Time to rebarrel?

[CEO10KaDAY]

Hi guys,

Can someone chime in here on whether or not I should be rebarreling? I already have a new bartlein in hand for my ax338, but I'm not sure if it's necessary to make a change yet. I'm leaning more to the side of doing it anyways though because my groups have been opening up.

Couple photos I took through the borescope.

(that's the one that has me most concerned since there's firecracking on the grooves).

Thoughts?

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

I'm leaning more to the side of doing it anyways though because my groups have been opening up.

IMHO, this is the only part of your post that matters. If it slows down, or the groups open up past 'acceptable,' time for a new tube.

 

[diggler1833]

Have you ran those rounds that are now opening up over a chronograph?

Have you ever tried seating the bullets further out during the lifetime of that barrel?



I've definitely had far worse looking than yours shoot great. That's about what my 6CM barrel looked like at 600 rounds, and it made it to 1400. Accuracy and velocity falling apart together is usually a pretty good indicator that it is time. Sometimes, just accuracy falling apart is a failure elsewhere.

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

Have you ran those rounds that are now opening up over a chronograph?

Have you ever tried seating the bullets further out during the lifetime of that barrel?



I've definitely had far worse looking than yours shoot great. That's about what my 6CM barrel looked like at 600 rounds, and it made it to 1400. Accuracy and velocity falling apart together is usually a pretty good indicator that it is time. Sometimes, just accuracy falling apart is a failure elsewhere.

Biggest change I did was switch to the Nosler RDF (bergers aren't in stock anywhere). I didn't change anyting seating depth wise with the new bullet, kept the powder charge the same, and was getting very similar velocities. I even shot a match with the new bullet and was getting impacts at 2,800 yards (which is honestly a stretch for this rifle). But up close at 100yds on paper, the groups just suck. I even redid the cortina method where you find jam, subtract 20 thou, and then shoot 4 shot groups every 4-5 thou shorter. The best group I shot was 0.67 inches at 100 yds. I'm not pleased with that. This thing should be giving me hole on hole accuracy. So I ordered a new barrel, but before I have it spun up really want your guys opinion.

Also velocity has not dropped off. I'm sending a 300gr nosler at 2,750 with 91gr retumbo.

 

[stello1001]

My barrel has worse firecracking and still shoots factory ammo great!

 

[37L1]

Biggest change I did was switch to the Nosler RDF (bergers aren't in stock anywhere). I didn't change anyting seating depth wise with the new bullet, kept the powder charge the same, and was getting very similar velocities. I even shot a match with the new bullet and was getting impacts at 2,800 yards (which is honestly a stretch for this rifle). But up close at 100yds on paper, the groups just suck. I even redid the cortina method where you find jam, subtract 20 thou, and then shoot 4 shot groups every 4-5 thou shorter. The best group I shot was 0.67 inches at 100 yds. I'm not pleased with that. This thing should be giving me hole on hole accuracy. So I ordered a new barrel, but before I have it spun up really want your guys opinion.

Also velocity has not dropped off. I'm sending a 300gr nosler at 2,750 with 91gr retumbo.

RDF, Random Damn Flyer.

They ain't Bergers and that firecracking ain't that bad. Compare apples to apples. In my opinion your barrel is still good.

 

[psharon78]

I rebarreled my rifle once the groups became erratic during a PRS competition stage. I was getting erratic pressures downrange.

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

RDF, Random Damn Flyer.

They ain't Bergers and that firecracking ain't that bad. Compare apples to apples. In my opinion your barrel is still good.

IMO the RDF is a far more consistent bullet than the berger. Out of the three boxes of bergers I've shot through this gun, very few of them were the same length. Also, it wasn't until I switched to the RDF that I hit the 2,800 target in my ELR match for the first time.

 

[Supersubes]

From the looks of it, its not even in the ballpark of being shagged. Switch bullets.

 

[TheOfficeT-Rex]

No velocity drop, you're just not doing as well with noslers? Not surprised, I never had good luck with RDFs.
Clean the barrel and re-do a load workup. Swap back to known good, or swap bullet/powder.

37L1 nailed it- "apples to apples."

 

[oldrifleman]

I would bet that your barrel just does not like the bullet/load.

 

[Frank Green]

It doesn't look horrible. I don't see chunks out of the sides of the lands from what I see.

What and how are you cleaning it? Could use a good cleaning from what I'm seeing.

If you give it a good cleaning and at long range (500 yards or further) will tell you what is going on. If the groups down range have opened up and you've tried retuning the load etc... to no avail... then pull it. If it's shooting good at short range but long range suffers... that's a warning sign your barrel is on it's last legs.

Later, Frank
Bartlein Barrels

 

[Supersubes]

IMO the RDF is a far more consistent bullet than the berger. Out of the three boxes of bergers I've shot through this gun, very few of them were the same length. Also, it wasn't until I switched to the RDF that I hit the 2,800 target in my ELR match for the first time.

That may all be true but many people haven't had luck with rdf’s. Thats pretty much not a thing with bergers, they generally just shoot.

 

[Frank Green]

How many rounds are on it?

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

How many rounds are on it?

I think i'm around 900 on it. I bought the weapon used from someone who never shot it. I had Mile High borescope it upon purchase and they thought that max there was 500 rds on it. But, my first 200 rds of bergers I was using N570.

Regarding cleaning, well, I never really clean. I bought in to the principle that you don't need to clean your rifles until about 300 rounds through it. So it would just sit in the safe after a match or weekend shoot. This past weekend was the first time I cleaned the thing in months. I followed your method on your website and just ran wet patch after wet patch through (using hoppes 9). It got better after about 20 different wet patches, but now even as I push a dry patch through, there's still some carbon on the patch. Not as much as when I started, but it's not coming out "clean" per se.

Perhaps since I've neglected the barrel for quite some time, I should switch to something other than just standard hoppes?

Is it worth starting at squre one again? RDF or not, it's what I have right now, I stockpiled ~500 of them in my pantry and I'd like to see them through. Should I give a good cleaning, find another velocity node, then redo a seating depth test?

 

[rustyinbend]

My barrel has worse firecracking and still shoots factory ammo great!

Same with me (except that I reload my own) ... got a replacement barrel for my Tikka T3x TAC A1 in 6.5-CM expecting it to fall over at any time given what the barrel looked like with a bore-scope, and the fact that I had north of 2,000 rounds through it. Took it to the range for its ceremonial "last firing" and put 20 consecutive bullets almost through the same hole at 100-yards. Went out to 1,000 yards and it was still spot-on. That was about 500 rounds ago. Made me a believer in waiting for "external" verification before unscrewing a perfectly functional barrel.

 

[spife7980]

Regarding cleaning, well, I never really clean. I bought in to the principle that you don't need to clean your rifles until about 300 rounds through it. So it would just sit in the safe after a match or weekend shoot. This past weekend was the first time I cleaned the thing in months. I followed your method on your website and just ran wet patch after wet patch through (using hoppes 9). It got better after about 20 different wet patches, but now even as I push a dry patch through, there's still some carbon on the patch. Not as much as when I started, but it's not coming out "clean" per se.

Perhaps since I've neglected the barrel for quite some time, I should switch to something other than just standard hoppes?

Frank won’t agree: but see if you have any clr (calcium lime rust) laying about under your sink.

Wet the patch, run it through the barrel real quick. Wet another, let it set in the throat for 2-3 minutes and then patch it dry.
It’ll wipe a surprising amount of residual carbon out quick and if you don’t soak it for extended periods you dont have to worry about the etching.

 

[37L1]

IMO the RDF is a far more consistent bullet than the berger. Out of the three boxes of bergers I've shot through this gun, very few of them were the same length. Also, it wasn't until I switched to the RDF that I hit the 2,800 target in my ELR match for the first time.

Did you ever shoot 100 yard groups with the RDF before? If so, were they better then as compared to now?

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

Frank won’t agree: but see if you have any clr (calcium lime rust) laying about under your sink.

Wet the patch, run it through the barrel real quick. Wet another, let it set in the throat for 2-3 minutes and then patch it dry.
It’ll wipe a surprising amount of residual carbon out quick and if you don’t soak it for extended periods you dont have to worry about the etching.

I'm going to do that actually. I am also open to anyones bright ideas for cleaning out the chamber/breech areas of the rifle as well. Chamber mop?

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

Did you ever shoot 100 yard groups with the RDF before? If so, were they better then as compared to now?

I've never tested the RDF before this past weekend. The first time I shot the RDF was at a match. Where again, I impacted at 2,800 yds. I had no previous experience with the RDF, I just kept everything the same. Same powder charge, same seating depth. Showed up, zeroed, and shot the match. Not saying I can't do it with a berger either. After I clean my rifle, I'm going to go shoot groups again on Friday with the RDF.

These were my initial groups with bergers

100 yd group

300 yd group

Best group I shot with the RDF:

edit: also I just remembered in the last match I shot, I also impacted on my first cold bore shot at 1,000 yds too. (take that texas plinking) - so I'm not convinced the RDF is a trash bullet.

I'm going to start by giving this thing some tender love cleaning, and then I'm going to test my seating depths at 500 yds.

 

[Ledzep]

No. Still plenty of life in that barrel.

 

[spife7980]

I'm going to do that actually. I am also open to anyones bright ideas for cleaning out the chamber/breech areas of the rifle as well. Chamber mop?

I just wrap a paper towel around my jag.
Take half a paper towel and tay the jag down tip in the center, fold it over so the jag is entirely encased in paper towel and then spin it around to wrap it up. Dip the tip of the paper towel, dont soak the entire thing and flood the action, in a bit of clr and stick it in the chamber to swab around.

 

[37L1]

I've never tested the RDF before this past weekend. The first time I shot the RDF was at a match. Where again, I impacted at 2,800 yds. I had no previous experience with the RDF, I just kept everything the same. Same powder charge, same seating depth. Showed up, zeroed, and shot the match. Not saying I can't do it with a berger either. After I clean my rifle, I'm going to go shoot groups again on Friday with the RDF.

These were my initial groups with bergers

100 yd group
View attachment 8461097

300 yd group
View attachment 8461099

Best group I shot with the RDF:
View attachment 8461100


edit: also I just remembered in the last match I shot, I also impacted on my first cold bore shot at 1,000 yds too. (take that texas plinking) - so I'm not convinced the RDF is a trash bullet.

I'm going to start by giving this thing some tender love cleaning, and then I'm going to test my seating depths at 500 yds.

So you finally shot a one hundred yard group with the RDF's for the first time and came to the conclusion your barrel may be toast?

That's what it sounds like.

Your best group with RDF: two touching and one random damn flyer.

Keep shooting groups with the RDF's and you'll understand that it's the bullet.

But if it gets you to where you want to go at distance, just shoot there, don't do the group thing because you'll just get frustrated.

Don't ask me how I know and I'm not the only one.

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

So you finally shot a one hundred yard group with the RDF's for the first time and came to the conclusion your barrel may be toast?

That's what it sounds like.

Your best group with RDF: two touching and one random damn flyer.

Keep shooting groups with the RDF's and you'll understand that it's the bullet.

But if it gets you to where you want to go at distance, just shoot there, don't do the group thing because you'll just get frustrated.

Don't ask me how I know and I'm not the only one.

I take it you don't like Nosler.

I'm going to clean the thing thoroughly, then will go back out and test group sizes at 100 & 500 yards with both. I still have ~30 cartridges loaded with bergers, and when I conclude shooting my groups and find no statistically significant differences from either group, I'm dropping the weapon system off at the gunsmith with the new barrel lol

 

[37L1]

I take it you don't like Nosler.

I'm going to clean the thing thoroughly, then will go back out and test group sizes at 100 & 500 yards with both. I still have ~30 cartridges loaded with bergers, and when I conclude shooting my groups and find no statistically significant differences from either group, I'm dropping the weapon system off at the gunsmith with the new barrel lol

Probably best that you swap, you will have more confidence in the new barrel.

I really wanted to like the Nosler RDF and shot enough of them to know what I know.

I still like Nosler bullets in 80 and 77 (not RDF) for my 223's, one barrel in particular loves them, so I'm not anti Nosler but the RDF though!

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

Probably best that you swap, you will have more confidence in the new barrel.

I really wanted to like the Nosler RDF and shot enough of them to know what I know.

I still like Nosler bullets in 80 and 77 (not RDF) for my 223's, one barrel in particular loves them, so I'm not anti Nosler but the RDF though!

Well Idk anymore. I admit I'm a novice to all this, but I feel that I'm well researched. I even knew people were 50/50 on the RDF prior to even buying them.

On the 1 hand I'm glad that I have the new bartlein ready to go since their wait times are 8'ish months, and on the other hand, I think I'm going to hold off on rebarrelling now and abuse the current barrel a little more and really try to dial in my methods a little more. Definitely appreciate your input nevertheless.

I also think I'm going to buy some A-tips and hopefully berger's come back in stock soon.

 

[Frank Green]

I think i'm around 900 on it. I bought the weapon used from someone who never shot it. I had Mile High borescope it upon purchase and they thought that max there was 500 rds on it. But, my first 200 rds of bergers I was using N570.

Regarding cleaning, well, I never really clean. I bought in to the principle that you don't need to clean your rifles until about 300 rounds through it. So it would just sit in the safe after a match or weekend shoot. This past weekend was the first time I cleaned the thing in months. I followed your method on your website and just ran wet patch after wet patch through (using hoppes 9). It got better after about 20 different wet patches, but now even as I push a dry patch through, there's still some carbon on the patch. Not as much as when I started, but it's not coming out "clean" per se.

Perhaps since I've neglected the barrel for quite some time, I should switch to something other than just standard hoppes?

Is it worth starting at squre one again? RDF or not, it's what I have right now, I stockpiled ~500 of them in my pantry and I'd like to see them through. Should I give a good cleaning, find another velocity node, then redo a seating depth test?

If 900 rounds on it and your using a double based powder.... your getting up there on barrel life. Double based powders are harder on barrels then single based powders. That's a known variable.

Depending on rate of fire and cleaning etc.... on a 338 Lapua.... about 1500-1700 rounds is max for barrel life and that's assuming 1moa requirement. If you want less than 1moa.... your barrel will get pulled sooner and I'll say 1000 to 1200 rounds will be about it.

300 rounds in between cleaning... the more rounds you put on the barrel life wise.... the higher the round count the more frequent your cleaning needs to be. Also once you have a fouling / build up and if it's causing accuracy issues....then when you go to clean it it's going to take you longer to clean it to get the accuracy back.

Right now I'd dry patch the bore.... get Sweet's 7.62 solvent and wet patch one after another until the patches come out clean and then dry patch the bore... then get a patch soaked with 40x cleaner or JB bore compound and stroke the barrel 10x with that one patch and short stroke the throat area say another 5 to 10 more times. Dry patch it out and follow up with a light coat of Hoppe's. Before you take it out to shoot it... dry patch the bore and chamber. Shoot it and see what happens.

 

[diggler1833]

Biggest reason for accuracy degradation that I see still is the substitution of bullets without a new load development.

I've worked little with the RDF, but from what I've seen they are much more seating depth sensitive than others.

 

[kentuckyMarksman]

To me, your barrel still looks fine. Plenty of life left in it. I've got barrels that look much worse and still shoot great. If you changed bullets and your groups opened up, then I'd be looking at your load again, not your barrel.

That said, if you just want a new barrel, then by all means swap it out.

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

To me, your barrel still looks fine. Plenty of life left in it. I've got barrels that look much worse and still shoot great. If you changed bullets and your groups opened up, then I'd be looking at your load again, not your barrel.

That said, if you just want a new barrel, then by all means swap it out.

Why do I need to work up a powder charge if I’m getting consistent single digit ES and SD? I’m sending the 300 gr pill right around 2,750 with every trigger pull at 91 gr retumbo when it’s 95° outside.

Also, who came up with the word “Extreme spread”? Why is implying that it’s EXTREME necessary?

Lol…. EXTREME! Spread. Kinda dumb if you want my opinion.


And thank you again frank for the advice.

 

[TheOE800]

Also, who came up with the word “Extreme spread”? Why is implying that it’s EXTREME necessary?

Lol…. EXTREME! Spread. Kinda dumb if you want my opinion.

extreme​

[ ik-streem ]
adjective, ex·trem·er, ex·trem·est.

1. of a character or kind farthest removed from the ordinary or average:
   extreme measures.
2. utmost or exceedingly great in degree:
   extreme joy.
   Synonyms: superlative
3. farthest from the center or middle; outermost; endmost:
   the extreme limits of a town.
   Synonyms: uttermost, last, ultimate
4. farthest, utmost, or very far in any direction:
   an object at the extreme point of vision.
5. exceeding the bounds of moderation:
   extreme fashions.
6. going to the utmost or very great lengths in action, habit, opinion, etc.:
   an extreme conservative.
   Synonyms: unreasonable, uncompromising, fanatical, excessive, immoderate, extravagant
   Antonyms: moderate
7. last or final:
   extreme hopes.
8. Chiefly Sports. very dangerous or difficult:
   extreme skiing

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

extreme​

[ ik-streem ]
adjective, ex·trem·er, ex·trem·est.

1. of a character or kind farthest removed from the ordinary or average:
   extreme measures.
2. utmost or exceedingly great in degree:
   extreme joy.
   Synonyms: superlative
3. farthest from the center or middle; outermost; endmost:
   the extreme limits of a town.
   Synonyms: uttermost, last, ultimate
4. farthest, utmost, or very far in any direction:
   an object at the extreme point of vision.
5. exceeding the bounds of moderation:
   extreme fashions.
6. going to the utmost or very great lengths in action, habit, opinion, etc.:
   an extreme conservative.
   Synonyms: unreasonable, uncompromising, fanatical, excessive, immoderate, extravagant
   Antonyms: moderate
7. last or final:
   extreme hopes.
8. Chiefly Sports. very dangerous or difficult:
   extreme skiing

This is what plays in your head every time you hear the word “extreme” spread. Don’t lie.

 

[Baron23]

@CEO10KaDAY - wow, you sure seem to have some strong opinions, and made some strong statements, for a self-proclaimed novice. And, tbh, that status is sort of...kind of...apparent from some of what you posted. And I say this as I'm absolutely NOT one of the very expert and very experienced people on this forum.

There have been replies to you in this thread from such people... @spife7980 , @Ledzep , and of course @Frank Green are all people I absolutely listen to.

But, perhaps I may have some thoughts to offer.

1. I am NOT one of the many on this board who will say, in a knee jerk fashion, to throw it away at the first mention of a bore scope. To me, borescopes are GREAT diagnostic tools with which to evaluate your cleaning r lack thereof. Also, its just sort of nice to peak at the throat to on a new, unfired barrel just to see how OCD your gunsmith is. I like OCD gunsmiths (haha like to like, eh?) but looking at the throat is no guarantee that it will shoot well or badly unless, perhaps, its really fucked up. I have NOT personally found any way to predict a barrel's performance from just looking in the bore...again, absent any really gross defects. Others may be able to, but I just haven't found any information to support a reliable correlation of one to the other (and many will offer a Savage barrel as a prime example why you cannot really make such a correlation).

2. As far as I can tell you pics are just downstream of the throat. If so, that fire cracking doesn't look like doodly-squat to me.

3. I could tell you were shooting a large magnum by the bullet weights you mentioned. I was going to ask what caliber it is exactly but I see Mr. Green mentioned .338 Lapua so either I missed it or he recognizes the caliber from the bullet info shared. But, you said you think your rifle AND you should be shooting hole in hole at 100 yards. Have you ever shot hole in hole with any magnum rifle....or even any centerfire rifle? I'm serious...cause that seems to be your criteria for happiness with this rifle and I'd say that's a damn high bar.

4. Berger bullet consistency - ok, you say you find Bergers to be very inconsistent. What are you measuring? Bullet base to ogive (the first part of the bearing surface to reach the lands) or bullet base to meplat (yeah, that's the pointy end of the bullet). If looking for consistency of a manf's bullet, you should be looking at base to ogive. An open tip match, copper jacked, bullet will always have a bit of variation in the meplat that's formed when they pull the copper cup up over the lead core. And, if you really want to jump down the rabbit hole you can join the F-class and BR guys and get into bullet tipping but I rather like Keith Glasscock's understanding that there are very important limitations in how much of that you can/should do before you start negatively impacting performance rather than enhancing it. With those guys, that rabbit hole is often part of a family of rabbit holes including neck turning and sorting cases by volume (like with water, right), sorting primers by weight, and I'm sure there are many others.

5. Extreme Spread - I'm pretty sure you understand what ES is...the difference between the largest and smallest data point in a set...but I'm also pretty sure the entire shooting community doesn't care if you think its "stupid". Really?

6. Why work up a load if you are having good ES and SDs? Well, because those are measures of consistentcy in your reloading process and have shit all to do with whether your rifle likes that load or not. Many will advocate doing a charge ladder and look for some speed that your rifle (really the barrel, I think) likes. Some will say just pick a speed (our own Frank Galli has said many times that right around 2,850 is a sweet spot for most 6.5 CM rifles) and then vary seating depth to fine tune it in. Some say do charge testing, find a charge that your rifle likes, then vary seating depth to see if you can tighten it up even more.

If I seem to have just a wee bit of attitude then I apologize (well, not really but...to be polite, yeah?) but your forum handle...CEO10kaDay? Wow. Look, you may be a CEO and make $3.5M/year...or, you could be a custodial worker in a penitentiary. Who knows. But nobody here is going to be impressed with one or look down on you for the other. See what I'm saying. I guess it just got under my skin a bit....and I don't expect you to give a flying fig about that...even I don't think what annoys me should be important to anybody. lol

Best of luck. Hopefully some of what I wrote is actually accurate and something you will find useful. If not, just ignore it. I'm nobody...just another swinging dick on an anonymous shooting forum.

Cheers

 

[stanley_white]

If I made 10k a day, I would consult experts, but then try some stuff anyway, because I could afford to and learning on my own / validating expert opinions is fun.

-Stan

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

@CEO10KaDAY - wow, you sure seem to have some strong opinions, and made some strong statements, for a self-proclaimed novice. And, tbh, that status is sort of...kind of...apparent from some of what you posted. And I say this as I'm absolutely NOT one of the very expert and very experienced people on this forum.

There have been replies to you in this thread from such people... @spife7980 , @Ledzep , and of course @Frank Green are all people I absolutely listen to.

But, perhaps I may have some thoughts to offer.

1. I am NOT one of the many on this board who will say, in a knee jerk fashion, to throw it away at the first mention of a bore scope. To me, borescopes are GREAT diagnostic tools with which to evaluate your cleaning r lack thereof. Also, its just sort of nice to peak at the throat to on a new, unfired barrel just to see how OCD your gunsmith is. I like OCD gunsmiths (haha like to like, eh?) but looking at the throat is no guarantee that it will shoot well or badly unless, perhaps, its really fucked up. I have NOT personally found any way to predict a barrel's performance from just looking in the bore...again, absent any really gross defects. Others may be able to, but I just haven't found any information to support a reliable correlation of one to the other (and many will offer a Savage barrel as a prime example why you cannot really make such a correlation).

2. As far as I can tell you pics are just downstream of the throat. If so, that fire cracking doesn't look like doodly-squat to me.

3. I could tell you were shooting a large magnum by the bullet weights you mentioned. I was going to ask what caliber it is exactly but I see Mr. Green mentioned .338 Lapua so either I missed it or he recognizes the caliber from the bullet info shared. But, you said you think your rifle AND you should be shooting hole in hole at 100 yards. Have you ever shot hole in hole with any magnum rifle....or even any centerfire rifle? I'm serious...cause that seems to be your criteria for happiness with this rifle and I'd say that's a damn high bar.

4. Berger bullet consistency - ok, you say you find Bergers to be very inconsistent. What are you measuring? Bullet base to ogive (the first part of the bearing surface to reach the lands) or bullet base to meplat (yeah, that's the pointy end of the bullet). If looking for consistency of a manf's bullet, you should be looking at base to ogive. An open tip match, copper jacked, bullet will always have a bit of variation in the meplat that's formed when they pull the copper cup up over the lead core. And, if you really want to jump down the rabbit hole you can join the F-class and BR guys and get into bullet tipping but I rather like Keith Glasscock's understanding that there are very important limitations in how much of that you can/should do before you start negatively impacting performance rather than enhancing it. With those guys, that rabbit hole is often part of a family of rabbit holes including neck turning and sorting cases by volume (like with water, right), sorting primers by weight, and I'm sure there are many others.

5. Extreme Spread - I'm pretty sure you understand what ES is...the difference between the largest and smallest data point in a set...but I'm also pretty sure the entire shooting community doesn't care if you think its "stupid". Really?

6. Why work up a load if you are having good ES and SDs? Well, because those are measures of consistentcy in your reloading process and have shit all to do with whether your rifle likes that load or not. Many will advocate doing a charge ladder and look for some speed that your rifle (really the barrel, I think) likes. Some will say just pick a speed (our own Frank Galli has said many times that right around 2,850 is a sweet spot for most 6.5 CM rifles) and then vary seating depth to fine tune it in. Some say do charge testing, find a charge that your rifle likes, then vary seating depth to see if you can tighten it up even more.

If I seem to have just a wee bit of attitude then I apologize (well, not really but...to be polite, yeah?) but your forum handle...CEO10kaDay? Wow. Look, you may be a CEO and make $3.5M/year...or, you could be a custodial worker in a penitentiary. Who knows. But nobody here is going to be impressed with one or look down on you for the other. See what I'm saying. I guess it just got under my skin a bit....and I don't expect you to give a flying fig about that...even I don't think what annoys me should be important to anybody. lol

Best of luck. Hopefully some of what I wrote is actually accurate and something you will find useful. If not, just ignore it. I'm nobody...just another swinging dick on an anonymous shooting forum.

Cheers

Yes I am a novice to this. I first bought the rifle last August, and that's when I really started handloading for it. So I'm right around the 1 year mark in total experience both behind the gun and on the ammo press. My opinions are not strong - in my opinion - it's just that I've made a considerable investment and bought top quality reloading components where it made the most sense, and I take great detailed notes on everything I do, so it's just that I have full confidence in the validity of my outputs. You said it yourself my reloading process being consistent is evidenced by my es/sd numbers. I also try my best to do my own research before asking questions. I also shoot this rig a hell of a lot, and I just built a 6 dasher which absolutely pisses on the AI in terms of accuracy. The first 10 shots I ever took with the dasher were hole on hole - it was also a brand new bartlein, which is primarily the reason I bought the new 338 bartlein. I also shoot this thing frequently, darn near once a week.

Also, I never said it was stupid. I just think it's funny. I can't help but giggle every time I hear the words EXTREME spread.

Reality is that Bergers aren't in stock anywhere right now except Gunbroker, and I didn't get this rich by being stupid enough to pay 2x MSRP for anything. So I picked up some RDF's and I am determined to get them to shoot.

 

[Baron23]

Yes I am a novice to this. I first bought the rifle last August, and that's when I really started handloading for it. So I'm right around the 1 year mark in total experience both behind the gun and on the ammo press. My opinions are not strong - in my opinion - it's just that I've made a considerable investment and bought top quality reloading components where it made the most sense, and I take great detailed notes on everything I do, so it's just that I have full confidence in the validity of my outputs. You said it yourself my reloading process being consistent is evidenced by my es/sd numbers. I also try my best to do my own research before asking questions. I also shoot this rig a hell of a lot, and I just built a 6 dasher which absolutely pisses on the AI in terms of accuracy. The first 10 shots I ever took with the dasher were hole on hole - it was also a brand new bartlein, which is primarily the reason I bought the new 338 bartlein. I also shoot this thing frequently, darn near once a week.

Also, I never said it was stupid. I just think it's funny. I can't help but giggle every time I hear the words EXTREME spread.

Reality is that Bergers aren't in stock anywhere right now except Gunbroker, and I didn't get this rich by being stupid enough to pay 2x MSRP for anything. So I picked up some RDF's and I am determined to get them to shoot.

I'm not trying to belabor the points...but probably will...just a couple of quick comments

- haha...ok, you got me...not "stupid"....it was "dumb" lol

- And I'm not trying to tell you to shoot Bergers...shoot what you want (whether you are rich or not) and enjoy your journey with the RDFs. I've never loaded them so I have no input at all. What I was trying to get across was base to ogive and not base to meplat when looking at bullet consistency. That's all.

I'll let someone else comment on the differences in shooting 6 Dasher and .338 Laupa.

Cheers

 

[kentuckyMarksman]

Why do I need to work up a powder charge if I’m getting consistent single digit ES and SD? I’m sending the 300 gr pill right around 2,750 with every trigger pull at 91 gr retumbo when it’s 95° outside.

Your low ES tells me that your loading process is consistent, but while very consistent, it doesn't sound like it's best for your barrel since your groups have opened.

I have a 6.5 Creedmoor rifle, very accurate, but with a load I worked up (ES of less than 10fps) it just doesn't group well. That same rifle, using slightly higher powder charge (and it also has a slightly higher ES at the higher charge) and the rifle groups much better.

I have a 223 that does similar with another load with a low ES, doesn't like it, but groups better with loads slightly less consistent.

Point being, the load that has the lowest ES, may not be the load with the smallest groups. I'm just an amateur, but this has been my experience (and I suspect it may be because of barrel harmonics which I don't fully understand). I'm sure more seasoned shooters on here share my experience as well.

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

Alright y'all, riddle me this..

I just did some powder testing last night - it was about 92f out when I did this, and I warmed the barrel up with about 9 shots before hand, then let it rest for 10 minutes, and then began, but, how does one choose a node on this graph, if no node exists?

the 91 gr charge had an ES of 5.3 and SD of 2.2 --> which is why I think I chose that weight before.

I'm stumped.

The increase in velocity changes the slowest from 90 to 91, but it doesn't seem significant.

 

[oldrifleman]

Which load grouped the best? In the end Nodes are just a data point. The thing is to find a load that groups.

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

Which load grouped the best? In the end Nodes are just a data point. The thing is to find a load that groups.

The way I understood it was that if you have wide ES you should adjust your powder charge, and if you have sub optimal groups, adjust your seating depth. What I was hoping to find yesterday was a powder charge that had the lowest marginal increase in velocity, however, that graph basically depicts a near perfect correlation from powder charge and velocity.

Four out of six groups had bug eye groups plus the damn random flyer. Should I do my seating depth testing based on truly the smallest group?

The best group I shot with the Bergers was 0.85 inches and the best group with the RDF was 0.61 inches at 89 grains.

so....?

 

[oldrifleman]

Yes, pick the smallest group in the velocity point you want and start playing with your seating. I am sure someone smarter will disagree but that is my recommendation.

 

[Kadams1563]

Alright y'all, riddle me this..

I just did some powder testing last night - it was about 92f out when I did this, and I warmed the barrel up with about 9 shots before hand, then let it rest for 10 minutes, and then began, but, how does one choose a node on this graph, if no node exists?

View attachment 8467938

the 91 gr charge had an ES of 5.3 and SD of 2.2 --> which is why I think I chose that weight before.

I'm stumped.

The increase in velocity changes the slowest from 90 to 91, but it doesn't seem significant.

With such a large caliber and amount of grains I am surprised there is not a flatter curve on that graph.

I would have thought charge weights wouldn’t make that much difference with 1 grain.

You are also only doing 20 fps spreads id change it to 50 or something higher to actually see a flat spot.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Find what shoots the best first, but you've been told by many already that the RDF does not shoot consistently in many many rifles. So you may get a good SD/ES but if it won't group 5 shots over and over with a decent group size then what good is it? Your barrel doesn't look that worn to me because the firecracking is just not much. Your bullet sucks, so until you shoot a different one, you won't get consistent groups, which matters A LOT more than 2 or 3 ES.

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

Yes, pick the smallest group in the velocity point you want and start playing with your seating. I am sure someone smarter will disagree but that is my recommendation.

I’m gonna go test the 89 gr later today. Will report back.

I’m going to have to buy a prism to shoot 2800 yds though if I choose that weight officially.

Lucky me!

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

Find what shoots the best first, but you've been told by many already that the RDF does not shoot consistently in many many rifles. So you may get a good SD/ES but if it won't group 5 shots over and over with a decent group size then what good is it? Your barrel doesn't look that worn to me because the firecracking is just not much. Your bullet sucks, so until you shoot a different one, you won't get consistent groups, which matters A LOT more than 2 or 3 ES.

The control group (Berger) isn’t beating the RDF grouping. If I can get these RDF’s to group well, jokes on you.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

The control group (Berger) isn’t beating the RDF grouping. If I can get these RDF’s to group well, jokes on you.

Yup, jokes on me.....

Go ahead and put 3 groups of 5 shots up here and show me how the joke is on me.... look, I have nothing against nosler, some of thier other bullets are great, but I know from testing that bullet is not consistent. It may group well for 3 shots, then it will have a "flyer" (which is not really a flyer, it's a part of the group) . This will continue again and again.... I'm just trying to save you from wasting a bunch of components and time man, and it's not like it's just me, several others have told you this as well, but you go ahead and post those 3 groups of 5 shots with that RDF bullet and tag me when you do.

 

[Kadams1563]

The control group (Berger) isn’t beating the RDF grouping. If I can get these RDF’s to group well, jokes on you.

That may be but your gonna burn that barrel out most likely trying to get them to work.

Can you find anyone else shooting RDF’s at the matches?

I know once a lot of people jumped to them for 6mm PRS and they all performed poorly. If they can’t make a 6mm bullet for 1000 yards I’m not confident they can make a .338 bullet for 2800 yards.

i would completely strip that barrel of all copper and carbon. And start over. Adopt a cleaning process of much more frequent. Get some actual cleaning solvent, appropriate rod, jags, patches, and brushes.

 

[CEO10KaDAY]

Well it’s not like I’m going to donate them to goodwill, and if I shoot out my barrel playing around then who cares I already have a backup.

 

[BuildingConceptsllc]

Well it’s not like I’m going to donate them to goodwill, and if I shoot out my barrel playing around then who cares I already have a backup.

That's true. I'd bet you have a decent amount of life left in that barrel and the smith's estimation initially was just being on the safe side. I'd bet if you cleaned it and shot a good bullet you have a good bit more to shoot but never know and I'd defer to frank G on that. Just shoot the rdf for practice and shoot a good bullet for comps and rebarrel when needed based on chrono and groups opening with a different bullet.

 

[JerkyFreak]

Nosler RDF. Also known as "Random Damn Flyer".

When are people going to learn that choosing a node by firing 1 or 2 shots on an increasing charge scale does not work?

Something that also puzzles me. Why are people afraid to send a bronze brush through a barrel, but think nothing of pushing CLR through it?