Advanced Marksmanship tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Don't confuse fundementals with technique. Shooter's come in all shapes and sizes. The fundementals are the same for all, not techniques. The idea is SMOOTH, and, generally it begins with the finger placed on the trigger where it indeed is relaxed, where ever that may be. Of course, I guess they could be told to place their finger on the trigger using other terms, possibly telling them to place the finger on the trigger where it's not comfortable. Tip, pad, joint, if it does not complement the mechanics, there will be a problem. Maybe in the end, it's not about comfort, but it's a good place to start.

 

[Rifles Only]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

If your technique does not allow the fundamental to be followed, then there is a problem.
I will take straight back over smooth any day. Straight allows there not to be any lateral movement in the system. That is key.
You can be as "smooth" as glass, but if the smooth is canking right of left, it is not good for long range accuracy.
I want my lateral movement downrange to be a factor of the wind, that I can solve. If I am introducing lateral at the gun, I am doubling my problem.
On occasion, everyone will slap the trigger. This is a fact. If the hand position will only allow movement of the trigger straight to the rear, the consequence of the slap is minimized.
Comfort is not a good place to start, because you will have to go back and train to be correct.
Correct is a good place to start, because, with repetition, correct becomes comfortable.
It is exactly the same as with any skill set.
Take driving.
When you first start out, there is not one comfortable thing about it. However, with proper instruction in sound driving techniques, what was once uncomfortable becomes comfortable.
There is no voodoo to this. It can be learned by anyone provided they have sound instruction. Instruction that follows common sense. Common sense tells me that straight back on the trigger trumps all.
I can cite numerous examples of why it is so important, but let it suffice to say that they payoff is enormous.
I will ask some questions:
Is your target still in your scope's sight picture after recoil, or does your gun jump to the right or left?
If your gun jumps, can you tell me what causes that?
When the weapon fires, the bullet goes one way and recoil goes the opposite.
Where does any lateral movement come from?
It comes from the shooter. Either they introduced an angle at the shoulder pocket or the trigger.
Recoil will exploit any weakness. Angles are a weakness. Remove the angles.
Get straight and press straight.
If you can see the result of your own shot downrange, you are doing it right. That team mate you have may actually have to be pulling security or any number of other jobs that will not allow them to call your shot for you.

 

[sinister]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Smooth refers to making the rifle go off without disturbing the sight picture and lay of the gun. You can jerk a trigger straight back.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Smooth refers to making the rifle go off without disturbing the sight picture and lay of the gun. You can jerk a trigger straight back.</div></div>

Thanks Dave, I don't think I was ever clear on that.I assumed it was understood by all here.

 

[Rifles Only]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

I can't speak for everyone, but I am well aware of what a smooth trigger press is.

 

[seanmyhre]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

This is about pistol shooting, but it's exactly whats being discussed. Disregard the gripping of the pistol, and everything else applies.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Sterling,

Let me hear you debate Todd on this... cause he hits on all the key points we're making, so he must be teaching it wrong, especially when he mentions the "C" word, you know <span style="text-decoration: underline">Comfort</span>, and how that's not the right thing to do.

20 years behind in technique, ouch that has to sting a little.

Thanks Friday, I think it makes an excellent point in all this, which is why I specifically asked about Sterling's Pistol.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SA_Friday</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

This is about pistol shooting, but it's exactly whats being discussed. Disregard the gripping of the pistol, and everything else applies.</div></div>

Grip cannot be disregarded as it is the basis of pistol shooting, effecting both sight alignment and trigger control. And what is the everything else? Are you talking about the statement made about placing the pad of the finger on the trigger? It's an awesome video, but does not bolster Franks argument. If I shot my rack grade AR with the first pad of my finger on the trigger, rather than hooking it with second pad, which is natural for me, I would not be able to pull the trigger without frequently disturbing aim. So, while all shooting is the same, properly point the firearm and pull the trigger without disturbing aim, attempting to claim a good pistol technique is universal to rifle shooting too is absurd.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

If your technique does not allow the fundamental to be followed, then there is a problem.
I will take straight back over smooth any day. Straight allows there not to be any lateral movement in the system. That is key.
You can be as "smooth" as glass, but if the smooth is canking right of left, it is not good for long range accuracy.
I want my lateral movement downrange to be a factor of the wind, that I can solve. If I am introducing lateral at the gun, I am doubling my problem.
On occasion, everyone will slap the trigger. This is a fact. If the hand position will only allow movement of the trigger straight to the rear, the consequence of the slap is minimized.
Comfort is not a good place to start, because you will have to go back and train to be correct.
Correct is a good place to start, because, with repetition, correct becomes comfortable.
It is exactly the same as with any skill set.
Take driving.
When you first start out, there is not one comfortable thing about it. However, with proper instruction in sound driving techniques, what was once uncomfortable becomes comfortable.
There is no voodoo to this. It can be learned by anyone provided they have sound instruction. Instruction that follows common sense. Common sense tells me that straight back on the trigger trumps all.
I can cite numerous examples of why it is so important, but let it suffice to say that they payoff is enormous.
I will ask some questions:
Is your target still in your scope's sight picture after recoil, or does your gun jump to the right or left?
If your gun jumps, can you tell me what causes that?
When the weapon fires, the bullet goes one way and recoil goes the opposite.
Where does any lateral movement come from?
It comes from the shooter. Either they introduced an angle at the shoulder pocket or the trigger.
Recoil will exploit any weakness. Angles are a weakness. Remove the angles.
Get straight and press straight.


No matter how the finger is placed on the trigger the trigger will always go straight back. Disturbance of aim is about the conflict between the mechanics of the trigger and the mechanics of the finger. Since, as you said, "the rifle does not give a shit about comfort", the shooter must place the finger on the trigger in a manner which complements the mechanics of the trigger and not the other way around. A very good place to start is with what is indeed comfortable for the shooter, as what is comfortable will likely be correct. From there, I suggest what to try only if trigger control is a problem for said shooter. If the shooter uses an unorthodox technique and still gets the job done I'm not going to tell him he's doing it wrong.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Wow,

Just wow... I have a very detailed response but I feel it will be lost in this debate.

 

[Tactical]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Col. Dave, thanks I will have to check that trigger out. I am attempting to switch to 40X action to save weight in FTR class from Barnard but miss that great trigger.

On the great Trigger Debate its like reading a map. Several ways to get there and as long as results are good no need to pull over and smack the kids. There is always an 80% main way to accomplish a job and then the other 20% has to complicate things.

 

[seanmyhre]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SA_Friday</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

This is about pistol shooting, but it's exactly whats being discussed. Disregard the gripping of the pistol, and everything else applies.</div></div>

Grip cannot be disregarded as it is the basis of pistol shooting, effecting both sight alignment and trigger control. And what is the everything else? Are you talking about the statement made about placing the pad of the finger on the trigger? It's an awesome video, but does not bolster Franks argument. If I shot my rack grade AR with the first pad of my finger on the trigger, rather than hooking it with second pad, which is natural for me, I would not be able to pull the trigger without frequently disturbing aim. So, while all shooting is the same, properly point the firearm and pull the trigger without disturbing aim, attempting to claim a good pistol technique is universal to rifle shooting too is absurd. </div></div>
Forgive me, the newbie, if I go with Lowlight on this one. Personally, the above is irrationally arguementative. This thread is about pulling the trigger on a firearm, not gripping a pistol. The techniques are universal throughout rifle, pistol, and shotgun. You jerk it, you miss.

Sorry to hear about your AR trigger...

 

[sinister]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Mike, I didn't know F-Tactical had a weight limit.

The CG is a very good trigger. Next best would be an Anschutz with a Briley 700 adaptor (it's what our Running Target guys used before it was dropped as an Olympic sport. Those 40Xs and non-Barnard Palma rifles will also use these. I went with a Jewell on 700s instead as it's cheaper and simple. My Paramount Palma rifle also has a wonderful trigger).

The trigger shoe is adjustable.

Swing/Paramount:

 

[Musicman]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

I was wondering how everybody else shot "other" weapons.....If I grip the ar with my full tight grip which feels comfortable and secure i could easily get my 1st joint contacting the trigger... so does this pad technique apply to shorter ranges as well? good shooting = good shooting I guess..... is it consistent vs correct?

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Re trigger control for your AR: 1. Trigger control is the skillful manipulation of the trigger which causes the rifle to fire without disturbing sight alignment or sight picture. 2. Controlling the trigger is a mental process, while pulling the trigger is a mechanical process. 3. Trigger control can be summed up in one word SMOOTH. 4. For the AR a high firm handshake grip is essential for trigger control. 5. This high firm handshake grip along with allowing finger to rest naturally across the trigger will ensure that the trigger is mechanically moving to the rear.

These are not my notions but those of the best shooters on the planet today.

 

[tullius]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Also I wouldn't take the advice of the guy in the article. His method might work for him, digging his hand in to the second knuckle, but as stated above it is physically impossible to pull anything back straight using the knuckle that far dug in. Big hand or otherwise -- the body is not made to work that way. He is probably what we call a good - bad shooter.</div></div>

The guy who wrote that article must be a very good-bad shooter: he won the National Trophy Individual Rifle Match this year, among other things.

I've noticed many perennial top shooters (AMU & others) use the same trigger control that he advocates in the article. Their results indicate they somehow all get the trigger back without disturbing proper sight alignment & sight picture. It must be physically possible, and perhaps preferable on an AR platform, if all these guys are doing it so consistently..

 

[Tactical]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Dave, yeah, its 18.24 lbs or so, give or take an oz. Thats rifle, scope and bipod.

George built me an RPA that tore up the matches but darn thing eventually had to beat closed because of the weird spring set up. Never saw a rifle shoot better than that RPA.

George built me a Barnard that I used alot last year. Barrel died on me and I ended up rebarrelling it with a 1x13 twist just before 2010 Worlds and it just did not shoot as well at 1000 yards with 155 Scenars as the prior 1x11 twists did. It kicked rump at 800 and 900 but groups would not hold at 1000. I need to get George to get the new 1x11 twist installed for me. I am working with several different rifle configurations and really want to be set long in advance of 2013 World Championships.

In short messing with everything now. Well except my trigger finger. That remains a good clean pull as straight to rear as I can muster.

 

[WesP]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

well finger placement being as important as it is...when will the major stock makers develop and adjustanble palm area for their products. something that can be adjusted out to ensure the finger will naturally fall at a right angle. most other things on modern stocks are adjustable, why not the palm swell?

 

[keithtb1]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

While I tend to agree with many of the arguments both sides make on trigger pull and technique, there are some points to make on both arguments. Ive taken less than adequate shooters and with proper instruction on technique, position, grip, stance etc. they have left a better shooter than they arrived. Once in a while, not usually the norm, a shooter will show up and manage to have perfected his own technique, while unorthodox, and have the ability to shoot quite well with his own method. While I will attempt to correct some of his technique, and request he attempts the "norm" I am not so rigid that he shoots our way if his is more affective for him.
Another thing to note is how much does the shooter shoot? If he is a beginning shooter and his technique is poor, correcting his way of shooting will be overly stressed to correct his style since most shooting is taught and not natural IMHO. Getting to them before they ingrain themselves in poor habits will get them to where they want or in our case HAVE to be to qualify and carry a rifle,pistol,shotgun etc.
One last thing to note, on some of the world class shooters that are out there that we strive to be and compare all else to. I've had the opportunity to meet some great shooters and been amazed at some of the things they could do with their weapon of choice. Then you take away their highly modified multi-dollar weapon systems, with their special triggers, perfectly measured stocks, super duper rail systems and they are not nearly the shooter they thought they were. Place a store bought out of the box pistol, rifle etc. in their hands and then you get to see how much is technique and how much are bells and whistles. Ive always believed a good shooter, who shoots often, and works at proper shooting techniques, should be able to accurately shoot any weapon system.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Musicman</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I was wondering how everybody else shot "other" weapons.....If I grip the ar with my full tight grip which feels comfortable and secure i could easily get my 1st joint contacting the trigger... so does this pad technique apply to shorter ranges as well? good shooting = good shooting I guess..... is it consistent vs correct? </div></div>

My hands are medium sized. I prefer 1911s with high cuts under the trigger guard, a flat MSH and thin grips - I use the pad only. A Glock 17 - I need a slight mod to the grip (roll it around slightly further right), every once in a while I will boot the mount and end up with only half of the tip of my finger on that quasi safety bar thing on the trigger - I still get the shots off but it is like a giant mental flag. G21s - really gotta roll it right. ARs and CQB - still use the pad but b/c my reach is short and b/c I would rather slap the trigger for speed (finger never comes off but allows for full travel of the trigger), than game the reset difference between my blaster and my carbine - it is not a straight pull - there is some lateral force being imparted. With a pistol I am concerned about A zone or even A + C zone hits as fast a possible from 50 yrds and in; with a carbine that stretches to 100 and in. So if it isn't a straight pull - I don't care - it ain't that hard to make that level of accuracy at speed. More importantly to me, I need a grip that allows me to get the pad of my finger on the trigger but still allows me to have thumb / web of hand position that yields positive control of the weapon in any circumstance. I can only really have both (straight pull and super positive control) with a 1911 (or a Hi Power) set up the way I like them. Based on distance, time, and required level of accuracy - I will adjust my grip so as to ensure a straight pull. General answer to your question - the pad is used for every weapon I fire.

When I shoot a bolt gun - the area of my palm just below my fingers is off the PG such that I can get my hand rolled around far enough on the right side to get a straight pull. In fact when I shake hands with the A5 my knuckles are rolled forward to the point were they are parallel to the bore.


Good luck

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SA_Friday</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: SA_Friday</div><div class="ubbcode-body">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ysa50-plo48

This is about pistol shooting, but it's exactly whats being discussed. Disregard the gripping of the pistol, and everything else applies.</div></div>

Grip cannot be disregarded as it is the basis of pistol shooting, effecting both sight alignment and trigger control. And what is the everything else? Are you talking about the statement made about placing the pad of the finger on the trigger? It's an awesome video, but does not bolster Franks argument. If I shot my rack grade AR with the first pad of my finger on the trigger, rather than hooking it with second pad, which is natural for me, I would not be able to pull the trigger without frequently disturbing aim. So, while all shooting is the same, properly point the firearm and pull the trigger without disturbing aim, attempting to claim a good pistol technique is universal to rifle shooting too is absurd. </div></div>
Forgive me, the newbie, if I go with Lowlight on this one. Personally, the above is irrationally arguementative. This thread is about pulling the trigger on a firearm, not gripping a pistol. The techniques are universal throughout rifle, pistol, and shotgun. You jerk it, you miss.

Sorry to hear about your AR trigger... </div></div>

First, grip and trigger pull cannnot be separated, the concepts are dependent upon each other, and second, although all shooting is the same, techniques for the best outcome could be as unique as the firearm/shooter. One size does not fit all, nevertheless, the shooter adapts, he makes himself fit the firearm, or the firearm fit him. Interestingly, I am more comfortable in a loop sling supported prone position with my AR based Service Rifle than I am with a Match Rifle [M700 in McMillan Prone Stock] with a fully adjusted stock, hand-stop, and Match sling.

 

[pappy42]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

One year at the Nationals, a shooter of my acquaintence had a team mate slam a vehicle door on his trigger finger.

To keep the swelling down, he walked around between relays with his trigger finger a cup of ice. He won everything in sight including the individual.

By the middle of the week, half of the shooters there were walking around with their trigger finger in a cup of ice!

Probably a point in this ramble somewhere.

 

[sinister]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

The principles of marksmanship to execute the perfect shot, whether rifle, pistol, carbine, shotgun, submachinegun, 120mm smoothbore, etc. are the same.

Adjusting individual ergonomics are technique.

The Remington 700 action and bolt are the common American standard around which the (American) human being adjusts.

There are literally dozens of trigger combinations -- some of which allow for trigger finger length variations. There are hundreds of different stock, butt pad/length of pull, and comb height variations.

This site and this particular (advanced marksmanship) forum addresses aspects of mechanics and learned skills.

Adjusting one's technique for a fixed or generic 700V or PSS (or M1 or M16) is the human accomodating to a fixed, generic factory rifle with no alterations. Even with something like an Eagle stock pack the shooter is adjusting himself to the tool vice changing the weapon to fit.

It is neither bad nor good -- it is what it is.

My trigger finger draw may not be the same length as a teammate's, as simple as not being able to wear the same gloves as he.

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

I was dry firing in front of a mirror this week and came to realize that I was not consistent in my straight pull. @ 50% of my pulls showed a reticle bounce while in front the mirror.

I have a tendency to favor the right and I got to looking at my finger and really feeling my trigger.

Two things became obvious that I had not fully considered before

A - The pad of the finger is a progressive slope - thinnest at the end of the (tip) distal phalange - getting fatter and then evening out at the end of distal / beginning of the intermediate phanlange. It is squishy and hard to focus pressure into one point.

B - The serrated trigger has an ever so slight center ridge

If I use the pad of the finger only and lay it across the width of the trigger I have variable geometry making contact the trigger - and it likely changes a fraction during the actual pull.

Secondly if I hold my hand as if I were holding the stock (space between my fingers and palm to resemble the PG) and hold my finger as I normally would such that the pad covers the width of the trigger, and I watch the movement of the finger making the pull, there is no way I can make that motion without imparting some lateral movement.

However if I roll my hand even further forward and use the actual end of the distol (the actual end of the finger) now I have a firm focal point for pressure on to the center of the trigger. When I do the empty hand (replicate the PG in my hand) grip and make that rearward press with my finger - now that entire motion is in a straight line.

I have played with it some in front of the mirror (@ 250 dry fires) and while not conclusive - at this point I am substantially more consistent in getting a perfectly straight pull with absolutely no reticle bounce. Conversely I am about 50% with the pad method in front of the mirror. The bounce can range from very slight wiggle but the cross hairs are still on POA to a literal jump off of POA if I really lean to one side or the other.

I ran out and shot 3 three rounds groups today (all the time I had) using the end of the distol. It feels a little strange but I can not argue with the groups.

The prime advantage to me is the ability to focus the force into the center of the trigger.

Thoughts?

Good luck

ETA - did some more dry fire today. While think this has the ability to produce a true straight pull it is awkward esp trying to go fast with follow up. I have gone back to using the whole pad, choked up a little on the PG and now any wiggle is related to uneven should tension.

 

[Only10x]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

tag

 

[diriel]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

@Lowlight,

I was taught to shoot and reload by an Army Green Viet Nam Sniper. I count myself as being a very lucky man. To this day, he can still out shoot me. However, I am well above average.

If I were to ever decide to pony up for training, Your name would be right up at the top of the list. Watching you try to 'educate' people in this thread has really impressed me. It is obvious you really do work at Teaching People to Shoot.

For those who obviously think they know, you don't. Trigger control, trigger control, and Trigger Control!! Use the pad of your finger, and pull straight back. Period! Do not *EVER* presume to tell me a sniper from the Viet Nam era does not know his shit!!

Ignorance is curable, stupidity is not.

Happy trigger Yanking

 

[BigBrother]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

As already mentioned, this topic is becoming a perennial favorite on here. This was the one where I chimed in with diagrams and explanations:

http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1384996&page=1

And where Lowlight made his video.

There was a question I posed there that was never sufficiently answered, in my opinion, by the most vocal opponents from the other camp (namely Lowlight and 9H). Here it is again:

Every other sport has noticeable variances in how its athletes perform the same tasks, and each excels with what fits. Why do you think shooting is any different? You have sprinters who run like ducks, pitchers who do their own unique windups, boxers with unorthodox stances. I'm sure if you handed a baseball bat to me (average build), Lowlight ("petite"

), and some huge dude, our grips would be different, our swing would be different, our whole form would be different.

After Lowlight's video (which showed a difference in 0.5 MOA between my technique and his), I responded that he only did half of what I explained (finger placement but not hand grip). He answered that he couldn't do what I had shown in the photos because the size of his hands made it impossible for him to do so. I'm tempted to rest my case right there.

My credentials? Nothing out of this world. I consistently hold 0.5 MOA out to 600y (as far as I've tried) with my stock 700P and my humble little 10X Mark 4, shooting factory loads.

But, and this is the key, my belief is held by others who have walked the walk. Sterling is among them. My local coach (who has all the ribbons and NRA designations you could hope for) is also much more of a holistic, make it work for you type of shooter.

What I find amazing is that the orthodoxy guys on here get so absolutely livid and defensive about it, refusing to buy into the idea that perhaps there are different strokes for different folks. Go watch some underwater footage of Olympic swimmers- nobody's fly looks the same, and if you tried to force everyone into one pattern, you'd have a bunch of guys neutering their potential in the name of the "fundamentals" of biophysics.

Frank says "As well, firing a gun is not a natural act, so how can we naturally gravitate to something we weren't designed to do?" With all due respect, that's hogwash. If that were the case, why are new stocks built every year trying to maximize shooters' comfort in a new way? Why do people choose a grip like this:

for their AR over the standard one? You make it seem as if shooting should be an act of penance that you must not be comfortable performing.

I'll say again, you show me a sport that requires any contact with a physical object, and I'll show you as many ways to do it as there are champions.

Finger tip is good for many. It's not an absolute.

Many people on here prefer vertical grip stocks over the curve of traditional hunting ones (like the HS Precision the M24 is built on). If our hands were all built the same, there would have been one identical shape proven most comfortable and that would have been that. But just as you may not shoot as well with one type of stock (some hate AI, for example), so too may others not be as straight back or smooth with your exact finger position. Even Frank changed his placement slightly when moving to the AR in those shots. Heavens no! The master practicing such heresy?

There's one last thing I'll say about this, admittedly sending it into the realm of religious debate

. A true believer in a faith has 1 shot at being right and about 5000 at being wrong. An agnostic merely says "maybe yes, maybe no". All guys like Sterling and I are saying is that for tip placers, it very likely is the best way. But there are others. The purists are saying it's their way or nothing. What's more likely? That tip placement is one successful option, or that everyone not practicing tip placement is wrong? Think about it.

 

[diriel]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

I will bow out here, as I refuse to feed the trolls.

Happy Trigger Yanking,
P.S. Think on this: some of the best actual shooters on earth are from the Viet Nam era. This is something that can be researched.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: diriel</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will bow out here, as I refuse to feed the trolls.

Happy Trigger Yanking,
P.S. Think on this: some of the best actual shooters on earth are from the Viet Nam era. This is something that can be researched.</div></div>

Trolls, how do you make that determination? Regarding your comment about "best actual shooters", I did some research and found in 1965 about 95 military and civilian shooters earned the Distinguished Rifleman badge, including Carlos Hathcock. Last year, about 87 military and civilian shooters won the distinction. I don't think the research reveals much of anything other than every year the program inspires shooters to reach very high plateaus of good shooting. BTW, how's your good shooting coming along?

 

[kraigWY]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Period! Do not *EVER* presume to tell me a sniper from the Viet Nam era does not know his shit!!</div></div>

That may have worked for your Vietnam Era Sniper, but it may not work for everyone, people are differant.

I bought my M1A from Wayne Young, he and Shelly Lamb, got me into shooting. Both were in the AMU team that went to Vietnam to set up the sniper programs, both were snipers, Wayne was the team Armor (I think Lamb was too, I don't really remember.

One thin I remember from both, dern near every time I asked a question. WHAT EVER IS COMFORTABLE FOR YOU.

I went to the AMU Sniper School in 1978, again they stressed Comfort in adapting positions including placement of the trigger finger. The same is taught in todays AMU/CMP's DM programs and the CMP GSM Master Instructor programs.

It's not a new concept, Cpt Crossman taught the same thing when HP shooters were shooting '03, But its not a old consept either, its taught TODAY.

What we are failing to understand, when people talk about comfort (ref: trigger placement) they say what is comfortable, allows for SMOOTH trigger breaks, while NOT DISTURBING SIGHT ALINGEMENT AND SIGHT PICTURE.

No body is saying get comfortable, pull the trigger regardless of what it does to sight alingment and sight picture. Comfort,or relaxation while shooting is "A" fundmental, not "THE" fundmental. No fundamental should offset or negate other fundamentals.

 

[BigBrother]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Well said Kraig. I wanna emphasize again something from the end of my post which yours now highlights as well- I may one day switch to tip placement on some guns, I may one day switch to tip placement on all guns, or I may remain doing what I'm doing. None of those outcomes violates what we (Sterling, Kraig, myself, etc.) are trying to say - that the proof is in the results of the shooter and his/her comfort and repeatability in doing so. From the signatures it's clear that there have been plenty of X's hit and plenty of living targets no longer so as a result of following this approach. Lessons and principles are good to build on- but consistency and finding your fit should be the end goal.

All, of course, in my most humble of opinions

.

Happy shooting all.

 

[diriel]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

@KraigWY,

Well said. I agree with what you say sir. One thing Mark always emphasized was comfortable, and repeatable, technique.

For me, he taught both pistol, and rifle. For pistol, trigger control was absolutely critical. If I grabbed up to my finger joint with a pistol, my groups would pull right. If I engaged the trigger with the tip of my finger, my groups went left. Assuming of course I was shooting right handed. I practiced both right, and left handed.

As you can see what really set me off, and seeing RED ZONE, was the comment about shooting knowledge being out dated. Sure, equipment changes, and operational tactics change and adapt. Fundamentals have not changed much. Either you can make the shot, or you can not make it. Details, and more details. But a lot of them are Fundamental Details.

I was never told to purposely make myself uncomfortable. However, I was put into some damned uncomfortable places, and positions, and told to Make The Shot. Period. Two different things, but something some folks may, or may not, realize. You of course know all too well. As for me? I have never seen combat, I was just lucky enough to have a Viet Nam era sniper teach me a thing or two about shooting.

Add to that, my grandfather was a decorated World war 1 sniper. He died when I was 14. I only ever got to spend about a year with him, it was him who started my interest in shooting. Even near to legally blind he could still shoot...
So, here my 3 cousins and 2 of there friends were, in northern New Mexico. About 175 yards away several deer suddenly started crossing the gap between some trees. This gap was maybe 50 yards across. They had been scared out by other hunters who had shot. Us 5 kids started blazing away. I stopped after only 3 shots, and turned to see where gramps was. About that time he calmly reaches for his 8mm Mauser, open sights on it. He takes one step forward, and casually brings the weapon up and fires. Care to guess how many deer we took home that day? Yeah, one. His. And he was near to legally blind.

I never forgot. As Mark worked on teaching me, I always remembered to Learn. For me? Heh, wind reading. It is something I still have to work at when I get the chance to go out and shoot beyond about 700 yards. Up to 700, my 6.5 swede mostly just ignores the wind, unless it is Really Blowing. I do not get the chance to go shooting with Mark much anymore. He has heart problems, AND, he works all over the US. He repairs CNC equipment. Business for him is booming these days.

Have a good one,
Gary

 

[Tburkes]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Here's my take on this whole discussion.

I've been shooting for years and could shoot okay.

It was when I started shooting in the last six years that I began getting into the more detailed aspects of marksmanship. Specifically it was when I started shooting the tactical matches when I found out I needed to get some instruction if I wanted to actually compete.

Before I started getting instruction I could lay down, get a natural point of aim and hit where I wanted most of the time. The big thing was that the rifle would jump off the target quite a bit, like sometimes as much as five mils of a jump. Not a big deal if you have plenty of time to get set up for your next shot, you just take your time getting set back up and getting that NPA again for the next shot. Things are different if you're in a timed stage and the clock is running, it takes up valuable time to reacquire the target and get the next shot off.

I got my instruction from Rifles Only, way before I ever started TAB GEAR and became good friends with Jacob and Lisa.

The instruction I got placed me in an uncomfortable position, straight behind the rifle, heels on the ground, elbows squared to the target, natural respiratory pause, trigger finger at 90 degrees to the bore, etc. Heck, it was almost painful getting into that position initially, and it was a lot of practice to just be able to hold my trigger finger consistently at a 90 degree angle without accidentally dropping the trigger while dry firing. I had to change the whole way my trigger hand contacts the rifle.

The thing is I could tell immediately things were coming together as far as me being more consistent on target. My sight picture wasn't jumping near as much as it used to be, maybe only a mil or two, but it was a consistent jump.

It's funny, but the more I practiced the less uncomfortable I was, weird how that works out. I've practiced that way enough now that it feels uncomfortable not to be in this position. I was still having the consistent jump off target though, about a mil or a little more. I couldn't figure it out. I mean I had Jacob, Frank, anyone, check my body to make sure I was straight behind the rifle. My position looked good, until Jacob layed down on the ground and watched my trigger finger. I was starting out good but would cank my finger off of 90 degrees as I was pressing it to the rear.

When I really started to concentrate on my trigger finger placement and follow through is when it started to come together. I could tell when I had a good straight trigger press because the reticle would hardly move. After recoil the point of aim would be less than a mil from the target. When I see the reticle jump more than that I know immediately that I've canked the trigger a little and give myself a mental note to concentrate on 90 degrees.

Sure there are times where your trigger finger may be out of whack a little due to a position, time constraint, or whatever, but then you know that the rest of the fundamentals are even that much more important for you to apply correctly to make the shot. You may have crappy position, maybe shooting over a stack of wood, or under a culvert where you can't be straight behind the rifle, then you realize how important a straight trigger press and a proper follow through is going to be. It's all about trading and indexing. If you have to trade a fundamental to make the shot, then you know that the rest of the fundamentals become even that much more important to making a successful impact.

Sure, you can lay behind the rifle with your body at a comfortable 45 degree angle and use the comfortable second joint of your finger to pull the trigger back at an angle, and hit the target. You can do this very consistently too to the point you may be really happy with the average moa you can hold out to whatever distance. But...I'll bet you have a pretty hard time reacquiring your sight picture to spot your own impact for a successful follow up shot since you've got no one spotting for you.

Yes, it would be pretty crazy of me to watch someone like Terry Cross shoot and try to change his form, considering how successful he's been shooting matches. Yes, it would be pretty dumb to take any of the world class athletes and try to change the way they perform that makes them successful.

When you've got a new swimmer, baseball player, basketball player, or shooter, starting out, you start with a proper foundation. You don't let the swimmer just do what feels good in the Butterfly position, you don't tell the baseball player to just stand in the batters box however's comfortable to you, or the shooter, "just lay down behind the rifle however you want" You start them off with proper fundamentals to build a foundation on. As they progress they'll then develop a method that works for them.

The methods that are used at Rifles Only work, and the discipline they teach is gunfighting, not target shooting where you've got plenty of time to get set back up for the next shot after looking at the target through your spotter. They teach the fundamentals in a way that will help a shooter be able to spot his own impacts at any range and be able to deliver an accurate follow up shot within just a few seconds. There have been many many aar's from around the world that confirm and validate the methods that are being taught at Rifles Only by Jacob, Frank, Lindy, etc.

Like they say "if you haven't tried it don't knock it" It's worked very well for me, but more importantly than my success, it's working for a lot of young men around the world who are making it possible for us to be having this discussion.

YMMV.

 

[diriel]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

@TBurkes,

Well stated indeed.

Gary

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigBrother</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1384996&page=1

</div></div>

I need to sign up for on line training....

I finally noticed in the vid the position of the other fingers on the PG when Frank is using the pad - that makes sense.

Frank - have you ever done the same test rolling your hand far enough forward that you can use the true tip of your finger? I got great feedback on lateral forces being imparted and could feel the exact center of the trigger. From a kinesis standpoint - for a short distance (like a trigger press) your finger can move like a sewing machine needle - straight to the rear. I just found it very awkward to quickly reacquire that grip for a follow up shot.


Good luck

 

[Mo_Zam_Beek]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

TBurkes - thank you, I feel much better about the amount of movement I see. Is a MIL about normal or are some guys really getting it to fall exactly back to POA? And at what distance?



Good luck

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tburkes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Sure, you can lay behind the rifle with your body at a comfortable 45 degree angle and use the comfortable second joint of your finger to pull the trigger back at an angle, and hit the target. You can do this very consistently too to the point you may be really happy with the average moa you can hold out to whatever distance. But...I'll bet you have a pretty hard time reacquiring your sight picture to spot your own impact for a successful follow up shot since you've got no one spotting for you.



YMMV.</div></div>

Just for grins and giggles take your AR, I'm sure you have one, everybody does, and without support, other than bone, get into a prone position and dry fire, calling your shots. Then get back here with your thoughts about it. I would submit you will come to an understanding you cannot use the techniques you apply to your bolt gun. First, you will recognize, because the non-firing hand will be on the handguard, for both support as well as control, a straight position is not possible; and, second, you will become aware, because the AR's design will force grip and trigger finger placement to be very divergent from that which you described using with your bolt gun, pulling the trigger in the manner you are accustomed to will not get you SMOOTH even with the best mental management for trigger control.


All shooting is the same, the principles of marksmanship, and elements and factors of a steady position are the same for everyone with any firearm shooting from any position; yet, as alluded to by myself, Sinister, tullius, Kraig, BigBrother, Jhuskey, and others, the techniques to execute the firing task with a particular rifle design does not demand duplication of such techniques wheb shouldering another firearm type; and, in fact, when attempting such conformity, as you will clearly see, may thwart success, for a multitude of reasons, all related to getting a muscularly relaxed position.

 

[BigBrother]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Sterling, as you can imagine I enjoy your posts given our close opinion on the subject, but I do have to ask about your answer to the follow up shot issue. While I do the "comfort" approach and can make first hits very accurately, I do have to concede that I probably get torqued way more than the straight body guys and wind up with an off crosshair, requiring more time to adjust for the follow up. This is delving away from just the trigger finger, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this as well.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

When you have properly adjusted NPA, and are able to maintain control of the firearm until recoil has subsided you should be able to shoot a string of shots with very little adjustment of the body between shots, whether you are shooting staight with bipod, or straight leg or bent knee with or without artificial support.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> When you have properly adjusted NPA, and are able to maintain control of the firearm until recoil has subsided you should be able to shoot a string of shots with very little adjustment of the body between shots, whether you are shooting staight with bipod, or straight leg or bent knee with or without artificial support.</div></div>

Let me know how that works out for you.

I'd like to see you do it at an angle to the rifle with a bipod. As I have yet to see the student who can.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

You might want to read before you reply, I said straight with bipod. Do you have a problem with straight with bipod? Straight leg and bent knee refer to the prone position unsupported, or with sling support, where the non-firing hand grips the handguard. Shooting prone with a sling, or unsupported does not allow for a straight position, such as is possible when using a bipod rest; but, of course, you know that.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

You said, "whether you have"... that means, either or... bent leg also matters, because people with the <span style="font-style: italic">"little green army man syndrome'</span> are always off to an angle...

the introduction of angles will be exploited by recoil, it will follow the path of least resistance. With a sling you have that rocking motion straight to the rear, with a bipod you don't have that, thus the hop.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Not to mention you sort of avoided Big Brother's follow up question by falling back to service rifle and missing the point entirely.

They want to know about this with regards to heavy recoiling precision rifle, not a slung supported service rifle in 5.56. The context of the question. We see the same thing as you, sling up a long precision rifle, set your NPA and firing rocking back and forth on recoil and the rifle returns to positions. Yes... unless they pull the rifle off center with the trigger. But in a bipod supported prone this isn't the same.

We have also shown the lateral movement in the triggers, the shoe will move side to side for sure, causing it to effect the shot and the management of recoil. Which, playing around with the full grip, finger dug into the second knuckle with a larger hand. What he is doing is smothering the trigger and dampening the movement, unorthodox for sure, but I can see it working for him. You need a big enough hand to smother the entire trigger though. Technically he is dragging wood on the stock, but because of his hand size, he can prevent it from moving the rifle.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

What the poster wants to know is how to get the job done. I used the word "control" in my response as that's the answer to his question.

 

[BigBrother]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Lowlight, you mentioned my hand and how it works- this is a good point and brings me to another question. One of the reasons I tend toward certain grips that vary from the almost gentle, hands off approach I see here is because of the grips' natural shape (well at least with respect to my hands). To me, most grips- be they pistol, pistol-gripped rifle, or hunting style stock -lead me to a joystick-like grip by default.

Where I'm going with this is, I'm not fundamentally opposed to the finger pad at all- I just wonder why grips aren't made in more of a clamshell like shape. To see what I mean, try closing your hand like you would grab a sandwich or imitate a duckbill. This, to me, is the simplest and most natural way to get your pad moving at a perfectly straight angle without a bent joint in sight. Index pad to thumb pad would be another way to refer to it.

So it would make sense that if someone designed a grip that was laterally wide, again, like a clamshell, you'd have control combined with zero effort movement of the trigger finger. It would just be "squashing the sandwich", as it were, without any strain of a bent joint.

Instead, what we get almost across the board are coke bottle shaped grips that necessitate all sorts of unrelaxed positions of the hand. Think about it for a sec:

Fundamentally correct though his hand might be, what I see when I look at that rifle grip from an engineering standpoint is a device that's doing two jobs, the most important one rather poorly. It serves as a rotational and control mechanism for the whole rifle, while also serving as a resting place for that chunk of meat you have that's connected to your trigger finger while you fire. In that first role, with its round cylindrical shape, it does pretty well- think of any handle of a hammer, bat, etc.

But in that second, it's downright awful. Now I know this requires really breaking years of taking this shape for granted, but hear me out here. If it were designed solely to support your hand while you activated a trigger, what you'd probably get is no grip at all, and certainly no lever shaped vertical trigger for a bent finger to pull. What you would get might be a button running along the bottom that you could just push up with your index finger as your hand held the rifle. Or some other mechanism with a motion completely without rotation and in a totally neutral direction (maybe up/down isn't the best idea, but you get what I mean).

That's where my clamshell grip comes into play. It would tip the balance much closer to 50/50 in control of the gun vs. the firing hand support role that the grip needs to serve. I've wanted to build something like this for quite a while, probably for the standard AR grip framework, but haven't had the time or the equipment.

To recap, what you have here with traditional grips is essentially a bat handle for control combined with a role where the curve of the hand is your mortal enemy. Seems like a half-assed design to me. I know this flies in the face of how most of these are designed, but just think about it.

Squash that sandwich.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tburkes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Sure, you can lay behind the rifle with your body at a comfortable 45 degree angle and use the comfortable second joint of your finger to pull the trigger back at an angle, and hit the target. You can do this very consistently too to the point you may be really happy with the average moa you can hold out to whatever distance. But...I'll bet you have a pretty hard time reacquiring your sight picture to spot your own impact for a successful follow up shot since you've got no one spotting for you.



YMMV.</div></div>

Just for grins and giggles take your AR, I'm sure you have one, everybody does, and without support, other than bone, get into a prone position and dry fire, calling your shots. Then get back here with your thoughts about it. I would submit you will come to an understanding you cannot use the techniques you apply to your bolt gun. First, you will recognize, because the non-firing hand will be on the handguard, for both support as well as control, a straight position is not possible; and, second, you will become aware, because the AR's design will force grip and trigger finger placement to be very divergent from that which you described using with your bolt gun, pulling the trigger in the manner you are accustomed to will not get you SMOOTH even with the best mental management for trigger control.


All shooting is the same, the principles of marksmanship, and elements and factors of a steady position are the same for everyone with any firearm shooting from any position; yet, as alluded to by myself, Sinister, tullius, Kraig, BigBrother, Jhuskey, and others, the techniques to execute the firing task with a particular rifle design does not demand duplication of such techniques wheb shouldering another firearm type; and, in fact, when attempting such conformity, as you will clearly see, may thwart success, for a multitude of reasons, all related to getting a muscularly relaxed position.</div></div>


Sterling what can't we do with an AR...

Hmm, I think as Tony described, once you practice doing it this way, doing it any other just feels wrong, the same with people who don't want to get straight behind the rifle, to them that feels wrong.

Comfortable is a matter of perspective.

I'll admit when doing drills that are inside 50 yards that require me to move, come up and down fast, my finger gets out of position because my hand is small and I am manipulating the safety as soon as my sights are off or on the target, I have to angle my and to reach it, but otherwise... this is the same position I used when shooting slung up .22 with Leo. Straight back, sling, with a 90. Difference is, inside 50 they are shooting an 8" target in a combat format.

If you are teaching people with the potential of going into harms way and not teaching them to be straight behind the system you are doing them a dis-service because you are making them a bigger target downrange. As well it is very easy to drop in straight to knees, index, and then prone out to fire... getting straight up and moving forward.

In competition, do whatever floats your boat.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Big Brother, that is a terrible example to post, even Sterling will tell you he is muscling the system, and not using bone support.

The weapon should be over the elbow which is over the knee...

 

[BigBrother]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

LL, fair enough, Tony's shots prove the point just the same, if not better. I was looking for a classic shot where the hand has to be coming off the grip (thereby losing a bit of the pivoting control) and then bending back in at an otherwise unnatural angle for the hand. Tony's shots show that perfectly.

The rest of my post still stands, awaiting public scrutiny

.

 

[Lowlight]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

All I can say is, we went to a place in Aug, guys using 416s with 14.5"bbls, they took a Kyle Lamb class before with the 10.5" uppers and ours with the longer ones. We had them doing this, no complaints from any of them and with that crappy 70gr Barnes TSX ammo were moving to a position, dropping into the prone and hitting targets with the first round at 500m.

So, how valid it is, you guys can debate, but I know it is effective in the format we operate.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Try to get "straight" with an A2 fixed stock, not shooting slick.