perspective, citing one off, doesn't really.

 

[jwoolf]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

It's really funny all the things that change the POI on a rifle when loading for it. You may be dumping 74.0 gr of powder and, load 74.2 and you have a 1/2 moa change in POI in the next group and the accuracy is gone.

The cold bore thing is no different... the barrel is physically different until it warms up.

Maybe there is something wrong with my rifle but, it shoots pretty well when I do my part.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

How is it physically different until it warms up... what changes ?

MV - no, not unless you get it really hot then it starts to effect primers and powders, heat compounds, if it was physically changing to that degree how does it keep from walking ?

Look,

Everything in the sun, rifle had been shot, zeroed, confirmed, then 20 rounds in 2 minutes and then back to zero... no shift.

heat is not the culprit
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They have done tests and found it will effect the primers and powders, but we have much less temperature sensitive powders nowadays.

 

[jwoolf]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

You know, there my physically something wrong with my rifle but, I don't know what it would be. It's torqued properly, good bedding, A3 stock etc.

You've honestly got me wondering if there's something wrong with it now.

But, the barrel, when it's cold doesn't have the same physical properties when it's cold as when it's warm. It's almost like shooting an old powder that is temperature sensitive. It does make a difference when you leave a round in a hot chamber too long, for example. I always thought that this sort of thinking also affects a barrel.

If I shoot my rifle over and over and let it get good and hot, it will start to impact higher and higher, for example.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

Watch the video.. Rifle was shot, a bunch prior, put in the sun with the rounds, then shot 20 rounds in 2 minutes, and the 21st shot was dead center, as well all those shots were taken at a 9X15" target at 550 yards, all 20 hit.

 

[vinconco]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

I've been experimenting with cold bore shots for several months now and one thing that I have found to be a factor that has not been in this discussion is the effect of days or weeks old fouling on the shot. I shot a target firing one round with sometimes a week or more between shots. I did this at 300 yards and did not clean or brush the bore between shots over a 3 month period. As the fouling built up the 10 shot cold bore groups got larger (2.0 moa) until I cleaned the rifle. After a good cleaning the cold bore groups tightened up to .75 moa. I'm now running an experiment where I dry brush and dry patch the barrel after each cold bore shot (or the days shooting) and the cold bore groups (fired at 450 yards) have stayed at approx .75 moa. My conclusion is that fouling that is fresh affects the shot differently than old fouling. So dry brushing the barrel after the days shooting may insure better consistency of subsequent cold bore shots.

As far as impact shifts, now that I have a good rifle it’s not a problem. Even my clean cold bore shot prints in the group.

 

[Graham]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

The cold bore on my AE, the one that Frank is talking about, walked at RO:

The above target was shot by Frank and it's a five shot group. The cold bore is the bottom shot.

The strange thing is that the same rifle now only walks for me for one additional shot, and only by 1/10 of an inch low at 100. All subsequent shots are in the same hole. Stranger still, the rifle used to be consistently .3 Mils low for the cold bore, clean or dirty. As of maybe four months ago, with about 2000 rounds through the barrel, now it's always .2 Mils low.

We think it's a barrel torque issue, but we're not sure. I don't care: I give it .2 Mils of extra elevation for the first shot of the day and it's perfect for the rest of the day - even after a two hour lunch.

 

[DP425]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

I'm just going to say I'm with Lowlight 110% on this- Everything he's stated is exactly what I've seen.

There is a reason the US Army Sniper School teaches that "cold bore shift" is an imaginary "fact" and they instead use it to describe clean bore. I can't speak as to what USMC is currently teaching, but I've yet to run across a marine sniper worth his salt that believes anything different.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

RG,

Did you see that other post, maybe try a chassis torque change... the one in the other was doing a fair impression of your rifle, maybe a few bumps to the chassis and see what happens ?

 

[Graham]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

Frank,

I saw that Thread. I thought the other AE did it more often and was less predictable. But I'll try it.

My AE is like Lindy's: it does it only once a day, whether you want it to or not, exactly the same way each time.

Last year Stacey told me to send the rifle back to him and he'll take it apart systematically, piece by piece. It was a generous offer, but doing that to what is otherwise a tackdriver didn't sound appealing to me.

I'll see you in September and I'll again be shooting the AE. Bring your FOOT-pound torque wrench, a rubber mallet and a crowbar. We'll fix it.

 

[Swan]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jwoolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Like I said, in my own rifle, the POI shift is about 1/2 moa high, 1/2 moa left.... very predictable. It's not a huge shift but, it's there and, it's consistent. Very consistent.

It may be that all rifles do not shift a POI on a cold, fouled bore but, I can assure you that there's nothing wrong with my rifle and, mine does. Not much but, I notice it.

I would agree, however, that unless you're printing groups, loading your own ammo and trying to get that last drop of accuracy out of your rifle, you may not be able to see the POI shift, if your rifle does it... also, unless you are capable of shooting well enough to see it, it won't matter either. LOL

I'm not trying to bust chops here but, I assure you that the POI does shift in some rifles.

</div></div>

I find it interesting that many on this forum claim their rifles <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">consistently</span></span> shoot in a different POI on cold bore shots. As the above post shows, a consistent POI change. My question is, why not just hold 1/2 moa high, 1/2 moa left on the cold bore shot? Then readjust POA to that bullseye for the next four shots, and bam! There is that magical, tiny lil ragged hole with no flyers. Right?

Or not. I guarantee if you hold 1/2 moa high and 1/2 moa left thats exactly where that first shot will land or close enough to not give a shit.

 

[DP425]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jwoolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Like I said, in my own rifle, the POI shift is about 1/2 moa high, 1/2 moa left.... very predictable. It's not a huge shift but, it's there and, it's consistent. Very consistent.

It may be that all rifles do not shift a POI on a cold, fouled bore but, I can assure you that there's nothing wrong with my rifle and, mine does. Not much but, I notice it.

I would agree, however, that unless you're printing groups, loading your own ammo and trying to get that last drop of accuracy out of your rifle, you may not be able to see the POI shift, if your rifle does it... also, unless you are capable of shooting well enough to see it, it won't matter either. LOL

I'm not trying to bust chops here but, I assure you that the POI does shift in some rifles.

</div></div>

I find it interesting that many on this forum claim their rifles <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">consistently</span></span> shoot in a different POI on cold bore shots. As the above post shows, a consistent POI change. My question is, why not just hold 1/2 moa high, 1/2 moa left on the cold bore shot? Then readjust POA to that bullseye for the next four shots, and bam! There is that magical, tiny lil ragged hole with no flyers. Right?

Or not. I guarantee if you hold 1/2 moa high and 1/2 moa left thats exactly where that first shot will land or close enough to not give a shit. </div></div>

This is exactly what is done for a clean bore shot- assuming you clean the bore exactly the same every time, it will shift the same. BUT, the rifle should not do this with COLD bore. Sure you can do hold-off but let me ask you this...

You go buy a nice, brand new corvette... The first time you shift from 1st to 2nd everyday, you must drive to 20mph in 1st gear, shift into neutral, systematically depress and release the clutch 4 times, then shift into 2nd. Otherwise, if you do not do this, the transmission will grind gears and not actually go into 2nd. But hey, it works just fine if you follow those steps the first time you shift from 1st to 2nd.

Anyway, there are two reasons to test fire before going on mission- #1 is to confirm zero. #2 is to eliminate the clean bore shot. This means when you're out on mission and have to take a shot, the first shot will have no shift- if you miss, it's either dope/hold-off or shooter. But at the same time, you train for that clean bore shot because you don't always have the chance to hit the range before heading out; unfortunately the only people not ignorant to sniper operations and requirements are snipers themselves.

 

[JFComfort]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jwoolf</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Like I said, in my own rifle, the POI shift is about 1/2 moa high, 1/2 moa left.... very predictable. It's not a huge shift but, it's there and, it's consistent. Very consistent.

It may be that all rifles do not shift a POI on a cold, fouled bore but, I can assure you that there's nothing wrong with my rifle and, mine does. Not much but, I notice it.

I would agree, however, that unless you're printing groups, loading your own ammo and trying to get that last drop of accuracy out of your rifle, you may not be able to see the POI shift, if your rifle does it... also, unless you are capable of shooting well enough to see it, it won't matter either. LOL

I'm not trying to bust chops here but, I assure you that the POI does shift in some rifles.

</div></div>

I find it interesting that many on this forum claim their rifles <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">consistently</span></span> shoot in a different POI on cold bore shots. As the above post shows, a consistent POI change. My question is, why not just hold 1/2 moa high, 1/2 moa left on the cold bore shot? Then readjust POA to that bullseye for the next four shots, and bam! There is that magical, tiny lil ragged hole with no flyers. Right?

Or not. I guarantee if you hold 1/2 moa high and 1/2 moa left thats exactly where that first shot will land or close enough to not give a shit. </div></div>

+1

My rifle is very accurate if I miss on any shot it was me not the rifle.

 

[Graham]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyway, there are two reasons to test fire before going on mission- #1 is to confirm zero. #2 is to eliminate the clean bore shot. This means when you're out on mission and have to take a shot, the first shot will have no shift-if you miss, it's either dope/hold-off or shooter. But at the same time, you train for that clean bore shot because you don't always have the chance to hit the range before heading out; unfortunately the only people not ignorant to sniper operations and requirements are snipers themselves. </div></div>I think once, long ago, I met an ignorant sniper.

In the same way that possession does not equal competence, position does not equal expertise.

One problem is that the military and law enforcement, when they teach fact and not myth, teach the 'How' and not the 'Why'. What you get as a student is how to hit a target: Bang. Clang. Good Job. Next! Add testosterone and blind encouragement, and the result is a push toward producing graduates who think they know because they can do it, and who can claim to know because they did it, but who are ill-equipped to improvise on their own because their knowledge lacks depth. A few even convince themsleves that there is no more to learn and settle for repeating to others what they heard - both the fact and the myth.

Most of the time I have no deviation between my clean cold bores and dirty cold bores. Even my AE shows the same deviation on the first shot whether it's clean/cold or dirty/cold. That is, unless I remove too much copper.

One of the better trained and more active agencies adopted a policy of shooting multiple fouling shots after cleaning and before deploying with their rifles. This policy lead me to suspect that they might be over-cleaning their rifles to begin with. Could it be that the fouling shots were their solution to a problem they themselves had created?

If you clean too much copper out of the bore it will likely take you more than one shot to get your zero back. When I test fire it's to make sure nothing is broken.

 

[DP425]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyway, there are two reasons to test fire before going on mission- #1 is to confirm zero. #2 is to eliminate the clean bore shot. This means when you're out on mission and have to take a shot, the first shot will have no shift-if you miss, it's either dope/hold-off or shooter. But at the same time, you train for that clean bore shot because you don't always have the chance to hit the range before heading out; unfortunately the only people not ignorant to sniper operations and requirements are snipers themselves. </div></div>I think once, long ago, I met an ignorant sniper.

In the same way that possession does not equal competence, position does not equal expertise.

One problem is that the military and law enforcement, when they teach fact and not myth, teach the 'How' and not the 'Why'. What you get as a student is how to hit a target: Bang. Clang. Good Job. Next! Add testosterone and blind encouragement, and the result is a push toward producing graduates who think they know because they can do it, and who can claim to know because they did it, but who are ill-equipped to improvise on their own because their knowledge lacks depth. A few even convince themsleves that there is no more to learn and settle for repeating to others what they heard - both the fact and the myth.

Most of the time I have no deviation between my clean cold bores and dirty cold bores. Even my AE shows the same deviation on the first shot whether it's clean/cold or dirty/cold. That is, unless I remove too much copper.

One of the better trained and more active agencies adopted a policy of shooting multiple fouling shots after cleaning and before deploying with their rifles. This policy lead me to suspect that they might be over-cleaning their rifles to begin with. Could it be that the fouling shots were their solution to a problem they themselves had created?

If you clean too much copper out of the bore it will likely take you more than one shot to get your zero back. When I test fire it's to make sure nothing is broken. </div></div>

Oh no doubt that's a bit of the issue- But the fault may or may not lay with the shooter's themselves in their cleaning regimen. Often times when you start talking about military and LE, the way and how much you clean your tube isn't up to the shooter. But at the same rate, I tend to see a consistent shift from cleaning- it isn't anywhere near to the extent of you'd see if you run sweet's down the tube 2-3 times (stripping away ALL of the copper)- But it's there in most of the Military rifles I've seen. It seems to make sense to attribute this more to residual solvents left in the bore (nearly impossible to truely remove ALL solvents/oils) more-so than the actual lack of carbon and powder fouling.

And I've certainly met some ignorant snipers too! But my comment was more in concerns with the lack of understanding non-snipers have in our mission requirements. Missions usually tend to go off much better when we're given wide leeway to operate as we see fit to complete a given mission instead of being confined to very narrow limitations. I'm not a shooter in LE, so I can't speak to the way most departments and teams employ their snipers, but it's far too common to see excessively narrow, ill-conceived perimeters placed on snipers in the military.

 

[jwoolf]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Swan</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

I find it interesting that many on this forum claim their rifles <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">consistently</span></span> shoot in a different POI on cold bore shots. As the above post shows, a consistent POI change. My question is, why not just hold 1/2 moa high, 1/2 moa left on the cold bore shot? Then readjust POA to that bullseye for the next four shots, and bam! There is that magical, tiny lil ragged hole with no flyers. Right?

Or not. I guarantee if you hold 1/2 moa high and 1/2 moa left thats exactly where that first shot will land or close enough to not give a shit. </div></div>

That's what I do on my rifle. I know where the first one will go so, I just point the rifle 1/2moa low, 1/2 moa right and, I get cold bore hits that way. After that, I forget about that hold.

My rifle only does it once a day.

 

[jwoolf]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

I figure most here have read this but, I'll post the link anyway. It's the Carlos Hathcock method of sighting a rifle in.

http://www.ar15armory.com/forums/Carlos-Hathcock-Method-t50768.html

I actually met Carlos in 1978, the first year I was on the Louisiana State High Power team. It's a funny story, actually.

Before the National Matches started back then ( I don't know if they still do it ) they always put on the small arms firing school. Back then only 30 cal was being done at the matches but, the small arms firing school was done with M16s. So anyway, I end up on the first relay after the class portion and I get handed a rifle without a zero and, I have to take two sighters offhand. LOL

So, every shooter got an AMU coach on the line... mine was Mr. Torres who was an AMU pistol shooter... I was 14yrs old at the time and, I get up there in my tattered canvas shooting jacket and fire my first sighter.... it was a 5 on the edge of the target at 2 o'clock. He asked for my call and I told him it was a good shot. He just kind of looked at me... trying to decide if the rifle could be that far off and just said, "ok" then, he cranked on the front sight and the windage. He looked at me and said, "I need you to give me a good shot here". I told him I would.... I shot the second sighter and called it good. The target came back up and it was a 9 at 2 o'clock. ( he didn't dial in the whole correction the first time because he didn't believe me )

I shot the next 9 shot 5 10s and 4x and, I get to the last shot and, I yanked it... he saw me cuss and asked for the call. I told him it would be a 9 at 9 o'clock and it was. So, I shot a 99 with 4x offhand and after that, he slapped me on the back, called me a little shit and took me around and introduced me to his buddies... one of which was Carlos. I didn't know who Carlos was back then. It was only years later that I came to find out the legend that went with him.

I remember the drawl coming from this tall lean man and him leaning on the side of the AMU van that was behind the line. He'd hang out with the guys looking through the team scopes back there and shoot the shit.... drinking strong coffee.

Anyway, I thought I'd share that story. I still remember him all these years later.

My father and my rifle coach became fast friends with Torres and Clayton another AMU guy that was a rifle shooter. Also, got to meet Colonel Joe, the guy that ran the matches back then and, he loved Community coffee so, we'd always bring him a LOT of it every year we went back after that.

Torres and Clayton came to Louisiana a couple of years after and gave our club a week long rifle class.... those were good times back then.

I didn't see Carlos much after that day but, I do remember his demeanor... He had this smirk on his face almost the whole time and, he told a lot of stories that I can't remember any of but, they always involved something funny while he sipped his cup of coffee. ( of course, he wasn't shooting that day )

I'm not sure I'd have remembered that it was him but, I remember that drawl of his... it's something you don't forget. I also remember a story he told, I don't remember what it was even about but, I do remember thinking that, he'd be leaning up against that van if the world was coming down around him and think to himself, that it wasn't that much to be upset about.

 

[LoneWolfUSMC]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

Lots of folks in the LE community still believe that you need to start the day with a completely clean rifle.

I don't. When I came to my team shooters were still cleaning DURING the firing day because they believed that too many shots before cleaning would degrade the accuracy if the system and could actually "hurt" the barrel.

Almost all of them now run fouled bores.

When I went through our Basic and Advanced State school I would sit and drink a soda while other guy meticulously cleaned the bores of their rifles (i just wiped out the action and put it away). A couple asked me why I didn't clean. I told them. When we started looking at the scores on each morning's qualification they understood why.

As Graham said, there are many who believe the myth and re-teach it because they don't know any better. No one has "shown them the math" and demonstrated how what they have been doing doesn't add up. There are some who still won't believe it after you show it to them, but those have bigger problems than how they drive a rifle.

 

[TOP PREDATOR]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

i would agrre with the fact that fouling changes POI due to the slight constriction of the bore due to the fouling, leading to small variance on paper (slight change in pressures, drag, etc.) along with temperature (expansion of the barrel metal) causing the same slight constriction. heat may also make the metal more pliable, making barrel whip to increase.

but is the cold bore / fouled bore / or whatever you want to call it also consdiering the "cold shooter"?

human error or the first shot of the day from the shooter could play into the mix, as they may not be "in the groove" quite yet.

perhaps anyone experiencing the cold bore difference in POI with a rifle should take a few rounds from a different rifle to in effect "warm themselves up", then take a shot from the rifle that historically has the cold bore POI shift phenomenon.

betcha that historic POI will be different after a few shooter warm up shots on a different rifle.

whatever the case may be - cold bore (temp), clean bore (fouling), cold shooter / warm shooter - if one is experimenting with it and historically (consistantly) the POI is the same, put it in the data book and adjust for it.

as for the time between shots to get back to the original temp (first shot) - i'd have to believe it depends on factors that would affect the dissapation of heat -

barrel thickness and metal compisition
weather / environmental factors (rain, humidity, cloud cover, etc.)

possibly the only way to measure that time accurately is with one of those fancy heat measuring laser thermometer things. take a reading on the outside AND as much as you can in the bore.

when the after the first shot matches the first shot temps, there ya go. i guess you can put that in the data book too for future reference when having / using one of those fancy heat measuring laser thermometer things isn't practical to have a rule of thumb for the environmentals at the time.

i clean my barrels (centerfire, rimfire, even shotgun) just about every time i get back home, just me being anal. but before any serious shooting or hunting, i will foul the barrel the night before.

 

[Graham]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

I was out at the range a few months ago with a sniper team from a sister department: good guys, experienced officers. They scrubbed and scrubbed their bores with brushes while I ate my lunch. Then they they resumed firing and set about accounting for and logging the deviations that they now saw - due to changes in temperature, light conditions, etc.

They didn't believe me when I told them I hadn't cleaned my AE in over 400 rounds. But my zero didn't change from morning to afternoon.

Another officer was very helpful: he told me that the reason I kept getting a 'click' instead of a 'bang' before my cold bore shot was because I had failed to seat the loaded magazine properly in the rifle.

Expressing my personal opinion on dry firing will have to wait for another day.

 

[ssgp2]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

A little off topic but....

Could someone explain why I need to shoot a few rounds the settle my groups after I use another powder?

It seem very unlikely that the residue in the barrel from Brand A would need to be washed out before Brand B could settle.

 

[sobrbiker883]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was out at the range a few months ago with a sniper team from a sister department: good guys, experienced officers. They scrubbed and scrubbed their bores with brushes while I ate my lunch. Then they they resumed firing and set about accounting for and logging the deviations that they now saw - due to changes in temperature, light conditions, etc.

They didn't believe me when I told them I hadn't cleaned my AE in over 400 rounds. But my zero didn't change from morning to afternoon.

Another officer was very helpful: he told me that the reason I kept getting a 'click' instead of a 'bang' before my cold bore shot was because I had failed to seat the loaded magazine properly in the rifle.

Expressing my personal opinion on dry firing will have to wait for another day. </div></div>

Paragraph 1-scary (the deviation logging-that could be ugly later)

Paragraph 3-funny as hell

 

[DP425]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Another officer was very helpful: he told me that the reason I kept getting a 'click' instead of a 'bang' before my cold bore shot was because I had failed to seat the loaded magazine properly in the rifle.

Expressing my personal opinion on dry firing will have to wait for another day. </div></div>

Incredible!!! That's a quote worth noting!

 

[DP425]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was out at the range a few months ago with a sniper team from a sister department: good guys, experienced officers. They scrubbed and scrubbed their bores with brushes while I ate my lunch. Then they they resumed firing and set about accounting for and logging the deviations that they now saw - due to changes in temperature, light conditions, etc.

They didn't believe me when I told them I hadn't cleaned my AE in over 400 rounds. But my zero didn't change from morning to afternoon.

Another officer was very helpful: he told me that the reason I kept getting a 'click' instead of a 'bang' before my cold bore shot was because I had failed to seat the loaded magazine properly in the rifle.

Expressing my personal opinion on dry firing will have to wait for another day. </div></div>

Paragraph 1-scary (the deviation logging-that could be ugly later)

Paragraph 3-funny as hell </div></div>

Agreed- in reference to paragraph 1, I've seen changes do to atmospherical conditions, but it's generally not significant on the same day unless you're in an area of extreme climates. Example, start shooting at 7am on a range in the middle east during summer and it might be a cool 70 degrees- come 3pm it's up to about 125 degrees. Also could be noticed if you storm is moving in in the afternoon when it was warm, clean and calm in the am. But it's safe to assume these are not the conditions you're talking about- their POI shifts were not likely to be caused by weather conditions it sounds.

And these guys are supposed to pull the trigger with others in close proximity of the target? Uh, no thanks! I'd rather the team hit the door, or wait it out with the negotiator!

 

[DP425]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ssgp2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A little off topic but....

Could someone explain why I need to shoot a few rounds the settle my groups after I use another powder?

It seem very unlikely that the residue in the barrel from Brand A would need to be washed out before Brand B could settle. </div></div>

It is off topic but---

That doesn't seem to make much sense to me. Sure you're not just anxious? Maybe taking a few rounds to settle back into the gun? There are guys who have been reloading a LOT longer than I have, but form what I know that just doesn't add up. Powder residue between different powders should not have a measurable effect on accuracy as far as I know. Maybe post this question in the reloading forum?

 

[Graham]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've seen changes do to atmospherical conditions, but it's generally not significant on the same day unless you're in an area of extreme climates.</div></div>At ASC the barometer difference between being on the mountain and down at Middle Earth is significant enough to take a second Kestrel reading. At the 'Cup in March, after the front went through on the last day many of us found that our zeros had been involuntarily reset.

 

[Redmanss]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

Thought I would share my experiences on this subject and how I was taught to eliminate the cold bore/shooter effect.

I went through the USMC SOTG Urban Sniper Course in the mid 90's. We would start off every morning and afternoon shooting session with a 100yd cold bore and tri-fire grouping exercise, with the morning's shot being a clean cold bore, and the afternoon's being a fouled cold bore. Ammo then was the M118 173gr FMJBT, and we were damn happy to consistently hold .75 MOA.

At the beginning of the course, my cold bore shots were "half way" consistently going 1 min right, 1/2 min high. I would make a sight compensation for this shift. As I started listening to my instructors more and more by showing up early to the range and do 5 min of dry firing along with up to an hour of dry firing every night, my cold bore shots came closer to my true zero, and eventually disappeared all together around midway through the course.

As the course proceeded, we implemented fouling shots to lessen/remove the clean cold bore factor by cleaning the weapons at the end of training and firing 1-2 fouling shots prior to overnight storage.

Graduation of the course required consistent first round hits of the 1moa aiming point, including firing from 200yds and from various supported positions. I logged over 2600 7.62 and 1500 .50 cal rounds fired during that 15 training day course, and practice reinforcing our marksmanship discipline is what made all the difference.

My instructors taught us that overcoming the cold bore had everything to do with the proper application of the marksmanship fundamentals along with preparation technique than from any other factor. As I was taught then and I still believe today, it's not cold bore, it's cold shooter.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My instructors taught us that overcoming the cold bore had everything to do with the proper application of the marksmanship fundamentals along with preparation technique than from any other factor. As I was taught then and I still believe today, it's not cold bore, it's cold shooter.</div></div>

I've heard this before...

 

[abilliott]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

Here is a question, I too have heard the cold clean cold dirty POI shift. I am not saying one way or another I simply have a question. When you say there is no POI shift between a clean first shot cold bore and others, are you just cleaning it and running patches till its dry? Or are you after its dry running a patch with oil on it and leaving your bore so that your first shot will be cold, clean and lubed?

 

[crashandburn]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

I would have throught if the gun is made really good then cold bore would be one of those 30% physical and 70% mental challenges. The only way I have checked for cold bore consistency is after the first shot @ 1 or 200 yrds I set the rifle in the truck cab and turn the ac on till the rifle feels cool again. It's not exact I know but at least it's not warm and everything gets a chance to settle down. I then shoot again @ the same target from the same position and repeat. It's good practice all in all. *NOTE* Barrel was dirty prior to shooting.I don't prefer starting a hunt or competition with a clean unfouled bore. I figured cold bore just ment the first round down the pipe while the bore was "cold" not that it was clean or not.

When the barrel is deep cleaned then shot, some times i get a change in POI for the first 1 or 2 shots (which is miniscule) and some times I don't. I feel practice has a lot to do with it.

I'm no professional just another enthusiast.

 

[hibc]

Re: Time between cold bore shots??

What I have experienced is that for some reason, the shooter doesnt relax till after the first shot or so, for instance, when you hold your rifle tight against your shoulder, the shot will impact high because of less give against the rifle, if you hold it to loose, it goes low. Most people hold the rifle different on the first shot then they end up relaxing, whether you think you do or not, and this is why they are getting "cold bore" shots, its cold shooter, not the rifle.

If you hold the rifle the exact same way every time, it doesnt matter if the rifle is cold, hot, clean, dirty or what, it will hit the same spot every time.