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Advanced Marksmanship tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

It's all about how crisp and fluid your trigger pull is.
You'll have to image a butter knife (warm) moderately paced cutting from the standing bar of butter down towards the bottom.....
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aggiesig</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">generally it begins with the finger placed on the trigger where it indeed is relaxed, where ever that may be. Of course, I guess they could be told to place their finger on the trigger using other terms, possibly telling them to place the finger on the trigger where it's not comfortable. Tip, pad, joint, if it does not complement the mechanics, there will be a problem. Maybe in the end, it's not about comfort, but it's a good place to start. </div></div>

generally no. I learned trigger placement from playing in band in 6th grade, you can manipulate the keys on instruments much more effectively from a "C" shaped hand position where you get a truer 90 degree engagement of the keys. The same things holds true for firearms, the person who finger fucks a 1911 by "naturally" putting their second joint into the trigger guard will never shot as well as an individual who puts their first pad on the trigger shoe at a 90 degree angle from the axis of trigger pull forming a "C" with their finger. They will apply less force to pull the trigger, and they will be able to operate it more efficiently, and everything else being the same more accurately.</div></div>

O.K., thanks for showing me how to do it. Your "hold true" statements however don't hold true. The relationship between shooter, gun, and ground is as unique to the design of the firearm, as it is to the build of the shooter, when the idea is to transfer the stability of the ground into the position. Finger position on an AR for shooter X might be quite divergent from a proper finger position on a 1911. What is not unique however is pulling the trigger in a manner that does not disturb aim, as this concept is mental not physical. This concept is "generally" described as SMOOTH. </div></div>

I think I've found your SOP it goes something like this:

distract and digress...

time to real you back into my point.

regardless if you are shooting a blunderbuss, AR, Glock, whatever.

I'm saying that you can obtain a SMOOTHER, MORE DIRECT, TRIGGER PULL by engaging the trigger with your finger at a point as far from hand as practical. Thus the first pad, when you go to the joint it removes one more hinge for your trigger engagement to move on thus removing some of your ability to pull straight back, creating more of a camming action to your trigger squeezing movement.

The trigger is mechanical and moves one direction a fixed distance, your finger is not mechanical, and to get your finger to apply force in that identical direction, without applying any force in other directions is best done with the use of all your joints. NOT IN WHATEVER POSITION IS INITIALLY COMFORTABLE WHEN YOU HOLD THE GUN(your initial point that I a trying to refute and you are trying to divorce). Because most beginners idea of comfortable comes from barefoot Bruce Wilis in Die Hard, and not from any real accuracy guru preaching Natural Point of Aim
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aggiesig</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aggiesig</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">generally it begins with the finger placed on the trigger where it indeed is relaxed, where ever that may be. Of course, I guess they could be told to place their finger on the trigger using other terms, possibly telling them to place the finger on the trigger where it's not comfortable. Tip, pad, joint, if it does not complement the mechanics, there will be a problem. Maybe in the end, it's not about comfort, but it's a good place to start. </div></div>

generally no. I learned trigger placement from playing in band in 6th grade, you can manipulate the keys on instruments much more effectively from a "C" shaped hand position where you get a truer 90 degree engagement of the keys. The same things holds true for firearms, the person who finger fucks a 1911 by "naturally" putting their second joint into the trigger guard will never shot as well as an individual who puts their first pad on the trigger shoe at a 90 degree angle from the axis of trigger pull forming a "C" with their finger. They will apply less force to pull the trigger, and they will be able to operate it more efficiently, and everything else being the same more accurately.</div></div>

O.K., thanks for showing me how to do it. Your "hold true" statements however don't hold true. The relationship between shooter, gun, and ground is as unique to the design of the firearm, as it is to the build of the shooter, when the idea is to transfer the stability of the ground into the position. Finger position on an AR for shooter X might be quite divergent from a proper finger position on a 1911. What is not unique however is pulling the trigger in a manner that does not disturb aim, as this concept is mental not physical. This concept is "generally" described as SMOOTH. </div></div>

I think I've found your SOP it goes something like this:

distract and digress...

time to real you back into my point.

regardless if you are shooting a blunderbuss, AR, Glock, whatever.

I'm saying that you can obtain a SMOOTHER, MORE DIRECT, TRIGGER PULL by engaging the trigger with your finger at a point as far from hand as practical. Thus the first pad, when you go to the joint it removes one more hinge for your trigger engagement to move on thus removing some of your ability to pull straight back, creating more of a camming action to your trigger squeezing movement.

The trigger is mechanical and moves one direction a fixed distance, your finger is not mechanical, and to get your finger to apply force in that identical direction, without applying any force in other directions is best done with the use of all your joints. NOT IN WHATEVER POSITION IS INITIALLY COMFORTABLE WHEN YOU HOLD THE GUN(your initial point that I a trying to refute and you are trying to divorce). Because most beginners idea of comfortable comes from barefoot Bruce Wilis in Die Hard, and not from any real accuracy guru preaching Natural Point of Aim</div></div>

Once again, thanks for showing me how to do it. I think you are, however, limiting the possibilities for SMOOTH, with your absolutes regarding techniques. At any rate, how's your technique workin' out for ya. You have nothing in your profile that would suggest what you profess is gospel on the matter, that's to say, what you apply can actually get the best results. My technique for SMOOTH has helped me get an HM rating in LR, as well as a DR badge. How bout you? Also, what I teach, is indeed doctrine for Service Rifle. It comes from the USAMU, not my notions on the matter but, straight from the SDM/TTT curriculum.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

RIght before SHOT an USAMU Instructor who is now at 1st Bat was at Rifles Only and Jacob took the time to instruct him in the benefits of having the finger at a 90 and he immediately saw the light. I wish I remember the quotes, but he was amazed how well he shot versus how he was doing it before. His downrange results were instantly improved.

He is familiar with Charles and while he understand the doctrine taught at AMU, he said what they teach doesn't translate well to what we are doing, but we do compliments his experience so well that he truly impressed by the end results. It made him a better more accurate shooter, coming off a long time teaching for the Army.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Once again, thanks for showing me how to do it. I think you are, however, limiting the possibilities for SMOOTH, with your absolutes regarding techniques. At any rate, how's your technique workin' out for ya. You have nothing in your profile that would suggest what you profess is gospel on the matter, that's to say, what you apply can actually get the best results. My technique for SMOOTH has helped me get an HM rating in LR, as well as a DM badge. How bout you? Also, what I teach, is indeed doctrine for Service Rifle. It comes from the USAMU, not my notions on the matter but, straight from the SDM/TTT curriculum. </div></div>

Thank you for the acronym lesson. It really validates your point. On the other hand, your digression to personal attacks validates mine.

This is a tactical long range rifle forum, so alot of my acronyms, rankings, match histories from NRA bullseye and USPSA/IPSC don't apply around here, much like prior discussions have lent others on the forum to question the relevancy of your accolades. Furthermore, Some of your awards haven't been awarded by the Military since the 50's making it very difficult for me to have acquired such awards in my 28 short years on this earth, even more difficult since I have never served in the Military (Yes I do capitalize the word Military because of my respect for our Service Members serving at home and abroad, so don't interpret my reference as patronization towards you or them)...

I have no doubts that you can hit what you aim at, I just have doubts as to some of the techniques to have advocated and your ability to carry on a linear discussion without changing course every time one of your fallacies is pointed out.

Have I been wrong before??? yup, Will I do it again??? I'm married so I'm pretty sure that's a given.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Here's another lesson. SDM is current, and so are the distinctions, not, as you said, not awarded since the 50's. Oh, one more thing, perhaps you have not heard, all shooting is the same, rifle, pistol, or shotgun. It matters not what you're shooting with, or the platform. It's all about understanding where the bore is pointed, and firing without disturbing aim. Everything else supports those two concepts. Finally, you're here advising folks how it's done; and yet, you have no credentials to indicate you know anything about it. That's what I meant when I said, thanks for showing me how to do it. What's is obvious, you don't know much about it, and it shows.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My technique for SMOOTH has helped me get an HM rating in LR, as well as a DM badge. </div></div>

You referenced DM, which in my book means Distinguished Marksman, which I believe was discontinued as an award in 1958? If it means something else, wonderful... Maybe one day I'll find the proper venue to compete at that discipline and attain your stature in the world,

Regardless, your qualifications were never called into question, just some of your "advice". If you hide your bad advice behind acronyms and accolades good for you.

[/trying to reason with those who refuse to be reasoned with]
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

I'm calling into question your qualifications. And, I believe it is you offering "bad" advice. That's always the impression left by those offering advice when their knowledge, and skill have not yet produced a result which can be appreciated by any having an interest in the matter.

Now, here's another lesson for you. There are 3 elements to a steady position. One of these is muscular relaxation. Relaxation equals comfort. There are 5 factors to a steady position. One of these is firing hand placement. Shooting an AR style rifle, the hand should be placed high on the grip, with a firm handshake grip. The trigger finger should be placed naturally on the trigger. Naturally equals comfort. Proper placement of the firing hand on the grip allows the trigger finger to be moved straight to the rear without disturbing aim.

The technique described is one which is proper for the AR. It should be obvious to all that hand size and shooting position, as well as the geometry of the trigger/grip relationship will require adjustment of the firing hand as required to get the best results with any firearm.

The idea is to be able to pull the trigger SMOOTHLY. And, since trigger control is a mental concept, most any size hand and firearm ergonomic can be accommodated with conscious thought about the matter and experimentation.